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Old 2012-08-28, 04:31   Link #4181
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
So...what exactly was wrong with my replies? Were they typed out in a way that says, what you said didn't happen?
Sigh...I honestly don’t wanna do this again, but I feel oblidged to explain my point to you (again).
Let me give you an easy example from your own reply:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
Lowe, basically, made it POSSIBLE for those 2 to meet. Without Lowe, Lacus would probably have been made a sacrifice to the Blue Cosmos cause. Without Lowe, Kira would have died (and he rightly should have, because of all the ridiculous circumstances surrounding his survival), and Lacus wouldn't have MET him again. Think. It was Lowe who made sure Lacus was safe, and Kira had INTERACTED with Lacus as she floated out of the escape pod, and Lacus INTERACTED with Kira when she tended to his wounds, all thanks to Lowe saving him from the (laughably bad) Strike cockpit explosion. I am just saying that without Lowe, their "relationship" would have gone nowhere.
Yes. So what? I wasn’t talking about the reason, cause, or background setting of how Lacus can ended up rescued inside Archangel and met Kira. My focus here is the way Kira interacts with Lacus when they met. So, my focus here is inside the interaction itself, not outside. Thus, you bringing Lowe is out-of-context since it is outside the interaction. Get it? (If you don’t, then I’ll give up explaining to you. It’s no use)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
Why are you so getting mad about this when it's actually helping your "joke" list?
Why am I getting bothered (Not mad. You don’t wanna see me mad) to your reply? Let me repeat: because many of them add some out-of-context facts. And no, I don’t think that help with my “half-joke” list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
Huh? Excuse me? Who lost?
It’s you who lost. First, you obviously blame/accuse Mu of “doing something stupid”:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
Did he know about how Murrue's last loved one/boyfriend died? I think he did? In that case, Mwu should KNOW that trying to do anything akin to how Murrue's last boyfriend died is a definite no-no (seeing as Murrue is still hurting and traumatized from it). Yeah, they're in the military and accidents happen, but actively going in the way of a photon beam when it's a lost cause is probably the stupidest thing to do, seeing how he forced Murrue to see him die right in front of her eyes.
Then monster and I countered that complain of yours with these:
Quote:
Originally Posted by monster
So instead you want Mu to let Murrue and the Archangel crew just die in front of him?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk
My answer is exactly the same with monster. Do you want Mwu to let Murrue and all Archangel’s crew to be blasted to their deaths just so that “Mwu doesn’t cause further trauma to Murrue”? That is idiotic coz: (1) Mu didn’t have a choice except to protect her since he loves Murrue so much; (2) a traumatized lover with a chance of getting better is A LOT better than a vaporized lover.
Then you can’t provide clear answer about “why you consider what Mu’s doing is stupid”. Instead, you further complain about Archangel vs Dominion:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
It was a heated battle, everything was blowing up all around them, and god forbid those 2 battleships decided that hell yeah, they should have a showdown with all those pretty lazers, and disregard the entire fleet they belong to. I don't know, why exactly did those 2 engage again when they were probably needed to give support to their own faction? I didn't see Ptolemaios single out a battleship, nor have I seen the Diva do something like this too, it must be just a CE thing.
That’s pretty much losing an argument to me.

Then you post this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Now, what would Mwu have done. Become bait and lead the Dominion away from the Archangel? Given that situation (Murrue and Natarle were too busy trying to shoot each other's ship down), I doubt it would really be effective, but at least Mwu tried. I think the Strike was the only MS Archangel has, and it leaves Mwu severely outgunned/outmanned/whatever in case someone decided to go at the Archangel (not just the Dominion). Buster was busy playing with the Druggies somewhere else.

About the Mwu/Murrue argument, that's it, he didn't have a choice,....
If that’s the case, why would you call Mu’s action as (your own words) “stupidest thing to do” in the first place? Talking about turning 180 toward your initial complain . “Mu has no choice”, that’s what monster and I have been pointing out to your initial complain.
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Old 2012-08-28, 05:31   Link #4182
Znozzy
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Seriously, you guys all argue about Mwu doing something stupid, etc.

