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Old 2013-02-02, 05:50   Link #5821
monster
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
You don't have to use them. The whole point of nuclear weapons these days is that you won't need to use them.
You don'thave to, but the EA did, multiple times.
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An EA unwilling to once again invade a country that was more trouble than it was worth?
That EA doesn't exist in SEED and Destiny.
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Deterrence is a default move btw. It should be something they should try first anyway unless there's reason not to.
That reason would be that they're facing a powerful and unreasonable organization like the EA who's been proven willing to use nuclear weapons, willing to attack other nations without provocation, and capable of defeating Orb.
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What exactly is your point here?
That Orb is weaker than the EA. If you say that they provided no resistance, then that only strengthens my point. Why should they resist in Destiny when they didn't resist in SEED?

And even if they did put up a resistance, it still shows how much weaker Orb is than the EA.
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You think deterrence only requires nuclear power?
Not necessarily, but some kind of power/threat is needed. Otherwise, it won't be too much trouble to attack.
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And I'm trying to show you Orb's character
You pointed out that the Berlin incident happened after the treaty. What does pointing out this order of event have to do with showing Orb's character?
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Old 2013-02-02, 16:59   Link #5822
Haak
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
You don't have to, but the EA did, multiple times.
Frankly I just consider that to be a massively ridiculous plothole in itself. The whole concept of MAD and any sort of reasoning was pretty much throw out of the window.

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That EA doesn't exist in SEED and Destiny.
Well unfortunately the EA perspective on the Orb failure is something that was never expanded upon, nor the actual factor of deterrence at all so it's all just fanwanking really. But in reality it's not hard to assume that nation is not going to waste time trying to invade a nation again when they got nothing but costs out of it the first time.

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That reason would be that they're facing a powerful and unreasonable organization like the EA who's been proven willing to use nuclear weapons, willing to attack other nations without provocation, and capable of defeating Orb.
Actually, even that's not a good enough reason. Case in point; America satisfies all those qualities but that won't stop plenty of other countries, large or small from effectively deterring them.

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That Orb is weaker than the EA. If you say that they provided no resistance, then that only strengthens my point. Why should they resist in Destiny when they didn't resist in SEED?

And even if they did put up a resistance, it still shows how much weaker Orb is than the EA.
Right..well it seems you've forgotten the original point again so allow me to refresh your memory a bit.

Your original point was that EA couldn't be deterred because "Even after Uzumi destroyed what the AF came for, the EA didn't just leave, they still went on to conquer Orb."

I pointed out that the only reason they went on to conquer Orb is not because they couldn't be deterred from anything, but because they might as well since there was no resistance.

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Not necessarily, but some kind of power/threat is needed. Otherwise, it won't be too much trouble to attack.
Which is what I'm saying that Orb should be able to accomplish given that it supposedly has considerable industrial and military power and advanced technology.

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You pointed out that the Berlin incident happened after the treaty. What does pointing out this order of event have to do with showing Orb's character?
Because what matters is what Orb knows about EA before the treaty when deterrence was still an option. Orb can't freaking read minds. They didn't decide that deterrence was useless because they foresaw their doom at the hand of Destroys if they didn't...
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Old 2013-02-02, 22:27   Link #5823
monster
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Frankly I just consider that to be a massively ridiculous plothole in itself. The whole concept of MAD and any sort of reasoning was pretty much throw out of the window.
Nevertheless, this is the setting we have from the start of SEED. The reason why MAD doesn't really work in this case is because the EA (which consists of most of the Earth nations) are the only ones using nuclear bombs.
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Well unfortunately the EA perspective on the Orb failure is something that was never expanded upon, nor the actual factor of deterrence at all so it's all just fanwanking really. But in reality it's not hard to assume that nation is not going to waste time trying to invade a nation again when they got nothing but costs out of it the first time.
Actually, just by invading Orb, they made sure that Orb's technology/resources is either theirs or at least no one else's.
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Actually, even that's not a good enough reason. Case in point; America satisfies all those qualities but that won't stop plenty of other countries, large or small from effectively deterring them.
America does not satisfies all those qualities. When has the US ever used nuclear weapons in the first attack?
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Right..well it seems you've forgotten the original point again so allow me to refresh your memory a bit.

Your original point was that EA couldn't be deterred because "Even after Uzumi destroyed what the AF came for, the EA didn't just leave, they still went on to conquer Orb."

I pointed out that the only reason they went on to conquer Orb is not because they couldn't be deterred from anything, but because they might as well since there was no resistance.



