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Old 2011-06-22, 23:30   Link #2201
Tak
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
In Destiny, she realized that being involved in the political scene meant that upholding your ideals isn't always easy to do. And since she can't fix her problems by just shooting at people, thus we get her current state in Destiny.
Not able to shoot at people is one thing, being dragged by the nose by the more powerful relatives even to the point of a forced marriage is quite another. Especially when she knew damn well it wouldn't solve any problems.

It simply doesn't change the fact that she was an inept politician who should have never sat on the throne in the first place.

- Tak
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Old 2011-06-22, 23:43   Link #2202
GN0010 Nosferatu
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Malchio brought him along when he went up to the PLANTs.
That guy on the island observing the battle between Kira and Athrun? How in the world did he get to the PLANTs so fast?

Seemed like it had been one day, or even just a several hours. Power of the time skip I guess.
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Old 2011-06-22, 23:44   Link #2203
monster
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Not able to shoot at people is one thing, being dragged by the nose by the more powerful relatives even to the point of a forced marriage is quite another. Especially when she knew damn well it wouldn't solve any problems.
And you know for certain that she knew that? Besides, I believe the marriage was arranged when she was young. If anything, Athrun was also probably a factor in her indecisiveness, being torn between duty and desire.
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It simply doesn't change the fact that she was an inept politician who should have never sat on the throne in the first place.

- Tak
And it simply doesn't change that this is how their government works. Again, like it or not, but don't act like Cagalli is suddenly a different character that came out of nowhere.
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Old 2011-06-23, 00:01   Link #2204
Tak
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
And you know for certain that she knew that? Besides, I believe the marriage was arranged when she was young.
I don't think I recall anywhere stating the marriage was an arranged one.

She thought marrying would retain Orb's independence & ideals, but reluctantly admitted that it wouldn't change the direction of Orb's foreign policy after Kira kidnapped, and confronted her about the issue.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
If anything, Athrun was also probably a factor in her indecisiveness, being torn between duty and desire. And it simply doesn't change that this is how their government works.
How their government works still does not change the fact that Cagali was led by the nose and became an inept politician as a result. She simply could not be the idealistic man her father was, the problem is, she never asked why her father was successful in maintaining that ideal while she failed?

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Again, like it or not, but don't act like Cagalli is suddenly a different character that came out of nowhere.
We don't need to pretend Cagali is a different character, we all know why she became the way she is.

- Tak
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Old 2011-06-23, 00:05   Link #2205
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Dianna and Lacus were indeed idealistic, but neither of them ruled out retaining a functional military organization.

- Tak
So did Relena, when she allowed Heero and Noin to build a military force in episode 31 of Wing.

And I don't know if Relena bought into this Total Pacifism philosophy.
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Old 2011-06-23, 00:11   Link #2206
Tak
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Originally Posted by Washu-Chan View Post
So did Relena, when she allowed Heero and Noin to build a military force in episode 31 of Wing.

And I don't know if Relena bought into this Total Pacifism philosophy.
Yet her goals eventually resulted in the end of Wing.

On the other hand, the Freedom is not about to be turned into scrap metal any time soon.

- Tak
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Old 2011-06-23, 00:17   Link #2207
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As for another comparison to UC/Turn A, isn't Lacus/Meer relationship supposed to be loosely based on the relationship between Puru/Puru Two and Dianna/Kihel? I'll admit that I haven't seen their respective shows?
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Old 2011-06-23, 00:26   Link #2208
Tak
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Originally Posted by Washu-Chan View Post
As for another comparison to UC/Turn A, isn't Lacus/Meer relationship supposed to be loosely based on the relationship between Puru/Puru Two and Dianna/Kihel? I'll admit that I haven't seen their respective shows?
Unfortunately, superficial resemblance is as good as it gets.

While Dianna and Kihel assumed each others' identity (mostly due to mutual agreement and prearrangement), they weren't doing so on the expense of their own.

Meer on the other hand...

- Tak
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Old 2011-06-23, 02:15   Link #2209
monster
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
I don't think I recall anywhere stating the marriage was an arranged one.
I didn't say you did. I merely stated that I believe the marriage was arranged beforehand, which is why Cagalli didn't flat out refuse. But I could be wrong, it's been a while.
Quote:
She thought marrying would retain Orb's independence & ideals, but reluctantly admitted that it wouldn't change the direction of Orb's foreign policy after Kira kidnapped, and confronted her about the issue.
Actually, she thought that the marriage would show the people that the government was united and strong. And Kira confronted Cagalli about whether her actions would really keep Orb safe, not whether her marriage would change Orb's foreign policy.
Quote:
How their government works still does not change the fact that Cagali was led by the nose and became an inept politician as a result. She simply could not be the idealistic man her father was, the problem is, she never asked why her father was successful in maintaining that ideal while she failed?
No, the problem was she didn't realize that not everyone in the government shared her ideals. That's why Cagalli was taken by surprise when the Orb fleet attacked her.
Quote:
We don't need to pretend Cagali is a different character, we all know why she became the way she is.

