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Old 2007-09-16, 18:31   Link #441
Demongod86
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Originally Posted by Shinn_Kabuto View Post
I agree.

Ya know, someone said that Shinn is a human character. Kira sucked in GSD because he turned into a "god". Shinn turned into nothing but a villain w/ no reason at all.

If Shinn was given good character development....
You sort of have a tendency to turn into a god when you're the love interest of a goddess.

As for Shinn turning human, I've had two of my grandparents pass away over the course of my life (although not in front of my eyes), and I'm not an emo maniac.

I don't know about you guys, but when you find someone as emo as Shinn or Saucegay, give me a call. Oh wait, Chris Crocker...but that's a whole different story altogether... :roll:
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Old 2007-09-16, 18:31   Link #442
Shinn_Kabuto
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Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
So by comparison, Shinn had absolutely no right whatsoever to keep bitching. But I guess you're doomed to failure when you're a fusion of Anakin Skywalker and Saucegay. Too much impatience, stupidity, and emo in one package that nobody short of the Goddess could undo. And no amount of strength can measure up to a pilot piloting a gundam imbued with Goddess Dust.
Very funny.

Why he's a human character? Because for me, I think Shinn made mistakes that he didn't realize.

Spoiler for That's why:
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Old 2007-09-16, 19:02   Link #443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
Goddess: Mother died of illness when she was still young, father assassinated. Yes, the Goddess's mother died of illness by this logic: if she was alive, we'd see the Goddess's mother with her.
The only reason she wasn't b!tching or whining is because she had a mental breakdown...A little girl who talks to herself and robotic colored balls with nonsensical glee? If it walks like a nut, talks like a nut...Pffft,...Remember that first episode when Athrun walked in her house and his face was all "WTFBBQ I have to marry this nut?!?!?"...

Quote:
So by comparison, Shinn had absolutely no right whatsoever to keep bitching. But I guess you're doomed to failure when you're a fusion of Anakin Skywalker and Saucegay. Too much impatience, stupidity, and emo in one package that nobody short of the Goddess could undo. And no amount of strength can measure up to a pilot piloting a gundam imbued with Goddess Dust.
Wow, so Kira crying, weeeeezing, and basically having orgasmic body spasms from crying 60% of Gundam SEED is less emo (or non-comparable in your mind) than Shinn from GSD?? I don't mind people hating a character, but just be real with yourself...You hate him? Fine (as if I don't already have your opinion grained into my soul by now), but don't rationalize his emoness verses a character just as emo if not more in SEED's Kira Yamato....
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Old 2007-09-16, 19:26   Link #444
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You people just don't get it. Shinn isn't obsessed with his parent's deaths. In fact, he didn't give a sh*t about their deaths during GSD.

The only death he obsesses over is Mayu's. Its her cellphone, her flashback, and her detached hand that keeps popping up all over the place. And since none of the other characters in the show lost a sister, none of them can remotely relate to the pain and suffering that Shinn the Siscon went through (except for Luna, who lost a sister before she came back to life... That's why Shinn x Luna went humping after that).

Therefore Shinn >>>> all.
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Old 2007-09-16, 21:00   Link #445
Demongod86
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
The only reason she wasn't b!tching or whining is because she had a mental breakdown...A little girl who talks to herself and robotic colored balls with nonsensical glee? If it walks like a nut, talks like a nut...Pffft,...Remember that first episode when Athrun walked in her house and his face was all "WTFBBQ I have to marry this nut?!?!?"...



Wow, so Kira crying, weeeeezing, and basically having orgasmic body spasms from crying 60% of Gundam SEED is less emo (or non-comparable in your mind) than Shinn from GSD?? I don't mind people hating a character, but just be real with yourself...You hate him? Fine (as if I don't already have your opinion grained into my soul by now), but don't rationalize his emoness verses a character just as emo if not more in SEED's Kira Yamato....
SEED's Kira was *not* an emo. Recall that he didn't have a "him against the world" outlook on life. He was confused and sad and sensitive--if anything, he was the exact *opposite* of emo. He was an all around swell and really nice guy. A bit of a softy? Absolutely. He really went out of his way to be a "good guy" and more or less broke down whenever he had to do something that wasn't him being a "good guy".

This is why Lacus fell in love with him, more or less, *and* why he received the Freedom. If Kira was emo, he may have received the Freedom armed with a Twin Buster Rifle...(althogh emo+twin buster rifle may yield some fun results )

As for Lacus being nuts, she was home alone for a majority of the time with nobody to talk to but the haros. Although would you really classify Lacus as "nuts"? If Lacus is nuts, what does that make the rest of us? She's a deity, and the rest of us aren't -_-
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Old 2007-09-16, 21:44   Link #446
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Yeah, Shinn isn't obsessed with his parents deaths, I wouldn't even say he's "obsessed" with his sister's death. But it's definately a haunting memory. It's interesting to realize that none of the other characters were able to see the bodies of those they loved just laying on the ground right after it happened... With, I think the exception of Athrun and his dad, and let's face it, they were fighting to begin with, and then Athrun tried to kill himself. All the main characters from Gundam SEED lost people that were important to them.

Shinn lost everything and everyone, except for the clothes on his back and a cell phone.

When you think about it, everyone else had some people to keep living for, with the possible exception of Andrew Waltfeld, but he was quickly given a reason to keep living, and he still had those under his command like DaCosta. People he still knew and truly cared about. I don't think Shinn hooked up with any of his old friends from Orb after everything happened, and if he did, their time spent together couldn't have been anything permanent. So yeah, all the main characters of Gundam, The God, The Goddess, the Red Knight, The Tomboy Princess/Soldier, The coffee lover, they all lost a lot.

Shinn lost more.

