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Old 2008-09-03, 05:49   Link #401
Klashikari
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You have to finish any route at least once to unlock this, except Rin mandatory bad end.
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Old 2008-09-03, 08:59   Link #402
eden13600
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Oh, alright.. Thanks for telling me that. By the way, I found the walkthrough for all the characters. 100% CG and Memories.
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Old 2008-09-03, 10:16   Link #403
Shiratamadango
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By the way, I found the walkthrough for all the characters. 100% CG and Memories.
Congratulations, eden! I need more time to collect them^^;
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Old 2008-09-04, 07:40   Link #404
Vegard Aune
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Great news for anime hopefuls.
Tonari no 801 chan got canceled which probably means Little Busters will be premiering after Haruhi S2?
Yes, that is pretty good to hear. The only reason I even had the slightest bit of interest in Tonari no 801-chan was because every single KyoAni-show I've seen is on my top 10-list. But Little Busters interests me because it's not only KyoAni that will most likely end up doing it, but also because Key seems to have some REALLY great story-writers. Though I can't say anything for sure about how good Little Busters is, as I've only played the demo that the translation-group put out. (Would play the full game if I knew japanese, though.)

But before we make ANY assumptions about Little Busters coming out after Haruhi 2, we first have to get a confirmation that Haruhi 2 will air after Clannad AS...
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Old 2008-09-06, 18:15   Link #405
kimchipride
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I have to ask something for the people that played this game...

Does it have sad arcs like the other Key works?
and
Among Kanon, Little Busters, Clannad, and Air, where does Little busters rank at?
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Old 2008-09-06, 18:32   Link #406
Klashikari
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basically, you can say LB is very "similar" to clannad in the content: big mix of "big fun and cute" but then, a sharp nakuge on the face.

I haven't yet continue the new arcs for the original heroines, but I heard the new Kudo is a real crying session, so...
It is very different from clannad in term of themes and characters, but the "structure" is the same: prologue/fun/big fun/trouble/drama/crying spike/heartwarming resolution.

I would however say that Saya's route is just a killer, and I'm quite puzzled why it doesn't have a "true happy end", nor why the hell you can only access it once...

Last edited by Klashikari; 2008-09-06 at 19:04.
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Old 2008-09-06, 22:45   Link #407
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I would however say that Saya's route is just a killer, and I'm quite puzzled why it doesn't have a "true happy end", nor why the hell you can only access it once...
Because she's not really supposed to be there? Her route is, for me, mildly amusing, but it just doesn't fit into the larger game setting and really the whole "fall-in love and then have sex" thing feels too fast and artificial. Of course, that's a flaw in most of the routes except Rin's (it is the only set of routes to have whose Rate of Advance in such matters seems natural), not to mention most H-games in general, but it is a new low even for Riki...

I suppose Kyousuke must have seen some value in her, so she can provide that ending to Riki to make him a bit "stronger", or he'll have used his "Gamemaster Authority" and squished her a lot sooner...
Spoiler:
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Old 2008-09-07, 02:10   Link #408
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I personally felt the other way around: considering how Saya's trial and predicament was done and the loop beforehand, I felt the romance was working properly though I agree that, from Riki's perspective, they could work better about his feelings.

The route itself was kinda on the better group for me, considering its panel of quirks and especially Saya's interactions which are really different from the usual key/LB heroine.

Spoiler for end saya route:


Ironically enough, I think that Rin was one of the weakest romance built in the heroine character as a starter. No matter how Rin had already feelings from ages ago, the execution wasn't that convincing especially the brutal "let's going out together".
Romance itself was fine when they were running away, but the start was really not natural.
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Old 2008-09-07, 07:35   Link #409
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I personally felt the other way around: considering how Saya's trial and predicament was done and the loop beforehand, I felt the romance was working properly though I agree that, from Riki's perspective, they could work better about his feelings.
I included the first loop when I graded it.
Spoiler:


Quote:
The route itself was kinda on the better group for me, considering its panel of quirks and especially Saya's interactions which are really different from the usual key/LB heroine.
As a route, I graded it ordinary - it was on the OK side of H-games but really doesn't give me 1/20th of the impact that the other endings did; it felt like I was playing a different game by a different company. As a route inside LB ... well, Key would have been better off saving Saya for another game.