- Tak
And yet many people act like they ruined her character in Destiny for some reason. The fact is that her situation in GSD was diiferent than in SEED. It took time and effort, but eventually she adapted to her new situation (symbolized by her punching Yuna). It's just part of her development.

Just because Cagalli was this pro-action girl in SEED doesn't mean that she should suddenly be great in politics.
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Old 2011-06-23, 06:39   Link #2210
rakusukira
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Kira was a crybaby character in SEED.. but he was likable..

when Cagalli turned into the crybaby.. it wasn't that likable..

so I guess it all depends on how the writers presented it
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Old 2011-06-23, 11:26   Link #2211
Tak
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Actually, she thought that the marriage would show the people that the government was united and strong. And Kira confronted Cagalli about whether her actions would really keep Orb safe, not whether her marriage would change Orb's foreign policy.
How keep Orb safe? The obvious answer for Cagali was to retain Orb's tradition of being non-alignment. Cagali got married under her own imagination and false assumptions that it'd retain Orb's tradition. Kira simply forced her to acknowledge the truth (by slapping her out of her delusion, no less), that being married won't change things.

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No, the problem was she didn't realize that not everyone in the government shared her ideals. That's why Cagalli was taken by surprise when the Orb fleet attacked her.
Same problem faced by her own father, but while her father maneuvered through foreign and domestic politics, Cagali was unable to reproduced the same (although limited) success.

Moreover, the fleet that attacked her was doing nothing more than following orders. Why should they have behaved otherwise, especially when the current leader of Orb was no longer Cagali? When George Bush declared war on Iraq in 2003, there were a lot of opposition, but did that amount to a mutiny against the government? No.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
And yet many people act like they ruined her character in Destiny for some reason. The fact is that her situation in GSD was diiferent than in SEED. It took time and effort, but eventually she adapted to her new situation (symbolized by her punching Yuna). It's just part of her development.
We don't need to pretend they ruined her character, enough background information and leaked tidbits already led to that information. I'd like to believe the first part of what you said, and in fact, I did believe it, until I read my share of background information, the break between Morosawa and Shindou.

Second, while her situation was indeed different from SEED, she lacked the willpower she once possessed. Whatever fire she once had, she lost it in GSD. She cried and cried and cried, but never decisively resolved her own dilemma. There were many ways for her to counter the situation, but Morosawa decided she should just cry instead.

For example, if she had the same fiery resolve she once had, she would have busted Yuna into bits during their first encounter in battle. I can almost guarantee you the military would immediately shift heir allegiance.

- Tak
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Old 2011-06-23, 11:42   Link #2212
monster
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
How keep Orb safe? The obvious answer for Cagali was to retain Orb's tradition of being non-alignment.
Except SEED has proven that's not the obvious answer at all. The EA was determined to make Orb choose a side.
Quote:
Same problem faced by her own father, but while her father maneuvered through foreign and domestic politics, Cagali was unable to reproduced the same (although limited) success.
Except her father had strong support within the government. Many of whom died with him in SEED. So no, Cagalli is not in the same situation as her father at all.
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Moreover, the fleet that attacked her was doing nothing more than following orders.
Exactly my point, they were following Yuna's orders. But Cagalli thought that Yuna and her was supposed to be on the same side.
Quote:
Second, while her situation was indeed different from SEED, she lacked the willpower she once possessed. Whatever fire she once had, she lost it in GSD. She cried and cried and cried, but never decisively resolved her own dilemma. There were many ways for her to counter the situation, but Morosawa decided she should just cry instead.

For example, if she had the same fiery resolve she once had, she would have busted Yuna into bits during their first encounter in battle. I can almost guarantee you the military would immediately shift heir allegiance.

- Tak
Like I said, Cagalli was taken by surprise at the Orb fleet's reaction. And no, she wasn't about to fire on her own people. Her fiery resolve is used to fight for Orb, not against Orb.
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Old 2011-06-23, 12:01   Link #2213
Tak
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Except SEED has proven that's not the obvious answer at all. The EA was determined to make Orb choose a side.
And what was Orb's answer to them? A diplomatic version of the finger.


