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Old 2011-06-21, 09:43   Link #2161
Tak
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Originally Posted by Shinn Kamiyra View Post
For example, Lacus having spoken up when she did, and as you said, when the time for reasoning was long since past. At this point it seems all that that accomplished was to tarnish Dullindal's credibility and garner the people to fight against him. If it were truly in Kira and co.'s interest to end the fighting, they should've done that the moment they heard about Meer.
The sad thing is, they only found out about Meer when they took action. Prior to that, Meer hardly registered as a blimp on their radar. Even after they found out about Meer, battle had already been raging for a while now. Moreover, Lacus at the time probably thought Meer to be a little more than a nuisance and pretty much left it at that.

Could she have exposed Meer earlier? Certainly, but that only fuels the creditability of the Earth forces and its not exactly what Lacus wanted, or in the best interest of Cagali, especially when her relatives were Alliance sympathizers.

- Tak
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Old 2011-06-21, 10:15   Link #2162
rakusukira
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Originally Posted by Shinn Kamiyra View Post
I believe you're right in that Dullindal and ZAFT brought what happened to them upon themselves, however I would say that in particular is reflective of forcing the story in the direction that they wanted it to be told. Looking at the character of Dullindal as a whole, I don't believe it would've been surprising at all if he had just tried to talk to Kira and co. about what he was planning and simply asking them to step out of the way or even as rakusukira said, convincing them to join ZAFT. That might've been far more interesting to watch, but then again that's a whole other can of worms.

So many things in GSD seem to have been justified and forced so as to have the story progress in the way they wanted it to be told.

For example, Lacus having spoken up when she did, and as you said, when the time for reasoning was long since past. At this point it seems all that that accomplished was to tarnish Dullindal's credibility and garner the people to fight against him. If it were truly in Kira and co.'s interest to end the fighting, they should've done that the moment they heard about Meer.

the problem with GSD is the politics were not well written enough.. the series had so much potential in terms of politics..

Lacus and Athrun's character in GSD should have had a much bigger role.

Athrun, being the son of the mad man who tried to destroy Earth, returns to PLANTS to carry the burden of his father's actions. that was a desirable effect, even if people were ranting against Athrun's return to ZAFT and how he didn't "learn anything" back in SEED. but indeed he did learn something. in fact he thought that if he acted to the situation IMMEDIATELY, things would be resolved. but he ended up being a puppet for Dully.

Athrun's arc was quite interesting.

Lacus, her character was depicted rather badly (I'm a Lacus fan). They should have given more depth into her character. She was the daughter of the man who tried to stop the mad man from destroying earth. IF Dully was smart enough, he should have thought about uniting the Zala and Clyne faction to further his influence on PLANT.

the story would have been more interesting if Lacus and Kira were against eachother... since it would be rather impossible for Kira to go against his twin sister if Lacus and Athrun would side with Dully.

and yes, GSD story was very forced. like how we were FORCED to believe that Athrun and Cagalli weren't lovers...........
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Old 2011-06-21, 10:25   Link #2163
Tak
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Originally Posted by rakusukira View Post
IF Dully was smart enough, he should have thought about uniting the Zala and Clyne faction to further his influence on PLANT.

the story would have been more interesting if Lacus and Kira were against eachother... since it would be rather impossible for Kira to go against his twin sister if Lacus and Athrun would side with Dully.
But you presented couple impossible scenarios.

1. Kira would never go against Lacus and vise-versa. If he had to choose between Lacus and his sister, somehow I believe he'd stick with the former.

Moreover, Kira already resolved the issue of going against his twin sister. He done this by... well... kidnapping her.

2. One cannot control Lacus. Dully cannot work with Lacus, because he will eventually end up working for Lacus.

3. Lacus would have refused the offer without a second thought.

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Old 2011-06-21, 10:35   Link #2164
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Quote:
1. Kira would never go against Lacus and vise-versa. If he had to choose between Lacus and his sister, somehow I believe he'd stick with the former.