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Spoiler for end saya route:
Spoiler for Saya Ending:
But then, despite every effort by the authors short of explicitly writing it out in a single sentence, from a plausibility perspective, it is quite possible that clicking "Yes" is actually the correct answer when Riki and Rin were in the hospital, signifying acceptance of their fate, and when they click "Not Good" it is Denial and they lock themselves permanently in a dream world. But that conclusion is a bit too grim even for me. And that's a sign for me that LB is a really good game and I really like the characters. Otherwise, my cynical self will no doubt be pushing for the above interpretation.
Quote:
Ironically enough, I think that Rin was one of the weakest romance built in the heroine character as a starter. No matter how Rin had already feelings from ages ago, the execution wasn't that convincing especially the brutal "let's going out together".
Romance itself was fine when they were running away, but the start was really not natural.
That's probably because you are grading it as a romance. If you ask me, unless you go for the Rin ending in Refrain, you don't really slide into even a demi-romance, just a deepening of old bonds to slightly beyond Friendship level. Or do you think there is no meaning behind the fact that Rin is the only person to have to wait for Refrain before they had sex, which in a H-game is often at best equal to maybe a good kiss in a non-H?

And there is nothing wrong with that. Considering the two's apparent mental development (and really, at least half the cast's mental development), it is having romance that's un-natural. Sure, all of them have issues, but solving one's issues hardly means romance and sex!

Even if they had more mental development, seeing that Riki is not exactly "infatuated at first sight" with any of them, any romance will have to grow from deepening friendship and that takes time, and the IMO Rin routes are one of the very few in H-games to actually show the characters taking that time, slowly working their way up to sex. How many H-games do you see about 3 kiss scenes and 2 foreplay scenes before finally working up to the first penetration, which fails miserably? No, all men, even those weakling-types like Riki are sex experts and they know how to make women feel good on their first try...

And so, that leaves the presentation, and come on, that was typical Rin! When she's not being shy (forget Kurugaya's diatribe about how calling one's familiar name is like making a small effort to pass another bicycle; the real difficulty for Rin looks to be higher than fighting bears or being launched into the 3rd floor classroom...), she's a brutally straight person. Just the facts, as she sees them anyway. It is using a more delicate or roundabout expression that would be shocking.
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Old 2008-09-07, 13:32   Link #410
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Concerning Saya, I believe it would stick too much on the perspective and point of view. I don't think it would be useful to repeat my points about the quirks etc (especially the burst of feelings after... like insane amount of loops).

But as for Rin, I must disagree strongly.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
That's probably because you are grading it as a romance. If you ask me, unless you go for the Rin ending in Refrain, you don't really slide into even a demi-romance, just a deepening of old bonds to slightly beyond Friendship level. Or do you think there is no meaning behind the fact that Rin is the only person to have to wait for Refrain before they had sex, which in a H-game is often at best equal to maybe a good kiss in a non-H?
I absolutely don't see how it explains the sudden "let's go out". That was almost terribly on the left field, which could scream OOC and bad timing if they weren't childhood friends etc.
Despite such elements, they certainly don't have such romance affinity until refrain etc. But the first loop and further loops were awkward in term of development compared to other girls.

Quote:
And there is nothing wrong with that. Considering the two's apparent mental development (and really, at least half the cast's mental development), it is having romance that's un-natural. Sure, all of them have issues, but solving one's issues hardly means romance and sex!
You are missing the point I made. I did not complain about the further development way afterwards. the STARTER of their relationship was extremely clunky to say the least.

Whoever say that another girl would work better for Riki compared to Rin is very wrong. But, in Rin case, the start was the worst possible among the possible heroines, even more than Kanata, which has probably the worst possible affinity with Riki.
That is the very big problem here.
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Old 2008-09-08, 00:23   Link #411
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I absolutely don't see how it explains the sudden "let's go out". That was almost terribly on the left field, which could scream OOC and bad timing if they weren't childhood friends etc.
For the sake of argument, outline how would you have handled Rin's scene there.

Because the way I see it, it was very natural for them. Rin had always liked Riki but did not have the emotional maturity to recognize exactly what it is. When Rin heard another girl is coming after Riki, presumably her jealousy made her realize, to a small extent, what her feelings were. Action follows.

Riki probably had even weaker feelings, but he does like Rin, it is a good excuse to put off the girl coming at him (no doubt Kyousuke "installed" the girl), and he doesn't have to leave the group that way. So, when Rin called him, it raised his consciousness just a bit and so he agrees.

Quote:
Despite such elements, they certainly don't have such romance affinity until refrain etc. But the first loop and further loops were awkward in term of development compared to other girls.
Frankly, what's awkward is how fast the other loops go, though we are numb to it because in H-games, Hero can somehow go from Zero to love with any character within a month despite not having that instant infatuation with them from the start. Don't confuse a realistic speed with awkwardness. They weren't in deep love, and so they start off not very different from what's before. That's almost world-record natural in H-games.

