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Old 2011-06-23, 13:56   Link #2221
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Either way, the point is that Cagalli did not have the support she needed to keep Orb neutral. Well, I did watch it again. And while Kira did spoke about Orb siding with the EA and Cagalli marrying Yuna, they were still two separate, though related, things. And you can see for yourself that Orb was already set on siding with the EA. So what Kira actually did was at least to stop Cagalli from marrying Yuna. Again, this has little to do with Orb's foreign policy. Their marriage was to show a united front within the ruling Orb family.
Then at this point we will just agree to disagree. No hard feelings.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
It's obvious that you still don't realize that Cagalli would not have risk killing her soldiers just to threaten Yuna.
Really? Orb troops were dropping like flies after Cagali made her presence after being onboard the Archangel. While Kira was maintaining his usual non-kill policy, he was nonetheless disabling suits from left & right. Andrew? He didn't give much of a crap. Both of them were actually waiting for Cagali to take decisively action, who knew she'd be crying and crying and crying?

Moreover, threatening Yuna with gun doesn't have to involve killing her soldiers. I am predicting Yuna would be too frightened at that point. If I remember correctly, didn't Yuna pissed in his pants?

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
And my point is that's irrelevant, asking outside help at that point would only alienate Cagalli further from the other ruling members. At least with the way the Archangel kidnapped her, there was plausible deniability for Cagalli until she was able to regain control of the government.
I didn't ask her to do so openly. Her father was pretty flexible in handing a situation like this, making secret arrangements and deals with EA to keep the latter off their back.

- Tak
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Old 2011-06-23, 14:10   Link #2222
monster
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
No hard feelings.
Of course not, it's been a while since I had something to discuss in the Gundam forum. It's always a fun thing for me.
Quote:
Really? Orb troops were dropping like flies after Cagali made her presence after being onboard the Archangel. While Kira was maintaining his usual non-kill policy, he was nonetheless disabling suits from left & right. Andrew? He didn't give much of a crap. Both of them were actually waiting for Cagali to take decisively action, who knew she'd be crying and crying and crying?
Yes, but that's Kira and Andrew. Again, Cagalli wasn't willing to fight Orb. The fact that she was fighting ZAFT and EA in SEED has no bearing on this. And why wouldn't she cry? Her world is literally falling around her and she doesn't know what to do. It's much easier to just fight when it's the other side than when it's your own people.
Quote:
Moreover, threatening Yuna with gun doesn't have to involve killing her soldiers. I am predicting Yuna would be too frightened at that point. If I remember correctly, didn't Yuna pissed in his pants?
Maybe not, but again, there's the risk.
Quote:
I didn't ask her to do so openly. Her father was pretty flexible in handing a situation like this, making secret arrangements and deals with EA to keep the latter off their back.

- Tak
Then it's too bad that her father and many of his supporters died before they could advise Cagalli on how to do that, isn't it?
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Old 2011-06-23, 14:22   Link #2223
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
And why wouldn't she cry? Her world is literally falling around her and she doesn't know what to do. It's much easier to just fight when it's the other side than when it's your own people.
To be honest, I did not expect Cagali to cry at all. She never cried in SEED while facing a problem, but took direct action. When I first saw that scene, I fully expected Cagali to drop the hammer on Yuna after all the humiliation Yuna had bestowed upon Orb's ex-leader.

Yeah, she could be angry... even sad, but crying was all she did. Its like her age suddenly backtracked several years. Why is that justified? Just because she is a girl? Having to kill her own people is one thing, crying in face of a problem is quite another.

Hell, Kira cried many times in the series, but he never done so facing a problem, or use tears to avert one.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Maybe not, but again, there's the risk.
If she is not able to take risks, she is not cut to be a leader. Then again, I stated quite early on she did not have the qualifications. Or at least she initially seemed like she did, but later lost it.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Then it's too bad that her father and many of his supporters died before they could advise Cagalli on how to do that, isn't it?
If she had paid attention while her father was in office, or possessed some form of cognitive ability, she would not need advisers telling her how to make behind-the-door deals or even private contacts with Lacus, Athrun or Kira. Hell, she doesn't even need to do the latter privately, there were many opportunities she could have contacted the latter and discussed the issue in person. She did none of that, while the options were certainly available. You cannot blame her ineptness on dead people, she is a grown women, she should have known before assuming office.

Then again, thats taking Gundam politics too seriously, and I think we should try avoiding that.