Mwu knew that the Strike protected Kira when the Aegis blew up in it's face with a broken cockpit hatch.

He knew what he was doing, hell, he even had a shield, there was no way he would die piloting the Strike.

Mwu = Smartest pilot in the CEverse.
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Old 2012-08-28, 05:43   Link #4183
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Seriously, you guys all argue about Mwu doing something stupid, etc.

Mwu knew that the Strike protected Kira when the Aegis blew up in it's face with a broken cockpit hatch.

He knew what he was doing, hell, he even had a shield, there was no way he would die piloting the Strike.

Mwu = Smartest pilot in the CEverse.
Actually, the one who said that Mwu is stupid so far is Eidolon Sniper. As of why he did that, don't ask me.
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Old 2012-08-28, 05:46   Link #4184
Znozzy
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Oh, it wasnt directed to you, and i was being sarcastic!

The Strike always protect its pilot, right? Maybe Mwu found that part in the manual!
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Old 2012-08-28, 06:10   Link #4185
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
The Strike always protect its pilot, right? Maybe Mwu found that part in the manual!
In that regard, Strike truly is the opposite of Epyon and Zero. They’ll make you insane just by piloting it!
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Old 2012-08-28, 10:13   Link #4186
Destined_Fate
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I think Mwu would be better placed as the most suicidal.
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Old 2012-08-28, 10:33   Link #4187
hero147
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Uhh.. No it doesn't. Kira loved Fllay and had a crush on her before SEED even started. He never felt that way towards Lacus, it was severely one sided. Lacus liked Kira because he was nice but he didn't show the same amount of affection to her. She was just a nice person that he happened to help. Had Fllay lived than there is no chance Lacus would have the courage to go after Kira, since he would be with Fllay, and Kira wouldn't have noticed that she's madly in love with him.
No dude, there's a huge difference between love and a simple crush. Fllay hardly knew Kira at the beginning of the series. She only knew him as "Sai's friend" so unless he stalked Fllay before the beginning of the series, he would have never realized what a manipulative bitch Fllay was.

Look, even before Lacus entered the picture for the second time, Kira ended the relationship. He knew he didn't want to go down that road and he didn't. Period. All the drama concerning these two could be brought back to Kira's guilt in not saving her father. If you rewatch the scene where Athrun brings Kira back to the archangel after his failed attempt at saving Fllay, he says something along the words of "she's someone I hurt." No, he didn't say he loved her, he said he hurt her, indicating not that he loved her, but he felt guilty because of her.

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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
And no, it wasn't natural. They met by chance and than they didn't meet for long periods of time. There was no real work up there. Kira just meets Lacus again and she's in love with him which he fails to notice.

At least Shinn showed interest in Lunamaria and was clearly jealous when she stopped hanging out with him to try and hang out with her idol, Athrun. Or Lunamaria's reaction what she was told to go into the city with Shinn since Athrun just isn't into her.
It wasn't natural because they met up by chance and didn't meet for long periods of time? That makes no sense, most people in the real world who get married meet up by chance as far as Western marriages go. I'm not sure about the long periods of time portion. I felt like they spent quite a bit of time in the archangel and especially the plants since they pretty much lived together.

And Lacus was clearly mesmerized by Kira by the time she was freed from being a hostage on the archangel which she even tells Athrun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Yes there was guilt. Kira was extremely vulnerable when Fllay died, Lacus used that moment to get in close with Kira. Had Fllay lived and been returned Kira wouldn't be so messed up and would be spending time with Fllay.
Fortunately for Lacus, Kira was never coerced to be with her by guilt. Big difference. And yes, had Fllay lived, Kira wouldn't have been so messed up because she was his friend. At the end of SEED, I doubt Kira would've ever stayed with Fllay after the fiasco that went on with Sai.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Stop with that BS statement, Shinn didn't want to kill them. He was ordered and as far as he knew they both betrayed ZAFT which means that they were war criminals. He was told to kill them to prove his loyalty, if Shinn didn't kill them than Rey would have and unlike Shinn there was nothing stopping Rey from drawing out their pain.

