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Old 2013-05-21, 19:48   Link #7281
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
Just curious, but what does "sxualtention" mean?
Sexual tension.
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Old 2013-05-21, 20:22   Link #7282
S.Freedom
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Originally Posted by BladeEntity View Post
I think his point was not how badly the couple is because of how they got together but rather how well developed and executed the pairing was. Kira x Fllay was better written and made sense from the narative but was way more unhealthy and more for the wrong reasons compared to Shinn and Luna.
And I agree with him that Kira/Flay was better written. But how is Luna deciding to date the man she believed to have killed her sister any better than Kira/Flay? How does she rationalize dating a man that for all intents and purposes murdered her sister? Much less the fact she showed no hesitation in believing what she was told about her sister and not female mook #9.

@Rising Dragon Thanks, seeing that threw me for a loop.

Last edited by S.Freedom; 2013-05-21 at 23:15.
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Old 2013-05-21, 20:30   Link #7283
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
And I agree with him I that Kira/Flay was better written. But how is Luna deciding to date the man she believed to have killed her sister any better than Kira/Flay? How does she rationalize dating a man that for all intents and purposes murdered her sister? Much less the fact she showed no hesitation in believing what she was told about her sister and not female mook #9.

@Rising Dragon Thanks, seeing that threw me for a loop.
From my point of view, it was more of Luna and Shinn both finding comfort with eachother. Considering, that Luna is a soldier I think she understands the need to follow orders hence much of the blame at least in her eyes is removed from Shinn. She just lost her sister and at least from what was shown she close to Shinn so it could be more of not wanting to lose anyone close to her anymore. Its comfort versus sexual manipulation.
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Old 2013-05-21, 21:39   Link #7284
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Eh. I always knew they were a couple and they do have a history together as they trained together so there was always that to build up on. The HD stuff from SEED and Destiny merely built up that Lunamaria always had an attraction for Shinn but didn't act on it until Athrun "betrayed" them and her sister died that she realized that Shinn was the only one she had left. She also seemed to understand why Shinn was always angry all the time and she didn't discipline him at all when he was raging at Cagalli.

Since her parents are not once shown or mentioned and how overprotective she can be when it comes to her sister I believe it's safe to assume that her parents are dead too.

Besides, as said she is a Soldier and she knows that Shinn had no choice but to obey so hating him, and pushing a very important person in her life away, would only end up hurting her even more. She even tries to rationalize it for Shinn so he would stop feeling guilty over it and to let him know that she doesn't blame him.
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Old 2013-05-21, 22:49   Link #7285
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
As bad as Kira made Minerva look with Athrun helping out. Just think about how badly Minerva would have been screwed over had Kira/Athrun been working together from the getgo instead of the last ten episodes.
I think it was also to give the two ships some connection through Athrun. If Athrun went back to AA all along then the two ships would have simply been faceless opponents to each other, much like how all the battles between Kira and Shinn were. Faceless to each other, and simply see the other as an evil enemy (neither knowing that both are very human) to be killed, and don't say one word to each other. As opposed to Athrun who knew Shinn was a decent guy deep down who only had Durandal and Rey playing on his anger issues to kill for them, and he at least tried to get through to him that he and Orb weren't the evil bastards that deserved to be murderized that Shinn seemed convinced they were.

In short it was the only way to have the usual Gundam "fight while debating the philosphies of life" thing.
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Old 2013-05-21, 23:29   Link #7286
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@BladeEntity My counter is the Archangels actions after JOSHUA. Technically speaking, as soldiers in your view they should have died at JOSHUA because they where ordered to defend said facility to the fullest. Yet they disengaged and basically ran in the face of the enemy. Had they returned to the EA they would have been charged with treason and executed. Yet the Archangels actions are looked upon as being just and right.

Why would Luna's asking questions about the story surrounding her own sister be less so?

@Aquaman OS Your forgetting that Marrue and Talia met in Orb. So having Athrun join the Minerva is redundant by your definition if you ask me.
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Old 2013-05-22, 00:25   Link #7287
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Talia and Murrue met for two minutes. And regardless the pilots are the ones that get the focus in battle. The two captains sort of kind of knowing each other isn't the same as the pilots having a fairly personal relationship with each other. Especially since Talia and Murrue, while respecting each other didn't really seem all that interested in trying to convince the other they were wrong.