Quote:
Whoever say that another girl would work better for Riki compared to Rin is very wrong. But, in Rin case, the start was the worst possible among the possible heroines, even more than Kanata, which has probably the worst possible affinity with Riki.
That is the very big problem here.
For Kanata, I saw her route more as an extension of Haruka's. Further, It just means he didn't pick the others that round, nothing much more. Given the diverse personalities Riki flirted, I really hesitate to say who has bad affinitiy.

Frankly, there is awkwardness in Rin's routes, but it had little to do with their relationship, which again IMO is as natural as they come in H-games. What's awkward is that School. We understand the general concept of the school, but why Kyousuke set up the details like he did is a mystery.
Spoiler for Rant about The School:

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-09-08 at 00:36.
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Old 2008-09-08, 07:10   Link #412
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
For the sake of argument, outline how would you have handled Rin's scene there.

Because the way I see it, it was very natural for them. Rin had always liked Riki but did not have the emotional maturity to recognize exactly what it is. When Rin heard another girl is coming after Riki, presumably her jealousy made her realize, to a small extent, what her feelings were. Action follows.
I'm sorry, but what...? You are contrdicting yourself big time. Rin is extremely shy even when she grows up after several loops. She is very inexperimenced, yet you think IT IS natural that she is taking the initiative over Riki?

That is nonsense if you ask me: she would be really unsecure and completely clueless about the meaning of her feelings, yet she is blurting out "let's go out" ?
That's like expecting the usual moe blob osanajimi asking for that without the usual awkward build up, confession etc.

The confession isn't a factor needed all the time, but the build up was next to zero, and no, their chilhood friends status DON'T justify that at all.

Quote:
Riki probably had even weaker feelings, but he does like Rin, it is a good excuse to put off the girl coming at him (no doubt Kyousuke "installed" the girl), and he doesn't have to leave the group that way. So, when Rin called him, it raised his consciousness just a bit and so he agrees.
While I wouldn't disagree much about that, the funny thing is that Riki was barely going "huh?" then go "oh, ok". He was accepting as if it was just a mere task or request to fullfil, while his reactions with the other girls were far more within the spectrum of his character.
Quote:
Frankly, what's awkward is how fast the other loops go, though we are numb to it because in H-games, Hero can somehow go from Zero to love with any character within a month despite not having that instant infatuation with them from the start. Don't confuse a realistic speed with awkwardness. They weren't in deep love, and so they start off not very different from what's before. That's almost world-record natural in H-games.
Please stop using the damn "H game" argument as if you are using other games as a comparison. Please only focus on the story itself and how numerous times the characters were interacting with each other.

I wouldn't question about Kanata's quick romance, but the rest of the girls, particularly Haruka, Kudo and some extent, Mio and Yuiko. Their story drew the usual but yet effective "worry, good time, realization etc". They might be not as a "basic choice" as Rin, but they do have affinity with Riki which I really can't call that rushed. 1 Month is too quick? I'm surprised as most eroge can give the infatuation within mere days.

And still, they didn't bump on each other for mere talk here and there as flags. Common events were big boom (baseball training, fun with everyone, match etc), and the specific flags were pushing the curve of each heroine progressively. So "infatuation" within a month doesn't seem accurate to me.
Quote:
For Kanata, I saw her route more as an extension of Haruka's. Further, It just means he didn't pick the others that round, nothing much more. Given the diverse personalities Riki flirted, I really hesitate to say who has bad affinitiy.
I don't see how Haruka would have any impact for Riki's love towards Kanata, but whatever...
As far as I can see, Riki does not have picky tastes, though affinity would rather how far he and the other heroine are engaging together etc. Kanata was probably the most "losing" battle considering the circumstances and how her personality is very distant.

Quote:
What's awkward is that School. We understand the general concept of the school, but why Kyousuke set up the details like he did is a mystery.
Spoiler for Rant about The School:
Spoiler for about the school structure:
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Old 2008-09-08, 09:47   Link #413
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I'm sorry, but what...? You are contrdicting yourself big time. Rin is extremely shy even when she grows up after several loops. She is very inexperimenced, yet you think IT IS natural that she is taking the initiative over Riki?

That is nonsense if you ask me: she would be really unsecure and completely clueless about the meaning of her feelings, yet she is blurting out "let's go out" ?
That's like expecting the usual moe blob osanajimi asking for that without the usual awkward build up, confession etc.

