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Old 2013-03-11, 00:57   Link #6021
monster
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With all that's been said, the reason why I'm still resistant to your "use cases" for this FAITH insignia is, as I said before, that the use of insignia is not a standard. So whatever emergency situations you could think of, ZAFT would've already thought of (in-story) and still decided that insignias are not necessary.

To try to make exceptions now for a FAITH insignia seems pointless to me as whatever situations you could think of in terms of needing to identify a mobile suit could apply in a broader sense to the larger force.

And since there are much fewer FAITH members, statistically, those emergency situations would happen more amongst those who are not of FAITH.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I don’t deny that FAITH insignia can be useless most of the times, still, I also don’t deny the possibility that it can be useful in certain situations.
So you're basically saying you have no problem with them doing it because, oh, it might help in some situations which might be so bad that the FAITH insignia might turn out to be useful after all.

I mean, I know this is the franchise that's used the cliché of situation being so bad that they had no choice to use a teenager/kid to pilot their best weapon. But, seriously? Now we're going to use that (bad situation excuse) to justify the use of a specific insignia too? Even though it's obviously not needed (by the fact that insignias are not standard)?
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Old 2013-03-11, 02:17   Link #6022
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
With all that's been said, the reason why I'm still resistant to your "use cases" for this FAITH insignia is, as I said before, that the use of insignia is not a standard. So whatever emergency situations you could think of, ZAFT would've already thought of (in-story) and still decided that insignias are not necessary.

To try to make exceptions now for a FAITH insignia seems pointless to me as whatever situations you could think of in terms of needing to identify a mobile suit could apply in a broader sense to the larger force.

And since there are much fewer FAITH members, statistically, those emergency situations would happen more amongst those who are not of FAITH. So you're basically saying you have no problem with them doing it because, oh, it might help in some situations which might be so bad that the FAITH insignia might turn out to be useful after all.

I mean, I know this is the franchise that's used the cliché of situation being so bad that they had no choice to use a teenager/kid to pilot their best weapon. But, seriously? Now we're going to use that (bad situation excuse) to justify the use of a specific insignia too? Even though it's obviously not needed (by the fact that insignias are not standard)?
Just when did I say that FAITH insignia is needed? The whole idea behind the FAITH insignia itself is the pilot doing their own thing but still under ZAFT regulation. But certainly, only FAITH members are allowed by ZAFT and the chairman to paint FAITH-sign on their MSs. Also, given how well-known FAITH sign to ZAFT officers and soldiers, it can be a distinctive feature for their MSs, especially if they’re using standard-issue MSs. And hey, if they're creative enough, beside FAITH sign, those FAITH members can come up with their own individual insignias like Waldfeld's "Tiger" insignia for example. That will be even more distinctive even among FAITH MSs.

In short:
distinctive feature (against non FAITH MSs) = purpose = not useless.
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Last edited by Obelisk ze Tormentor; 2013-03-11 at 02:29.
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Old 2013-03-11, 02:54   Link #6023
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
The whole idea behind the FAITH insignia itself is the pilot doing their own thing but still under ZAFT regulation.
Well, I was certainly never talking about pilots doing their own thing, but as part of standard/mandatory regulation.

FAITH pilots wanting to place a FAITH insignia on their mobile suits of their own accord is of little concern to me. I'm still not necessarily thrilled about it, but that at least can be said to be part of their character/personality.
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Old 2013-03-11, 03:40   Link #6024
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Well, I was certainly never talking about pilots doing their own thing, but as part of standard/mandatory regulation.

FAITH pilots wanting to place a FAITH insignia on their mobile suits of their own accord is of little concern to me. I'm still not necessarily thrilled about it, but that at least can be said to be part of their character/personality.
Well, mandatory or not, FAITH insignia does have purpose (distinctive feature), and that’s more than enough to make it not useless. Useless is for something that has no purpose.
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Old 2013-03-11, 03:56   Link #6025
S.Freedom
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Ok, perhaps I just have a serious inability to understand things...

But your basic argument from what I can understand concerning the use of the Faith insignia is "just because".

And considering the Destiny is the only unit we've seen with it(which is rather distinctive imo) in a promo piece no less. The discussion is rather moot imo.

I mean assuming it was mandatory, why didn't Athrun's Savior(again rather distinctive) or even Heine's GOUF have it? Unless there's going to be a retcon where all FAITH units have it.
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Old 2013-03-11, 04:14   Link #6026
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Useless is for something that has no purpose.
Exactly, it is not necessarily for something that cannot have purpose, but that has no purpose. ZAFT not using insignia shows that it has no purpose.

