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Old 2013-06-02, 03:42   Link #7421
sky black swordman
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^ Speaking of Meyrin IIRC, didn't Athrun tell Shinn to at least let Meyrin get out of the MS because she nothing to do with what was happeing ?
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Old 2013-06-02, 03:48   Link #7422
The American Average
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Originally Posted by sky black swordman View Post
^ Speaking of Meyrin IIRC, didn't Athrun tell Shinn to at least let Meyrin get out of the MS because she nothing to do with what was happeing ?
Now i don't have the perfect memory of every episode of Mobile Suit Gundam Seed Destiny like some of the posters here but yeah That's what i remember too. i doubt it would be to hard to get Meyrin out of the Gouf for Shinn to get her, They did the hostage exchange in Seed Kira with Lacus to Athrun. they were in space but still.
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Old 2013-06-02, 04:25   Link #7423
monster
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Originally Posted by The American Average View Post
Shinn Knows Athrun is an A-hole to him but a traitor come on. Shinn knows Athrun knew the pilot of the Freedom i'm betting he could understand the pain of losing someone (Stella) Besides Arthun went with and through what Rey did with Shinn too. Shinn knew Athrun wasn't a bad guy he was just confused, If Rey wasn't there or would have shut up long enough for Athrun to make his point things could have been different.
But the fact is Athrun didn't make any point.
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What about Meyrin just because Athrun may be a traitor she deserves to die? Shinn Definitely should know more about Meyrin than Athrun anyway after all Meyrin is Luna's sister, they went the ZAFT Academy together as well, i'd assume they'd talk to each other in down time when nothing was happening.
What about Meyrin? She went along with Athrun, which made her a participant.
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You seem to be taking my comments out of contexts with this one, one or two episodes that are obvious don't change the fact that the other episodes do not make sense and aren't obvious.
Not at all, you used this example and the Destiny Plan as alleged examples of Shinn blindly following Rey and Durandal, and I showed that, in both times, Shinn did not just blindly follow them.

And both times are obvious, as they're shown in the respective episodes.
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My original point is Gundams should be easy to follow plots and are fun to watch hence anyone can watch them. I never had trouble watching Zeta, 00, or Wing and there Gundam those shows have inconsistencies in them to but they didn't break the show like Destiny. (well 00 season 2 is arguable but eh) Destiny at times hurt to watch because of how the characters acted and battles were, it wasn't just the reused animation. wing had it too it never bothers me.
Destiny is also easy to follow if you don't dismiss things that are shown in the episodes.
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Originally Posted by sky black swordman View Post
^ Speaking of Meyrin IIRC, didn't Athrun tell Shinn to at least let Meyrin get out of the MS because she nothing to do with what was happeing ?
The problem is they have proof that Meyrin was a willing participant.

So, again, there's no reason for Shinn to trust Athrun and Meyrin.

Last edited by monster; 2013-06-02 at 04:36.
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Old 2013-06-02, 04:49   Link #7424
The American Average
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
But the fact is Athrun didn't make any point.
Then whats the whole point of Shinn being out there? (Drama maybe) Rey could have easily handle the situation by himself and no real problems would have arise from this, no emo shinn now. after all Rey would just carry the guilt (like he'd even care)

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What about Meyrin? She went along with Athrun, which made her a participant.
Shinn doesn't know, Athrun says she hasn't anything to do with it and just Rey said she is a non-issue, she is meaningless even Shinn says thats harsh more or less

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Not at all, you used this example and the Destiny Plan as alleged examples of Shinn blindly following Rey and Lunamaria, and I showed that in both times, Shinn, did not just blindly follow them. And both times are obvious, as they're shown in the respective episodes.
I'm saying the entire show isn't obvious, the Destiny plan could have been a very interesting evil plan but considering the writers pulled this idea out of their ass with like 10 episodes left. The plan seemed rushed and under developed. Shinn never really gave it lots of thought, 2 scenes is all i can remember him really thinking about it. You really think in those 2 scenes gave Shinn enough time to give his Life changing choice thought?

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Destiny is also easy to follow if you don't dismiss things that are shown in the episodes.
Easy to follow? not really, its all over the place. with ridiculous amounts of recaps how could you not know where you are in the show.

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The problem is they have proof that Meyrin was a willing participant. So, again, there's no reason for Shinn to trust Athrun and Meyrin.
What proof is there that is supporting that Meyrin is a traitor right then and there? its not like Rey has the Photos on him then during the battle.
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Old 2013-06-02, 06:08   Link #7425
Skye629
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Originally Posted by The American Average View Post

Shinn doesn't know, Athrun says she hasn't anything to do with it and just Rey said she is a non-issue, she is meaningless even Shinn says thats harsh more or less

I'm saying the entire show isn't obvious, the Destiny plan could have been a very interesting evil plan but considering the writers pulled this idea out of their ass with like 10 episodes left. The plan seemed rushed and under developed. Shinn never really gave it lots of thought, 2 scenes is all i can remember him really thinking about it. You really think in those 2 scenes gave Shinn enough time to give his Life changing choice thought?