Moreover, Kira already resolved the issue of going against his twin sister. He done this by... well... kidnapping her.
Precisely, Kira will never leave Lacus. The only one who could plausibly force Kira against Lacus is...dead, and God knows how much of an impact that person can make with Lacus having a two-year headstart.
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Old 2011-06-21, 10:37   Link #2165
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
But you presented couple impossible scenarios.

1. Kira would never go against Lacus and vise-versa. If he had to choose between Lacus and his sister, somehow I believe he'd stick with the former.

Moreover, Kira already resolved the issue of going against his twin sister. He done this by... well... kidnapping her.

2. One cannot control Lacus. Dully cannot work with Lacus, because he will eventually end up working for Lacus.

3. Lacus would have refused the offer without a second thought.

- Tak
kidnapping Cagalli wasn't "going against" her.. he was trying to make Cagalli stay true to her feelings.

about the points you mentioned.. that is why Lacus' character was portrayed poorly in GSD. it's as if she's a person who NEVER makes mistakes. and how do you know that Kira won't go against her no matter what? well, he would if she would do something horribly wrong. but then again, the story would be far MORE interesting if Lacus went crazy and Kira would still follow her because of their romantic relationship. I, for one, want to see a depressed, crying, problematic Lacus Clyne.

think about it, if those points were not impossible GSD would have been more interesting
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Old 2011-06-21, 10:37   Link #2166
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I don't know how much power Lacus has over the remnants of Blue Cosmos or whatever anti-coordinator, and I am not sure if it is correct to designate Cagali as puppet. Although I am quite certain if Cagali did not have Lacus' assistance, she would not end up where she is at the end of GSD.
For the SEED movie, if Naomi Shindo doesn't return to respire her role as Cagalli, and if Morosawa gets her way, the best-case scenario of what would happen to Cagalli is that she would be "kicked upstairs" a la Sayla Mass, or worse, kill her off outright.

And is it possible that Shinn might also get kicked upstairs?
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Old 2011-06-21, 10:44   Link #2167
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For the SEED movie, if Naomi Shindo doesn't return to respire her role as Cagalli, and if Morosawa gets her way, the best-case scenario of what would happen to Cagalli is that she would be "kicked upstairs" a la Sayla Mass, or worse, kill her off outright.

And is it possible that Shinn might also get kicked upstairs?
what does "kicked upstairs" mean?
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Old 2011-06-21, 10:59   Link #2168
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kidnapping Cagalli wasn't "going against" her.. he was trying to make Cagalli stay true to her feelings.
Kidnapping her was not going against her. By kidnapping her, it meant Kira does not have to go against Orb with his sister in the leadership position, even as a figurehead. This solves a lot of political problems. It also meant Cagali can declare herself as legitimate head-of-state of Orb while leading a government in exile.

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about the points you mentioned.. that is why Lacus' character was portrayed poorly in GSD. it's as if she's a person who NEVER makes mistakes.
Because she was not supposed to make mistakes, and this was from the goddess Rei Tanaka's mouth to our ears. That was her character, Mary Sue x 100000000000+.

She just wasn't a stupid Mary Sue, and backed up her Mary Sueness with guns, lots of guns.

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Originally Posted by rakusukira View Post
and how do you know that Kira won't go against her no matter what? well, he would if she would do something horribly wrong. but then again, the story would be far MORE interesting if Lacus went crazy and Kira would still follow her because of their romantic relationship.
You answered your own question. The latter would definitely happen.

- Tak
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Last edited by Tak; 2011-06-21 at 11:49.
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Old 2011-06-21, 11:02   Link #2169
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then how come wait delay is going besides unless we GS era fans would go lead & help out to get GS movie.

besides i would personally volunteer go work help remain to fix on GS movie to show it to everyone.

overall really i'm assume they got something plan for it 10yrs special in next year.
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Old 2011-06-21, 11:12   Link #2170
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
The sad thing is, they only found out about Meer when they took action. Prior to that, Meer hardly registered as a blimp on their radar. Even after they found out about Meer, battle had already been raging for a while now. Moreover, Lacus at the time probably thought Meer to be a little more than a nuisance and pretty much left it at that.

Could she have exposed Meer earlier? Certainly, but that only fuels the creditability of the Earth forces and its not exactly what Lacus wanted, or in the best interest of Cagali, especially when her relatives were Alliance sympathizers.

