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Old 2013-05-02, 00:28   Link #6881
Aquaman OS
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Originally Posted by The American Average View Post
party pooper
Yeah well it's starting to get grating. People have literally been arguing this for years. And unlike the "Did Durandal send the assasins" arguement (which is actually an important plot event and has several flags pointing towards it) there's no way to know for sure (it never came up once in any other adaptation or interview with Fukuda) and pretty much no reason to argue when it isn't actually relevant in series. You'd think people would have dropped it once ep 23 aired and Shinn didn't connect Freedom to that day in Orb, but apprarantly not.

There's litereally no reason to bother unless you're a Kira hater who is desperate for some dirt to throw at him.
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Old 2013-05-02, 00:37   Link #6882
S.Freedom
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Oi this again?

Orb is blameless in the death of Shins family. The EA is completely responsible purely because of Azreals words. Azreal intentionally gave terms that Orb or any other nation would have refused. He wanted Orb to refuse in order to give the EA fleet the justification however flimsy it needed to initiate the attack. And that's ignoring the fact the EA was already planning to recapture the Victoria mass driver. Much less the fact that they succeeded in recapturing Victoria.
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Old 2013-05-02, 00:42   Link #6883
Destined_Fate
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Orb is NOT blameless! By choosing to fight, whether it was right or wrong, was what got his family killed. We have no idea what would have happened if they surrendered since what happened is that they chose to fight and Shinn's family dying was a cost of that.

So Orb's hands aren't clean and as far as we know the real surrender terms were never revealed to the rest of the world. So Shinn has no idea why Orb decided to fight other than their ideals since he was never told the real reason.

Every action has a reaction. Orb had was backed to a corner but that doesn't mean that they aren't still partly responsible for lives lost due to their choice despite it being the right choice(Though all the leaders committing suicide was REALLY dumb).

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Originally Posted by The American Average View Post
personally its Shinns family fault for dieing because of leaving the house in those outfits. mom wears skirt and heels, dad didn't bring a map, spoiled sister about a cheap pink phone, and the greatest fashion crime of all Shinns hat


it was the fashion police who shot that beam
I know you're just joking but it isn't good to ever blame the victims even for comic relief.
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Old 2013-05-02, 00:56   Link #6884
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Question

Look it's simple Azreal intentionally initiated conflict with Orb over it's kaguya mass driver. He did so because he for all intents and purposes wanted to punish them for remaining neutral in the war against ZAFT. Even if Orb surrendered I can't see him doing nothing about the coordinator population of which Shin and his family are apart of. Nor does it take into account that going to Orb was completely unnecessary since the EA regained the mass driver at Victoria.

And it's irrelevant if the terms of surrender where made public. It still doesn't negate the fact that the EA are responsible for the death of Shins family. Nor does Shins knowledge of these events negate EA's responsibility in the matter.
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Old 2013-05-02, 01:28   Link #6885
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
I know you're just joking but it isn't good to ever blame the victims even for comic relief.
It’s better for us to joke than being dead-serious and depressing and aggressive all the time (like you) just for a piece of fictional work .

I mean, look at your reply that I quoted. You're being so serious in defending fictional side-character victims from IRL jokes . That says it all.
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Old 2013-05-02, 01:29   Link #6886
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Even if Orb did cave in to the EA's demand it would only result in the EA rounding up every Coorinator they can find and sent them to concentration camps where they'll all be executed.
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Old 2013-05-02, 02:00   Link #6887
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I just can't help realizing that if Shinn's family had just followed him down that hill, they would've made it to the ships faster.

But anyway, Shinn blamed Orb for not being able to defend its citizens, not from fighting. If he was against Orb fighting, he wouldn't turn around and join ZAFT.
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Old 2013-05-02, 02:46   Link #6888
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Shin was just mad. He would have spun a way to hate someone out of that situation no matter how non sensical. Understanding and unbiased is something Shinn is not.
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Old 2013-05-02, 02:53   Link #6889
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Yeah, he seemed to see/understand things in only black and white. I don't think he understood that there where shades of grey until the very end of the series.
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Old 2013-05-02, 04:40   Link #6890
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Shinn's family would have died either way from the Earth Alliance Invasion of Orb. Shinn probably would have become another casualty instead of a victim in Destiny. That is a big difference. Azrael intent on destroying any coordinators that include Shinn in internment camps or shooting them on the spot. The problem is Shinn isn't clean either. He could have moved to other neutral nations, EA, or ZAFT. Instead he stayed at Orb, Shinn made his decision when he stayed at Orb, don't blame Kira for Shinn's bad decision.