The confession isn't a factor needed all the time, but the build up was next to zero, and no, their chilhood friends status DON'T justify that at all.
Ahh, I see your point but I disagree, mostly because I think you are reading Rin wrong. Rin is fearful of some things, like Unfamiliar Big Men and Darkness, because they cause PTSD feedback from historical traumas. Then she's shy about Unfamiliar People, mostly, as she says, she isn't sure how she should act.

As she feels safer and more familiar, she'll begin to slip back into her true form, which is mostly straight brutality. It only took her a week or less to start rapping Kudo on the head as tsukkomi, even from her non-socialized state. Perhaps that's why she seemed to take the most time before getting really comfortable with Komari, mostly because she's so syrupy sweet that Rin is more hesitant to slip into naturality than with the others.

With Riki, she's as comfortable as she can get. Brutality is the natural state.

As for the feelings, having re-read the section, it is clear that tsukiaou simply doesn't have deep romantic feelings for Rin, or perhaps Rin's shyness range to words is low. In fact, it all was a bit of mercurialism, probably just a bit of whim propelled by the 1-in-20 parts Romanticism she had for Riki that got just so slightly stimulated by the event.

The end result is that a brutal invitation is almost inevitable. The usual moe blob osananajimi is generally too nice and polite, and will not be recognized to be so clueless, that it'll look un-natural. More importantly, they'll have to be much deeper in love before they'll even use the word, which makes it much harder to say. For Rin, there are few other ways to reflect her character, how limited her understanding of the word is, and all that.

As for the build up, why? Any buildup we can see means a sudden vector change. They've been friends for ~6 years (the game says 10 officially, but yeah, you really believe those characters are adults too...). Sharp attitude vector changes are less plausible than just slowly gliding in like they did.

Quote:
While I wouldn't disagree much about that, the funny thing is that Riki was barely going "huh?" then go "oh, ok". He was accepting as if it was just a mere task or request to fullfil, while his reactions with the other girls were far more within the spectrum of his character.
Yes, and I don't see what's wrong with that, because his feelings for Rin has also not gone significantly in its conversion towards Romance. So he has to drum around before figuring, yeah, I have a bit of feeling. Without Rin raising his consciousness, it'll have been just as buried in the mud. That's how old Friendships convert towards romance - slowly.

Quote:
Please stop using the damn "H game" argument as if you are using other games as a comparison. Please only focus on the story itself and how numerous times the characters were interacting with each other.
Yes, they were interacting a lot, but that's at best enough to get them familiar and to be friends.

Quote:
I wouldn't question about Kanata's quick romance, but the rest of the girls, particularly Haruka, Kudo and some extent, Mio and Yuiko. Their story drew the usual but yet effective "worry, good time, realization etc". They might be not as a "basic choice" as Rin, but they do have affinity with Riki which I really can't call that rushed. 1 Month is too quick? I'm surprised as most eroge can give the infatuation within mere days.
Well, first you say I shouldn't use H-game standards, and then you do? I'm confused.

Anyway, because that's H-game standard, we no longer deduct points for it. However, it doesn't change the fact that in real life terms, it is horribly, unrealistically rushed. Perhaps if Riki had been one of those really outgoing H-game protagonists, it'll be more reasonable, but it is Riki. Given that, yes one month is too quick. We've just forgotten.

So when a route actually takes its time, it gets bonus points, and it should in no way reflect negatively about the players in the route.

Quote:
And still, they didn't bump on each other for mere talk here and there as flags. Common events were big boom (baseball training, fun with everyone, match etc), and the specific flags were pushing the curve of each heroine progressively. So "infatuation" within a month doesn't seem accurate to me.
You do show a bit more interest in one of the characters, like in all H-games by clicking the choices, but even the total interest hardly means a rapid progression towards love and sex before the end of June.

[quote]I don't see how Haruka would have any impact for Riki's love towards Kanata, but whatever...
As far as I can see, Riki does not have picky tastes, though affinity would rather how far he and the other heroine are engaging together etc. Kanata was probably the most "losing" battle considering the circumstances and how her personality is very distant.

Yes, but the game reflects this reduced time for depth - you don't get a Kanata sex scene. Kanata's sex scene is when she impersonates Haruka...