Easy to follow? not really, its all over the place. with ridiculous amounts of recaps how could you not know where you are in the show.

What proof is there that is supporting that Meyrin is a traitor right then and there? its not like Rey has the Photos on him then during the battle.
Didnt Rey see her enter the Gouf cockpit with Athrun while he was shooting at them? And yes on the grand scale of things she is meaningless

I think introducing the destiny plan with 10 eps to go was fine, but they could have hinted at it though in earlier episodes (and dont all evil villains reveal their true secret "evil" plans near the end?)

On the contrary the recaps makes the show ridiculously easy to follow, to the point that its goddamn annoying, they keep throwing the same shit at you to the point you remember most of the details. I would even argue that to a simple/casual watcher it would be easy to follow given that the individual have been keeping up with all the episodes in order (and have background in SEED down), the trick is to not think too deeply about it, like we are (this is where all the bad stuff/problems/inconsistencies becomes glaringly obvious), and just absorb the material as it comes. Of course though I will note this may depend on the reason the individual is watching. If you are in for the mech battles with a decent/adequate plot holding it together, then its fine. If you are in for plot evaluation, prepare to be severely disappointed

What proof? Im quite sure there are security cams in mobile suit hangars (big help they were at the start of the show rofl)
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Old 2013-06-02, 11:19   Link #7426
monster
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Originally Posted by The American Average View Post
Then whats the whole point of Shinn being out there? (Drama maybe)
Sure.
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Shinn doesn't know, Athrun says she hasn't anything to do with it and just Rey said she is a non-issue, she is meaningless even Shinn says thats harsh more or less
Shinn still made his choice.
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I'm saying the entire show isn't obvious, the Destiny plan could have been a very interesting evil plan but considering the writers pulled this idea out of their ass with like 10 episodes left. The plan seemed rushed and under developed. Shinn never really gave it lots of thought, 2 scenes is all i can remember him really thinking about it. You really think in those 2 scenes gave Shinn enough time to give his Life changing choice thought?
It's enough time for Shinn to decide that, at the time, he had no reason not to continue being a ZAFT soldier.
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Easy to follow? not really, its all over the place. with ridiculous amounts of recaps how could you not know where you are in the show.
Indeed, how could you not know? They make it so easy with the recaps to remind you.
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What proof is there that is supporting that Meyrin is a traitor right then and there? its not like Rey has the Photos on him then during the battle.
Rey said they have camera footage of Meyrin not being Athrun's hostage, but instead a willing participant.

If you're missing obvious things like these, it's obvious you don't remember much about Destiny and you should rewatch the relevant episodes at least.
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Old 2013-06-02, 11:44   Link #7427
Aquaman OS
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Note that Rey doesn't have any of this proof on him at the time. He litereally just wakes Shinn up and tells him to come with him and launch Destiny to go kill Athrun cause he's a traitor, and Shinn does so on Rey's word alone.

Rey then breaks in any time Athrun tries to say anything, so that Shinn doesn't really have time to think about anything he's saying. And then Rey basically goads Shinn into a Seed mode rage where he quickly cuts them down before he can realize what he's doing (since he was quite capable of taking them alive, but "Killed" the crippled Gouf anyway)

Of course afterwards they probably showed "proof" that Shinn did the "right" thing since the whole thing was a set up anyway. So this whole thing doesn't really make Shinn "bad" so much as pitiful, and yet another example of how easily Durandal and Rey can control him. It's also the first hint of the stress of the war and how Durandal isn't trying to heal this, is starting to take its toll on Shinn.
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Old 2013-06-02, 12:28   Link #7428
monster
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Note that Rey doesn't have any of this proof on him at the time. He litereally just wakes Shinn up and tells him to come with him and launch Destiny to go kill Athrun cause he's a traitor, and Shinn does so on Rey's word alone.
Rey and Shinn were in communication with headquarters, who would have the proof with them. Also, it's not just based on Rey's words, because Athrun himself confirmed that he's against the Chairman.
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Rey then breaks in any time Athrun tries to say anything, so that Shinn doesn't really have time to think about anything he's saying.
That would be Athrun's fault for not being able to break in and cut off Rey.
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And then Rey basically goads Shinn into a Seed mode rage where he quickly cuts them down before he can realize what he's doing (since he was quite capable of taking them alive, but "Killed" the crippled Gouf anyway)
And in the mean time, Athrun did nothing to counter any of Rey's words. The only thing Athrun did was basically put Shinn on the spot, asking him to trust someone who's been on his case against the people who have supported him.
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Old 2013-06-02, 13:07   Link #7429
Aquaman OS
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Athrun hardly had the time to explain his rather long and complicated story "I met with Kira to tell them to back off, they didn't listen and now the chairman and Rey are using photo's from then to set me up." while they were shooting him.