Regarding Luna being a good solider and listening to her leader. If it was anyone else maybe...but Luna WAS THERE when Athrun was talking with Kira. She took those pictures and recorded the conversation herself.

When shown the pictures she took and told that was Athrun giving away Zaft secrets, she should know it was a lie because she heard the conversation herself where Athrun did nothing but defend Zaft and try to tell Kira to stop interfering. Talia (who also heard the recording and recieved the support) was also suspicious but Durandal basically frightened her into submission, and she seemed to let it go so she could keep her job and try to mediate the situation (like when she ordered the attack on Orb stopped when Djbril got away, even though the other Zaft forces wanted to level and conquer it anyway).

Luna however basically forgets all about the stuff she personally saw and swallows the story of Athrun being an evil Logos supporter without question even though the evidence used is stuff she knows is false because she took it personally.

I think this was a midseries story deviation and Luna was supposed to be the one to help Athrun and leave Zaft, but they decided to switch with Meyrin so Luna could pilot Impulse. Legend was not in the original plans (it got no prepromotion prior to it suddenly showing up in the ED and website and wasn't in Generation of CE, unlike SF and Destiny, which were advertised from nearly the start of the show) so Rey would have gotten Impulse instead. So instead Luna almost immediately forgets she saw that conversation and an episode of two later Meyrin is suddenly looking up Athrun's records and becoming interested in him, while Luna gradually stops paying attention to Athrun.
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Old 2013-05-22, 00:48   Link #7288
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the pilots having a fairly personal relationship with each other.
Huh?

The only "pilots" who had a fairly personal relationship with each other where Kira and Athrun. The others didn't know Kira from a hole in the wall. You could include Rey as well, but even that's stretching things imo. As he didn't seem to care until he got the Legend.

Even then, the only effect Athrun had on the Archangel/Minerva "fight" was to have Athrun slap Shinn after "killing" Kira. All Athrun really did on the Minerva was moop in his room. He never tried to inform Shinn-tachi about anything about the Archangel or Kira. He never attempted make them care about Kira/Archangel in anyway.

I mean the only one who comes close to "knowing" anything about Kira aside from Athurn among the Minerva's crew was Luna. And even she forgot about what little she knew eventually.
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Old 2013-05-22, 01:03   Link #7289
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That is true that Athrun never tried to get Shinn to see Kira's POV or care for them at all. Shinn was told they're an enemy, they attacked them multiple times, and Shinn was given orders to fight. As he doesn't even know the pilot and was reeling after Stella's death so he was obviously not going to hold back against Kira or try and understand him. Course it's not like Kira even tried to talk to him anyway either.

So Athrun slapping Shinn for doing his job was really messed up especially since Athrun had a ton of chances to tell Shinn about Kira or the such. Hell, earlier on when Shinn is being hailed a Hero, Athrun decides to keep quiet that the people they liberated murdered the captured soldiers in cold blood when Shinn isn't looking as he's too busy being praised by everyone. So being angry at Shinn for not knowing things that he couldn't possibly know was very wrong of Athrun especially since Athrun constantly kept Shinn in the dark which shows that he doesn't even trust the guy he took under his wing.

At least Char actually taught Kamille and didn't go around slapping him all the time, he was actually very fatherly to him. While Athrun's mentorship of Shinn was extremely abusive.
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Old 2013-05-22, 01:26   Link #7290
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
@BladeEntity My counter is the Archangels actions after JOSHUA. Technically speaking, as soldiers in your view they should have died at JOSHUA because they where ordered to defend said facility to the fullest. Yet they disengaged and basically ran in the face of the enemy. Had they returned to the EA they would have been charged with treason and executed. Yet the Archangels actions are looked upon as being just and right.

Why would Luna's asking questions about the story surrounding her own sister be less so?
They are soldiers as well as humans, generally self preservation is an important aspect of humanity which the AA crew decided was best and how what the EA doing was against their views, and how SEED was trying to portray the AA crew finding the best way to achieve peace.