Quote:
Spoiler for about the school structure:
Spoiler:
Quote:
Spoiler:
Spoiler for The girls:
Quote:
Spoiler:
Spoiler for Foresaking:
Quote:
Spoiler:
Spoiler for Running out of time:

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-09-08 at 11:10. Reason: Having re-read it, wanted to change a bit of the answer...
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Old 2008-09-08, 11:54   Link #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Ahh, I see your point but I disagree, mostly because I think you are reading Rin wrong. Rin is fearful of some things, like Unfamiliar Big Men and Darkness, because they cause PTSD feedback from historical traumas. Then she's shy about Unfamiliar People, mostly, as she says, she isn't sure how she should act.
The fact Riki isn't a stranger doesn't mean she is anything good with him under specific boundaries. otherwise, she would be fine with the "bath "tube"" scene which she wasn't at all.
Quote:
As she feels safer and more familiar, she'll begin to slip back into her true form, which is mostly straight brutality. It only took her a week or less to start rapping Kudo on the head as tsukkomi, even from her non-socialized state. Perhaps that's why she seemed to take the most time before getting really comfortable with Komari, mostly because she's so syrupy sweet that Rin is more hesitant to slip into naturality than with the others.
...You are mixing friendship with "love" here. Rin intended a serious relationship with Riki with her blunt "let's go out". It is absolutely not on the same league than being easy going with friends that are really easy to approach.
Quote:
With Riki, she's as comfortable as she can get. Brutality is the natural state.
That is irrelevant to the lack of build up. I don't question how she is doing it, but I'm questioning how it happened with "zero" build up prior !
Quote:
As for the feelings, having re-read the section, it is clear that tsukiaou simply doesn't have deep romantic feelings for Rin, or perhaps Rin's shyness range to words is low. In fact, it all was a bit of mercurialism, probably just a bit of whim propelled by the 1-in-20 parts Romanticism she had for Riki that got just so slightly stimulated by the event.
I'm sorry, but you are writing random stuff, I fail to see the point here.

Quote:
The end result is that a brutal invitation is almost inevitable. The usual moe blob osananajimi is generally too nice and polite, and will not be recognized to be so clueless, that it'll look un-natural. More importantly, they'll have to be much deeper in love before they'll even use the word, which makes it much harder to say. For Rin, there are few other ways to reflect her character, how limited her understanding of the word is, and all that.
So a brutal invitation out of the blue without proper build up without especially a door towards romance is acceptable? Yet, I didn't have the problem with the "fashion" of such invitation, but the CONTEXT and circumstances which were worse with Riki plain lack of involvement.
Quote:
As for the build up, why? Any buildup we can see means a sudden vector change. They've been friends for ~6 years (the game says 10 officially, but yeah, you really believe those characters are adults too...). Sharp attitude vector changes are less plausible than just slowly gliding in like they did.
...is that for real? I'm sorry if I sound blunt, but build up is actually what is necessary for a relationship to bloom. That's the very thing that all LB heroines needed to be with Riki in the first place. Yet, no build up required? So, basically, if I have been friends with a girl for 6 years without any change or variable factors then suddenly one of us says "let's go out together", it would sound natural to you?

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense: even if they had feelings for each other for a certain amount of time, they would still need the occasions to express it and to actually realize them themselves, which they didn't, especially Riki with Rin.

He did with the other girls, especially Saya and Yuiko, but with Rin, he simply accepted out of nowhere. And yet, Rin didn't display anything much either.

Quote:
Yes, and I don't see what's wrong with that, because his feelings for Rin has also not gone significantly in its conversion towards Romance. So he has to drum around before figuring, yeah, I have a bit of feeling. Without Rin raising his consciousness, it'll have been just as buried in the mud. That's how old Friendships convert towards romance - slowly.
Slowly, yet it is a brutal change of: friendship => romance. You don't say "let's go out" then see if things will go ok for romance, I believe. Rather, it would require both persons to know each other beyond friendship realm to actually reconsider something past this point. THAT's build up which can be done slowly with foreshadowing and subtle points which weren't present for Rin.

Quote:
Well, first you say I shouldn't use H-game standards, and then you do? I'm confused.
You are linking both concept though they are not related here, yet I just commented and gave how in usual eroge, it can be worse than that. I compared the possible result, I never used the "eroge" component to use it as argument of my claims.
Quote:
Anyway, because that's H-game standard, we no longer deduct points for it. However, it doesn't change the fact that in real life terms, it is horribly, unrealistically rushed. Perhaps if Riki had been one of those really outgoing H-game protagonists, it'll be more reasonable, but it is Riki. Given that, yes one month is too quick. We've just forgotten.
Pardon? So it is unrealistic it is within 1 month despite how both characters are interacting each other progressively everyday. Yet, it is okay with rin, without any build up, just because of "brutal" and 6+ years of friendship?

Quote:
You do show a bit more interest in one of the characters, like in all H-games by clicking the choices, but even the total interest hardly means a rapid progression towards love and sex before the end of June.
Be in the character's shoes perhaps? But i guess it will be a "agree to disagree".

