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Old 2012-01-30, 23:37   Link #3021
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
I think it's more like if the US Congress passes a law, the President can try to veto it, but the Congress can still overturn that veto.

So it goes back to whether there are enough people in the government who is against the alliance. Even Uzumi had his supporters. So, no, Cagalli alone can't oppose the alliance if the majority of the government decided on it.
I donít argue that, in that kinda situation, Cagalli would eventually lost. My focus is: isnít every decision supposed to be go through the Chief Representative? I mean, even if the Chiefís goal is lost due to vote, the final word must come from him/her in letting the EA know about whether they agree with the alliance or not, right? But Unato just didnít consult Cagalli further and suddenly theyíre allied with EA. A nation being an ally to other (group of) nation(s) is a big thing and I think it requires the head of the government (Cagalli, in this case) to do the announcement. Unless if you think otherwise and that not everything has to go through Chief Representative. If itís like that, I can see where we differ in opinion.
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Well, I don't know if that's the case with Orb. But even with Indonesia, I don't think you can say that the government have always uphold the Pancasila.
My government never created a single policy that violates Pancasila, unlike the case with ORB being formally allied with EA. Corrupt bureaucrats? Sure, there are always some in every government. Still, a few corrupt officials canít outwardly/legally violate a nationís principles in my case.
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
I don't think Cagalli would order an arrest of one of the noble families unless she has proof. And I don't think ZAFT is going to wait before they attack.
There are some photos of Djibril arriving in Seiranís residence (even shaking hands with the seirans) in the anime. Durandall can easily broadcast them and Cagalli (married to Yuna or not) wonít think twice to order the search and arrest even to the noble family since the choice is a noble family + Djibril arrested or ORB will be demolished.

And ZAFT did wait for the ORBís response toward the demand before attacking.
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Maybe not, but then again, we know from SEED that there are more than one factions on Orb. And not even the chief representative could control everything. That part should be clear.
Again, itís about more detail. The anime should answer the question of Ďhowí and Ďwhyí in a more proper manner. ĎThe Chief Representative canít control everythingí is already clear since SEED, but it didnít (officially) clearly define his/her authority in the anime (SEED & Destiny), right? And weíre talking about a complex government ruled by 5 noble families here, unlike any other countries in RL.
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Yuna's authority comes from being a Seiran, not from being Cagalli's fiancee.
Yes , I already know that well. Still, this is another case of lack of details. If we go by that definition Ďsince heís a Seiraní (which is too general, btw), then by that same logic, Unatoís wife, mother, brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, etc can all lead ORBís army above the generals & admirals like Yuna? If itís true, that is so messed-up (or just poor writing, once again ).
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
To be fair, I didn't say you have to like/dislike the result. I said, if the sittuation is not how you think it should be. In this case, you think the assassins should get at least a hit, even if you don't like to see your favorite characters getting hurt.
You said to me, ďif a situation isn't the way you think it should be, it must be lacking or flawed.Ē My answer is: NO, It depends on the situation whether the writer can provide good writing or not. For example:
Spoiler for Death Note ending:
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Old 2012-01-31, 00:11   Link #3022
winter45
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Originally Posted by Hiro Hayase View Post
After watching Gundam Seed Destiny for the 3rd time Shin Asuka isn't a a very appealing character.
Either is Athrun and kira or most of the secondary cast for that matter.

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Originally Posted by Hiro Hayase View Post
Unlike Kira, Athrun, Cagalli, Lacus, and the other characters "sad moments" in the Gundan Seed and Destiny it was far easier to sympathize with them in their grievances. .
2nd time round i just fast forward all the TEAM AA emo, teen drama fluff.. couldn't stomach it after the first time round.

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Originally Posted by Hiro Hayase View Post
However, in Shinn's case all I can see is a mouthy, ungrateful, impulsive, and vengeful brat..
When your biased of course your going to see that. You missed some of his good points. His dedicated, caring to those who are important to him. Hero of the slave laborers are just a few.

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Originally Posted by Hiro Hayase View Post
He's definitely not suited for being a soldier.
So is most of the main cast and secondary cast. Difference here is at least shinn picked a side and stayed with it and was ready to accept administration punishment when he broke the rules.

