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Old 2012-02-17, 22:38   Link #3101
justavisitor
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@Ledgem
you are right...up until now I am looking at the situation from archangel's perspective...

At the end of the day, Archangel still needs Lacus to survive, so why not played that card eariler when they decided to join the fight?
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Old 2012-02-17, 22:48   Link #3102
aeriolewinters
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My guess is that they assumed that the Archangel had been the one to attack the civilian craft that Lacus was on, and that they intentionally kidnapped her. That would be a rather dirty play.
The best thing to do, Have Lacus broadcast to all frequencies. Have her explain that someone found her and the Archangel Crew was hospitable enough to lend her some assistance.
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Old 2012-02-17, 23:01   Link #3103
monster
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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
At the end of the day, Archangel still needs Lacus to survive, so why not played that card eariler when they decided to join the fight?
Again, the Archangel crew can't be sure that using Lacus would get them anything. Even worse, it could give ZAFT more reason to hate them.
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Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
The best thing to do, Have Lacus broadcast to all frequencies. Have her explain that someone found her and the Archangel Crew was hospitable enough to lend her some assistance.
Well, for all intents and purposes, Lacus was locked in a room like a prisoner. They can't expect her to cooperate with them.
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Old 2012-02-17, 23:26   Link #3104
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Well, for all intents and purposes, Lacus was locked in a room like a prisoner. They can't expect her to cooperate with them.
Locked!? yeah, right. Also the intention is to ask her to broadcast. in order for the refugees in the ship to go home, Lacus would most likely agree with it.
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Old 2012-02-17, 23:33   Link #3105
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Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
Locked!? yeah, right.
Of course it was locked. Why else would they be surprised that she could get outside?
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Also the intention is to ask her to broadcast. in order for the refugees in the ship to go home, Lacus would most likely agree with it.
You're speaking from an audience's point of view who knows she would do it. The Archangel crew doesn't have the luxury of that knowledge.
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Old 2012-02-17, 23:37   Link #3106
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Of course it was locked. Why else would they be surprised that she could get outside?
You're missing the point, on this.
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Old 2012-02-17, 23:41   Link #3107
monster
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You're missing the point, on this.
Is it a point that is relevant to the current topic of discussion?
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Old 2012-02-17, 23:49   Link #3108
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You're completely forgetting that she herself told Murrue that she's Siegel Clyne's daughter. Thus making her a VIP. She's the PLANT Chairperson's daughter. It isn't rocket science to ask her to not make bloodshed of this, in spirit of taking her unharmed.
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Old 2012-02-18, 00:01   Link #3109
monster
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Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
You're completely forgetting that she herself told Murrue that she's Siegel Clyne's daughter. Thus making her a VIP. She's the PLANT Chairperson's daughter. It isn't rocket science to ask her to not make bloodshed of this, in spirit of taking her unharmed.
And as I said before, Murrue can't expect that Lacus, especially being the daughter of Siegel Clyne, could possibly put ZAFT in a disadvantageous situation just to save herself.

On the other hand, even if Lacus did agree, ZAFT would expect her to be returned, and Murrrue again can't expect that ZAFT would keep their promise of a ceasefire afterwards or even that Lacus would/could make sure that they do.

From Murrue's point of view, the best choice was to join the rest of the AF fleet and hope that their combined forces would be enough to fight off ZAFT's force. It wasn't until after the AF fleet was all but destroyed that Natarle decided to make the desperate choice of using Lacus. And Natarle probably only got the idea from Flay.
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Old 2012-02-18, 03:43   Link #3110
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Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
Well, as far as I'm concerned. There's a scene in Unicorn that I could compare this initial scene to: You guessed it: Mineva's hostage taking. Sure, the Feds were to kill her at that point, seriously, but it was done immediately, no questions asked.
I didn't watch it but from what I know is that Mineva as her faction leader right?

Than Lacus (at that time) =/= Mineva.
Because she was only civilian idol while Mineva was the leader of her faction.
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Old 2012-02-18, 05:14   Link #3111
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Because she was only civilian idol
They're exactly the same. What point of "the Chairman of PLANT" don't you get with his father Siegel?
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Old 2012-02-18, 05:27   Link #3112
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Regardless of any of that, there's still no sufficient reason to believe that Murrue could've successfully used Lacus to save the fleet. Even when they did do it, it was out of desperation and it still didn't change the fact that ZAFT still attacked as soon as Lacus was released.

So, again, if the point is to say that Murrue made a mistake in not using Lacus from the beginning, then that point itself is flawed. The only reason why we, the audience, know she should is because we know what kind of person Lacus is. But given the only thing that Murrue knew of Lacus, Murrue couldn't have expected Lacus to be act the way she would when Rau attacked.
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Old 2012-02-18, 10:58   Link #3113
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Hmm, the way I see it, it could have been guessed that Lacus would have been willing to help- she has shown no hostility, cooperated willingly, and volunteered information that she shouldn't have (such as being Sigel Clyne's daughter...).
Since the consensus here seems to be that she was playing stupid to protect herself, she wouldn't have revealed that particular bit of information if her goal was indeed just taking care of herself.
I doubt that from the perspective of the crew it would've been too hard to assume that she would be willing to sit for a broadcast, if that meant less bloodshed on both sides. And even if there's a chance she wouldn't cooperate, they had little to loose compared to the alternative.
Also, it's not as if her status in Plant would not be known to the Federation, they're hardly ignorant of the politics and influential people of their enemy.