- Tak
A nuisance? I can't believe that Lacus would take such an abuse of her image and power and just brush it aside as though it were nothing. Given some thought, I'm certain she would've realized the consequences of such a person being under Dullindal's manipulative thumb.

You may be right in the Earth Forces' credibility being boosted, however Dullindal could easily make the argument that he was trying to unite his people in the midst of the horror of Junius 7 crashing to Earth, which is pretty much what he was trying to do. So even if the Earth Forces were to take advantage of the deception, Dullindal could stay his position as a peace-favoring ruler and perhaps even use their bullying to unite his people even further.

The Earth Forces' argument for engaging in the war was that Coordinators dropped Junius 7 onto Earth. By solidifying his position as one for peace, Dullindal could directly oppose that view through his actions, albeit somewhat misguided ones, and bring real debate to the floor as to whether this was a war that needed to be fought. Having that kind of controversy on the table could bring a much deeper set of emotions and hatred out into the open, making for a far more appealing story.
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Old 2011-06-21, 11:23   Link #2171
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what does "kicked upstairs" mean?
When someone gets "promoted" just to get them out of the way. Which is what should happen to Morosawa (i.e., "promote" her to a creative consultant).

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Because she was not supposed to make mistakes, and this was from the goddess Rei Tanaka's mouth to our ears. That was her character, Mary Sue x 100000000000+.
And even Rie herself described Lacus as the hardest character she portrayed so far, calling her character "unrealistic".
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Old 2011-06-21, 11:28   Link #2172
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A nuisance? I can't believe that Lacus would take such an abuse of her image and power and just brush it aside as though it were nothing. Given some thought, I'm certain she would've realized the consequences of such a person being under Dullindal's manipulative thumb.

You may be right in the Earth Forces' credibility being boosted, however Dullindal could easily make the argument that he was trying to unite his people in the midst of the horror of Junius 7 crashing to Earth, which is pretty much what he was trying to do. So even if the Earth Forces were to take advantage of the deception, Dullindal could stay his position as a peace-favoring ruler and perhaps even use their bullying to unite his people even further.

The Earth Forces' argument for engaging in the war was that Coordinators dropped Junius 7 onto Earth. By solidifying his position as one for peace, Dullindal could directly oppose that view through his actions, albeit somewhat misguided ones, and bring real debate to the floor as to whether this was a war that needed to be fought. Having that kind of controversy on the table could bring a much deeper set of emotions and hatred out into the open, making for a far more appealing story.
i still can't seem to answer this question. Was Dully involved in the dropping of Junius 7? did he "stage" it all? from the discovery of Logos to the intent of destroying ORB from the very start?
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Old 2011-06-21, 11:29   Link #2173
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And even Rie herself described Lacus as the hardest character she portrayed so far, calling her character "unrealistic".
Personally, I think Lacus would've made an awesome tragic heroine. The only side of her that we've ever seen is reflective of that of a saint, always wanting to help others, taking care of children, never seeming to worry about herself, etc.

From the moment I first laid eyes on her character, I wanted to know what had happened to her to make her turn out that way, whether it stemmed from her mother or some sort of unexpected, conflicted past, or whatever. Sadly it never happened.
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Old 2011-06-21, 11:41   Link #2174
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Personally, I think Lacus would've made an awesome tragic heroine. The only side of her that we've ever seen is reflective of that of a saint, always wanting to help others, taking care of children, never seeming to worry about herself, etc.

From the moment I first laid eyes on her character, I wanted to know what had happened to her to make her turn out that way, whether it stemmed from her mother or some sort of unexpected, conflicted past, or whatever. Sadly it never happened.
yeah, we never really got a glimpse of Lacus' past.

it probably stems from her very "perfect" upbringing

btw, was her mother a victim of the bloody valentine too?
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Old 2011-06-21, 11:47   Link #2175
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yeah, we never really got a glimpse of Lacus' past.

it probably stems from her very "perfect" upbringing

btw, was her mother a victim of the bloody valentine too?
You know what they say about people who seem perfect on the outside in that they're anything but on the inside. Lacus' saint-like nature practically begs the story to probe deeper inside of her to find some sort of darkness or pain that she's kept locked away, something to give us something to relate to.