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Originally Posted by Hiro Hayase View Post
I hate it how nobody told Shinn that he killed Captain Todaka, again.
I hate it when people dont flip the coin and ask.. Why didnt Captain todaka tell shinn who he is. Im just being fair here...
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Old 2012-01-31, 02:10   Link #3023
monster
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I don’t argue that, in that kinda situation, Cagalli would eventually lost. My focus is: isn’t every decision supposed to be go through the Chief Representative? I mean, even if the Chief’s goal is lost due to vote, the final word must come from him/her in letting the EA know about whether they agree with the alliance or not, right? But Unato just didn’t consult Cagalli further and suddenly they’re allied with EA. A nation being an ally to other (group of) nation(s) is a big thing and I think it requires the head of the government (Cagalli, in this case) to do the announcement. Unless if you think otherwise and that not everything has to go through Chief Representative. If it’s like that, I can see where we differ in opinion.
Cagalli was present when Orb decided to join the alliance. She may disagree with it, but it's not like they went behind her back.
Quote:
My government never created a single policy that violates Pancasila, unlike the case with ORB being formally allied with EA. Corrupt bureaucrats? Sure, there are always some in every government. Still, a few corrupt officials can’t outwardly/legally violate a nation’s principles in my case.
And what happens when that principle threatens the well being of your country?
Quote:
There are some photos of Djibril arriving in Seiran’s residence (even shaking hands with the seirans) in the anime. Durandall can easily broadcast them and Cagalli (married to Yuna or not) won’t think twice to order the search and arrest even to the noble family since the choice is a noble family + Djibril arrested or ORB will be demolished.

And ZAFT did wait for the ORB’s response toward the demand before attacking.
Fair point.
Quote:
Again, it’s about more detail. The anime should answer the question of ‘how’ and ‘why’ in a more proper manner. ‘The Chief Representative can’t control everything’ is already clear since SEED, but it didn’t (officially) clearly define his/her authority in the anime (SEED & Destiny), right? And we’re talking about a complex government ruled by 5 noble families here, unlike any other countries in RL.
But what more details do you need? We know that Cagalli doesn't hold full control over the government. Details of how exactly the Orb government works isn't as important as the fact that Cagalli wasn't able to persuade the other members to agree with her. And thus, Orb joined in the alliance.
Quote:
Yes , I already know that well. Still, this is another case of lack of details. If we go by that definition ‘since he’s a Seiran’ (which is too general, btw), then by that same logic, Unato’s wife, mother, brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, etc can all lead ORB’s army above the generals & admirals like Yuna? If it’s true, that is so messed-up (or just poor writing, once again ).
It may be messed up, but it obviously has worked so far for Orb. That doesn't mean there's poor writing involved. And there's no indication that every member of the family would just start leading the fleet.
Quote:
You said to me, “if a situation isn't the way you think it should be, it must be lacking or flawed.” My answer is: NO, It depends on the situation whether the writer can provide good writing or not. For example:
Spoiler for Death Note ending:
Very well.

Last edited by monster; 2012-01-31 at 02:43. Reason: typo
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Old 2012-01-31, 04:50   Link #3024
Gundamx
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Quote:
There are some photos of Djibril arriving in Seiran’s residence (even shaking hands with the seirans) in the anime. Durandall can easily broadcast them and Cagalli (married to Yuna or not) won’t think twice to order the search and arrest even to the noble family since the choice is a noble family + Djibril arrested or ORB will be demolished.

And ZAFT did wait for the ORB’s response toward the demand before attacking.
With evidence or not, I doubt that Cagalli can even dare to move finger against Yuna.
She was just about to marry him without able to refused or even tell Kira/Athrun.
(She was just puppet leader.)

Last edited by Gundamx; 2012-01-31 at 08:44.
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Old 2012-01-31, 08:09   Link #3025
rakusukira
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Cagalli was just 18 at that time. I mean, an 18 year old girl can't manage a country as powerful as ORb.. yes, she was just a puppet leader at that time and most of her underlings were taking advantage of her youth and inexperience.. I find Cagalli's character very complex in Destiny because her skills as a leader were being tested. she was definitely flawed and reckless at that but she proved to be strong near the end.

