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Old 2013-05-12, 01:55   Link #7121
The American Average
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why does what matter?
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Old 2013-05-12, 02:14   Link #7122
monster
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Miguel's personality or whether his death changed anything.
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Old 2013-05-12, 02:26   Link #7123
Aquaman OS
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Of course it matters. If they have no personality and affect nothing in the plot then why care about them. Why even make them a so called "ace"?
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Old 2013-05-12, 02:27   Link #7124
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it really doesn't matter. just seeing if that conversation starter could go somewhere interesting with people adding their own points on it
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Old 2013-05-12, 02:49   Link #7125
monster
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Of course it matters. If they have no personality and affect nothing in the plot then why care about them. Why even make them a so called "ace"?
One use is to show the strength of the character/weapon who defeats them, of course.

But whatever use they serve, their personality has nothing to do with their title as an ace. It can certainly add to their character if that's what the character needs in its role, but not about being an ace.
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Old 2013-05-12, 07:29   Link #7126
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Miguel is an ace? He's not even a redcoat right?

I guess he has to be good enough to be assigned to the Creuset team, but he's probably a tier below Rusty, Athrun, Nicol, Dearka, and Yzak.
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Old 2013-05-12, 07:35   Link #7127
Gundamx
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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
Miguel is an ace? He's not even a redcoat right?

I guess he has to be good enough to be assigned to the Creuset team, but he's probably a tier below Rusty, Athrun, Nicol, Dearka, and Yzak.
real battle experience (they even give him custom MS ) >>> school no.1 kids
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Old 2013-05-12, 07:41   Link #7128
quagmire
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
You're expecting Heine to know all of that when he can't actually make those assumptions.
Since Heine was a veteran from the last war and was involved in the battle at Jachin Due, you would think he would know something of Freedom's reputation.....
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Old 2013-05-12, 11:19   Link #7129
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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
Miguel is an ace? He's not even a redcoat right?
What's that got to do with anything?

From my view being a redcoat is like having the best grades in your high school class/year. Sure having straight A's means your pretty smart and likely to succeed. But that doesn't mean someone with straight B+'s can't be just as successful or more so.

@monster All Heine needed was the situational awareness that a pilot of his caliber and experience should have to know that Kira didn't touch anyone he disarmed in the very battle he died in. Not to mention the fact he should have had access to the same intel Rey/Shinn used to exploit Kira's not going for the kill. Are you seriously going to say ZAFT had absolutely no records on how the Freedom fought? Or that Heine was to stupid and or arrogant to look for such info?
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Old 2013-05-12, 12:27   Link #7130
The American Average
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didn't heine die in like in the First fight with the Freedom? how would he be able look up all the info on the Freedom like Shinn and Rey. Of course he knew of the freedom when everybody was flipping out about the Freedom's presence wasn't he more "who do you think you guys are shooting everybody?"

When you really think about Heine's skills, i really think the only way to get him killed would be something like a careless error (not looking behind him) because any and all battles beyond that point were more and more grunt suits he wouldn't have had any problems keeping up with Shinn, Rey, Luna, Or Arthun heck he may even do better. It would also have been very interesting if he was around in the Impulse VS Freedom and Battle of Orb how possibly he could have changed outcomes of those battles
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Old 2013-05-12, 13:42   Link #7131
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So your saying ZAFT had absolutely no footage of the Freedom from the second battle of Jachin Due or the battle of Onogoro? We know Creuset was at Onogoro. Why the heck wouldn't he be recording it for future reference to study how the new suits like Calamity, Raider, and Forbidden fought?

I mean the Freedom is considered the most powerful MS of the time working in unison with one of the most powerful warships of the time in the Archangel. Are you seriously telling me some ZAFT scmuck didn't go holy shit this isn't good the second they learned they where active again. And distribute every detail of info ZAFT had at the time on the Freedom/Archangel to every ship/base in the fleet on the off chance that they engaged ZAFT forces for some reason?

I mean the Freedom/Archangel do have a history with ZAFT after all. It would be stupid if ZAFT forces where not as fully prepared as humanly possible to face them.
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Old 2013-05-12, 13:52   Link #7132
quagmire
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Originally Posted by The American Average View Post
didn't heine die in like in the First fight with the Freedom? how would he be able look up all the info on the Freedom like Shinn and Rey. Of course he knew of the freedom when everybody was flipping out about the Freedom's presence wasn't he more "who do you think you guys are shooting everybody?"

When you really think about Heine's skills, i really think the only way to get him killed would be something like a careless error (not looking behind him) because any and all battles beyond that point were more and more grunt suits he wouldn't have had any problems keeping up with Shinn, Rey, Luna, Or Arthun heck he may even do better. It would also have been very interesting if he was around in the Impulse VS Freedom and Battle of Orb how possibly he could have changed outcomes of those battles
Heine was a veteran of the last war. He should be aware of the Freedom.
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Old 2013-05-12, 13:57   Link #7133
monster
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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
Since Heine was a veteran from the last war and was involved in the battle at Jachin Due, you would think he would know something of Freedom's reputation.....
Don't assume things.
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
All Heine needed was the situational awareness that a pilot of his caliber and experience should have to know that Kira didn't touch anyone he disarmed in the very battle he died in.
He has the situational awareness that the Freedom was the biggest threat in that battlefield, which means it still deserves his immediate attention at that point as it was still nearby.
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Not to mention the fact he should have had access to the same intel Rey/Shinn used to exploit Kira's not going for the kill.
It has nothing to do with whether or not the Freedom targets vital parts of a mobile suit. It's about it being the biggest threat.
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Are you seriously going to say ZAFT had absolutely no records on how the Freedom fought? Or that Heine was to stupid and or arrogant to look for such info?
Even if there is record, that is not an excuse to turn your back on a dominant mobile suit like the Freedom. Heine doesn't know the pilot and he has no reason to trust that this pilot would not have a change of heart and attack him again. He doesn't even know if this is the same pilot from the first war.
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
Are you seriously telling me some ZAFT scmuck didn't go holy shit this isn't good the second they learned they where active again.
They learned it was active again in that battlefield. There's a more immediate concern than passing around background information to the entire ship.
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Old 2013-05-12, 14:07   Link #7134
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That's exactly what I'm saying. His whole attitude toward the Freedom makes no sense considering what we know of Heine's history. He should have been familiar enough with it so he didn't act like a complete noob when Freedom showed up. Yet that's exactly what he did, he acted like a noob and got disarmed for his trouble. Than got himself killed because he got angry over what Kira did to him.