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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Except her father had strong support within the government. Many of whom died with him in SEED. So no, Cagalli is not in the same situation as her father at all.
And that same strong support was what made Cagali leader of Orb after the end of SEED in the first place. Orb is an oligarchy, not a monarchy. Cagali didn't just assume leadership because she was born privileged. She was a war hero who held onto her father's ideals dearly.

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Exactly my point, they were following Yuna's orders. But Cagalli thought that Yuna and her was supposed to be on the same side.
I do not believe she actually thought Yuna was on her side. She went out there because she wanted to persuade the military into shifting sides. Unfortunately, numerous factors and pressures made it impossible. Nonetheless, many individuals would later shift sides and join Cagali while the latter was on exile.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
And no, she wasn't about to fire on her own people. Her fiery resolve is used to fight for Orb, not against Orb.
She had no problems killing people in SEED. If she wanted to fight for Orb, then she should have put Yuna out of commission as soon as she could, instead, she waited and added to everyone's misery. Putting Yuna out of his misery does not equal to declaring war on his own people.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2011-06-23 at 12:14.
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Old 2011-06-23, 12:39   Link #2214
monster
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And what was Orb's answer to them? A diplomatic version of the finger.
And what did that get Orb? The death of its leaders and being annexed by the EA. I don't think Cagalli wanted a repeat of that.
Quote:
And that same strong support was what made Cagali leader of Orb after the end of SEED in the first place. Orb is an oligarchy, not a monarchy. Cagali didn't just assume leadership because she was born privileged. She was a war hero who held onto her father's ideals dearly.
Support of the people is not the same as support of the influential leaders in the government.
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I do not believe she actually thought Yuna was on her side.
If she didn't think that way, Cagalli wouldn't have agreed to marry him in the first place.
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She had no problems killing people in SEED.
That's not the point. The people she killed in SEED were not Orb citizens. Furthermore, Yuna was inside an Orb ship. What was Cagalli supposed to do? Shoot at the ship, killing other Orb citizens in the process? Again, Cagalli is not that type of person, both in SEED and in Destiny.
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Old 2011-06-23, 12:48   Link #2215
Tak
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And what did that get Orb? The death of its leaders and being annexed by the EA. I don't think Cagalli wanted a repeat of that.
So you get the death of its leaders and being annexed by ZAFT, not going to make much of a difference.

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Support of the people is not the same as support of the influential leaders in the government.
Being an oligarchy meant you'd have to retain the support of influential members in the government as well. She certainly had that, and the support of the military.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
If she didn't think that way, Cagalli wouldn't have agreed to marry him in the first place.
Again, Kira proved that she was delusional. She believed that joining Yuna would have retained Orb's safety and ideals. The safety of Orb from her perspective would have been first and foremost not being aligned with either side of the war. She made that pretty damn clear.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
What was Cagalli supposed to do? Shoot at the ship, killing other Orb citizens in the process? Again, Cagalli is not that type of person, both in SEED and in Destiny.
Or tear the ship open and point the gun at Yuna. Not very difficult to do, and threaten him at gunpoint. She can do that without killing other people in the process. Lets not kid ourselves, she had Kira and Andrew on her side, getting past them would have been unthinkable.

And what about the events leading to this encounter? Cagali had many opportunities even before Orb decided to shift their foreign policy to set things right. Yet, she repeatedly kept her friends and allies out of the loop. Her being in a different position in DESTINY does not offer an excuse for this to happen.

- Tak
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Old 2011-06-23, 13:06   Link #2216
monster
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So you get the death of its leaders and being annexed by ZAFT, not going to make much of a difference.
The difference is that the Seirans support the EA.
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Being an oligarchy meant you'd have to retain the support of influential members in the government as well. She certainly had that, and the support of the military.
If she did, apparently they were not enough. And she definitely did not have as much support as her father did.
Quote:
Again, Kira proved that she was delusional. She believed that joining Yuna would have retained Orb's safety and ideals. The safety of Orb from her perspective would have been first and foremost not being aligned with either side of the war. She made that pretty damn clear.
Again, the marriage is only tangential to Orb siding with the EA. Even without the wedding, Orb would still had sided with the EA.
Quote:
Or tear the ship open and point the gun at Yuna. Not very difficult to do, and threaten him at gunpoint. She can do that without killing other people in the process. Lets not kid ourselves, she had Kira and Andrew on her side, getting past them would have been unthinkable.
Yeah, well, you can have that in your own fanfiction, but you're no longer talking about Cagalli there.
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And what about the events leading to this encounter? Cagali had many opportunities even before Orb decided to shift their foreign policy to set things right. Yet, she repeatedly kept her friends and allies out of the loop. Her being in a different position in DESTINY does not offer an excuse for this to happen.