And even then there was really nothing he could of said, Durandal had him good. Which is heartbreaking for poor Athrun, but just another way that Destiny's writing forced him into a sucky situation and had everything go right once again for Durandal. Thankfully its the last time, and after that he gets back to the side he should have been on from the start and can start having confidence in what he's doing again, and the CF finally starts making headway against the up till then invincible Durandal.
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Old 2013-06-02, 13:32   Link #7430
The American Average
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Shinn still made his choice.
shinn sure is a douche to kill is best-ish friend's sister and totally forgetting what they all went through.

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Indeed, how could you not know? They make it so easy with the recaps to remind you.
Just because we know where we are in the plot doesn't make the story obvious. why did Meyrin even go with Athrun in the first place? there never was an obvious answer to that, which results in the over analyzing i mentioned


Quote:
Rey said they have camera footage of Meyrin not being Athrun's hostage, but instead a willing participant. If you're missing obvious things like these, it's obvious you don't remember much about Destiny and you should rewatch the relevant episodes at least.
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Originally Posted by The American Average View Post
Now i don't have the perfect memory of every episode of Mobile Suit Gundam Seed Destiny like some of the posters here

so I went and watch the episode, man everybody was a single minded dumbass in that episode. Rey said they had video evidence yes but in this episode i don't believe they went to verify Rey testament either. Durandal just took Reys word which is understandable for Durandal to do so, after all he wants athrun out of the way. Athrun says Meyrin has nothing to do with this and he said this several times to both Rey and Shinn, no one seemed to care. when i finished the episode man Rey was flipping evil looking in that fight its almost as if Rey wanted Shinn to shoot down Meyrin/Athrun and not try to talk it out like Shinn wanted to do. Rey totally called Shinn out on all his statements and backed him into a corner with only the choice to shoot them down. Man Durandal really put the wool over their eyes with this one. clap clap Durandal great move.

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Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
I think introducing the destiny plan with 10 eps to go was fine, but they could have hinted at it though in earlier episodes (and dont all evil villains reveal their true secret "evil" plans near the end?)
Fair enough

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On the contrary the recaps makes the show ridiculously easy to follow, to the point that its goddamn annoying, they keep throwing the same shit at you to the point you remember most of the details. I would even argue that to a simple/casual watcher it would be easy to follow given that the individual have been keeping up with all the episodes in order (and have background in SEED down), the trick is to not think too deeply about it, like we are (this is where all the bad stuff/problems/inconsistencies becomes glaringly obvious), and just absorb the material as it comes. Of course though I will note this may depend on the reason the individual is watching. If you are in for the mech battles with a decent/adequate plot holding it together, then its fine. If you are in for plot evaluation, prepare to be severely disappointed
Yes it is easy to follow but that doesn't make it any more obvious. when people over analyze the simple say its obvious that's when it gets funny.
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Old 2013-06-02, 14:07   Link #7431
Aquaman OS
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when i finished the episode man Rey was flipping evil looking in that fight its almost as if Rey wanted Shinn to shoot down Meyrin/Athrun and not try to talk it out like Shinn wanted to do. Rey totally called Shinn out on all his statements and backed him into a corner with only the choice to shoot them down. Man Durandal really put the wool over their eyes with this one. clap clap Durandal great move.
That's EXACTLY what Rey was doing. Remember in Revenge of the Sith when Palpatine lets Windu back him into a corner and begs Anikin to attack Windu or else he'll lose his chance to save Padme, even though he immediately gets back up to finish Windu off and is later shown to be able to fight off Yoda? Meaning he did it only so he'd be forced to betray the Jedi and have no other paths left to walk but to follow Palpatine?