Athrun wasn't helping the situation either. Instead of supporting Cagalli, he goes back to ZAFT (dumbass). Kira wasn't helping at all too, his doubt was presently there because he didn't want to chose between siding with Athrun or Cagalli.. but he was more or less siding with Cagalli because Lacus' life was attempted to be killed by highly skilled ZAFT special ops.

ORB's higher ups are all Aristocrats.. they are highly influential families. the family who placed the GAT series in Heliopolis back in SEED was an ORB Aristocrat too. I forgot the name
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Old 2012-01-31, 09:54   Link #3026
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
And what happens when that principle threatens the well being of your country?
Our principles are the very definition of virtues for every society in the world in our opinion (you can google it yourself) and it will never harm our people unless said people has become truly rotten. Other threat can only come from outside the country, and of course our people will defend our nation’s sovereignty at any cost.
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Cagalli was present when Orb decided to join the alliance. She may disagree with it, but it's not like they went behind her back. But what more details do you need? We know that Cagalli doesn't hold full control over the government. Details of how exactly the Orb government works isn't as important as the fact that Cagalli wasn't able to persuade the other members to agree with her. And thus, Orb joined in the alliance.
A more detail of how the government work in decision-making will be nice. Hell, what was shown in the anime is just Cagalli with other representatives discussing and debating with more time invested on Cagalli’s angered, confused and sad face + flashback + high & rethoric speeches rather than adding something insightful of how things actually work in that discussion/meeting. For example, we never clearly see the voting process (if there’s such a thing) that made Cagalli lost, or if there’s no voting, just how exactly she gave up her ideals at that meeting.

If you still disagree with me about this, then maybe it’s just a matter of preference. You’re satisfied with what given in the anime about this matter while I’m not. It’s as simple as that.
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It may be messed up, but it obviously has worked so far for Orb. That doesn't mean there's poor writing involved. And there's no indication that every member of the family would just start leading the fleet.
It is truly messed-up if some inexperienced royal family could just took control of an entire fleet. Can you imagine if suddenly Prince Harry (without experience) wanted to take command of an entire British Navy fleet in a war ? How’s that sound? Smart? No. Dumb? Yup. How can a country survive with that kinda system? Only in anime.

More Seiran start leading ORB’s fleets?! Oh, no! Yuna’s decision himself have cost enough ORBian's lives.
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Originally Posted by Gundamx View Post
With evidence or not, I doubt that Cagalli can even dare to move finger against Yuna.
She was just about to marry him without able to refused or even tell Kira/Athrun.
(She was just puppet leader.)
Oh, I think she will. Either that or she will be burned along with her people and her country. And we know how much Cagalli care for them. Heck, she mainly agreed to marry Yuna for the sake of her people.

While I don't argue you that she's kinda puppet leader,
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Old 2012-01-31, 15:08   Link #3027
monster
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Our principles are the very definition of virtues for every society in the world in our opinion (you can google it yourself) and it will never harm our people unless said people has become truly rotten. Other threat can only come from outside the country, and of course our people will defend our nation’s sovereignty at any cost.
Well, what happened with Orb is that they saw how they couldn't defend themselves. That's the reason for the alliance in the first place.
Quote:
If you still disagree with me about this, then maybe it’s just a matter of preference. You’re satisfied with what given in the anime about this matter while I’m not. It’s as simple as that.
Very well, we both said what we needed to on the matter.
Quote:
It is truly messed-up if some inexperienced royal family could just took control of an entire fleet. Can you imagine if suddenly Prince Harry (without experience) wanted to take command of an entire British Navy fleet in a war ? How’s that sound? Smart? No. Dumb? Yup. How can a country survive with that kinda system? Only in anime.
Well, if the British navy allied itself with a more powerful navy and Prince Harry is there primarily just to bring the British fleet along and relay command from the more powerful navy, then it doesn't really matter what experience he's had since he's more of a puppet than an actual commander of a fleet.
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Old 2012-01-31, 16:48   Link #3028
Hiro Hayase
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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Either is Athrun and kira or most of the secondary cast for that matter.

2nd time round i just fast forward all the TEAM AA emo, teen drama fluff.. couldn't stomach it after the first time round.