To make up a use for FAITH insignia alone is pointless.
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Old 2013-03-11, 04:15   Link #6027
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
But your basic argument from what I can understand concerning the use of the Faith insignia is "just because".
The background reason behind it can be anything, just like how Andrew Waldfeld paint a Tiger insignia on his Suits. That is his personal seal, so I doubt it’s included in ZAFT’s mandatory regulation. Still, the purpose of applying such insignias is to make it as distinctive feature. That’s it. Simple and clear, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
And considering the Destiny is the only unit we've seen with it(which is rather distinctive imo) in a promo piece no less. The discussion is rather moot imo.
The base of our discussion regarding FAITH insignia is a “what if” situation all along. So, no, there’s nothing moot about it. I guess we’re all smart enough to realize that promotional picture doesn’t mean they will do the same in the anime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
I mean assuming it was mandatory, why didn't Athrun's Savior(again rather distinctive) or even Heine's GOUF have it? Unless there's going to be a retcon where all FAITH units have it.
Well, I don’t know about that, since none of us (Me, monster, Skye, and others) ever consider FAITH insignia as something mandatory imo. So, you are free to look for the answer to your questions yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Exactly, it is not necessarily for something that cannot have purpose, but that has no purpose. ZAFT not using insignia shows that it has no purpose.

To make up a use for FAITH insignia alone is pointless.
It may be not under ZAFT’s mandatory regulation, but the fact that several ZAFT pilots (IIRC Andrew, Shiho, Miguell, etc) using insignia means it has purpose for some ZAFT people at least. One thing is certain, the pilots themselves adding those insignia for a purpose. The same can be said abou FAITH insignia. If the pilot add it, it's for a purpose to make his Suit distinguishable from a certain group of others.
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Old 2013-03-11, 04:35   Link #6028
S.Freedom
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The reason people like Andrew, Shiho, and Miguel put markings on their units is because they're just that bad@ss. It's basically to say I'm going to kick your arse 20 ways to sunday and there ain't a darn thing you can do about it.

Sorry, but that's that be all end all of it really. Kinda like how in WW2 ace pilots put markings on their planes to indicate how many kills they had.

That's about the only purpose those markings have.
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Old 2013-03-11, 04:39   Link #6029
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
It may be not under ZAFT’s mandatory regulation, but the fact that several ZAFT pilots (IIRC Andrew, Shiho, Miguell, etc) using insignia means it has purpose for some ZAFT people at least. One thing is certain, the pilots themselves adding those insignia for a purpose. The same can be said abou FAITH insignia. If the pilot add it, it's for a purpose to make his Suit distinguishable from a certain group of others.
What I disagree with is when you try to come up with some serious reason for having a FAITH insignia, like emergency situations and whatnot.

If insignia served anything remotely importantly as that, it would be a standard. But it's not, so all those examples of personalized insignia is nothing more than vanity license plates. And like I said, I have little concern over an individual FAITH pilot putting a FAITH insignia on his mobile suit like a vanity license plate.
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Old 2013-03-11, 04:57   Link #6030
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
What I disagree with is when you try to come up with some serious reason for having a FAITH insignia, like emergency situations and whatnot.

If insignia served anything remotely importantly as that, it would be a standard. But it's not, so all those examples of personalized insignia is nothing more than vanity license plates. And like I said, I have little concern over an individual FAITH pilot putting a FAITH insignia on his mobile suit like a vanity license plate.
Distinctive feature can also be useful during emergency situation. What so wrong about that?

Example (in a hangar full of Goufs, during sudden bombing attack, system fails):
Mechanic A: Hey you! Repair C’s Gouf!
Mechanic B: I just got here from another division! Which one?!
Mechanic A: The one with FAITH Insignia on its left shoulder and a broken leg! You can’t miss it.
Mechanic B: Ok, got it! I'm on my way!
*B arrives*
FAITH member C: Thanx for coming!
Mechanic B: No problem.

See? Maybe not much, but still not useless, right?
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Old 2013-03-11, 05:35   Link #6031
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Distinctive feature can also be useful during emergency situation. What so wrong about that?
Nothing. They simply already have ways of distinguishing the mobile suits, even during emergency situations.
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Old 2013-03-11, 05:40   Link #6032
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Nothing. They simply already have ways of distinguishing the mobile suits, even during emergency situations.
Then we’re good, since you say nothing is wrong with distinctive feature (in this case, FAITH sign) being able to help people during some certain situations (which is my original point). Then why did you disagree with me in the first place?
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Old 2013-03-11, 05:47   Link #6033
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Then we’re good, since you say nothing is wrong with distinctive feature (in this case FAITH sign) being able to help people during some certain situations (which is my original point).
So it's a moot point, then? You're arguing for can and could, not that there's a need for it.
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Old 2013-03-11, 05:56   Link #6034
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
So it's a moot point, then? You're arguing for can and could, not that there's a need for it.
I can’t believe you’re back to this. I’ll just quote myself for this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Just when did I say that FAITH insignia is needed?
So, like I said many times before, I count all possibilities. So what’s wrong with talking about things that could happen?