- Tak
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Old 2011-06-23, 14:40   Link #2224
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Why is that justified?
It's justified because different people can react differently and at different times of their lives. Crying has nothing to do with age or gender.
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If she is not able to take risks, she is not cut to be a leader.
Being a leader doesn't mean you take every risk.
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If she had paid attention
From the very first episode of SEED, we already knew that Cagalli doesn't know everything about what goes on in Orb. It's too late to complain about that now.
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Old 2011-06-23, 14:55   Link #2225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
To be honest, I did not expect Cagali to cry at all. She never cried in SEED while facing a problem, but took direct action. When I first saw that scene, I fully expected Cagali to drop the hammer on Yuna after all the humiliation Yuna had bestowed upon Orb's ex-leader.
First, the crew could not avoid the battles in SEED. Second, there were no
political factors that prohibit Cagalli from ordering a break.
You have to use politics to understand the Destiny scenario; perhaps you hate
to take politics in Gundam seriously, but I am afraid it is not avoidable.
(Actually, taking politics in Gundam seriously is the way to go!)

Understand that the Orb army listened to Yuna for good reasons, but not
Cagalli, the best she could do was watching. In additions, it was not politically
correct, at that time, for Cagalli to capture Yuna.
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
From the very first episode of SEED, we already knew that Cagalli doesn't know everything about what goes on in Orb. It's too late to complain about that now.
Not necessarily true. What she didn't know was that Orb was building powerful
mobile suits, that meant breaking the international peace agreement.

The report of Cagalli's ignorance has been greatly exaggerated.
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Old 2011-06-23, 15:06   Link #2226
monster
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Originally Posted by wm4 View Post
Not necessarily true. What she didn't know was that Orb was building powerful
mobile suits, that meant breaking the international peace agreement.

The report of Cagalli's ignorance has been greatly exaggerated.
The point is: How would Cagalli pay attention and learn how to make secret dealings when she's obviously not in the loop to know about their details.

Speaking of which, wasn't the whole Heliopolis deal controlled by the Sahaku family? I'm not sure if the Athha family knew about it, at least prior to the first episode of SEED.
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Old 2011-06-23, 19:29   Link #2227
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Cagalli isn't much of an effective political leader . as you may have noticed, all of her underlings doubt her leadership (it's a good thing her being an adopted daughter did not raise too many questions) that's why they ask a second opinion from the more-experienced-in-politics Seiran family.

her country is falling apart, her boyfriend left her, and she can't be that convincing to everyone.. I think I kind of understand her somewhat "emotional breakdown" in Destiny.. but her strong personality that faced problems "head-on" greatly diminished . her inspiring lines ins SEED were one of my faves. and it portrayed her as a person who sticks to her ideals.

but I guess that Seiran family already had plans to bring her under their fingers.. this is politics of course.. conspiracy is famous in it
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Old 2011-06-25, 11:02   Link #2228
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one of her dresses resembles a Hepburn dress she used, but the comparison is moot otherwise.
Which dress is that?

I'm guessing that it's not her first civilian dress, nor is it any of her Eternal uniforms.

Contrast with Relena, who not only resembles Hepburn, but her Queen of the World dress is an homage to Princess Ann's royal dress from Roman Holiday:



Here's his 2003 interview with Fukuda, after production with SEED was finished:

http://aeug.blogspot.com/2003_11_01_...64206584707878

I don't know how true it is, and I don't know how Fukuda is with interviews, so take it with a grain of salt.
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Old 2011-06-26, 02:43   Link #2229
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Washu-Chan View Post
http://aeug.blogspot.com/2003_11_01_...64206584707878

I don't know how true it is, and I don't know how Fukuda is with interviews, so take it with a grain of salt.
You are right, his interviews can only be taken with a grain of salt. FATkuda's statements usually result in one of three ways, occasionally truthful, contradictory, or WTF!?

Thank FATkuda for SEED, but damn, he is a worse troller than an undrugged Kawamori. I mean, I know hes fucking with us, but he isn't very good at it. And it just further proves that he isn't if FATKuda indeed insisted on a please don't record this in any manner or form procedure.

Lets look at some tidbits...

He wasn't really a hot-blooded-type character (Yzak), but his personality changed due to Seki-san's (Tomokazu Seki = VA for Yzak) acting.

Right, apparently FATKuda forgot that Tomo-kun can assume his Sagara Sousuke persona, who as we all know, is both calm and collected. Unfortunately, had that happened, he'd no doubt become a scene stealer and render an already dimwitted Athrun into a fucking moron!

Lacus was Audrey Hepburn.