Shinn did what he had to do, had he not done it he would have been labeled a co-conspirator and who knows what would happen to Lunamaria since she has a close relationship with Shinn thus she would be seen in that light as well. Only Rey would have gotten away clean if Shinn didn't kill Athrun because he didn't have an attachment with either of the targets like those two did.

Furthermore they were best friends and Lunamaria isn't going to hate Shinn because he didn't have a choice in the matter and again. Shinn is the only one left that could understand what Lunamaria was going through and Shinn wanted her to hate him even though his hand was forced but she couldn't. This at least shows that Lunamaria isn't blind to hate, though understanding why Shinn did what he did helped. Had Shinn understood why Kira was fighting at Orb and why war was brought there I doubt he would have hated Kira even though Kira accidentally killed his family.

So again, as far as the two are concerned at the time that it was Athrun that forced that situation and it's his fault over what Shinn was forced to do.
It still doesn't change the fact that Shinn supposedly killed Meyrin and Athrun. Whether he was ordered to or not was irrelevant. Would you start a relationship with anyone that killed someone you loved?
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Old 2012-08-28, 10:38   Link #4188
Tak
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Holy crap, I am seeing flashbacks and deja vu from... almost 10 years ago!!

Hell, even Eidolon is back!

- Tak
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Old 2012-08-28, 10:40   Link #4189
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Holy crap, I am seeing flashbacks and deja vu from... almost 10 years ago!!

Hell, even Eidolon is back!

- Tak
That's to be expected considering SEED is re-airing.
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Old 2012-08-28, 10:48   Link #4190
Tak
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That's to be expected considering SEED is re-airing.
I guess I should be saying "welcome home" to myself, eh?

- Tak
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Old 2012-08-28, 11:52   Link #4191
Destined_Fate
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It wasn't just a crush. Kira crushed on Fllay when he first saw her before SEED but he did love her that's why he entered a relationship with her. When he found out that he was just using him and that she didn't feel the same way he ended it. By the time he saw Fllay again she was different and he tried to save the woman he loved since she figured out that Kira was the one she wanted to be with. So again, if Fllay was saved than Lacus wouldn't have had a chance with Kira.

Her death was the only thing that stopped Kira from getting with her, Lacus is just the other choice Kira had to settle with. As shown by their weak development and how he doesn't kiss, hug, or even share the same bed as her when Destiny starts.

You should pay more attention. It is'nt natural because they only met a few times and Lacus suddenly fell in love with him. Kira though did not feel the same way after a few meetings. He barely knew her so it made sense that he didn't love her, it was only after Fllay died and Lacus forced her feelings on him that Kira settled for her.

False, Kira was guilty and needed someone. Cagalli would have been the better choice because they were family. Instead Lacus comforted Kira when she knew he was vulnerable and used that time to try and get him to notice her. After all, Fllay was dead so there was no one left to serve as her competition or to call her out on taking advantage of Kira when he was hurting.

Yes it does, are you that blind? Lunamaria knew exactly why Shinn did what he did and that he had no choice. Unlike you Lunamaria isn't spiteful and knows that hating Shinn oer that would be stupid. Instead she emembered their friendship and that they after that event, which was painful for both of them, they still had each other at least.

And again, Lunamaria blamed Athrun for what happened and not Shinn since Shinn didn't awnt to kill either of them. There's a difference, as far as Lunamaria cares Shinn wasn't at fault, it was all Athrun.