Which is what I'm saying that Orb should be able to accomplish given that it supposedly has considerable industrial and military power and advanced technology.
And I'm saying that the EA would still be able to keep up with Orb's technological progress.

The fact of the matter is that there's no indication that Orb had closed the gap in power between it and the EA in the 2 years post SEED. So if Orb couldn't defeat the EA then, there's no indication that it suddenly could in Destiny.
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Because what matters is what Orb knows about EA before the treaty when deterrence was still an option. Orb can't freaking read minds. They didn't decide that deterrence was useless because they foresaw their doom at the hand of Destroys if they didn't...
I told you it's about EA's character. It's not about the Destroys. It's about the EA willing to attack anybody that doesn't follow along with it.

Orb knows that from first hand experience even before the Destroys were ever known.
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Old 2013-02-03, 14:55   Link #5824
Haak
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Nevertheless, this is the setting we have from the start of SEED. The reason why MAD doesn't really work in this case is because the EA (which consists of most of the Earth nations) are the only ones using nuclear bombs.
Actually, this is the setting we have from the start of Destiny, so I'd still say it's pretty damn contrived.

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Actually, just by invading Orb, they made sure that Orb's technology/resources is either theirs or at least no one else's.
And I'm sure that helped them phenomenally. Oh wait...

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America does not satisfies all those qualities. When has the US ever used nuclear weapons in the first attack?
That wasn't one of your qualities but it's true that US is nowhere near as unreasonable as EA.

But still, EA isn't some stupid superpower that just sends mobile suits where there's an enemy. It also has to consider strategy, advantages, disadvantages and the costs of fighting for enemy territory compared to another. A neutral nation that has proven to be nothing but pain in the arse should really be right near the back of their list, just like it was in the first season.

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And I'm saying that the EA would still be able to keep up with Orb's technological progress.

The fact of the matter is that there's no indication that Orb had closed the gap in power between it and the EA in the 2 years post SEED. So if Orb couldn't defeat the EA then, there's no indication that it suddenly could in Destiny.
But I never said Orb had to close that gap completely. Just enough to deter.

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I told you it's about EA's character. It's not about the Destroys. It's about the EA willing to attack anybody that doesn't follow along with it.

Orb knows that from first hand experience even before the Destroys were ever known.
It's about Orb's character. We've been talking about Orb's character right from the start. Your original point was entirely about Orb's character.
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Old 2013-02-03, 15:09   Link #5825
monster
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Actually, this is the setting we have from the start of Destiny, so I'd still say it's pretty damn contrived.
What do you mean? The EA has been using nuclear bombs since before even SEED. Junius 7 was a victim of a nuclear bomb attack.
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And I'm sure that helped them phenomenally. Oh wait...
So? It's called a preventive measure.
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But still, EA isn't some stupid superpower that just sends mobile suits where there's an enemy. It also has to consider strategy, advantages, disadvantages and the costs of fighting for enemy territory compared to another. A neutral nation that has proven to be nothing but pain in the arse should really be right near the back of their list, just like it was in the first season.
With any reasonable organization, I would agree. But Orb found out first hand in SEED that the EA was willing to attack them even though they were not an enemy of the EA. There's no basis for Orb to be able to expect a reasonable reaction from the EA if it once again refused to cooperate.
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But I never said Orb had to close that gap completely. Just enough to deter.
They don't have enough power to deter the EA from attacking.
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It's about Orb's character. We've been talking about Orb's character right from the start. Your original point was entirely about Orb's character.
My Destroy example was about showing EA's character.
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Old 2013-02-04, 14:38   Link #5826
Haak
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
What do you mean? The EA has been using nuclear bombs since before even SEED. Junius 7 was a victim of a nuclear bomb attack.
Yeah, and real preventative measures were immediately adopted. In this case Orb was dumb enough to believe a piece of paper would stop more nuclear attacks. I mean for tiny nation that had been invaded by the EA, you'd have thought they'de be the first to vie for nuclear power. And if they suffered from the April Fool's Crisis, they must have already had the knowledge.

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So? It's called a preventive measure.
And an abject failure considering the Orb's actual useful technical resources were either destroyed or fought against them anyway via Kusanagi. And the idiots never even found that Golden Gundam so whatever they found, Orb made sure it wasn't anything valuable.