It is pretty much as a drunk driver that hit himself that hits another driver, however, it isn't the driver that ends up killing his family. It ends up being someone else in between or someone out of the loop. For you are pretty much saying it that you blame Kira for just being there, is simply what it amounts to. Without Kira, Orb wouldn't have been able to stall EA for that long before leaving. Orb forces would have been decimated far faster, that Orb simply wouldn't have enough time to counter. It is simply unreasonable for Shinn to blame Kira for everything, even for war base situations. That is still taking it way too far. It like someone blaming you for not getting into a car accident and end pinning it on you for it without any reason and you didn't even crash into them.
Uh not sure what you are going on about here. Its obvious the family would have died no matter what, for plot reasons. I never made an argument saying Shinn was clean and pinned stuff on Kira. I was talking about how some people made out removing the freedom from one of the scenes was pro-jesus yamato on the developers part, and that it would not have mattered anyways since kira was already a killer since the start of the war

Once again Im talking about the removal of freedom from a SCENE, not the battle, or anything else. I AM NOT saying that Shinn blames Kira, he blames ORB for the whole battle (which is somewhat true as they had no choice due to Athas policies and no matter what Azrael would have saw to fighting anyways, because that C*** wanted to test his new toys and display the Atlantic Federations power to those who decided to remain neutral, Orb was not the only one)
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Old 2013-05-02, 09:53   Link #6891
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If Attha order demolish the Mass-driver from the very start. So whats the point capture that island there is nothing important there anymore.
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Old 2013-05-02, 10:25   Link #6892
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Forget blaming Orb, I still blame Shinn's family for their own deaths. The idiots had a couple days to pack up and get the heck out of there. Instead, they said "hey let's wait until our country is being attacked to head for safety!" They had a much better chance than a lot of people to get somewhere safe. Of course somehow I doubt Shinn is going to look at it from that perspective. Understandably just angry at anyone that seems to be a good target. Yeah the Earth Forces attacking does have the majority of blame, but I do think you have to take some responsibility for your own survival. What the heck were his parents thinking?
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Originally Posted by PzIVf3 View Post
If Attha order demolish the Mass-driver from the very start. So whats the point capture that island there is nothing important there anymore.
Hard to say if it would have helped. They also wanted Morgenrate, so would have to blow that up too. Even then with the fanatics running this war could spin it as, "Orb doesn't need their Mass-Driver anymore, because they are actually working with Zaft." Eventually just having coordinators would have lead to the Earth Forces attacking. Eventually removing anything that might lure an enemy in will leave you so defenseless that they will invade simply because they can.
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Old 2013-05-02, 10:53   Link #6893
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Forget blaming Orb, I still blame Shinn's family for their own deaths. The idiots had a couple days to pack up and get the heck out of there. Instead, they said "hey let's wait until our country is being attacked to head for safety!"


Orb didnt announce any evacuation and they have no guide for the civilians to the safety route.
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Old 2013-05-02, 11:29   Link #6894
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Originally Posted by PzIVf3 View Post
If Attha order demolish the Mass-driver from the very start. So whats the point capture that island there is nothing important there anymore.
This is Azrael we're talking about If ORB destroyed the Mass Driver first thing he would just see it as helping ZAFT and would still have attacked with even more blood to spill. The mass driver however is also a way to help the citizens of ORB possibly escape to some neutral colonies or at the very least get the coordinators to ZAFT where they won't be ill treated compared to if the EA took over ORB.
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Old 2013-05-02, 11:56   Link #6895
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Originally Posted by PzIVf3 View Post
If Attha order demolish the Mass-driver from the very start. So whats the point capture that island there is nothing important there anymore.
He wanted to first use it to send AA and the other ship into space, in order to get Orb forces up there to stop the war that he correctly guessed was about to turn full on genocidal.