If that person was my best friend that I had feelings for already and knew that they had no choice on the matter on top of feeling the same pain as me than yes. I would cling to them since only they would understand my pain and I know that they didn't want to do what they did but had no choice on top of already having feelings for them. Blaming them over something like that would be stupid and spiteful.
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Old 2012-08-28, 12:07   Link #4192
Tak
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Originally Posted by BladeEntity View Post
That's to be expected considering SEED is re-airing.
I guess I should be saying "welcome home" to myself, eh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Uhh.. No it doesn't. Kira loved Fllay and had a crush on her before SEED even started. He never felt that way towards Lacus, it was severely one sided. Lacus liked Kira because he was nice but he didn't show the same amount of affection to her.
Fllay staying alive would have not made an iota of difference in the relationship between Lacus and Kira. It was pretty clear to me Kira already had something for Lacus the first time they met on the Archangel. This was also the first time Kira ever had a real conversation with anyone, and the same possibly goes for Lacus as well, seeing how she hardly opened up to Athrun. Hell, Kira even went as far as volunteering to deliver Lacus back to the enemy, all the while suffering possible punishment in the process. And he done it without coercion from anyone. I cannot think of a single occurrence where Fllay and Kira actually had any, any meaningful conversation, let alone any deed Kira done for Fllay out of the goodness of his heart.

As for Kira not having a crush-like attitude towards Lacus? Of course he wouldn't, nevermind there is a big difference between a simple crush and actual commitment. He had a prior experience that crashed and burnt. He smartened up and thought long and hard about being engaged in another similar situation.

Lacus' love for Kira was hardly one sided either. Both of them were committing to a good amount of soul-searching on the matter. Her love for Kira certainly did not happen right away, and it was hardly apparent in SEED. Furthermore, Lacus was not entirely free of relationships either, for she might or might not have had a thing for Athrun before the latter gone rogue.

Forcefully patching Fllay and Kira together falls in the realm of a demented, sickening and ugly fantasy. Its unhealthy, and would only do harm than good.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2012-08-28 at 14:51.
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Old 2012-08-28, 12:32   Link #4193
Destined_Fate
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Yes it would. Had Fllay lived than Kira and her would have patched things up and been together. Lacus benefited greatly from her death because Fllay was the girl that Kira desired but lost. And no, that something between Kira and Lacus in their first meeting(Which came off as Kira being confused, especially since he jumped in bed with Fllay the moment she offered even after that event) was nothing compared to how awkward Kira was around Fllay and his clear jealous that she didn't notice that he was in love with her.

He did that because he was a nice guy and knew first hand what the EF would do to her considering that they just tried to screw Kira over and use him because he was a traitor coordinator.

Yes it was, Kira didn't love Lacus in that way until after Fllay died and he had no one else when she forced her feelings on him. Feelings that he never even noticed until she made them quite clear and he didn't have Fllay to love anymore.

Lacus had no such feelings for Athrun, their marriage was arranged due to reasons outside their control not because they had any interest in each other. Hence why Athrun didn't care that Lacus moved on to Kira or that he fell for Cagalli.

It wouldn't have been forceful at all, they had time to think and Fllay decided that she loved Kira and wanted to mend fences so they could be together. Besides, she would be far mre interesting for Kira than Lacus who was created to be too perfct so she could be with the Super Coordinator.

Lacus is a Politician, Idol, Captain, Gundam Keeper, Rich, Influential, overly kind to everyone, ridiculously Naive, Everything always goes her way, has many mobile suit friends she can just call up(Like the sudden appearance of Mobile suit pilots during the battle of Orb who came out of nowhere yet were ACE pilots), lack of anger when a normal person would be angry during situations like Meer's death, and the such. She was too perfect and did way too many things with a lack of emotions when she should have them. Fllay though was far from perfect and her flaws worked well alongside Kira who was supposed to be perfect but has how own issues as well.
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Old 2012-08-28, 12:40   Link #4194
Eidolon Sniper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Sigh...I honestly don’t wanna do this again, but I feel oblidged to explain my point to you (again).
Let me give you an easy example from your own reply:
You know, if you posted that really as a joke list, you wouldn't be really complaining about me taking "potshots" at it, because, that's ALL there is to it. I have no idea why you are taking offense to what essentially is a joke reply to your own joke reply, and how you are getting all unnecessarily wound up over nothing is beyond me.