Yes, Shinn is mouthy to Cagalli and Athrun. But they don't know everything he went through, just as much as he doesn't know what happened to them, and quite frankly, what happened to Shinn sounds worse. Kira lost his home, Tolle, Flay, and that ship full of civillians, and was (pretty much) forced to fight Athrun. Lacus lost her dad, and yes, we COULD assume that her mom died of an illness, but that isn't played up or brought up in the slightest, we can only infer she's dead, if my memory is serving me correctly. Athrun lost his mom on Junius 7, lost Niccol, lost his father, and lost other friends who were soldiers. He also had to fight against Kira. Murrue lost two men she loved, and killed Natarle. Cagalli lost that boy she was friends with in the desert, watched her dad and some buildings in a city that was important to her consumed in flames.

Shinn lost more.

Shinn lost his home, or at least, we can infer he did, as he didn't try and live in Orb anymore. Maybe this is because he blamed them, but either way, we can assume that was it for his home. Meaning none of his possessions anymore. He lost his friends in the same manner, the school he went to, the entire life he lived. And of course the entirety of his immediate family. That Shinn is at the point he is at in the beginning of SEED Destiny, hanging out with friends, in the military in a time of peace (a sign that he's trying to move on in life somehow), that he shows any interest in life, is, to me, a huge accomplishment. And Shinn is trying to do what Andrew Waltfeld did. He joined another side, a side different from the one he started on, in the hope that the others knew more about his sense of Justice... 'Cept, cinematically speaking, Shinn choose the wrong side while Andy made the correct decision. Shinn tries to do his best for the world, I think, but just doesn't make the correct decisions. That's why I like him, anyways.

Quote:
As for Shinn turning human, I've had two of my grandparents pass away over the course of my life (although not in front of my eyes), and I'm not an emo maniac.
I'm sorry for your loss. And I don't mean to sound insensitive. But Shinn lost more.
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Last edited by Azure22; 2007-09-16 at 21:47. Reason: Slight typo
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Old 2007-09-16, 22:10   Link #447
Demongod86
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Well, *did* Shinn lose more? I'd sort of argue that he didn't. Yes, he lost quite a bit, but here's the real issue: when Shinn fell, nobody was really there to catch him. When Kira and Athrun were at their lowest points, Lacus and Cagalli basically repaired the *enormous* amounts of damage that they had done to them psychologically over the course of the valentine war. Had they not been there, well, things may have turned out very much worse.

And after the war was over, Lacus and Cagalli were there again for Kira and Athrun, and Andy and Murrue were there as pals as well...

Oh, and Kira's parents (for all intents and purposes) were there too.

Which, on a tangent, if you wonder why Kikoku Inoue, aka BELLDANDY wasn't the voice of Lacus, it was that she was voicing Kira's mother. (No wonder he's on god mode O_O...when Lacus and Belldandy's alter ego are around you, of course that's bound to happen)

Shinn didn't lose more. He simply had nobody to catch him. Athrun and Kira fell from say two thousand feet into soft fluffy clouds. Shinn fell a thousand onto rocks.

I will still admit though, that he still took it not like a regular human person would. He basically had a complete grudge against the entire world, and when he got whiff of being all that, well, there went any hope of Athrun changing his course short of completely destroying him in the only way Shinn knew how--in a gundam vs. gundam match.
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Old 2007-09-17, 15:34   Link #448
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Shinn didn't lose more. He simply had nobody to catch him. Athrun and Kira fell from say two thousand feet into soft fluffy clouds. Shinn fell a thousand onto rocks.
Yeah, he fell harder, because he lost the people who would have been there to catch him. Note I say "lost." There were people who could've caught him, probably, but he just got separated from them. If he lost people who could've caught him, while Kira and Athrun didn't, it stands to reason that Shinn lost more.

For that fact, I'd say he took it like a normal human would. He did try and move on. Yes, he harbored grudges, but people do that. There's a reason that Hitler was able to come to power: the German people beared a grudge, and given the treaty of Versailles, that grudge was understandable. There are still Americans in the South who harbor grudges against the North for the Civil War. They live their lives, but don't you think that if a war sprung up between the North and the South again, those who still feel grudges toward the north would be in favor of that?

I'm not saying that Shinn shows the best in human nature, I'm saying he's human, and that's why I like him. I just wish he'd been given a better shot in the show. Shinn had the potential to show the most dramatic and most long-drawn out character development in the entire show, and the producers blew it because the opinion of the fans turned against him too quickly... So I'm irritable with people who still love Kira, and love Lacus, and love Cagalli and love Athrun and hate Shinn for hating them; especially if the person in question thinks that Gundam SEED Destiny should have been better. These fans, I believe, take a chunk of responsibility for GSD's problems.
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Old 2007-09-17, 16:14   Link #449
Shinn_Kabuto
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Originally Posted by Azure22 View Post
I'm not saying that Shinn shows the best in human nature, I'm saying he's human, and that's why I like him. I just wish he'd been given a better shot in the show. Shinn had the potential to show the most dramatic and most long-drawn out character development in the entire show, and the producers blew it because the opinion of the fans turned against him too quickly... So I'm irritable with people who still love Kira, and love Lacus, and love Cagalli and love Athrun and hate Shinn for hating them; especially if the person in question thinks that Gundam SEED Destiny should have been better. These fans, I believe, take a chunk of responsibility for GSD's problems.

I agree on what you've said, Azure22. Ya know what do we get people? Too much fanservice.

That's one of GSD problems. My friend said that Shinn's character development chances are mostly butchered by Athrun and Kira and are just used to show more of those two. These 2 guys stole the whole show from the 'supposed' main character and reduce him to a barking dog. Ya know, GSD should have character balance. And worse, GSD didn't even surpass SEED because of it.

Spoiler for I really laugh at this one:


Azure22:
Spoiler for This is an interesting info:
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Old 2007-09-17, 16:50   Link #450
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Yeah, he fell harder, because he lost the people who would have been there to catch him. Note I say "lost." There were people who could've caught him, probably, but he just got separated from them. If he lost people who could've caught him, while Kira and Athrun didn't, it stands to reason that Shinn lost more.
Well this is also partially what contributes to the cinematic portrayal of Shinn as being bad. We don't see anyone really catching him, but the Orb general is shown not only dragging him to the Orb refugee ships (possibly saving his life), but we also see the general with Shinn during a scene when they show Shinn basically spazzing out on the ship itself. I don't take this to mean that the general had a long-term relationship with Shinn, but it does mean that people were there for Shinn, trying to help him.