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With any reasonable organization, I would agree. But Orb found out first hand in SEED that the EA was willing to attack them even though they were not an enemy of the EA. There's no basis for Orb to be able to expect a reasonable reaction from the EA if it once again refused to cooperate.
Actually, EA had a reasonable motive for attacking Orb to begin with: They badly needed a Mass Driver and Orb knew that too.

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They don't have enough power to deter the EA from attacking.
Technically they already did in the first season and the EA didn't know. But know they do.

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My Destroy example was about showing EA's character.
Okay. You do that...
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Old 2013-02-04, 15:01   Link #5827
monster
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Yeah, and real preventative measures were immediately adopted. In this case Orb was dumb enough to believe a piece of paper would stop more nuclear attacks. I mean for tiny nation that had been invaded by the EA, you'd have thought they'de be the first to vie for nuclear power. And if they suffered from the April Fool's Crisis, they must have already had the knowledge.
Again, you need NJC for that to work. Orb doesn't have NJC. And Orb was never as reliant on nuclear energy as other nations. They had other sources of energy.
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And an abject failure considering the Orb's actual useful technical resources were either destroyed or fought against them anyway via Kusanagi. And the idiots never even found that Golden Gundam so whatever they found, Orb made sure it wasn't anything valuable.
It was valuable enough simply by not letting Orb be a third-party that could secretly helped ZAFT.
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Actually, EA had a reasonable motive for attacking Orb to begin with: They badly needed a Mass Driver and Orb knew that too.
In other words, the EA is willing to get whatever they want/need, even if it means attacking a supposedly neutral party. And Orb knows this from first hand experience.
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Technically they already did in the first season and the EA didn't know.
Orb was attacked in SEED. If Orb employed any deterrence, it proved unsuccessful.
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Okay. You do that...
I did. And it shows that the EA wasn't the kind of people to accept a "No" for an answer. They'd be more than willing destroy you if they couldn't get you to cooperate.
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Old 2013-02-05, 15:55   Link #5828
Haak
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Again, you need NJC for that to work. Orb doesn't have NJC. And Orb was never as reliant on nuclear energy as other nations.
That shouldn't be a problem either though. Not only do they have an obvious source for that info (Archangel) the source already works for them anyway.

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They had other sources of energy. It was valuable enough simply by not letting Orb be a third-party that could secretly helped ZAFT.
And the result was that they made an enemy out of Orb thus proving that their actions were totally counter-productive.

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In other words, the EA is willing to get whatever they want/need, even if it means attacking a supposedly neutral party. And Orb knows this from first hand experience.
Unless they can succeed in deterring them. Again, all signs say Orb should be able to achieve that this time round.

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Orb was attacked in SEED. If Orb employed any deterrence, it proved unsuccessful.
On the first occasion yes, but ofcourse we knew that already. But my point was that it ought to prove successful in Destiny.

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I did. And it shows that the EA wasn't the kind of people to accept a "No" for an answer. They'd be more than willing destroy you if they couldn't get you to cooperate.
And I've shown that your reasoning is based on evidence Orb wouldn't know anything about and wouldn't have factored into their decision whether or not to deter EA, thus proving that it's entirely irrelevant.
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Old 2013-02-06, 00:11   Link #5829
monster
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That shouldn't be a problem either though. Not only do they have an obvious source for that info (Archangel) the source already works for them anyway.
Except Kira explicitly said he was not going to share the NJC technology with anyone, including the Archangel crew.
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And the result was that they made an enemy out of Orb thus proving that their actions were totally counter-productive.
They don't care if they had to make an enemy out of Orb.
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Unless they can succeed in deterring them. Again, all signs say Orb should be able to achieve that this time round.

On the first occasion yes, but ofcourse we knew that already. But my point was that it ought to prove successful in Destiny.
And my point is that there is no basis to support your claim that Orb could be successful in deterring an EA attack.
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And I've shown that your reasoning is based on evidence Orb wouldn't know anything about
It's not about Orb knowing about the Destroys. It's about Orb knowing that the EA is willing to attack anybody who doesn't cooperate with them.