If she really had as much of a "perfect" upbringing as you claim, I would think that all the more reason for her to show some faults. Surely most anyone would be just about ready to go nuts having to be so unequivocally sweet and kind all the time.

If Lacus' mother was a victim of the Bloody Valentine, I certainly never saw any proof of that in GS or GSD. The only time I ever even heard her mentioned was when near the end of GS when she was talking to Kira. I don't believe she was ever touched upon at all in GSD. A serious mistake, IMHO.
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Old 2011-06-21, 11:49   Link #2176
Tak
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Originally Posted by Shinn Kamiyra View Post
A nuisance? I can't believe that Lacus would take such an abuse of her image and power and just brush it aside as though it were nothing. Given some thought, I'm certain she would've realized the consequences of such a person being under Dullindal's manipulative thumb.
But... thats what... she did. Lacus saw Meer probably for the first time in the Archangel, and all she did was... meh.

Besides, what did she say to Meer when she finally met her? You could be me if you like, but we are different persons. If Meer's existence was to initially bring the people of PLANT together, I don't think Lacus would have minded. Lacus only stepped in after it got out of hand.

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Originally Posted by Shinn Kamiyra View Post
Dullindal could easily make the argument that he was trying to unite his people in the midst of the horror of Junius 7 crashing to Earth
Of course that is what he did, but Earth wouldn't see it that way. The latter could have easily made a counterargument that Dully was a lying sob, and attempted to unite PLANT under his thumbs through well, a lie. Thus, it could be a wining situation for Dully (by using Meer), but at the same time, it could be a winning situation for Earth, too.

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Lacus' saint-like nature practically begs the story to probe deeper inside of her to find some sort of darkness or pain that she's kept locked away, something to give us something to relate to.
She had those. Granted there weren't many, but when she chose to share her deeper, darker secrets, she does so with Kira, and Kira only.

The question is, how much of those does she have? Why is she required to have deep, dark secrets? One can possess sharp intuition without retaining deep, dark secrets.

- Tak
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Last edited by Tak; 2011-06-21 at 12:03.
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Old 2011-06-21, 12:18   Link #2177
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But... thats what... she did. Lacus saw Meer probably for the first time in the Archangel, and all she did was... meh.

Besides, what did she say to Meer when she finally met her? You could be me if you like, but we are different persons. If Meer's existence was to initially bring the people of PLANT together, I don't think Lacus would have minded. Lacus only stepped in after it got out of hand.
Again with the saint-like behavior. A woman takes her name, image, and reputation, and all Lacus has to say to it is "Meh". It would've been far more appealing had she shown some kind of anger or frustration at such a thing, yet she just lets it go until there's a serious situation to be dealt with.

One could even make the argument that if Lacus had intervened earlier on, Meer might not have lost her life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Of course that is what he did, but Earth wouldn't see it that way. The latter could have easily made a counterargument that Dully was a lying sob, and attempted to unite PLANT under his thumbs through well, a lie. Thus, it could be a wining situation for Dully (by using Meer), but at the same time, it could be a winning situation for Earth, too.
Exactly. Neither side would be completely justified in how they went about handling the situation and so the ensuing arguments could bring to light the underlying feelings and hatred beneath the guise of Junius 7 falling to Earth being the reason for the war.

I believe such a conflict of feelings and ideas would've made for a far more drawn out conflict than a simple tragedy.

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Originally Posted by Tak
She had those. Granted there weren't many, but when she chose to share her deeper, darker secrets, she does so with Kira, and Kira only.

The question is, how much of those does she have? Why is she required to have deep, dark secrets?

- Tak
The only real tragedy we saw happen with Lacus was in the original GS where her father was killed. Now, undeniably, that was a very sympathetic situation that gave this seemingly perfect heroine a sense of sadness in her existence; however, following that, nothing about her changed. She was still pretty much the same person she had always been.

Where was the anger? The frustration? Feelings of helplessness or an inability to cope with the loss of someone precious to her? One could make the argument that the lack of these even reinforces her role as the perfect heroine because she seems to be a loss for these very real human emotions.