Quote:
Yes. So what? I wasn’t talking about the reason, cause, or background setting of how Lacus can ended up rescued inside Archangel and met Kira. My focus here is the way Kira interacts with Lacus when they met. So, my focus here is inside the interaction itself, not outside. Thus, you bringing Lowe is out-of-context since it is outside the interaction. Get it? (If you don’t, then I’ll give up explaining to you. It’s no use)
Please refer to the explanation above.

Quote:
Why am I getting bothered (Not mad. You don’t wanna see me mad) to your reply? Let me repeat: because many of them add some out-of-context facts. And no, I don’t think that help with my “half-joke” list.
Uh...that's the joke? OK, if you insist, then without Lowe, that interaction between Kira and Lacus at the PLANTs NEVER HAPPENED, and going by your joke list, it's one of those things that you pointed out as being one of the incidents that you feel was essential in making up your list. Way to go shooting yourself in the foot.

Quote:
It’s you who lost. First, you obviously blame/accuse Mu of “doing something stupid”:

Then monster and I countered that complain of yours with these:


Then you can’t provide clear answer about “why you consider what Mu’s doing is stupid”. Instead, you further complain about Archangel vs Dominion:
That’s pretty much losing an argument to me.
So...pretty much you're going to say what Mwu did wasn't stupid at all? Where WAS Mwu anyway? Busy fighting with his rival and then just magically appears out of nowhere to block that one lazer from the Dominion. First of all, he shouldn't be even straying OUTSIDE the battle area (near the Archangel), because, they're essentially IN a battlefield. Secondly, anti beam shields don't work with photon beams. Or maybe they do, because they're also beams. Then, last, trying to shield a HUGE battleship with just a single MS deflecting the lazer beam is just really, stupid on its own. Mwu could have taken time to shoot down that Dominion cannon, and yes, you know, maybe things would have ended a bit differently. Last 2 are essentially just joke answers, or maybe not, take it as you will.

Oh, and BTW Obelisk, I'm a girl.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
That's just how Kira is.
Yeah...naahhh, Kira couldn't be, I mean he imagined Fllay instead of Lacus during that one scene!

Spoiler:
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Last edited by Eidolon Sniper; 2012-08-28 at 13:23.
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Old 2012-08-28, 12:41   Link #4195
Tak
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Yes it would.
You know, you might be right.

Every time Fllay and Kira had sex, a little girl with flowers, DIE.

How many virgins must be sacrificed to prolong this dark ritual?

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2012-08-28 at 13:06.
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Old 2012-08-28, 12:44   Link #4196
Destined_Fate
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None because Fllay wasn't going to use Kira anymore and did love him before her death. Had she returned to Kira their relationship would have gone much slower, since she did feel guilty over using Kira, as she tries to fix the wreck she caused and the pain Kira went through because he did love her.
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Old 2012-08-28, 13:16   Link #4197
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
You know, if you posted that really as a joke list, you wouldn't be really complaining about me taking "potshots" at it, because, that's ALL there is to it. I have no idea why you are taking offense to what essentially is a joke reply to your own joke reply, and how you are getting all unnecessarily wound up over nothing is beyond me.
I did say my “half-joke” list. That means I’m also “half-serious” with that list. And you came adding some out-of-context comments between my points that bothers me. It’s not whether it’s joke or not. It’s what you’ve done that’s wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
Uh...that's the joke? OK, if you insist, then without Lowe, that interaction between Kira and Lacus at the PLANTs NEVER HAPPENED, and going by your joke list, it's one of those things that you pointed out as being one of the incidents that you feel was essential in making up your list. Way to go shooting yourself in the foot.
First, what you said about Lowe is not a joke. It's sarcasm. Second, do you even understand the meaning of the word “focus”? For example: when your teacher asked you to read a book and focus on page 3, you focus on page 3, not page 5,6,7 etc. My focus is only inside the interaction. What you’ve done with your reply to me is expanding/distorting the focus of my original post, which I don’t want to talk about it. That’s it, I give up explaining more coz even to this point, you still can’t focus in your reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
So...pretty much you're going to say what Mwu did wasn't stupid at all? Where WAS Mwu anyway? Busy fighting with his rival and then just magically appears out of nowhere to block that one lazer from the Dominion. First of all, he shouldn't be even straying OUTSIDE the battle area (near the Archangel), because, they're essentially IN a battlefield. Secondly, anti beam shields don't work with photon beams. Or maybe they do, because they're also beams. Then, last, trying to shield a HUGE battleship with just a single MS deflecting the lazer beam is just really, stupid on its own. Mwu could have taken time to shoot down that Dominion cannon, and yes, you know, maybe things would have ended a bit differently. Last 2 are essentially just joke answers, or maybe not, take it as you will.
Ah, now I get your problem. You pretty much consider all the battles in SEED as stupid. That's why you view many of the characters actions are stupid. If that's the case, then we're done here. We clearly not on the same frequency.