Luna asking questions is not unjust, its simply wanting to want the truth and as Meyrin's sister its normal to be in some state of denial but once she sees the pictures of Meyrin with Athrun I think she resigns to the fact that she is being treated as a traitor.
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Old 2013-05-22, 01:41   Link #7291
monster
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Originally Posted by Gundamx View Post
Athrun have the power of fan girl to back him up
believe you don't want to anger Athrun fan girl or you will end up without any girlfriend till the end of your life ( joke)
It makes me wonder how Kira ever beat Athrun in some of the character polls.
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
As bad as Kira made Minerva look with Athrun helping out. Just think about how badly Minerva would have been screwed over had Kira/Athrun been working together from the getgo instead of the last ten episodes.
You do realize that Kira was also protecting the Minerva, don't you?
Quote:
I blame Athruns actions on Fakuda trying to give him daddy issues in an attempt to make him deeper than he was. It was an attempt to make him more relatable to Shinn, so he could mentor Shin along the "right" path.
I have my doubts on that, as someone who is not even sure what they're fighting for has no business mentoring others along any path.

As that should be obvious, I think Athrun may have been put there just to antagonize Shinn.
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Personally I thought Athrun was one the main reasons Destiny went wrong in the first place.
Even with some faults, it's still in my top 5 Gundam shows.

Last edited by monster; 2013-05-22 at 01:51.
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Old 2013-05-22, 02:14   Link #7292
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You do realize that Kira was also protecting the Minerva, don't you? I have my doubts on that, as someone who is not even sure what they're fighting for has no business mentoring others along any path.
I meant in terms of character development. If Athrun/Kira had remained a team like the way they where at the end of Seed we wouldn't know a thing about the Minerva's crew aside Shinn, Luna, and Rey. It would be just like Seed where only the MS pilots got character development.

@BladeEntity Like Aquaman OS said she should have known better. Most of the evidence against Athrun was produced by Luna herself. How stupid does she have to be not to recognize her own work exactly?
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Old 2013-05-22, 02:34   Link #7293
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I meant in terms of character development. If Athrun/Kira had remained a team like the way they where at the end of Seed we wouldn't know a thing about the Minerva's crew aside Shinn, Luna, and Rey. It would be just like Seed where only the MS pilots got character development.
What exactly do we know about the Minerva's crew aside Shinn, Luna, and Rey that we wouldn't have known had Athrun remained a team with Kira?
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Old 2013-05-22, 03:35   Link #7294
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@S.Freedom From what I can recall, Luna didn't believe that Meryrin would defect and not that Athrun defected. Meyrin's actions were counted as Treason because she was helping Athrun escape, I believe Luna was shown pictures of Meyrin being together with Athrun as he was making his escape thus she was branded as a traitor. With such evidence it would be hard to be in denial even though before she was shown the picture, she thought it was Athrun's fault; which is probably why she didn't put all the blame on Shinn and instead sought him for comfort.
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Old 2013-05-22, 05:03   Link #7295
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But that still comes down to Athrun being branded a traitor because he was supposedly meeting with Kira and telling him Zaft secrets. And the pictures Luna took used as evidence for that. Which obviously should raise some bells in her head about that being a set up, because Luna was there and took those pictures and would know Athrun wasn't doing anything of the sort.

And if she had reason to suspect that was a frame up (which it was) then no reason to not think the pictures of Athrun and Meyrin weren't also a frame up.

She shouldn't be thinking "Well if Meyrin was with him obviously she's a traitor." She should be thinking "Durandal set him up. We can't trust him anymore."

Last edited by Aquaman OS; 2013-05-22 at 05:50.
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Old 2013-05-22, 07:11   Link #7296
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But that still comes down to Athrun being branded a traitor because he was supposedly meeting with Kira and telling him Zaft secrets. And the pictures Luna took used as evidence for that. Which obviously should raise some bells in her head about that being a set up, because Luna was there and took those pictures and would know Athrun wasn't doing anything of the sort.

And if she had reason to suspect that was a frame up (which it was) then no reason to not think the pictures of Athrun and Meyrin weren't also a frame up.