Obviously dropping her off immediately after Zaft agreed wouldn't have helped them, so she would've had to be dropped off later at a location that is tba.
It's possible that Rau would've sunk them anyways, but it's not as if there were many other options, and it wouldn't have worsened the situation.

That said, it's not a nice tactic, but it would've been less offensive if used earlier.

edit: btw, why are people underestimating the influence of civilian idols? If we were at war, and someone held.. I don't know, Lady Gaga hostage, people would be upset xD
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Old 2012-02-18, 13:43   Link #3114
monster
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Originally Posted by SkullFaerie View Post
they had little to loose compared to the alternative.
Actually, there was still a possibility that they could've won the battle on their own without having to bring up Lacus. It wasn't until the AF fleet was destroyed that it became true that they had little to lose by then.

As it stands, bringing up Lacus in a warship in the middle of a battle, instead of waiting to use some diplomatic/neutral channel to release her, would only make it look like the EA captured her and was planning to use her all along instead of it being a humanitarian effort.
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Old 2012-02-18, 16:35   Link #3115
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Actually, there was still a possibility that they could've won the battle on their own without having to bring up Lacus. It wasn't until the AF fleet was destroyed that it became true that they had little to lose by then.

As it stands, bringing up Lacus in a warship in the middle of a battle, instead of waiting to use some diplomatic/neutral channel to release her, would only make it look like the EA captured her and was planning to use her all along instead of it being a humanitarian effort.
Yes, I know, I was thinking about that too... On the other hand, they knew they were facing a strong enemy that they themselves haven't been able to deal with and the fleet they were meeting wasn't necessarily expecting confrontation (what with having Mr Allster on board), so it was reasonably predictable that they would at least have a lot of trouble, seeing how the fleet was not doing well right from the start.
I'm not saying it's a good thing, or that that's what I would've done but maybe they should've considered it as an option, seeing as they didn't have much of a shot at surviving otherwise.
It's not as if Zaft would've reported home that the EA took in Lacus in a humanitarian effort anyway, regardless if that's what happened.
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Old 2012-02-18, 17:33   Link #3116
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Originally Posted by SkullFaerie View Post
Yes, I know, I was thinking about that too... On the other hand, they knew they were facing a strong enemy that they themselves haven't been able to deal with and the fleet they were meeting wasn't necessarily expecting confrontation (what with having Mr Allster on board),
Given how the war has been going on for nearly a year by this point, I think it's safe to say that a fleet of warships out in the open space should always expect a possible confrontation with the enemy, regardless of who is on board. Or perhaps, especially given who is on board.
Quote:
so it was reasonably predictable that they would at least have a lot of trouble, seeing how the fleet was not doing well right from the start.
That's why Murrue decided to help in the fight. Unlike the situation with AGE, the EA isn't exactly as helpless against ZAFT.
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I'm not saying it's a good thing, or that that's what I would've done but maybe they should've considered it as an option, seeing as they didn't have much of a shot at surviving otherwise.
Well, since the battle has started, I suppose their first priority is their battle station. Even Natarle, who people here have praised over Murrue, never suggested using Lacus until after Flay brought her to the bridge and came up with the idea.
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It's not as if Zaft would've reported home that the EA took in Lacus in a humanitarian effort anyway, regardless if that's what happened.
At the very least, the EA could've controlled how the information regarding the release of Lacus is conveyed to the public. The other alternative is to allow ZAFT to start the accusation.
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Old 2012-02-18, 21:09   Link #3117
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
The best thing to do, Have Lacus broadcast to all frequencies. Have her explain that someone found her and the Archangel Crew was hospitable enough to lend her some assistance.
To me, that would sound like those times when Iran or some other torture-utilizing group parades a prisoner to a camera, and the prisoner basically says 'yes, I was working for group X to bring about terror and destruction.' They're in the custody of a group that's probably threatening to kill them and their families; can what they say really be trusted?

Similarly, with Lacus being on board an enemy vessel, would that explanation really fly? It would probably seem like a very unusual thing to do in a war situation, picking up a stranded enemy civilian craft. And you just happened upon it randomly, and it happened to contain one of the most high-profile civilians among ZAFT? We know that's how it really played out, but if they didn't show us those scenes, I wouldn't believe it.
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Old 2012-02-24, 00:30   Link #3118
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Spoiler for Kira's new-old toy:
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Old 2012-02-24, 01:18   Link #3119
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Spoiler for Kira's new-old toy:
From where is that image taken? Or is it just a fan creation?
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Old 2012-02-24, 01:20   Link #3120
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I think it's from a magazine scan
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