So, again, the point of this example is to put the EA's character into perspective. I'm not using it to say that this specific event has any influence on Orb joining the EA.
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Old 2013-02-06, 03:35   Link #5830
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Except Kira explicitly said he was not going to share the NJC technology with anyone, including the Archangel crew.
True he did say this, however, at the time no one other than ZAFT knew how to create the NJC devices. But then Rau Le Creuset sent the data on the device to Blue Cosmos and the EA quickly mass-produced the devices. That makes Kira keep NJC technology a secret somewhat pointless. Also after the war, the Freedom(which had a NJC installed in it) was repaired and hidden in a secret underground base in Orb. It is possible that ORB were the ones that repair it and may have possibly obtain the NJC technology while in the process of repairing it.
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Old 2013-02-06, 04:27   Link #5831
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Originally Posted by sky black swordman View Post
True he did say this, however, at the time no one other than ZAFT knew how to create the NJC devices. But then Rau Le Creuset sent the data on the device to Blue Cosmos and the EA quickly mass-produced the devices. That makes Kira keep NJC technology a secret somewhat pointless. Also after the war, the Freedom(which had a NJC installed in it) was repaired and hidden in a secret underground base in Orb. It is possible that ORB were the ones that repair it and may have possibly obtain the NJC technology while in the process of repairing it.
As if the EA would give Orb nuclear weapon enabling technology after Orb was destroyed by them (well technically Cagalli's dad with the self destruct)

And I also seem to recall Kira stating he would also take care of all the maintenance for the Freedom, and just because you repair something, does not mean you get the data for it. Unless they had to fix the nuclear drive which was obviously not the case, as anything wrong with it was a potential nuclear detonation

As for all the posts above.....wonderful trip going through the whole conversation....remind me to never do something like that again

Everything is so subjective to the individual and all the plot holes and untouched parts of SEED does not really help either, everything is open to interpretation
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Old 2013-02-06, 04:44   Link #5832
monster
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Originally Posted by sky black swordman View Post
True he did say this, however, at the time no one other than ZAFT knew how to create the NJC devices. But then Rau Le Creuset sent the data on the device to Blue Cosmos and the EA quickly mass-produced the devices. That makes Kira keep NJC technology a secret somewhat pointless.
Not really. Just because more than one party has the knowledge that doesn't mean it's now alright to share the technology to everybody.
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Also after the war, the Freedom(which had a NJC installed in it) was repaired and hidden in a secret underground base in Orb. It is possible that ORB were the ones that repair it and may have possibly obtain the NJC technology while in the process of repairing it.
It's more likely that the Freedom was repaired by Lacus's group rather than Orb.

Anyway, even Akatsuki wasn't equipped with an NJC.
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Old 2013-02-06, 11:28   Link #5833
amaterasu4
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I thought that Kira was just taking care of the Freedom alone because the thing could nuke if used unproperly (actually happens to another mobile suit in SEED X Astray) and that he didn't want to give away the fact that Lacus helped him sabotage it.
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Old 2013-02-06, 12:40   Link #5834
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by sky black swordman View Post
True he did say this, however, at the time no one other than ZAFT knew how to create the NJC devices. But then Rau Le Creuset sent the data on the device to Blue Cosmos and the EA quickly mass-produced the devices. That makes Kira keep NJC technology a secret somewhat pointless. Also after the war, the Freedom(which had a NJC installed in it) was repaired and hidden in a secret underground base in Orb. It is possible that ORB were the ones that repair it and may have possibly obtain the NJC technology while in the process of repairing it.
Honestly, the only thing the assumed Orb engineers/mechanics did would be to repair the frame, etc, the NJC part of the Freedom was still intact and i highly doubt they would need to poke around with the NJC while repairing it.

Just because you what a engine looks like doesnt mean you know how it works, you know?

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Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
As if the EA would give Orb nuclear weapon enabling technology after Orb was destroyed by them (well technically Cagalli's dad with the self destruct)
The self-destruct wasnt nuclear.

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Originally Posted by amaterasu4 View Post
I thought that Kira was just taking care of the Freedom alone because the thing could nuke if used unproperly (actually happens to another mobile suit in SEED X Astray) and that he didn't want to give away the fact that Lacus helped him sabotage it.
Huh? What did Lacus help Kira sabotage?
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Old 2013-02-06, 13:41   Link #5835
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Honestly, the only thing the assumed Orb engineers/mechanics did would be to repair the frame, etc, the NJC part of the Freedom was still intact and i highly doubt they would need to poke around with the NJC while repairing it.

Just because you what a engine looks like doesnt mean you know how it works, you know?



The self-destruct wasnt nuclear.



Huh? What did Lacus help Kira sabotage?
Where in my post did I say the self destruct was nuclear? O-o

I suggest you read my post again, carefully
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Old 2013-02-06, 15:20   Link #5836
Haak
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Except Kira explicitly said he was not going to share the NJC technology with anyone, including the Archangel crew
Back when the war was still going on which was what his reasons were based on.