She shouldn't be thinking "Well if Meyrin was with him obviously she's a traitor." She should be thinking "Durandal set him up. We can't trust him anymore."
she even heard talk about fake lacuse
(I though that will change her persona >>> reason why she will defect but nooooo it was her sister >>>
she never change > than again she was most popular destiny female characters and they need new girlfriends for destiny MC character sine his ex- die...
so they killed her character for the greater good...
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Old 2013-05-22, 10:23   Link #7297
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@BladeEntity But she was being lied to. She was being given false information to "prove" that Athrun and by extension Meyrin where traitors. Information she her self gathered and should have known was false. While it's possible that those presenting said info didn't know they where lieing or that Luna herself gathered the pictures they where showing her. That doesn't explain how or why Luna was a complete imbecile who could not recognize pictures she had previously taken.

Let me put it to you this way. You take pictures/listen to a conversation me and monster have. Than x amount of time later Aquaman OS comes along and tells you we where making derogatory comments about you while showing you the pictures you took of us. Now do you blindly believe him or say "hey I listened to that conversation and nothing of the sort was said"?

And I'm not sure what regulations say in other militaries. But in the US military a subordinate officer(Luna,Athrun,Meyrin) have not only the right but the obligation to ignore/disobey what they consider illegal orders. Otherwise they can be charged/convicted with a crime.
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Old 2013-05-22, 11:03   Link #7298
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@S.Freedom I understand your point about her being an imbecile for not recognizing her own pictures being used to fabricate evidence against the Athrun, Within the short scene in which Luna is being told about the situation, the pictures that she took where not present. With Durandal's position it would be easy to fabricate other implicating evidence, It is possible that the pictures she took where not used at all, especially considering the conversation between them actually was mostly Athrun validating the chairman. The Pictures were in the conversation between Rey and Durandal which could have implied they were used but not in the room when Luna was being brief so I can't be 100% sure.

At most I it could be poor writing in which this wasn't fully fleshed out.

EDIT: I went to watch the episodes just to double confirm.
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Old 2013-05-22, 11:09   Link #7299
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she even heard talk about fake lacuse
(I though that will change her persona >>> reason why she will defect but nooooo it was her sister >>>
she never change > than again she was most popular destiny female characters and they need new girlfriends for destiny MC character sine his ex- die...
so they killed her character for the greater good...
Umm..

There never WAS a Shinn x Stellar, sure he was embarrassed when he saw her naked but the fact of the matter is that he didn't love Stellar in "that" way but instead saw her as a little sister that he needed to protect. After all it did bring back his guilt of being unable to protect his little sister during SEED events. Shinn was also fine if he never saw Stellar ever again if it meant that she could live a life in peace as he cared for her well being as an older brother than lusting after her as a potiential love interest which he wasn't. Lunamaria was always his only love interest in Destiny.

There was also never a Lunamaria x Athrun either. She only had a mild crush on him because he was her idol due to being THEE ZAFT Red. That and his involvement against ZAFT in the last war was covered up completely so no one but the Archangel Crew and certain higher ups, that were almost all killed in SEED, knew of Athrun's defection.

Lunamaria is shown, even more so with the remake, to have an attraction to Shinn and despite Athrun being angry about Cagalli almost marrying off he was still 100% loyal to her and never once considered cheating on her even as women literally threw themselves at him ala Meer.
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Old 2013-05-22, 11:42   Link #7300
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Umm..

There never WAS a Shinn x Stellar, sure he was embarrassed when he saw her naked but the fact of the matter is that he didn't love Stellar in "that" way but instead saw her as a little sister that he needed to protect. After all it did bring back his guilt of being unable to protect his little sister during SEED events. Shinn was also fine if he never saw Stellar ever again if it meant that she could live a life in peace as he cared for her well being as an older brother than lusting after her as a potiential love interest which he wasn't. Lunamaria was always his only love interest in Destiny.

There was also never a Lunamaria x Athrun either. She only had a mild crush on him because he was her idol due to being THEE ZAFT Red. That and his involvement against ZAFT in the last war was covered up completely so no one but the Archangel Crew and certain higher ups, that were almost all killed in SEED, knew of Athrun's defection.

Lunamaria is shown, even more so with the remake, to have an attraction to Shinn and despite Athrun being angry about Cagalli almost marrying off he was still 100% loyal to her and never once considered cheating on her even as women literally threw themselves at him ala Meer.
This must be the 112313th time I hear this from Destined_Fate. Yes, we get it, you like Luna x Shinn pairing soooo much. Feel free to be Luna x Shinn evangelist, but let the rest of us move on to some new un-cyclical topics, shall we?
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