I could also argue and say that, during critical moments, Athrun and Kira didn't have support networks. Lacus left Athrun for Kira, and shortly after, Athrun's father (not really much of a support anyway) shot him. Athrun could have become like Shinn, desiring revenge, yet he still changed sides and did not do it for vengeful purposes. I'd argue that Kira didn't even really have an initial support network - in GSeed, why was he so upset about not being understood, perhaps even being used? That was a large chunk of the middle of the series, in my mind. But once again, he worked through it.

You could say that Shinn is more "natural" because maybe people don't always work through their issues. You'd be right, and this is where it comes down to opinion. Personally, I always liked the nearly superhuman way that many characters are placed into such terrible situations, but they manage to pull through. They sort it out, maybe sit a few episodes out due to injury/confusion, but they always come back doing what's right and just as strong as ever. When you have characters like that in the show, a character like Shinn no longer seems human, just retarded in development. In many ways, it felt as if he was going nowhere.

Quote:
Yes, he harbored grudges, but people do that.
A grudge against what? Orb? He had reservations about attacking Orb. He even seemed angry/dismayed when Orb joined the Earth Alliance - I initially thought that he couldn't believe that Orb had dismissed their ideals, after all, but it's possible that he had reservations about the idea of having to fight with Orb forces. While he did throw in plenty of language about burning all of Orb down, and destroying all of Orb's forces, he always seemed to hesitate and have reservations about doing so when it first came up that a clash with Orb would occur.

A grudge against war, and killing? Not very obvious, considering that he's seemingly one of the most bloodthirsty characters in the show. I thought he'd follow Kira in terms of disabling, but no longer killing, after he thought he'd shot down Meyrin. After all, Shinn knew the pain of losing a sister, and now he'd taken away Lunamaria's sister. But seemingly nothing changed from that. He expressed remorse for Lunamaria, but the cinematic portrayal of it didn't make Shinn seem too distraught over it considering that we only really had one scene of him crying with Luna over it.

A grudge against Freedom? Whether you believe that Freedom was directly, indirectly, or totally not responsible for his parents' death, it was involved in the fight during which his parents were killed. That'd be valid, although misguided on Shinn's part, in my opinion. But even when Shinn takes his revenge, he seems stunned, and once again, not a whole lot changes. He also doesn't seem so enthusiastic about having to fight Freedom a second time - possibly expressing remorse about his actions the first time.

Quote:
There's a reason that Hitler was able to come to power: the German people beared a grudge, and given the treaty of Versailles, that grudge was understandable.
It's much more complicated than a lust for revenge, and I'll leave it at that. Bringing real-world history and science into anime can be fun, but it's a bit too complicated.

Quote:
Shinn had the potential to show the most dramatic and most long-drawn out character development in the entire show, and the producers blew it because the opinion of the fans turned against him too quickly...
I agree that Shinn could have turned out way better, but I'd leave the blame with the producers.
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Old 2007-09-17, 20:22   Link #451
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Well this is also partially what contributes to the cinematic portrayal of Shinn as being bad. We don't see anyone really catching him, but the Orb general is shown not only dragging him to the Orb refugee ships (possibly saving his life), but we also see the general with Shinn during a scene when they show Shinn basically spazzing out on the ship itself. I don't take this to mean that the general had a long-term relationship with Shinn, but it does mean that people were there for Shinn, trying to help him.
Yeah, I thought about that one too, but the way I see it is that the general is the very beginning of Shinn's new start. He's not something that was there before Shinn's family died, and Shinn hit that rock bottom before the general was there to cushion his fall. Let's face it, is a stranger more reassuring, or a family member or friend? Yes, the kindness is still a beautiful and touching act, but it's not the same. Shinn still lost more than, I think, anyone in the show. And again, it's not as though the relationship with the general became a big thing with Shinn, as evidenced by how he didn't know that the dude who probably saved his life was out there in the Orb fleet. If anything of real, lasting significance had been spawned, I'd imagine they'd keep more in touch. I know you didn't say that, but pointing it out anyways.

Quote:
I could also argue and say that, during critical moments, Athrun and Kira didn't have support networks. Lacus left Athrun for Kira, and shortly after, Athrun's father (not really much of a support anyway) shot him. Athrun could have become like Shinn, desiring revenge, yet he still changed sides and did not do it for vengeful purposes. I'd argue that Kira didn't even really have an initial support network - in GSeed, why was he so upset about not being understood, perhaps even being used? That was a large chunk of the middle of the series, in my mind. But once again, he worked through it.
Yeah, during critical moments, some of the characters didn't have "support networks," but they still had stuff to go back to. When Niccol died, Athrun arguably had his comrades, but they weren't much help. He did, though, still have a home to go to at that point. And, at least in his mind, a fiance still. And he didn't know his dad was bonkers. So he still had somethin' to fall back on. Kira still had his parents, and had friends to fight FOR. Yes, maybe they aren't really supporting him as much as he'd like, but he still had a purpose, which is somethin' big, I believe.

Quote:
You could say that Shinn is more "natural" because maybe people don't always work through their issues. You'd be right, and this is where it comes down to opinion. Personally, I always liked the nearly superhuman way that many characters are placed into such terrible situations, but they manage to pull through. They sort it out, maybe sit a few episodes out due to injury/confusion, but they always come back doing what's right and just as strong as ever. When you have characters like that in the show, a character like Shinn no longer seems human, just retarded in development. In many ways, it felt as if he was going nowhere.
You're right, this is where it gets into a matter of opinion. As opposed to you, I've always like the characters frustrated with the world and who want to change it, but do the wrong thing for good reasons. The characters with tragedy that still haunts them, and characters who are a little bit nuts. Yes, I like emo characters, it works for me. The thing here is that I wouldn't have nearly as much problem with Kira and Lacus in SEED if they actually had real, personally terrible situations for them to overcome. They pretty much had all that in SEED, and everything else in SEED Destiny didn't seem to phase them. If they rose from the ashes, that'd be cool, but they just seemed to be at the top to begin with and never really get knocked down. Yeah, Shinn destroyed most of the original Freedom, but that's not much of a moral quandry. I liked Athrun a little bit more than I liked Kira and Lacus in SEED Destiny, but still, I kinda felt his arc was repetitive... Join up in the military after a tragedy, fight for that military against Kira, have his mech get destroyed, goes to join the same side as Kira. I'da kinda hoped they woulda done something a tad bit more original... Yes, there are differences, but when you can draw that many similarities, I think there's a problem.