When your biased of course your going to see that. You missed some of his good points. His dedicated, caring to those who are important to him. Hero of the slave laborers are just a few.

So is most of the main cast and secondary cast. Difference here is at least shinn picked a side and stayed with it and was ready to accept administration punishment when he broke the rules.

I hate it when people dont flip the coin and ask.. Why didnt Captain todaka tell shinn who he is. Im just being fair here...
Well I don't like Shinn nor dislike him that much. On the surface he seems that way to me, the way his character presented bothered me. I feel that he could have been a better character if the directors gave him proper development.

I'll concede that point to you, since Athrun and Kira aren't suited for military either. I thought it was self-explanatory so I didn't need to mention it. Could you go into details about "Hero of the slave laborers are just a few." bit for me? I just didn't like the fact Shinn was haughty when people told him a different opinion and his grudge against ORB. It's not like he doesn't have any good points as a character, I didn't bother to list them.

True, Captain Todaka could have said something too, but the anime didn't go into details that much about it. Although, Shinn should have known that he was an high ranking officer of ORB, or else Captain Todaka wouldn't be able give a recommendation for Shinn to head towards PLANT. He didn't have much problems attacking ORB or blaming them for what happened to his family despite all that.

What reason did Shinn join ZAFT? Was it for revenge or for being an ally of justice? Yes he did pick a side and stayed with it, but his motives for joining lean a bit more towards revenge than anything else in the beginning. For example, Shinn was disturbed by his orders to kill Athrun and Meyrin, Rey helped him indirectly to make that decision and comforted him in later episodes to stay true to it.

I also skipped a bit of the teen drama stuff too, and the poorly executed recaps. I usually like watching the drama, although its not as appealing as the first time around. Well Gundam Seed and Gundam Seed Destiny are very different other Gundam series in the franchise. They do not follow usual model for Gundam series. I only watched it again for the nostalgia.
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Old 2012-01-31, 21:20   Link #3029
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Well, what happened with Orb is that they saw how they couldn't defend themselves. That's the reason for the alliance in the first place.
Then that makes those ORB people totally and truly pessimistic-unpatriotic-gutless bunch (not including the ORB’s military people who are brave and patriotic to their deaths) even when they have all those MSs, carriers and warships. Back then, when our nation are invaded and oppressed by the Dutch (VOC), our people still fight for the country knowing that they were totally outgunned. In fact, their ‘signature weapon’ at that time is a sharpened-bamboo. They fought using those sharpened-bamboos and some ‘borrowed’ fire-arms against muskets (during the first Dutch colonization), guns, riffles, bazookas, cannons, mines, tanks, fighter planes, etc. Do you think they didn’t see that they can’t defend their-selves with what they had? But hey, they won (after some great pain and suffering) and save our nation’s face and dignity. Freedom can cost very much and we have to be ready to sacrifice whatever we have (even ourselves when need to), for the greater good. If not, a country will only became a puppet of another more powerful country.

You might wanna say that being a puppet is okay as long as nobody’s hurt and ‘peace’ is kept. But, having no dignity and freedom is no good for us. ORB’s principles are truly similar to ours but the nature of the people seems different. The ORBians seems okay to be puppets as long as they have their ‘peace’.
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Well, if the British navy allied itself with a more powerful navy and Prince Harry is there primarily just to bring the British fleet along and relay command from the more powerful navy, then it doesn't really matter what experience he's had since he's more of a puppet than an actual commander of a fleet.
No need to mention more powerful ally. My focus and the fact that an inexperienced royal guy can just hop into a carrier/flagship and ordering (obviously far more experienced) admirals around during war is a huge problem by and of itself.