Quote:
Spoiler for The girls:
you are mixing things
Spoiler for friends VS second school:


Quote:
Spoiler for Running out of time:
Spoiler for pre refrain:
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Old 2008-09-08, 22:28   Link #415
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The fact Riki isn't a stranger doesn't mean she is anything good with him under specific boundaries. otherwise, she would be fine with the "bath "tube"" scene which she wasn't at all.
Did we watch the same bath scene? She was a bit embarassed, but she was doing a heck of a lot better than Riki, who can't even mumble something intelligible. She was also the one who took initiative and brought him to the little wooden tub. Frankly, when compared to her shyness with human relations, Rin can be most bold when it comes being with Riki ...

Or do you mean the bath they took in Kudo's room? Considering their level of intimacy then, it was normal... it is hard to compare that with asking for a date.

Quote:
...is that for real? I'm sorry if I sound blunt, but build up is actually what is necessary for a relationship to bloom. That's the very thing that all LB heroines needed to be with Riki in the first place. Yet, no build up required? So, basically, if I have been friends with a girl for 6 years without any change or variable factors then suddenly one of us says "let's go out together", it would sound natural to you?
There was a change in factor - the love letter. Yes, I know it isn't a big stimulus compared to learning about the other's abused past, dead brothers ..., but come on, this kind of small stimulus happens a lot more in reality than the above, which is common only in anime and H-games.

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I'm sorry, but this is nonsense: even if they had feelings for each other for a certain amount of time, they would still need the occasions to express it and to actually realize them themselves, which they didn't, especially Riki with Rin.
It happened. Love letter raised Rin's consciousness (she even thanked the love letter girl for it), and the proposal raised Riki's consciousness. Quite frankly, I find it at least as plausible as the idea of solving those problems leading to sex.

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He did with the other girls, especially Saya and Yuiko, but with Rin, he simply accepted out of nowhere. And yet, Rin didn't display anything much either.
Yuiko is at least somewhat realistic in that he admires her. Saya? Never mind the 3 days to sex thing, but she nearly killed him in all those X loops! One would think this would be a huge put-off to say the least!

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Slowly, yet it is a brutal change of: friendship => romance. You don't say "let's go out" then see if things will go ok for romance, I believe. Rather, it would require both persons to know each other beyond friendship realm to actually reconsider something past this point. THAT's build up which can be done slowly with foreshadowing and subtle points which weren't present for Rin.
You would, especially if you are not completely aware of the full dimensions of romance (read: Rin).

As for the "know each other beyond friendship"? That's kind of wierd considering all the one month or even three day long run ups that you passed.

Addition: Finally, Friendship and Romance are IMO not mutually separate concepts with a high barrier in between. It is more than a continuum in which Friendship eventually converts to being Romance.

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Pardon? So it is unrealistic it is within 1 month despite how both characters are interacting each other progressively everyday. Yet, it is okay with rin, without any build up, just because of "brutal" and 6+ years of friendship?
They are progressively increasing their friendship from 0. Then all of a sudden, it takes a 60 degree vector change into love, which progresses into sex at lightning speed? It might be H-game standard and yes it can be worse but I'm supposed to find this more plausible than two characters who have buried affection and made a 5 degree change towards a shallow romance and worked up to sex over months?

Spoiler for friends VS second school:


Spoiler for pre refrain:

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-09-09 at 00:17.
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Old 2008-09-09, 06:01   Link #416
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Did we watch the same bath scene? She was a bit embarassed, but she was doing a heck of a lot better than Riki, who can't even mumble something intelligible. She was also the one who took initiative and brought him to the little wooden tub. Frankly, when compared to her shyness with human relations, Rin can be most bold when it comes being with Riki ...
The problem isn't Riki, I don't even factor him in the equation. Rin in such case, even with Riki, wasn't exactly that confident nor easy. Riki doesn't give her the ability to be all indifferent or okay with X or Y. Like i said 2 posts before, Rin is okay under some conditions, and even with the mosr favorable part, she is very timid under certain treshold.
Quote:
There was a change in factor - the love letter. Yes, I know it isn't a big stimulus compared to learning about the other's abused past, dead brothers ..., but come on, this kind of small stimulus happens a lot more in reality than the above, which is common only in anime and H-games.