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They don't care if they had to make an enemy out of Orb.
Hey it's your logic, not mine. It's still completely counter-productive to their one possible pro out of the invasion.

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And my point is that there is no basis to support your claim that Orb could be successful in deterring an EA attack.
No basis? I just pointed out one: Orb has show it has enough military power to ensure EA get nothing out of any invasion and EA know it.

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It's not about Orb knowing about the Destroys. It's about Orb knowing that the EA is willing to attack anybody who doesn't cooperate with them.

So, again, the point of this example is to put the EA's character into perspective. I'm not using it to say that this specific event has any influence on Orb joining the EA.
So in order to illustrate how Orb will know how unreasonable EA is, you use an example of an event Orb wouldn't have been able to predict? Sorry but I'm not accepting that. Just forget about the Destroys altogether.
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Old 2013-02-06, 16:48   Link #5837
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
Where in my post did I say the self destruct was nuclear? O-o

I suggest you read my post again, carefully
Indeed, after rereading your post i noticed that you meant orb was destroyed by the EA, not nuclear weapons


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Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
Everything is so subjective to the individual and all the plot holes and untouched parts of SEED does not really help either, everything is open to interpretation
This ^ people have a habit of discussing the plot holes by stating their opinion as fact, then again, the show doesnt disprove it due to the massive plotholes everywhere, but it doesnt back them up either. Hence the endless Athrun vs Kira vs Shinn debate that usually happens 6 times a year, not to mention the massive plot-fest that is the Freedom vs Impulse that usually follows.

Then again, speculate is all we can do without any given databook regarding x plothole, and side materials only weight so much

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
So in order to illustrate how Orb will know how unreasonable EA is, you use an example of an event Orb wouldn't have been able to predict? Sorry but I'm not accepting that. Just forget about the Destroys altogether.
Honestly, Orb has first hand experience when it comes to being destroyed by the EA, seeing how they got a taste of it back in SEED, before the Destroy's even came into play, Destroys or not, the EA destroys whatever comes in its way, be it a city or a country
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Old 2013-02-06, 17:00   Link #5838
monster
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Back when the war was still going on which was what his reasons were based on.
No, his reason was based on the fact that an NJC would allow the use of nuclear weapons, which is true whether or not the war is still going on.
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Hey it's your logic, not mine. It's still completely counter-productive to their one possible pro out of the invasion.
It's not my logic, it's the EA's.
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No basis? I just pointed out one: Orb has show it has enough military power to ensure EA get nothing out of any invasion and EA know it.
Oh, so you're telling Orb to threaten to destroy itself every time someone threatens an invasion? Knowing the EA, they would just go ahead with the invasion just to spite Orb.
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So in order to illustrate how Orb will know how unreasonable EA is
No, it's to illustrate to YOU, what kind of people command the EA.

Orb already knows about the EA from SEED.
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Old 2013-02-06, 20:55   Link #5839
Skye629
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Indeed, after rereading your post i noticed that you meant orb was destroyed by the EA, not nuclear weapons




This ^ people have a habit of discussing the plot holes by stating their opinion as fact, then again, the show doesnt disprove it due to the massive plotholes everywhere, but it doesnt back them up either. Hence the endless Athrun vs Kira vs Shinn debate that usually happens 6 times a year, not to mention the massive plot-fest that is the Freedom vs Impulse that usually follows.

Then again, speculate is all we can do without any given databook regarding x plothole, and side materials only weight so much



Honestly, Orb has first hand experience when it comes to being destroyed by the EA, seeing how they got a taste of it back in SEED, before the Destroy's even came into play, Destroys or not, the EA destroys whatever comes in its way, be it a city or a country
Lol Freedom vs Impulse, that debate is BS imo, Shinn and Impulse won, period, thats what happened, "what ifs" are invalid, Freedom was doomed the instant the producers designed SF

I love following those debates, its hilarious, and so ironically against everything Gundam tries to point out about conflict
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Old 2013-02-06, 21:46   Link #5840
amaterasu4
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Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
Lol Freedom vs Impulse, that debate is BS imo, Shinn and Impulse won, period, thats what happened, "what ifs" are invalid, Freedom was doomed the instant the producers designed SF

I love following those debates, its hilarious, and so ironically against everything Gundam tries to point out about conflict
Hey I actually defend Freedom vs Impulse. Still, I'm amazed how all the people who discussed it never thought that Kira wasn't fighting back since they would have never defeated Zaft's forces with just the Archangel and were just running away. At least that's what all the lines in that episode seemed to point out.
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