If the more powerful ally wanted to relay their directions, the admirals are clearly a better choice than some 'green' guy.
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Old 2012-01-31, 21:41   Link #3030
monster
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Freedom can cost very much and we have to be ready to sacrifice whatever we have (even ourselves when need to), for the greater good. If not, a country will only became a puppet of another more powerful country.
The Seirans and others are obviously willing to risk that in exchange for peace. And Cagalli, who has seen her own father forced to surrender Orb had no better option to offer at that time.
Quote:
If the more powerful ally wanted to relay their directions, the admirals are clearly a better choice than some 'green' guy.
That's not the case if the "green" guy is known to be on your side while the admirals may not necessarily be so.
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Old 2012-01-31, 22:30   Link #3031
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The Seirans and others are obviously willing to risk that in exchange for peace. And Cagalli, who has seen her own father forced to surrender Orb had no better option to offer at that time.
Yup, coz the alternative would be to fight to the death which people of ORB seemed to be unwilling to, even if it concerns the freedom of their own nation.
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That's not the case if the "green" guy is known to be on your side while the admirals may not necessarily be so.
I originally didn't focused on this. Still, I agree with you on this one in the case of Destiny.
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Old 2012-01-31, 22:32   Link #3032
monster
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Yup, coz the alternative would be to fight to the death which people of ORB seemed to be unwilling to, even if it concerns the freedom of their own nation.
Technically, Orb is still a free nation who has just entered an alliance with several other nations on Earth.
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Old 2012-01-31, 22:41   Link #3033
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Technically, Orb is still a free nation who has just entered an alliance with several other nations on Earth.
That 'free' term means nothing if they must put up with getting 'ordered around' by another country. The alliance is not UN, btw. There's no equality here. Some freedom it is....
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Old 2012-01-31, 22:55   Link #3034
monster
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What we know of the alliance is that the members of that alliance pledge to help each other, including giving military aids. Beyond that, you can't really say that there's no equality, at least, as far as the term of the alliance is concerned.

That is certainly a much better option for Orb, as a nation, than being occupied.
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Old 2012-01-31, 23:02   Link #3035
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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The problem is, at first, the 'alliance' in Destiny is used for the countries controlled by LOGOS. Then, they expand their influence by 'oppressing' other little countries to join them to add to their arsenal to be used after the Junius 7 drop incident.

Yes, technically speaking, the term 'alliance' is about equality.
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That is certainly a much better option for Orb, as a nation, than being occupied.
We already went through this some posts above, right?
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Old 2012-01-31, 23:59   Link #3036
monster
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We already went through this some posts above, right?
Yeah, you want Orb to fight a likely losing battle, but the Seirans prefer another solution if it meant avoiding a fight with the AF again.

You may disagree with that decision, but you can't really blame them if they don't want Orb to be occupied again.
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Old 2012-02-01, 00:09   Link #3037
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Yeah, you want Orb to fight a likely losing battle, but the Seirans prefer another solution if it meant avoiding a fight with the AF again.

You may disagree with that decision, but you can't really blame them if they don't want Orb to be occupied again.
Yeah, stand up and fight for your country! Coz once you're willing to be 'ordered around' by another country, you'll be ordered around forever. If ZAFT didn't destroy LOGOS in Destiny, ORB will be The Alliance/AF/LOGOS'/ b**ch
forever. This is not angry expression, just being lively . I do enjoy this argument.

I don't really blame them. I just disagree with them. Saying somebody 'gutless' is not a direct blaming isn't it?
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Old 2012-02-01, 00:10   Link #3038
monster
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I'm not saying you did, it's just an expression.
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Old 2012-02-01, 04:20   Link #3039
Gundamx
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Yeah, stand up and fight for your country! Coz once you're willing to be 'ordered around' by another country, you'll be ordered around forever. If ZAFT didn't destroy LOGOS in Destiny, ORB will be The Alliance/AF/LOGOS'/ b**ch
forever. This is not angry expression, just being lively . I do enjoy this argument.

I don't really blame them. I just disagree with them. Saying somebody 'gutless' is not a direct blaming isn't it?
Didn't Seirans become part of LOGOS?
(In other word they have equal foot with them.)
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Old 2012-02-01, 05:00   Link #3040
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Didn't Seirans become part of LOGOS?
(In other word they have equal foot with them.)
As far as I can remember, it’s never clearly mentioned in the anime whether the Seirans (or just one of them) is a member of LOGOS. Then again, it’s been a long time since last I see Destiny. So, my memory about Seirans -> LOGOS thing isn’t really clear. The Seirans helped Djibril, that’s for sure. Whether they’re equals or the Seirans are just puppets, I don’t remember. Do enlighten me if you remember the details.
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