It happened. Love letter raised Rin's consciousness (she even thanked the love letter girl for it), and the proposal raised Riki's consciousness. Quite frankly, I find it at least as plausible as the idea of solving those problems leading to sex.
And this "usual" stimulus in VN is usually forcing some epiphany over time as characters see their love interest going farther from them etc.
But with Riki and Rin, they weren't exactly that affected by these letters or so and they basically go out without much tension or build up. It might be a trigger, still there is absolutely no build up at all. If you ask me, this is far worse than "1 month only".
Quote:
Yuiko is at least somewhat realistic in that he admires her. Saya? Never mind the 3 days to sex thing, but she nearly killed him in all those X loops! One would think this would be a huge put-off to say the least!
I think you should understand Riki point of view and such: as far as Saya presented herself with the "killing intention", it was never ill intended, rather cold and such, nothing malicious or whatnot. This is pretty much giving a reason for Riki to wonder about Saya's objective and methods. If it was that a problem for him, he would most likely run away or so, which he didn't (curiosity and threatened by the "organization of darkness"). So pretty much, Saya's killing attempt doesn't have much weight, it rather seems that "you" wouldn't be pleased by that, though the circumstances of the said character, so Riki, allow him to question about that.

Quote:
You would, especially if you are not completely aware of the full dimensions of romance (read: Rin).

As for the "know each other beyond friendship"? That's kind of wierd considering all the one month or even three day long run ups that you passed.
You are obsessed by the time span it seems...
First, it is realist in a sense that a romance in reality CAN bloom within mere 24 hours without being a blunt blind love at the first sight. So whatever 3 days or 1 month, it is still realist if the characters ARE showing build up, events that permit them to be close to each other, learn each other and being attracted to each other.
By default, almost all girls in LB were attracted by Riki right from the bat, it was just a matter for Riki to be attracted in return, which happens by the time they are doing crazy stuff with the rest of the little busters.

Again, the time is irrelevant, but what matters the most is the build up and the circumstances. And in Rin case, it failed because they don't even think about it. They simply jumped from "friendship" into "romance" without any transition and they are blooming the romance AFTER trying to be a couple. Maeda Jun completely reversed that.

I still don't see how you can be in favor of a sudden and undeveloped romance starter, and rant about the others which took 1 week/1 month of pure build up. If you ask me, in your terms, Rin case is worse as the romance took not even 1 day to start off, and no, the 6 years don't apply considering they were not in the romance/development scope.

Like I said, the latter romance wasn't a problem. It was all good with the normal route and refrain. But the STARTER was ugly rushed/brutal.

Quote:
Addition: Finally, Friendship and Romance are IMO not mutually separate concepts with a high barrier in between. It is more than a continuum in which Friendship eventually converts to being Romance.
Look, this is what I was saying for the whole time, but the problem with rin is that: it JUMPS from friendship to romance WITHOUT the continuum. They simply skipped several steps.

If you want a mere analogy, it is like them going from red and jumping at green, without passing through orange and yellow color. There is no transition, no build up, nothing.
Being a osanajimi doesn't allow such thing until their relationship was ambiguous for years: like Kaede and Rin from Shuffle, for example.

Quote:
They are progressively increasing their friendship from 0. Then all of a sudden, it takes a 60 degree vector change into love, which progresses into sex at lightning speed? It might be H-game standard and yes it can be worse but I'm supposed to find this more plausible than two characters who have buried affection and made a 5 degree change towards a shallow romance and worked up to sex over months?
You are comparing orange and apple. Like I said, all girls from the start started with more than simple friendship in mind towards Riki. Sure, they were not friends for starter, but they already got attracted by him in a way or another (especially Yuiko, for reasons she explained herself to him). Not necessarily romance, but quick enough that they manage to talk with Riki casually very quickly (most notable example is Kudo).

And no, except perhaps Kanata, I can't see such build up as a 60 degree vector from friendship to romance. Actually, the friendship in most case was solid within the first 3-5 days, except for Kanata being utterly slow, Sasami (for obvious reason, timewise) and Saya.

Spoiler for friends VS second school:


Spoiler for pre refrain:
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Old 2008-09-09, 10:36   Link #417
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The problem isn't Riki, I don't even factor him in the equation. Rin in such case, even with Riki, wasn't exactly that confident nor easy. Riki doesn't give her the ability to be all indifferent or okay with X or Y. Like i said 2 posts before, Rin is okay under some conditions, and even with the mosr favorable part, she is very timid under certain treshold.
And it would seem that just saying tsukiaou is one of many things that are under the thereshold that you mention. Of course, there are limits to everything, but she clearly demonstrated the initiative, which kind of puts a dent in any theory that says that Riki would have more initiative than her.

Quote:
And this "usual" stimulus in VN is usually forcing some epiphany over time as characters see their love interest going farther from them etc. But with Riki and Rin, they weren't exactly that affected by these letters or so and they basically go out without much tension or build up. It might be a trigger, still there is absolutely no build up at all. If you ask me, this is far worse than "1 month only".
Ahh, so you would prefer that Rin spend a week or two either mobbing around or getting angry at Riki. But that will require that Rin had a much higher initial romantic feeling value for Riki, and that isn't the case.