We know this, we heard this, we know who inspired Lacus... but in what way, exactly? Sure, Hepburn played roles where she is royalty with some sense of holier-than-thou ideal, but if that is all that inspired Lacus, then the inspiration is at best superficial. Certainly I cannot recall any Hepburness based on Lacus' wardrobe. Hell, if anything, most fans remember Lacus in her combat-yukata than anything else she wears.

Kira's model was Tatsuya Fujiwara (played Shuya Nanahara in Battle Royale)

I knew it! I knew it!

He doesn't really like either of them (Fllay and Lacus)

Lacus notwithstanding. This was changed in Destiny for the better (whew), but...

DUH!! Of course Kira wouldn't like Fllay for the obvious reason that this was a woman who psychologically tortured and eventually caused a near miss for the former. I am surprised he didn't have more to say about Fllay.

I am quite happy this interview was done after SEED and not Destiny. Had it been, a lot of people would be waiting outside of his studio with pitchforks and torches.

- Tak
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Last edited by Tak; 2011-06-26 at 03:28.
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Old 2011-06-26, 05:44   Link #2230
kaito-kid
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Quote:
Lacus was Audrey Hepburn.

We know this, we heard this, we know who inspired Lacus... but in what way, exactly? Sure, Hepburn played roles where she is royalty with some sense of holier-than-thou ideal, but if that is all that inspired Lacus, then the inspiration is at best superficial. Certainly I cannot recall any Hepburness based on Lacus' wardrobe. Hell, if anything, most fans remember Lacus in her combat-yukata than anything else she wears.
He is talking about the design of the characters.. not the characters themselves.
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Old 2011-06-26, 09:18   Link #2231
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the creators of GUNDAM are very fond of this Hepburn woman, aren't they??

but perhaps so far, Mineva Lao Zabi is my favorite Audrey Hepburn rip-off (even if Unicorn isn't finished yet) .. I'm quite appealed to her strong (and very confusing) personality. Relena just kinda annoyed me.. and Lacus.. well.. I'm a Lacus fan (let's just end it there )
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Old 2011-06-26, 09:54   Link #2232
Tak
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Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
He is talking about the design of the characters.. not the characters themselves.
Thats why I said superficial, for beyond that, I don't see any additional resemblance, and I've watched a lot of Hepburn movies.

- Tak
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Last edited by Tak; 2011-06-26 at 10:07.
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Old 2011-06-26, 12:54   Link #2233
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What are some of the truthiness that you can find in his interview?

Here's what I can find:

*Dearka being turned face because Buster Gunpla sales were low
*Lacus being a flat character throughout the series, and even through Destiny
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Old 2011-06-26, 18:12   Link #2234
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Thats why I said superficial, for beyond that, I don't see any additional resemblance, and I've watched a lot of Hepburn movies.

- Tak
I don't see the resemblance either. Maybe the character designer jokingly told him that the design was based on Hepburn and Fukuda took it seriously.

Quote:
*Dearka being turned face because Buster Gunpla sales were low
This is not unique to Gundam.

Quote:
*Lacus being a flat character throughout the series, and even through Destiny
Fukuda never really tried to hide this. In fact I think they put a lot of emphasis on the fact that she was a character who knew what was going on, she was this 'more than meet the eye' kind of character.
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Old 2011-06-26, 20:35   Link #2235
Tak
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Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
Fukuda never really tried to hide this. In fact I think they put a lot of emphasis on the fact that she was a character who knew what was going on, she was this 'more than meet the eye' kind of character.
She was indeed more than meets the eye, and I cannot say she is a flat character. Although her character development in Destiny failed to achieve additional new heights, she nonetheless proved to be a very cunning individual in SEED, and by extension, in DESTINY as well.

- Tak
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Old 2011-06-28, 14:01   Link #2236
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
She was indeed more than meets the eye, and I cannot say she is a flat character. Although her character development in Destiny failed to achieve additional new heights, she nonetheless proved to be a very cunning individual in SEED, and by extension, in DESTINY as well.

- Tak
I think what hurts Lacus as a character is that she's the only major character who lacks a backstory, or at least needs more of her past revealed. We know about Kira's and Athrun's pasts, and Cagalli's past is also mentioned, as was Shinn's.