Heine's whole reaction to the Freedom makes him look either arrogant or stupid. At worst it makes him look both, stupidly arrogant.

@monster And how exactly would Heine be able to effect the Freedom with no weapons exactly? Was he planning to pull an Athrun and self destruct his unit in an attempt to destroy the Freedom?

Uhm, the whole world knew the Archangel/Freedom where active since Kira "kidnapped" Cagalli during her wedding which to my knowledge was broadcast live such that Luna knew about it when Athrun arrived on the Minerva. They just didn't know where the heck they went after "kidnapping" Cagalli. So why the bloody heck would ZAFT or EA not prepare for the possibility of them engaging in battle?

And Heine could make a reasonable guess based on how the Freedom was acting up to his own death.

Last edited by S.Freedom; 2013-05-12 at 14:20.
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Old 2013-05-12, 14:36   Link #7135
monster
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
And how exactly would Heine be able to effect the Freedom with no weapons exactly? Was he planning to pull an Athrun and self destruct his unit in an attempt to destroy the Freedom?
I said he needs to watch out for him. Who said anything about attacking? If the Freedom had moved on like it usually does, I'm sure Heine would've retreated. But the Freedom stopped near him. That should give a concern to anybody who has just been disabled.
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Uhm, the whole world knew the Archangel/Freedom where active since Kira "kidnapped" Cagalli during her wedding which to my knowledge was broadcast live such that Luna knew about it when Athrun arrived on the Minerva. They just didn't know where the heck they went after "kidnapping" Cagalli. So why the bloody heck would ZAFT or EA not prepare for the possibility of them engaging in battle?
Oh, right. Well, Durandal was trying to act surprise that the Freedom would show up. So it makes sense that he wouldn't order such things. Beside, it was a rumor anyway that the Orb government tried to deny happen.
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And Heine could make a reasonable guess based on how the Freedom was acting up to his own death.
The Freedom was going around attacking and then moving on, but after he attacked Heine, he stopped near him. That's already an unusual occurrence.

So, like I said, Heine can't assume anything, especially in a battlefield.
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Old 2013-05-12, 15:01   Link #7136
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So because Durandal didn't give any orders the rest of ZAFT lost any and all concept of common sense. Cool, nice to know that because my boss doesn't give me an order I get a free pass on being stupid.

Perhaps it's just my crazy way of thinking. But if there's a rumor of an insanely powerful MS that happens to be supported by an equally powerful warship. I'd do my damndest to make sure I was prepared to go up against said units on the off chance said rumor happened to be true.
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Old 2013-05-12, 15:32   Link #7137
Gundamx
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Didn't ZAFT already know how freedom look like?
(They easily recognize SF as freedom)
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Old 2013-05-12, 15:37   Link #7138
monster
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
So because Durandal didn't give any orders the rest of ZAFT lost any and all concept of common sense.
You think it's common sense for a soldier to assume that just because a mobile suit did disable its targets in the past, that it would continue to do so? Also, you do realize that ZAFT only encountered the Freedom three times, right? Most ZAFT soldiers that it encountered probably only seen it once. Even Rey took two/three encounters to realize the pattern, and that's only because he's analyzing it for a planned attack. Even then, it's still a risk that Rey and Shinn were taking in thinking that Kira wouldn't suddenly switch to killing.

Also, I don't think you understand how big the final battle of SEED was. Alaska and the two Minerva interventions were the only times that the Freedom really became the center of attention for ZAFT soldiers to warrant such detailed analysis as Rey was doing outside of a planned attack.

But that's beside the point. Regardless of what you think Heine should've known, the Freedom is still largely an unknown and Heine simply could not react fast enough by the time Stella had closed in on him.
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Didn't ZAFT already know how freedom look like?
(They easily recognize SF as freedom)
They could know of it or even its appearance, but that doesn't really mean much.
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Old 2013-05-12, 15:45   Link #7139
Skye629
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Or better yet, ditch Rey altogether and let Heine pilot the Legend . Rey is such a boring character to have.
^^^THIS^^^

Then have a Heine Destiny fighting instead

Then give Legend to uhhhh.......Durandal? (I cant see Luna being able to utilize it)
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Old 2013-05-12, 16:44   Link #7140
The American Average
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
So your saying ZAFT had absolutely no footage of the Freedom from the second battle of Jachin Due or the battle of Onogoro? We know Creuset was at Onogoro. Why the heck wouldn't he be recording it for future reference to study how the new suits like Calamity, Raider, and Forbidden fought?
Of Course ZAFT has footage of Freedom. And of Course Heine Knows what the Freedom is anybody who fought in the Last war should, would and does know of the Freedom. After all, it was one of the main reasons why the war ended.

what i was meaning with Heine, like he could get lot more details on the Freedom because he died before the Freedom was considered an enemy of ZAFT. why would any commander look into an old suit from the previous war to find it strengths and weaknesses if they never knew it was coming. every time the AA/Freedom showed up it was a random encounter its not like they could prepare for that.
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