Quote:
So pretty much, Saya's killing attempt doesn't have much weight, it rather seems that "you" wouldn't be pleased by that, though the circumstances of the said character, so Riki, allow him to question about that.
Are you saying that when you have been nearly killed by a particular person about three times in a day or two, you would even care about whether she has "malice" or not?

Quote:
You are obsessed by the time span it seems...
First, it is realist in a sense that a romance in reality CAN bloom within mere 24 hours without being a blunt blind love at the first sight. So whatever 3 days or 1 month, it is still realist if the characters ARE showing build up, events that permit them to be close to each other, learn each other and being attracted to each other.
I'm sure that if you searched all the romances in the world, I'm sure you'll find a few that are like that. But mostly, such things are infatuation, because people just don't get to know each other that well in one month.

Quote:
By default, almost all girls in LB were attracted by Riki right from the bat, it was just a matter for Riki to be attracted in return, which happens by the time they are doing crazy stuff with the rest of the little busters.
I see a bunch of nice friendships. I see nothing that signifies a jump to romance and sex w/i another month.

Quote:
Look, this is what I was saying for the whole time, but the problem with rin is that: it JUMPS from friendship to romance WITHOUT the continuum. They simply skipped several steps.

If you want a mere analogy, it is like them going from red and jumping at green, without passing through orange and yellow color. There is no transition, no build up, nothing.
Being a osanajimi doesn't allow such thing until their relationship was ambiguous for years: like Kaede and Rin from Shuffle, for example.
Yes there was. In your analogy, they started off at "red". A small bit of "Green" has quietly manifested and is buried inside all the red. And for Rin, the Green has an iceberg tip that manifests in various ways. Because she played the "Find the World's Secret" game with Riki, their relationship deepened more than it otherwise would, which increases both Red and Green. the latter which is awakened by the Love Letter event. Using that small bit of iceberg Green, still small enough it allows her to act on impulse without getting shy, Rin proposes to Riki, which fires up Riki's small bit of Green, and the buildup begins at its very sedate (realistic) pace, going through the actual phases of Orange (as the Green component increases) running through Yellow (they never quite make it to Green). Without the starter, the Green stays buried and they are also just happy with that.

If we use your analogy with the other characters, they start off with white (nothing; they don't even know each other). They meet Riki and Red and (maybe) Green start filling up. It is clearly mostly Red that fills up seeing that in all cases except for Haruka (ref: Kanata's route), failure to pick them does not lead to any problems (and also, where you had not picked Rin, none of them made a move for Riki in the Epilogue), and even for Haruka it was small enough - Green is effectively buried. So, one would expect that further relationship will only mostly increase Red portion. Then all of a sudden, without stimuli, the Green portion seems to suddenly skyrocket and they rush through to Green in an implausibility short time.

Quote:
You are comparing orange and apple. Like I said, all girls from the start started with more than simple friendship in mind towards Riki. Sure, they were not friends for starter, but they already got attracted by him in a way or another (especially Yuiko, for reasons she explained herself to him). Not necessarily romance, but quick enough that they manage to talk with Riki casually very quickly (most notable example is Kudo).
Amazingly, with all other characters, familiarity justifies a quick transition to love... Besides, managing to talk casually very quickly is actually a sign of a very high friendship percentage, not a romance percentage. Romance tends to make you clam up.

Quote:
And no, except perhaps Kanata, I can't see such build up as a 60 degree vector from friendship to romance. Actually, the friendship in most case was solid within the first 3-5 days, except for Kanata being utterly slow, Sasami (for obvious reason, timewise) and Saya.
Oh, Kanata's was another realistic one, relatively. Sasami was a low-prob relationship to begin with. Saya I've talked about.

Spoiler for friends VS second school:


Spoiler for pre refrain:
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Old 2008-09-09, 20:47   Link #418
kimchipride
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Any walthroughs I can use to play through all arcs of LB!Ex?
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Old 2008-09-11, 02:12   Link #419
lKaionlRiul
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TypeMania4 with Little Busters! EX Ver. + High Res Video


http://www.megaupload.com/?d=BZXTEFF9



just download and run the .html file with your choice web browser
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Old 2008-09-15, 09:18   Link #420
NAGATO MIKU
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http://seiya-saiga.com/game/key/littlebustersEX.html
the walkthroughs for LBEX!

and this one is good for the saya line,it supply the map for underground.
http://osanagi.sakura.ne.jp/littlebu.../dungeon1.html
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