I don't know if her past was mentioned in Destiny, but what's mentioned in Seed is the smallest, IMO. Going by memory, here's what I can think about her past:
  • She was once close friends w/ Athrun
  • She agreed with her father's ideal of reuniting the Naturals and Coordinators together
  • The abandoned auditorium where Athrun hunted down Lacus was also where her debut took place
  • Her mother's ring, that was given to her before her mother died

Are Fukuda/Morosawa keeping Lacus's past as mysterious as possible? Who do they think Lacus is, Wolverine (pre-House of M)?
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Old 2011-06-28, 14:45   Link #2237
Tak
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Originally Posted by Washu-Chan View Post
I think what hurts Lacus as a character is that she's the only major character who lacks a backstory, or at least needs more of her past revealed. We know about Kira's and Athrun's pasts, and Cagalli's past is also mentioned, as was Shinn's.
Personally speaking, when I learned Athrun, Cagali and Shinn's past revelations, I was hardly shocked by them. They all took a rather predictive turn, and Shinn's was revealed from the start. When Cagali showed up in Episode 1, and mentioned about her father possibly betraying Orb, I knew from the start she was related to someone influential. I can say the same about Athrun.

On the other hand, Kira's past was the only one that left some sort of an impact.

Murre and Natarle did not have much of a backstory revealed in the series, with the exception to Murre possibly having a pilot as an ex. But they weren't necessary and did not make them better characters. While Gladys certain had a backstory, (a very intertwined one at that) I felt it had little impact on her character, and was not entirely necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Washu-Chan View Post
Are Fukuda/Morosawa keeping Lacus's past as mysterious as possible? Who do they think Lacus is, Wolverine (pre-House of M)?
Yes, it'd be nice if we learn how Lacus became the way she is, a cunning, calculating woman with the face of an angel. But what if Lacus had a backstory, what if she didn't? From a marketing standpoint, FATkuda did a great job at keeping her secrets shrouded. Besides, I'd rather not have a backstory than to have an iffy (not saying they are bad, but lacking the umff!) one, as in the case with many of the characters in SEED & Destiny.

- Tak
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Old 2011-06-29, 00:05   Link #2238
rakusukira
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Personally speaking, when I learned Athrun, Cagali and Shinn's past revelations, I was hardly shocked by them. They all took a rather predictive turn, and Shinn's was revealed from the start. When Cagali showed up in Episode 1, and mentioned about her father possibly betraying Orb, I knew from the start she was related to someone influential. I can say the same about Athrun.

On the other hand, Kira's past was the only one that left some sort of an impact.

Murre and Natarle did not have much of a backstory revealed in the series, with the exception to Murre possibly having a pilot as an ex. But they weren't necessary and did not make them better characters. While Gladys certain had a backstory, (a very intertwined one at that) I felt it had little impact on her character, and was not entirely necessary.



Yes, it'd be nice if we learn how Lacus became the way she is, a cunning, calculating woman with the face of an angel. But what if Lacus had a backstory, what if she didn't? From a marketing standpoint, FATkuda did a great job at keeping her secrets shrouded. Besides, I'd rather not have a backstory than to have an iffy (not saying they are bad, but lacking the umff!) one, as in the case with many of the characters in SEED & Destiny.

- Tak
Yep, Kira's back story was a great shocker to me.. It's kind of funny cause Kira was supposedly "saved" from his fate as an ultimate soldier when he was adopted by his uncle and aunt, then the incident at Heliopolis dragged him back to that supposed "fate" ..

I kinda liked that kind of twist

Shinn on the other hand there's nothing really special about him..

at the beginning of Destiny i was really looking forward to a Kira and Shinn rivalry since i thought Shinn blamed the Freedom for killing his parents (in truth, he was blaming the WHOLE of ORB)..
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Old 2011-06-29, 19:20   Link #2239
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Yep, Kira's back story was a great shocker to me.. It's kind of funny cause Kira was supposedly "saved" from his fate as an ultimate soldier when he was adopted by his uncle and aunt, then the incident at Heliopolis dragged him back to that supposed "fate" ..
I mentioned in one of my earlier posts that Durandal was more or less correct when he died: there was no escaping destiny. Was Kira always destined to be the perfect soldier, no matter how he tries to run away? As for Lacus, has she wanted to become the leader of the PLANTs?
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Old 2011-06-30, 01:23   Link #2240
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Originally Posted by Washu-Chan View Post
I mentioned in one of my earlier posts that Durandal was more or less correct when he died: there was no escaping destiny. Was Kira always destined to be the perfect soldier, no matter how he tries to run away? As for Lacus, has she wanted to become the leader of the PLANTs?
Well.. Kira is a perfect soldier with regards to his abilities in battle.. but he was saved from becoming a "bad" perfect soldier.. and instead used his abilities to end the conflict. as for Lacus, seeing that her father was a politician, she could not separate herself from politics so yeah.. even if she did lay low after SEED, she was also not able to escape her destiny that intertwined with politics, as was shown in Destiny
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