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A grudge against what? Orb? He had reservations about attacking Orb. He even seemed angry/dismayed when Orb joined the Earth Alliance - I initially thought that he couldn't believe that Orb had dismissed their ideals, after all, but it's possible that he had reservations about the idea of having to fight with Orb forces. While he did throw in plenty of language about burning all of Orb down, and destroying all of Orb's forces, he always seemed to hesitate and have reservations about doing so when it first came up that a clash with Orb would occur.
I do mean a grudge against Orb. Yeah, he had reservations, but you saw his anger with Cagalli and Athrun, and whenever Orb does something he views as being wrong, (which are, ironically, times when Orb is betraying their ideals), he goes SEED and goes NUTS. You can't tell me he likes Orb when he's got that (in my opinion) kickass screaming face goin' for him as he's whackin' away at earth alliance ships and glaring at the Orb fleet in episode.. what, 12? Sounds right. And then when he sinks the Takamikazuchi... Same screaming face. I'd explain this as Shinn having an almost subconscious fondness for the country that he feels let him down tremendously.

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There's a reason that Hitler was able to come to power: the German people beared a grudge, and given the treaty of Versailles, that grudge was understandable.
It's much more complicated than a lust for revenge, and I'll leave it at that. Bringing real-world history and science into anime can be fun, but it's a bit too complicated.
Okay, yes, you're right, but you can't tell me Versailles and a grudge against the countries that imposed that treaty on them had nothing to do with WWII. It definately had a negative impace.

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I agree that Shinn could have turned out way better, but I'd leave the blame with the producers.
Meh, I dunno, I don't think people gave Shinn enough of a chance. They just wanted to see fanservice like the return of old characters they loved, which there's nothing wrong with, but jeez, that went so insanely overboard...
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Old 2007-09-18, 01:39   Link #452
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I'da kinda hoped they woulda done something a tad bit more original... Yes, there are differences, but when you can draw that many similarities, I think there's a problem.
I couldn't agree more with you here - it really felt completely unoriginal at so many points. It was like they were trying to redo SEED, only using a different scenario and different characters. I was in disbelief over how obvious it was, actually, during the scene when Shinn returns Stellar to the Earth Alliance. It was a direct rip of the scene from SEED when Kira returns Lacus to ZAFT. I don't even think I need to explain why, but I will say that it gave me a terrible feeling. In SEED, that was a really heart-warming scene. I really liked that part of the arc. But in SEED Destiny, it only served to make Shinn seem like a complete idiot. The fact that it was unoriginal and nowhere near as good as the SEED aspect it was emulating did contribute to more negativity towards Shinn on my part, even though I know it isn't like he was responsible for the story planning

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I do mean a grudge against Orb. Yeah, he had reservations, but you saw his anger with Cagalli and Athrun, and whenever Orb does something he views as being wrong, (which are, ironically, times when Orb is betraying their ideals), he goes SEED and goes NUTS. You can't tell me he likes Orb when he's got that (in my opinion) kickass screaming face goin' for him as he's whackin' away at earth alliance ships and glaring at the Orb fleet in episode.. what, 12? Sounds right. And then when he sinks the Takamikazuchi... Same screaming face. I'd explain this as Shinn having an almost subconscious fondness for the country that he feels let him down tremendously.
Shinn's relation to Orb is a bit screwy, which also contributes to my dislike for him (the fact that he seemingly wavers back and forth). He lashes out against Cagalli and Athrun over the Orb ideals, but then, as you said, berserks when Orb suddenly stops following the very ideals that he claimed to be ridiculous. For certain, SEED mode aside, this makes him more realistic as a human character.

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Okay, yes, you're right, but you can't tell me Versailles and a grudge against the countries that imposed that treaty on them had nothing to do with WWII. It definately had a negative impace.
I'm sure it had a contributing impact, but I think the fact that Germany was in a very depressed state had more to do with it. Combine it with a charismastic leader like Hitler and an ambitious goal to work toward - taking over/purifying the world, and putting the "superior race" in control - and you have a good recipe for an aggressive nation.

On that subject, one of the fascinating aspects of SEED has to do with the whole issue of genetic engineering.


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Meh, I dunno, I don't think people gave Shinn enough of a chance. They just wanted to see fanservice like the return of old characters they loved, which there's nothing wrong with, but jeez, that went so insanely overboard...
As I mentioned before, the big mistake was in putting the new characters at odds against the established old characters. I don't think I've ever even heard of a series doing that before, but it surely must have happened somewhere else. Usually, the old characters are either just as present as they were before, and the newer characters are gently added into the mix, or the old characters become more of a reference than an active role. At the start, there was theoretically a way to reconcile the differences - I completely expected the Minerva to defect and join the Archangel and Eternal, forming a new three-ship alliance. Shinn and the others would have been redeemed, and there would have still been plenty of room for Athrun and Kira time. But up to the very end, the new characters were put on the wrong end of the spectrum.

I was pretty disappointed that Yzak and Dearka received so little screen time, personally... (and why the heck is Dearka wearing the green uniform?)
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Old 2007-09-18, 12:44   Link #453
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Dearch--err Dearka mighta been wearing a green one so people wouldn't expect him to speak lots of Engrish and make a reality bubble of a bunch of swords =P.

As for making it through terrible situations, frankly, I think it's simple. If it's horrible now, it can only get better unless you lost one of your senses or a limb (although mechanical prosthetics Hot Ice Hilda style always work =O). Had Shinn put the past behind him rather than go emo nutso over it, he woulda turned out swell. Ironically enough, that's what Kira mentions to him on that evening in Orb about planting new flowers--and what Kira says to him in the *end* about...planting new flowers.