It's the same thing. If he makes Shinn kill Athrun and Meyrin then Shinn will feel compelled to stick with Durandal, because otherwise that would mean admitting to himself he made the wrong choice and he killed them for nothing.
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Old 2013-06-02, 17:27   Link #7432
monster
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Athrun hardly had the time to explain his rather long and complicated story "I met with Kira to tell them to back off, they didn't listen and now the chairman and Rey are using photo's from then to set me up." while they were shooting him.
Athrun barely even tried to explain. In that whole encounter, Athrun was mostly silent other than the part about accusing Durandal of killing the whole world and letting Meyrin go. Meanwhile, Athrun allowed Rey to talk without giving any defense.
Quote:
And even then there was really nothing he could of said, Durandal had him good. Which is heartbreaking for poor Athrun, but just another way that Destiny's writing forced him into a sucky situation and had everything go right once again for Durandal. Thankfully its the last time, and after that he gets back to the side he should have been on from the start and can start having confidence in what he's doing again, and the CF finally starts making headway against the up till then invincible Durandal.
Well, be that as it may, it still means that Shinn had no reason to trust Athrun.
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shinn sure is a douche to kill is best-ish friend's sister
Who just so happens to be a traitor. You think Shinn is a douche? ZAFT thinks Meyrin is worse than that.
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Just because we know where we are in the plot doesn't make the story obvious. why did Meyrin even go with Athrun in the first place? there never was an obvious answer to that, which results in the over analyzing i mentioned
Simple: naivety and ignorance. Don't make it more complicated than it really is.
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Athrun says Meyrin has nothing to do with this and he said this several times to both Rey and Shinn, no one seemed to care.
Actually, Athrun only said it once, while Rey actually pointed out several times that they are both at fault.
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Yes it is easy to follow but that doesn't make it any more obvious.
It can't be easy to follow if it's not obvious.

And sure, it's so obvious, that it can't be any more obvious.
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Old 2013-06-02, 18:06   Link #7433
Aquaman OS
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Naivety and ignorance? If anything she was the only person in Zaft who didn't buy Durandal's frame job hence her helping him. She actually read his file thought about it and decided he was worth helping, and when Rey caught her and starting shooting at them to kill with extreme predjudice Athrun promptly brought her with him to save them.
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Old 2013-06-02, 18:18   Link #7434
monster
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Naivety and ignorance? If anything she was the only person in Zaft who didn't buy Durandal's frame job hence her helping him. She actually read his file thought about it and decided he was worth helping, and when Rey caught her and starting shooting at them to kill with extreme predjudice Athrun promptly brought her with him to save them.
But that's not what's in Meyrin's mind at that moment when she helped Athrun hide from the soldiers. She herself said she didn't really know why she's helping him.

She knows that he's a nice guy, which he proved when he didn't take her hostage, so that obviously factored into why she's helping him. But if Athrun had really been a spy, she could've ended up dead as soon as he got the Gouf.

So it's still naivety, ignorance, and a little teenage crush on her part that made her impulsively help him. Fortunately for her, she was right about him.
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Old 2013-06-02, 18:23   Link #7435
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Well in the special edition Rey shouting that they're elminating him because he's not useful to them is pretty much a big hint to her. Plus he could have just killed her, but he didn't, even though she could have easily yelled for help if she didn't decide to trust him.
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Old 2013-06-02, 18:34   Link #7436
monster
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Well in the special edition Rey shouting that they're elminating him because he's not useful to them is pretty much a big hint to her.
That's after Meyrin already helped Athrun.
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Plus he could have just killed her, but he didn't, even though she could have easily yelled for help if she didn't decide to trust him.
That's what I just said; Athrun being a nice guy toward her made it easier for her to choose to help him.
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Old 2013-06-02, 19:00   Link #7437
The American Average
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Simple: naivety and ignorance. Don't make it more complicated than it really is.
really? that's funny she just betrays everyone she holds dear because of ignorance/crush for Athrun great job Meyrin

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Actually, Athrun only said it once, while Rey actually pointed out several times that they are both at fault.
and they didn't even bother to hear Athrun or Meyrin out the labeled them traitors and ordered to kill them.

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It can't be easy to follow if it's not obvious. And sure, it's so obvious, that it can't be any more obvious.
you're funny, of course obvious can't be more obvious. being easy to watch and obvious are different. i find Excel Saga easy to watch but its clearly not obvious in where its going.
Destiny isn't obvious? everything just flows to what the writers need, Shinn Stabbing Kira in Impulse vs Freedom it was obvious that Kira should have died but nope Obviously kira can survive sitting on Nuclear explosions.
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Old 2013-06-02, 19:24   Link #7438
monster
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really? that's funny she just betrays everyone she holds dear because of ignorance/crush for Athrun great job Meyrin
Indeed.
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and they didn't even bother to hear Athrun or Meyrin out the labeled them traitors and ordered to kill them.
Well, they are traitors. Athrun confirmed it.
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Destiny isn't obvious? everything just flows to what the writers need, Shinn Stabbing Kira in Impulse vs Freedom it was obvious that Kira should have died but nope Obviously kira can survive sitting on Nuclear explosions.
Obviously, because there was no nuclear explosion.
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Old 2013-06-02, 20:31   Link #7439
The American Average
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there was no nuclear explosion.
lol so what was that huge explosion then? even if that wasn't a Nuclear explosion that was a huge one and no one should have survived that not even Shinn.
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Old 2013-06-02, 20:37   Link #7440
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For the last fucking goddamn time, the giant explosion was caused by the Minerva firing its positron cannon in-atmosphere, which is always incredibly dangerous (which is why Murrue refused to use it on Earth in the first season).
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