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Oh, and BTW Obelisk, I'm a girl.
Good for you.
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Old 2012-08-28, 14:05   Link #4198
Eidolon Sniper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I did say my “half-joke” list. That means I’m also “half-serious” with that list. And you came adding some out-of-context comments between my points that bothers me. It’s not whether it’s joke or not. It’s what you’ve done that’s wrong.
Oh, OK? For somebody who was quick to point out that everyone should be taking your list with a grain of salt and getting riled up because a person was SO obviously wrong in answering the list with jokes, somebody's obviously missing the point here. So you're telling me that people should take your joke list seriously now? What?

Quote:
First, what you said about Lowe is not a joke. It's sarcasm. Second, do you even understand the meaning of the word “focus”? For example: when your teacher asked you to read a book and focus on page 3, you focus on page 3, not page 5,6,7 etc. My focus is only inside the interaction. What you’ve done with your reply to me is expanding/distorting the focus of my original post, which I don’t want to talk about it. That’s it, I give up explaining more coz even to this point, you still can’t focus in your reply.
Why? In what way are my replies saying that what you said didn't happen? I'm basically telling the same things but with jokes. And how am I NOT focusing? You're the one who's started to get angry about me obviously having jokes with your joke list. If you're just going to get mad at anyone who does that, then obviously you shouldn't post on the internet at all.

Then you accuse me of distorting/expanding on the "facts", and calling me out for being not exceptionally bright because, OMG, I COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT OF A JOKE LIST. Wait, I didn't DO that, SEED obviously did that for you, just typing in what the show actually had/explaining your joke list. Did you even take time out to read through what I just posted? Come on, tell me those things I said didn't REALLY happen. And then, tell me where in my posts I specifically stated that I denied everything you said. No example? Then that's your answer. If there was, I'd see the sense of why you would be so upset at me, but we're still talking about your joke list right?

Quote:
Ah, now I get your problem. You pretty much consider all the battles in SEED as stupid. That's why you view many of the characters actions are stupid. If that's the case, then we're done here. We clearly not on the same frequency.
It's called having an opinion. If you don't like my opinion, then what can I do? It's my opinion, and you have yours. Instead of getting angry at me for typing out the facts behind your joke list, then what's the best thing to do? You try and argue like everybody else on this thread. Just randomly telling me that I was crossing the line about a non existent threat to your joke list is pretty much avoiding the topic matter entirely, and telling me I was simply being ignorant and not really dealing with the explanations behind your name calling is pretty much the same too. So, if you think I was being so wrong on your joke list, please tell me why, how, where, what. Besides, this is already bordering on a no-discussion zone of things that shouldn't be talked about in this thread. If you have further problems with your joke list on how I am treating it, then you can just PM me. If you want to talk about SEED related things and discuss the reasons why you think my replies are wrong, then we can continue here.
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Old 2012-08-28, 16:00   Link #4199
kaito-kid
As I make you stop, think
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Europe - The Netherlands
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
You know, you might be right.

Every time Fllay and Kira had sex, a little girl with flowers, DIE.

How many virgins must be sacrificed to prolong this dark ritual?

- Tak


Welcome back!
Now if only 4Tran could make cameo as well..
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Old 2012-08-28, 21:56   Link #4200
Destined_Fate
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
I applaud you for trying Sniper but it seems like you're just talking to a wall now.
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