Kira made it through because he had a positive attitude and Goddess to repair anything that could become permanent. Athrun made it through because he wanted to get into Cagalli's pants, more or less.

I mean I don't know...I really can't think of a situation that I was brooding over for years and years and years.

I guess in the end, Shinn was simply weak at heart and so let his trouble overtake him, unlike Kira and Athrun, that essentially stayed on top of things, and when they fell behind, got back on the ball.
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Old 2007-09-18, 14:10   Link #454
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Alrightee, 'cept here's the thing: Holding a grudge and brooding are two different things. Shinn holds a grudge. He didn't just "brood." He moved to another country. He joined the army as a career, we can assume. He made friends. He did what he could with a bad situation. The war just triggered everything to come back to the surface. If you define "brooding" as "still not liking Orb," or "still caring about his dead family and sister," then yes, he's brooding, but if that's the case, it's not such a bad thing.

Now let's look at the way Kira and Athrun stayed on top of things: Whenever they were really down, there was, in fact, someone there for them, with the possible exception of when Niccol died for Athrun, and you'll remember Athrun's response to that was to try and brutally kill Kira. Shinn got on top of things in his own life himself.

I entirely disagree with your assessment of him being "weak at heart," Demongod86, just because he did all he could, he put all his strength and all his effort, into fighting for something that he believed in. He went out and did battle for the sake of bringing about a peaceful world - he's just cinematically portrayed as being on the exact wrong side. Yes, he destroys all the enemy mobile suits he can, but that's his job. I see no instance of him taking pleasure from destroying a mobile suit except after the fight with Kira, which was either avenging the death of his parents and Stellar or just, in his view, avenging Stellar.

So let's look at Kira, Athrun, and Shinn's actions in SEED Destiny:

Kira: Gets in Freedom when the lives of those close to him are in danger. Fights, from them on, for the sake of stopping the fighting, and later for defeating Dullindal's destiny plan. He tries to stop the Destroy from completely annihalating what was left of the city it was in.

Athrun: Helps the Minerva during the Armory 1 incident. Re-enlists in ZAFT, accepts the presence of the fake Lacus as something necessary, for a time. Fights against Kira until he's soundly beaten, because he believes ZAFT is in the right at that time, and has the right to defend itself. Runs away from ZAFT after Kira and the Archangel are shot down. Returns and fights against ZAFT with Kira.

Shinn: Joins ZAFT in, what we can assume, is an attempt to fulfill purpose in the world. After all, no going to college, military is probably a good option for a career to him. Fights under orders against the Earth Alliance. Completely destroys a fort being built when he finds out they're using slaves, then proceeds to liberate the slaves as best he can. Goes against orders in order to bring Stellar back to the Earth Alliance, fully aware of what the punishments could be. Fights against Destroy, then tries to talk Stellar out of what she's doing. Downs Freedom. Fights against logos, because he believes that is the correct action to take. This may or may not be brainwashing, but Shinn believes it. Loses in final battle.

If anyone there has a weak heart, I'd say it's Athrun, as opposed to Shinn. He seems too easily drawn into any side that might have an idea he agrees with, it seems very impulsive and a little naive. But maybe I'm just having problems 'cause the producers had him pretty much follow the same basic plot arc as he did in SEED... I'd also go so far as to say that, when Shinn helps Stellar, it is more noble than when Kira returned Lacus to ZAFT. Kira didn't know about military law, but since Shinn joined the army in a time of peace, we can safely assume that he's aware of punishments his actions can receive. He's just lucky that Dullindal valued him. Lacus, also, wasn't in any real danger of being killed, to my recollection... Unless you count Flay in later episodes. Stellar was going to die if she was left like this, and her body was going to be toyed around with to try and figure it out. Both were noble acts, but I'd say due to the circumstances, what Shinn was doing was more noble... Though Kira would have done the same thing, probably, in Shinn's place.

Shinn does not have a weak heart, he just disagrees with Orb and the Earth Alliance... And has serious, serious anger management issues. I'm not gonna deny he's got some problems, but all the characters do. Shinn's problem is just made more apparent cinematically.
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Old 2007-09-18, 16:20   Link #455
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Shinn: Joins ZAFT in, what we can assume, is an attempt to fulfill purpose in the world. ... Completely destroys a fort being built when he finds out they're using slaves... Goes against orders in order to bring Stellar back to the Earth Alliance, fully aware of what the punishments could be. Fights against Destroy, then tries to talk Stellar out of what she's doing.
I disagree with some assertions you made about Athrun, but we're focusing on Shinn so I'll keep it with this. First, I get the idea that Shinn joined ZAFT purely because there were two other options, Orb and the Earth Alliance, and he disliked both. I always felt that he blamed the Earth Alliance for actually killing his parents directly, and he blamed Orb for not being more aggressive and thereby letting it happen. He wanted to join a more active, aggressive force, and lucky for him he was a coordinator himself. Easy choice.

The fort that he destroyed, he destroyed for who-knows-what reason. He didn't see that they were using slaves first; as he was destroying the fort, the slaves attempted to flee, and that's when he noticed them. In yet another negative cinematic portrayal of Shinn, as he is destroying the fort, Athrun calls on him to stop because everyone there is defenseless and utter destruction is unnecessary. That's ten honor points to Athrun and a clown balloon to Shinn.

I mentioned before that Shinn's return of Stellar to the Earth Alliance wasn't a positive thing in my mind. He disobeyed orders, that's for certain. Did he know that he was going to be punished, or was he so full of himself that he figured that he wouldn't be disciplined? Think about it - the only character to ever disagree and follow up with some form of reprimand against Shinn's foolishness in the show was Athrun. Shinn's attitude was far too haughty for me to really believe that he truly thought he'd be making a sacrifice. Shinn also loses here because Stellar was a rather messed-up character, and she was also an enemy combatant. When Kira returned Lacus, Lacus was a completely harmless civilian (aside from being the epitomy of "good"), Kira didn't have full-blown feelings for her at that point, and he seemed pretty torn over it. After all, he'd brought Lacus to the Archangel and it wasn't known that they would do something so dishonorable/dispicable as to use her as a hostage. SEED was much more connected with my personal values (and I presume those of the majority) there, although I don't even know if SEED Destiny was trying to pull off a similar stunt with the Shinn-Stellar scenario.