If they'd blown it up right away everyone in Orb would be stuck on earth and helpless to stop the Plants getting nuked and Zala Genesising the earth which would have killed everyone in Orb anyway.
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Old 2013-05-02, 12:27   Link #6896
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Evacuations don't work like that. If you look the boat that Shinn was on was overcrowded. So I highly doubt anyone could just "leave" with the Feds surrounding them. Besides ORB was in charge of the evacuation and even though they started it before than it still takes quite a while to empty out an entire country. So no one is at fault about the speed of it, not ORB or the victims, since it's simply not fees-able to empty out an entire country extremely quickly. Especially when surrounded and being attacked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
Look it's simple Azreal intentionally initiated conflict with Orb over it's kaguya mass driver. He did so because he for all intents and purposes wanted to punish them for remaining neutral in the war against ZAFT. Even if Orb surrendered I can't see him doing nothing about the coordinator population of which Shin and his family are apart of. Nor does it take into account that going to Orb was completely unnecessary since the EA regained the mass driver at Victoria.

And it's irrelevant if the terms of surrender where made public. It still doesn't negate the fact that the EA are responsible for the death of Shins family. Nor does Shins knowledge of these events negate EA's responsibility in the matter.
The people were never told this. We know this because we watched it all happen. The average ORB citizen has no idea WHY the Feds are invading other than that ORB refused to surrender.

As I said, all you're doing is saying what ifs since these events have long since passed. Instead we have to go with what happened and what happened is that ORB, even if they made the right decision, is still partly responsible for the death of Shinn's family due to that decision. We have no idea WHAT would have happened if they surrendered but what we do know is that they didn't surrender and Shinn's family dying is a result of that.

I also said earlier that the Feds were responsible too but so is ORB. ORB's choice was still theirs in the end and the good and the bad that came from it is just as much theirs.
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Old 2013-05-02, 12:34   Link #6897
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by PzIVf3 View Post
Orb didnt announce any evacuation and they have no guide for the civilians to the safety route.
... yeah they did. Attha specifically mentioned giving an evacuation order before the first battle, and I distinctly remember a scene where the news came on at a public video screen in the city announcing the evacuation. So yeah, Asuka family's fault for not evacuating when they first started.

And Mayu's fault even moreso for demanding they halt to get her phone, but I can't imagine they'd've gotten far from the blast when it went off.

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He wanted to first use it to send AA and the other ship into space, in order to get Orb forces up there to stop the war that he correctly guessed was about to turn full on genocidal.
Nitpicking, I suppose, but I feel I should point out that the Archangel didn't need the use of the Mass Driver to make it off the planet. Your point still stands on the Kusanagi and such.
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Old 2013-05-02, 14:14   Link #6898
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Azrael was also after Morgenroete or however the hell you spell it for their tech secrets, they made stuff like the AA and the gundams after all

And Rising Dragon is correct, they did issue an evac order a few prior to the battle

But as we all saw most had the "OH WERE A NEUTRAL NATION NUTHIN WILL HAPPEN TO US BLAH BLAH BLAH" mentality, retards imo

And all this talk about Shinns family is rather irrevalent, they were going to die to start off the plot, so nothing really matters
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Old 2013-05-02, 14:45   Link #6899
Destined_Fate
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There's also the thing where you cannot evacuate a whole country in a speedy time frame, especially when they're under constant attack.

Look again at the boat Shinn got on, it was overcrowded and it's doubtful that Shinn's boat was the last to leave ORB. It was a very populated country, the fact that they managed to get so many out despite all that IS an achievement in of itself.

I'm just pointing out that ORB's decision, though right, played a part in what killed Shinn's family. We could argue Ifs or could but that would get us nowhere since what has happened has happened already.

The Feds suffer the most blame since they were warmongering monsters but saying Shinn isn't right to blame ORB too is wrong.
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Old 2013-05-02, 15:21   Link #6900
The American Average
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
There's also the thing where you cannot evacuate a whole country in a speedy time frame, especially when they're under constant attack.

Look again at the boat Shinn got on, it was overcrowded and it's doubtful that Shinn's boat was the last to leave ORB. It was a very populated country, the fact that they managed to get so many out despite all that IS an achievement in of itself.
Never got how orb had so many people in it http://www.freewebs.com/theorbunion/vlcsnap-2579889.png its like super small. now how did orb fit all those people in that little island? Now if remember correctly orb was It is based on New Zealand, Australia, and Papua New Guinea. but in this fight of Orb Vs EA it was just in Onogoro
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