I want these so-called "deep, dark secrets" so I can relate more to Lacus' character and try to understand why it is she's the way that she is. As she stands now, she's akin to a far away idealistic dream that no real person could possibly live up to.
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Old 2011-06-21, 13:28   Link #2178
Tak
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Originally Posted by Shinn Kamiyra View Post
Again with the saint-like behavior. A woman takes her name, image, and reputation, and all Lacus has to say to it is "Meh". It would've been far more appealing had she shown some kind of anger or frustration at such a thing, yet she just lets it go until there's a serious situation to be dealt with.
If there is anything anyone can accuse Lacus of, its overconfidence. She probably thought anyone can imitate, but never truly becomes her. That was probably her attitude towards the situation. Moreover, at the time, she saw no harm with Meer's existence, and there wasn't.

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One could even make the argument that if Lacus had intervened earlier on, Meer might not have lost her life.
Early or later didn't really make a difference. Meer was going to die one way or the other, especially since she was already too much into the whole Lacus cosplay gig. When Athrun offered to get Meer out, what happened? She refused.

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Exactly. Neither side would be completely justified in how they went about handling the situation and so the ensuing arguments could bring to light the underlying feelings and hatred beneath the guise of Junius 7 falling to Earth being the reason for the war.
Actually, I believed that both sides would have been justified in how they handle the situation, since both sides were more focused on rallying their own population. Dully done so by using Meer as a catalyst for uniting PLANT, while Earth could have used the fact that Dully is a liar to unite their own population. This would have led to what you mentioned earlier, a far more drawn out conflict.

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Originally Posted by Shinn Kamiyra View Post
The only real tragedy we saw happen with Lacus was in the original GS where her father was killed. Now, undeniably, that was a very sympathetic situation that gave this seemingly perfect heroine a sense of sadness in her existence; however, following that, nothing about her changed. She was still pretty much the same person she had always been.

Where was the anger? The frustration? Feelings of helplessness or an inability to cope with the loss of someone precious to her? One could make the argument that the lack of these even reinforces her role as the perfect heroine because she seems to be a loss for these very real human emotions.

I want these so-called "deep, dark secrets" so I can relate more to Lacus' character and try to understand why it is she's the way that she is. As she stands now, she's akin to a far away idealistic dream that no real person could possibly live up to.
The problem is, there wasn't much to her deep, dark secrets. There was no environment to foster those. She grew up in a privileged household, in a seemingly normal, if not slightly spoiled, family. Her only major emotional setback throughout GS was the death of her father, and by the time of GSD, I can see that part of her goal was to never allow such tragedy to be repeated to those who she held dear.

- Tak
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Old 2011-06-21, 13:52   Link #2179
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
If there is anything anyone can accuse Lacus of, its overconfidence. She probably thought anyone can imitate, but never truly becomes her. That was probably her attitude towards the situation. Moreover, at the time, she saw no harm with Meer's existence, and there wasn't.
I wouldn't call it overconfidence as much as near blind faith. She continually fights for what she believes in without even the smallest fraction of doubt as to dissuade her otherwise; again, the sign of a perfect heroine.

Lacus grew up under the watch of her father, the current Chairman of the Plants at the time; so she should've been exposed to plenty in terms of the political world and its far-reaching consequences. It's not so much that she should've realized Meer's existence as a threat, but the manipulative hand of Dullindal behind it. To have such a man as the Chairman of the Plants; she should've at least sensed the danger in that alone and confronted Meer to discover the truth behind what was happening.

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Originally Posted by Tak
Early or later didn't really make a difference. Meer was going to die one way or the other, especially since she was already too much into the whole Lacus cosplay gig. When Athrun offered to get Meer out, what happened? She refused.
There's no telling whether or not Meer was headed down a path to her death, regardless of what anyone did.

What effect Athrun had on her and what effect Lacus, the object of her obsession, would've had are two completely different things. It was in their final confrontation with one another that we saw the difference that their words had on her.

Had Lacus come and talked with Meer early on, before she had become increasingly encompassed by the role Dullindal had placed on her, I believe there should've been a very real chance that she could've come to her senses.