But that combines wth the Destroy scenario to make Shinn look like a total fool. Shinn returns Stellar, totally naive, and Stellar returns to cause even more destruction. Again, this isn't about whether Shinn could have known or what have you, it's just that the way the series played it out made Shinn look very, very bad. I don't recall him really fighting directly against the Destroy, and the second he realized that Stellar was piloting it, all bets were off. Sure, he tried to talk to Stellar, which is commendable, but he didn't try talking to Kira. No, he was swinging his sword around then. You've mentioned his dialogue with Stellar during that scene a few times now; why do you see it as such a redeeming factor for Shinn?

Quote:
I'd also go so far as to say that, when Shinn helps Stellar, it is more noble than when Kira returned Lacus to ZAFT.
I addressed it above, but I wanted to take the opportunity to, as a big fan of that scene, give a big HECK NO to you for that statement

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Shinn does not have a weak heart, he just disagrees with Orb and the Earth Alliance... And has serious, serious anger management issues. I'm not gonna deny he's got some problems, but all the characters do. Shinn's problem is just made more apparent cinematically.
True here, but it's more than just that. Shinn seemingly never gets over his problems. Let's do another comparison: Kira's big trauma at the beginning of SEED is the destruction of Heliopolis. He brings it up a number of times when he faces off with Athrun and other ZAFT forces. After a while, it gets dropped. While we could argue that Shinn's problems are more severe than just losing your home, because Shinn also lost his family, that's not the point: the show portrays Kira as moving on. He encounters new problems, deals, keeps moving. The viewers get a sense of progression. Shinn felt completely stuck, on top of having some nasty problems.

We also don't really get a good sense of Shinn having a weak or a strong heart. With the exception of his passion for Stellar, he just follows orders when it comes time for destruction (and occasionally acted on his own accord for further destruction). Even when Shinn is made a member of FAITH (which made me mad as well), he never uses his authority. Do you realize that, for that entire time, he was purely taking orders from Rey? Even when Rey showed disapproval for Luna and such, Shinn just followed along. I suppose it shows that his feelings of passion were only really for Stellar.

Really, when I think of Shinn, I'm sort of reminded of Evangelion during those scenes when a unit would berserk. Everyone in the control room would get those wide eyes and have fearful looks on their face as the unit rampaged. Shinn goes into SEED mode (berserks), and everyone on the Minerva got to looking about the same.
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Old 2007-09-18, 17:39   Link #456
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The fort that he destroyed, he destroyed for who-knows-what reason. He didn't see that they were using slaves first; as he was destroying the fort, the slaves attempted to flee, and that's when he noticed them. In yet another negative cinematic portrayal of Shinn, as he is destroying the fort, Athrun calls on him to stop because everyone there is defenseless and utter destruction is unnecessary. That's ten honor points to Athrun and a clown balloon to Shinn.
Okay, maybe they changed this later. I don't know. But in episode 16, and I just rewatched this part to make absolutely sure, Shinn does SEE the civilians/slaves being shot by the earth alliance soldiers as they're running away after crawling out from under the fence BEFORE he starts destroying the base. And there's more. Shinn continued to combat Gaia, rather then go straight to annihilation, but Gaia retreated. As Gaia retreated, Shinn got word that that other ship, the Neila Bongo or whatever, had just been destroyed. As he gets news of that, tanks start firing at the Impulse, as well as... I guess gatling cannon armaments from around the base? I don't know what you'd call those, sorta like machine gun tourrettes or whatever. But anyways, Shinn was fired upon, and then he went through and took out all their defense. At that point, he starts blowing up everything the base had been working on, which is what Athrun gets pissed at him for. That's also all Athrun was around to see, save for when Shinn goes and removes the fences that were barring the slaves from their families. Athrun had not seen the earth alliance forces shooting at the slaves as they tried to escape.

So that is, to me, hats off to Shinn. Athrun, I think, was being too lenient. If Shinn hadn't eradicated the base and troops had been allowed to stay, if the base had been still in basic working order other than it's armaments, don't you think the remaining soldiers would have used their guns to force the poor civilians to work again? Or, assuming other ZAFT forces went in and monitored the area instead of having Shinn take it out, don't you think that some of the soldiers who were enslaving those people might just take the people hostage? They were using slaves, their moral compass isn't set to a high degree. I don't think Shinn was thinking about this, though. No, he was thinking about how these people were doing something horrible, and how they should be punished for it. I'm okay with that. Athrun later tells Shinn that he needs to understand how to use his power. As far as I'm concerned, what Shinn did was right, and Athrun was being too much of a pacifist to see that his way was ineffective.

Later, Athrun tells Shinn that if he goes out and just fights for his own beliefs and his own sense of justice, he is nothing more than a destroyer. The problem here is that, if you don't think and do only what you're told in a military situation, you're a destroyed without a moral compass. At least Shinn is thinking for himself, that's a trait I like. Later, Athrun does the same thing: He chooses to desert ZAFT so he can fight for justice and what he views as right and wrong. So does his advice only apply to people he wants to follow his commands and not to himself? He should practice what he preaches...