FAITH sign has its purpose (mainly from the pilot’s POV): to ba a distinctive feature. That alone made it not useless. Plus, other things that can benefit people like my example above.
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Old 2013-03-11, 06:09   Link #6035
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
So, like I said many times before, I count all possibilities. So what’s wrong with talking about things that could happen?
As I have already said, those things that "could happen" have already been thought of by ZAFT, and they decided there was no need for insignia as a standard.

Remember that you're the one who disagreed with me when I replied to Skye629's post about the importance of numbers/insignia.

So if we can agree that FAITH insignia is not needed, then I don't know why you disagreed with me in the first place, but it's fine.

We are good.
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Old 2013-03-11, 06:47   Link #6036
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
As I have already said, those things that "could happen" have already been thought of by ZAFT, and they decided there was no need for insignia as a standard.

Remember that you're the one who disagreed with me when I replied to Skye629's post about the importance of numbers/insignia.

So if we can agree that FAITH insignia is not needed, then I don't know why you disagreed with me in the first place, but it's fine.

We are good.
This is Skye’s post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
In the cases of standard issue unites though numbers and insignias are important, thats how you tell which unit is your mech in the hangar and whether you are in the wrong hangar or not (squadron insignias)
In his post, he mentioned squadron insignias and numbers are important which is true. For example, Yzak team/squadron has their own mandatory insignia said “Joule Team” on the Zaku Phantom and Zaku Warriors’ shields, even though the anime fail to bring it on-screen in most occasions.

What I disagree from you is this reply post of yours:
Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Well, that's a useful feature, but not applicable to a FAITH insignia, ...
Faith insignia is a fifty-fifty case in which ZAFT army don’t really need it since FAITH have no squadron, but on the other hand, its existence can be useful and very much applicable as a distinctive feature for standard MSs. In short, FAITH has the basic function as a distinctive feature similar to those squadron markings. Thus, making me disagree with you when you said FAITH insignia is not applicable at all.

In short, is FAITH insignia unneeded by ZAFT? Yes.
But is it applicable (as a distinctive feature)? Also yes.
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Last edited by Obelisk ze Tormentor; 2013-03-11 at 07:01.
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Old 2013-03-11, 13:38   Link #6037
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
For example, Yzak team/squadron has their own mandatory insignia said “Joule Team” on the Zaku Phantom and Zaku Warriors’ shields, even though the anime fail to bring it on-screen in most occasions.
Interesting, how did you find out about this insignia and that it is mandatory?
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Old 2013-03-11, 14:15   Link #6038
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Interesting, how did you find out about this insignia and that it is mandatory?
The squadron insignia rarely appears since it’s just a squadron name-tag and not drawing much attention to the viewers. Even in the manga, the artist rarely include it (let alone in the anime), but it’s there. I did manage to find the image of it. So, here’s one of those rare sightings (oh, and it says "Team Jule" not "Joule Team". Sorry for the mix-up):
Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
As for how I know it’s mandatory. I remember reading it from a certain Gundam site years ago (not Wikia). It’s not mentioned in the anime itself that’s for sure. I do hope I remember it and can bring it here. But what I remember is that there are some kind of regulation in using squadron signs. Many, but not all ZAFT squadrons use it. In the case of Yzak’s team, it is mandatory except for the captain himself IIRC. For Yzak’s MS, it’s optional. That said, at this point, it's okay for you to doubt me on this matter since I still can't provide the source yet.
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Old 2013-03-11, 14:35   Link #6039
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
As for how I know it’s mandatory. I remember reading it from a certain Gundam site years ago (not Wikia). It’s not mentioned in the anime itself that’s for sure. I do hope I remember it and can bring it here. But what I remember is that there are some kind of regulation in using squadron signs. Many, but not all ZAFT squadrons use it. In the case of Yzak’s team, it is mandatory except for the captain himself IIRC. For Yzak’s MS, it’s optional. That said, at this point, it's okay for you to doubt me on this matter since I still can't provide the source yet.
Yeah, if you find a source, it'll be great. But it's still useful to mention it, even without a source, as long as there's no official source contradicting it.

By the way, which manga is that? Is it one of the Astrays? I hope it's not the manga adaptation of the series.
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Old 2013-03-11, 14:58   Link #6040
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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By the way, which manga is that? Is it one of the Astrays? I hope it's not the manga adaptation of the series.
It's from Destiny Astray. Btw, what's wrong with the manga adaptation of the series?
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