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Originally Posted by Tak
Actually, I believed that both sides would have been justified in how they handle the situation, since both sides were more focused on rallying their own population. Dully done so by using Meer as a catalyst for uniting PLANT, while Earth could have used the fact that Dully is a liar to unite their own population. This would have led to what you mentioned earlier, a far more drawn out conflict.
Well I say they would've been equally unjustified in how they manipulated their populations to rally together and fight against the other, so I suppose they break out even in the end one way or the other.

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The problem is, there wasn't much to her deep, dark secrets. There was no environment to foster those. She grew up in a privileged household, in a seemingly normal, if not slightly spoiled, family. Her only major emotional setback throughout GS was the death of her father, and by the time of GSD, I can see that part of her goal was to never allow such tragedy to be repeated to those who she held dear.

- Tak
I have to disagree. We weren't really shown much of anything about Lacus' childhood beyond the scope of a random flashback here and there.

When did she ever learn how to pilot a mobile suit, by the way, as was shown when she assisted Kira in bringing the Infinite Justice down to Earth. That on its own could've provoked a whole series of questions and depth into Lacus' past.

What about her mother? We didn't see much of anything with regards to her. That was a total waste of material that could've opened up a whole new side to Lacus that we didn't know anything about.

In GSD alone, we didn't see any refreshing new set of circumstances that would've rekindled that spark to fight for what she held dear. Perhaps during the initial assassination attempt, one of her children could've been hurt or even killed. That would've been an awesome means by which to send Kira and Lacus storming back onto the battlefield.
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Old 2011-06-21, 14:16   Link #2180
Tak
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Originally Posted by Shinn Kamiyra View Post
I wouldn't call it overconfidence as much as near blind faith. She continually fights for what she believes in without even the smallest fraction of doubt as to dissuade her otherwise; again, the sign of a perfect heroine.
But we have no evidence to suggest that Lacus knew the extent of Dully's manipulation. At that time, Meer was probably nothing but a celebrity imitation, which is not at all uncommon. If anything, the only thing she could do at the time was to press charges for copyright and defamation issues.

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Originally Posted by Shinn Kamiyra View Post
There's no telling whether or not Meer was headed down a path to her death, regardless of what anyone did.
We also don't know how long Meer had assumed that role. One thing for sure, when she meet Athrun for the first time, it was shown that she was very well into that pretense, even down to wanting a piece of Athrun.

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Had Lacus come and talked with Meer early on, before she had become increasingly encompassed by the role Dullindal had placed on her, I believe there should've been a very real chance that she could've come to her senses.
We don't know that, and personally I believe it would have been useless. At the end, she was nothing more than bait to lure Lacus out, and it was an accident that she was shot.

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Originally Posted by Shinn Kamiyra View Post
When did she ever learn how to pilot a mobile suit, by the way, as was shown when she assisted Kira in bringing the Infinite Justice down to Earth. That on its own could've provoked a whole series of questions and depth into Lacus' past.
Thats like asking when did Kira ever learned how to pilot one himself, or when did Cagali ever learned to pilot one? In GS, Kira hopped into the Strike, and in a couple minutes, he tuned the entire Gundam under his fingertips. We learn from background information that Kira is extremely good at handling computers, but being good with hacking does not a pilot make.

And Lacus wasn't really piloting, at least not by Kira & co.'s standards.

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Originally Posted by Shinn Kamiyra View Post
What about her mother? We didn't see much of anything with regards to her. That was a total waste of material that could've opened up a whole new side to Lacus that we didn't know anything about.
What about Lacus' mother? What about Mwu's mother, what about Murre's mother? A mother is not necessary to foster character development. Its not necessary, imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinn Kamiyra View Post
In GSD alone, we didn't see any refreshing new set of circumstances that would've rekindled that spark to fight for what she held dear. Perhaps during the initial assassination attempt, one of her children could've been hurt or even killed. That would've been an awesome means by which to send Kira and Lacus storming back onto the battlefield.
All these suggestions were fine and dandy, but by the time Lacus and Kira entered the fray, a good chunk of the series had already been done and over with. Everything else were unfortunately, missed opportunity.

- Tak
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