Quote:
I mentioned before that Shinn's return of Stellar to the Earth Alliance wasn't a positive thing in my mind. He disobeyed orders, that's for certain. Did he know that he was going to be punished, or was he so full of himself that he figured that he wouldn't be disciplined? Think about it - the only character to ever disagree and follow up with some form of reprimand against Shinn's foolishness in the show was Athrun. Shinn's attitude was far too haughty for me to really believe that he truly thought he'd be making a sacrifice. Shinn also loses here because Stellar was a rather messed-up character, and she was also an enemy combatant. When Kira returned Lacus, Lacus was a completely harmless civilian (aside from being the epitomy of "good"), Kira didn't have full-blown feelings for her at that point, and he seemed pretty torn over it. After all, he'd brought Lacus to the Archangel and it wasn't known that they would do something so dishonorable/dispicable as to use her as a hostage. SEED was much more connected with my personal values (and I presume those of the majority) there, although I don't even know if SEED Destiny was trying to pull off a similar stunt with the Shinn-Stellar scenario.
No, I seriously think Shinn thought he was going to be punished. He came back and stood before Captain Gladys with that glare on his face. He knew she was going to punish him, but he didn't think he did anything wrong, and I don't think he did either. Shinn's actions to return Stellar back to the Earth Alliance were done in the interest of saving her life and preserving her dignity. She was going to die and be torn open for examination and experimentation if she stayed away from the Earth Alliance. What was going to happen to Lacus if she didn't get back to ZAFT? And for the record, Shinn returning Stellar turned out to be a stupid move only because that's the way the series was scripted. Yes, I know that's how everything is, but for some reason, this just sticks out more. What if, after Kira had returned Lacus, someone held Lacus hostage against Kira? Or what if Lacus had turned out to be a spy? What Kira did was POTENTIALLY as stupid as returning Stellar - It just turned out differently. And Shinn at least asked for Neo's word- I can't go back and check anymore, but I don't think Kira made any effort to make sure Lacus wouldn't be used against him later. Yes, words are feeble and can easily be broken, but it's an attempt. I'd say that's worth something... And for the record, yes, hostage taking is low, but by taking her hostage, the lives of Kira's friends were spared. It wasn't a dumb thing, what they did - It was just dishonorable, and as far as I'm concerned, and this is a westerner viewed, I'd rather be dishonorable than die. Plenty of time to regain honor if you live for tomorrow.

Quote:
You've mentioned his dialogue with Stellar during that scene a few times now; why do you see it as such a redeeming factor for Shinn?
The honest answer is that I don't view it as much of a "redeeming" factor for Shinn as I just view it as "one factor." In that last instance I brought it up, I was trying to show how both Kira and Shinn tried to stop Stellar. Oddly enough, military force proved the right move, instead of negotiation (though if Kira hadn't appeared and scared Stellar before and given Neo reasons to warn her about him, Shinn's appeal might have worked. I'm not gonna say his presence there was wrong, he was doing the right thing- I'm just gonna say the other fights took part in seemed dumb to me). It's interesting, isn't it, that when military might is the right way to go, Kira uses it, and when it's the "wrong" way, Shinn uses it? What would you say if Kira had been the one trying to make the appeal to Stellar, and Shinn had gone in and killed her? I imagine a buncha pro-Kira people would come in saying "Wait, why did Shinn kill her, Kira was trying to talk her out of it!"

Quote:
Even when Shinn is made a member of FAITH (which made me mad as well), he never uses his authority. Do you realize that, for that entire time, he was purely taking orders from Rey? Even when Rey showed disapproval for Luna and such, Shinn just followed along. I suppose it shows that his feelings of passion were only really for Stellar.
I think by that point he's been manipulated quite thoroughly in the palms of Gil and Rey's hands. I also think the writers had given up on developing him by that point... At the very least, he still says he wants to go out into Orb instead of Rey, but that's not all that much. I dunno... After episode 37, the series dies for me in terms of plot... I love the scene where Shinn stabs Athrun's GOUF. The reason for that shall be explained right now:


Quote:
Really, when I think of Shinn, I'm sort of reminded of Evangelion during those scenes when a unit would berserk. Everyone in the control room would get those wide eyes and have fearful looks on their face as the unit rampaged. Shinn goes into SEED mode (berserks), and everyone on the Minerva got to looking about the same.
Yeah...I loved those scenes. oo;
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Old 2007-09-18, 18:07   Link #457
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The part in which Athrun comes down on Shinn for taking out that base I was stumped. It was the enemy. If it shoots at you and is trying to kill you...KILL IT!

As for Lacus, Kira acted out of naivete and compassion. And no, she couldn't have been taken as a hostage because at that time, Siegel Clyne was in charge, and he was more or less being a nice guy, and only fighting the alliance. The fact was that the alliance was doing these shady things with Orb technology to combat ZAFT. And guess what...if not for Kira being a really nice guy, the archangel would have gone boom in ep 34 of SEED.

I don't think that Kira *ever* fought as a soldier except at the very end of Destiny, and then only in name. While he was in Strike, he essentially was more or less fighting for his life. When he got Freedom, he fought to protect archangel because he was a really sweet and swell guy. In GSD, he was just being a good brother and not letting his sister get bitch-slapped (although I think he bitch-slapped her himself once) by the crappy government (Mina Sahaku, where were you?). And after getting Strike Freedom, well, it was essentially time to take down anyone that messed with him. Of course, not only did he have an uberpowerful gundam, he had an uberpowerful goddess on his side too.

As for Shinn, he never really displayed individual thought. At all times, he was a puppet to Durandall. He was Durandall's personal little weapon...well, he and Rey anyway. And indeed, it was shown that when it came down to weapon vs. weapon, soldier vs. soldier, Shinn had no equal. It wasn't until Athrun beat him down personally and Kira smashed the Messiah that Shinn's little bubble of follow-the-leader was burst, although only temporarily (because now he's part of team Lacus).

Probably the main reason that many would detest Shinn is that to put it bluntly...he was stupid. Kira and Athrun, through each other, essentially saw outside of orders and missions and mobile suits (although Lacus and Cagalli also played huge parts). Shinn was blinded the whole time, be it by his own "finally I have power" mentality, or by Durandall's sweet poisoning. At first, he disregarded Kira and talked smack to Athrun and it wasn't *until* he got his ass handed to him and saw those around him get put in their place like bad children did he actually *listen*.

Shinn understood only one thing, and that one thing was might. With might, he could simply destroy what was wrong with things. He rose to power through a gundam, and finally got his eyes forced open through a gundam.