- Tak
Actually, the fact that Cagalli couldn't change Orb's foreign policy just proofs that she didn't have a strong enough support in the government.
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Old 2011-06-23, 13:18   Link #2217
Tak
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
The difference is that the Seirans support the EA.
You stated that Orb was attacked for its neutrality, and I am simply stating siding with either side would not have made much of a difference in the eventual outcome.

So the Seirans supported the EA, what happened? An attack by ZAFT that destroyed Orb (again) until Kira & co. came to the rescue.

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If she did, apparently they were not enough. And she definitely did not have as much support as her father did.
Simply stating she had majority support to be where she is. So she certainly had most of the families siding with her, she was just inept at maintaining that support. Either that, or its deliberately bad writing and a waste of an excellent VA.

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Again, the marriage is only tangential to Orb siding with the EA. Even without the wedding, Orb would still had sided with the EA.
Watch the episode where Kira smacked her. She actually thought getting married would have made a difference, Kira snapped her out of her delusion. If she never had the illusion that marrying would have made a difference, she would not have gone through with it and Kira would not have slapped her.


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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Yeah, well, you can have that in your own fanfiction, but you're no longer talking about Cagalli there.
Give me a break. If Cagali can punch Yuna half to death, pulling a gun and threatening him is child's play.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Actually, the fact that Cagalli couldn't change Orb's foreign policy just proofs that she didn't have a strong enough support in the government.
And my point is she didn't just have the government to call for support. For example, Cagali never contacted with Athrun while Orb was having such an upheaval. Likewise, she never bothered contacting Lacus, either. There were many ways to prevent a bad situation from becoming worse, but she never utilized any of them.

- Tak
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Old 2011-06-23, 13:32   Link #2218
wm4
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Give me a break. If Cagali can punch Yuna half to death, pulling a gun and threatening him is child's play.
Child's play.... I read that it means "easy", doesn't it ?

If it were really so, then resolving problems in China and Lybia were child's play, also.
Just kidnapping the leaders and punch them half to death, then their country will
knee on you. I will leave it to others to argue.

I guess even a crap like Yuna still has some supporters.
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Old 2011-06-23, 13:37   Link #2219
Tak
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Rule number 1, never take Gundam politics seriously.

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Originally Posted by wm4 View Post
If it were really so, then resolving problems in China and Lybia were child's play, also.
Just kidnapping the leaders and punch them half to death, then their country will
knee on you. I will leave it to others to argue.
But hey, I didn't write GSD, though thats what happened.

As for China, what? Is there a popular uprising in China? Did I miss something? I find it peculiar that you are comparing China to Lybia, totally different playing fields, bud.

Although if the populace managed to get their hands on Muammar Gaddafi, then yeah, the uprising would be over.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2011-06-23 at 13:48.
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Old 2011-06-23, 13:48   Link #2220
monster
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
You stated that Orb was attacked for its neutrality, and I am simply stating siding with either side would not have made much of a difference in the eventual outcome.

So the Seirans supported the EA, what happened? An attack by ZAFT that destroyed Orb (again) until Kira & co. came to the rescue.

Simply stating she had majority support to be where she is. So she certainly had most of the families siding with her, she was just inept at maintaining that support.
Either way, the point is that Cagalli did not have the support she needed to keep Orb neutral.
Quote:
Watch the episode where Kira smacked her. She actually thought getting married would have made a difference, Kira snapped her out of her delusion. If she never had the illusion that marrying would have made a difference, she would not have gone through with it and Kira would not have slapped her.
Well, I did watch it again. And while Kira did spoke about Orb siding with the EA and Cagalli marrying Yuna, they were still two separate, though related, things. And you can see for yourself that Orb was already set on siding with the EA. So what Kira actually did was at least to stop Cagalli from marrying Yuna. Again, this has little to do with Orb's foreign policy. Their marriage was to show a united front within the ruling Orb family.
Quote:
Give me a break. If Cagali can punch Yuna half to death, pulling a gun and threatening him is child's play.
It's obvious that you still don't realize that Cagalli would not have risk killing her soldiers just to threaten Yuna.
Quote:
And my point is she didn't just have the government to call for support.
And my point is that's irrelevant, asking outside help at that point would only alienate Cagalli further from the other ruling members. At least with the way the Archangel kidnapped her, there was plausible deniability for Cagalli until she was able to regain control of the government.
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