Sorta fitting, if you come to think of it...
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Old 2007-09-18, 18:36   Link #458
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Probably the main reason that many would detest Shinn is that to put it bluntly...he was stupid. Kira and Athrun, through each other, essentially saw outside of orders and missions and mobile suits (although Lacus and Cagalli also played huge parts). Shinn was blinded the whole time, be it by his own "finally I have power" mentality, or by Durandall's sweet poisoning. At first, he disregarded Kira and talked smack to Athrun and it wasn't *until* he got his ass handed to him and saw those around him get put in their place like bad children did he actually *listen*.
At the end of the series, I agree more or less. I don't think Shinn was ever "stupid." I wouldn't argue for a second that he was an intellectual, but I wouldn't say he was stupid. Just like I wouldn't argue that Athrun and Kira are intellectuals either (though Kira is getting closer.) Oddly enough, the smart characters seem to be the evil ones. I would define Rau Le Crueset, Giblert Dullindal and Rey Za Burrel as all being smart... And I don't think Shinn just followed along "blindly." Yes, he was manipulated, but he was able to be manipulated because he agreed with the basic ideas the chairman was preaching, and was close to Rey. He thought their goals were worthy.

However, at the beginning of the series, Shinn was very independent, and he gets criticized for it all the time, mouthing off to Athrun and Cagalli, attacking the base... Going berserk when he's pissed off, returning Stellar and then running off and dropping her body in that lake. He was definitely independent, the only problem is that his decisions turned out, through bad luck and, in my opinion, poor plot development planning, wrong. Athrun's and Kira's decisions at any point in the real world could have turned out to be just as wrong. But they got off. Shinn just didn't get the love.

By the way, "sweet poisoning?" Isn't that what Rau Le Crueset said in Gundam SEED to Kira in the english version? "How long have you been fighting with your thoughts clouded by that brand of sweet poison?"
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Old 2007-09-18, 20:03   Link #459
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At the end of the series, I agree more or less. I don't think Shinn was ever "stupid." I wouldn't argue for a second that he was an intellectual, but I wouldn't say he was stupid. Just like I wouldn't argue that Athrun and Kira are intellectuals either (though Kira is getting closer.) Oddly enough, the smart characters seem to be the evil ones. I would define Rau Le Crueset, Giblert Dullindal and Rey Za Burrel as all being smart... And I don't think Shinn just followed along "blindly." Yes, he was manipulated, but he was able to be manipulated because he agreed with the basic ideas the chairman was preaching, and was close to Rey. He thought their goals were worthy.

However, at the beginning of the series, Shinn was very independent, and he gets criticized for it all the time, mouthing off to Athrun and Cagalli, attacking the base... Going berserk when he's pissed off, returning Stellar and then running off and dropping her body in that lake. He was definitely independent, the only problem is that his decisions turned out, through bad luck and, in my opinion, poor plot development planning, wrong. Athrun's and Kira's decisions at any point in the real world could have turned out to be just as wrong. But they got off. Shinn just didn't get the love.
I don't think the fundamental part of Shinn's character changed when you compare him in the beginning and towards the end. He treats those he respects/admires well, and those he don't respect, he either gives a mouthful, ignores or rebel against. If you look at his attitude toward Dullindal and Rey throughout the series, he's never once shown any of his rebellious nature towards them, but instead speaks with honorifics reeking of out-of-character politeness. However, his other authoritative figures, such as Athrun, Talia, Arthur, and his academy teachers (which Luna alluded to in one ep) didn't get that benefit (though I've always felt that Athrun did earn some level of respect from Shinn during the Central Asia arc, and Shinn started showing it by listening to him and acting politely, but it was quickly lost in the subsequent events).

IMO Dullindal and Rey are fully aware of this weakness and exploited it late in the series, when Shinn was more vulnerable than ever due to the events of Ep 37. So while his character did stagnate after that, I think what eventually happened was more or less a logical progression of his character based on what happened to him.

But to relate with you said, both Kira and Athrun have weaknesses that are vulnerable, and could have been exploited had the plot gone in that direction. So unlucky Shinn indeed.
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Old 2007-09-18, 21:55   Link #460
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Shinn understands power...He respects power and adheres to it...When Athrun showed Shinn his true power Shinn was ready to be his fanboy, but when that power began to shrink in comparison to his own he rebelled against that notion... A notion he believed to be the basic response one should believe in based on the horrific visual contaminant that was his family's demise...In particular his sisters', malicious and goreish demise...Again we're not talking about a building exploding, or a PLANT being cracked and you just learn of your loveones dying, we're talking about visual horror that would haunt most men for a long duration of their lives far exceeding the standard 50 episodes of a G-Timeline....

Honestly in the most basic and primal way of viewing things I don't see how he can be so harshly blamed for being so stubborn in his motivations to that end... He can't understand why one would fight to stop all fighting, that's ridiculous nonsense to most practical thinkers let alone high-strung teenagers being pushed as ZAFT's SOOPA-ACE...Hooping and hollering from a bunch of kids from Season 1 of whom he doesn't really know or care to know can't change that...In comparison Dullindal by all accounts was one of the most ingenious characters (mentally that is) in the history of Gundam yet he can't understand this either (Not just young seemingly dum guys with emo problems feel this way)...Rey in toxic contrast, the most staunch defender of both Dully and Shinn after talking with Kira now understands this (which is a joke of epic proportions) ...

My point is that Shinn lashing out against characters many held deeply in their hearts totally put him at a disadvantage and destroyed whatever fringe element of levity one could give to the character...And while most anime watchers just watch in glee over intensely trying to analyze, why would they even put out the effort to understand a noob character calling Cagali out?? I mean he was the most hated character in Gundam history for just calling out Cagali for her fathers' words! If you detach yourself from the warm liquid-filled womb of Gundam SEED's characters this isn't anything odd in the least, and it actually provides good drama and ideological conflict....But noooooo people don't want that, they just want you to bowdown to their fan-favorites and if you color too much outside the lines your tagged forever...

Now the writing and the total abandonment of an intended main character for the first time in literary history didn't help Shinn much, but within that mess of an evolution or character progression there are some very understandable and even precious aspects to his character...Unfortunatley nothing I say can cushion the blow of him forever remaining a negative asterisk in Gundam history...
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