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Old 2013-06-04, 11:05   Link #7481
Yesman
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
They're talking about phase 34 and the aftermath.

Why do you think they're talking about the Meer episode?
Isn't that the episode where Kira said he hesitated? Or am I remembering it wrong?
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Old 2013-06-04, 11:28   Link #7482
monster
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Originally Posted by Yesman View Post
Isn't that the episode where Kira said he hesitated? Or am I remembering it wrong?
By Meer episode, are you talking about the episode titled Meer? That's much later in the series, so I doubt they would still be talking about the loss of Freedom by then.
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Old 2013-06-04, 12:17   Link #7483
Aquaman OS
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Originally Posted by Yesman View Post
What does that have anything to do with propaganda? It's obvious that Kira was enough when he beamspammed the hell out of the grunts before Shinn launched.

And honestly, when was the last time the Arch Angel was useful against mobile suits? A freakin' GINN almost shot it down, for cryin' out loud.

Didn't Kira say something like bringing Cagalli back to Orb being the main priority?
Kira's wasn't exactly enough. They were having minor difficulty even before Shinn and Minerva showed up. Well Kira wasn't, but AA was. To the point where Amagi demanded to know why they wouldn't let AA actually destroy anything (they were intentionally firing near misses, as Talia points out when AA outmanuever's them but only fires some missiles around them rather than damaging the ship) and Murasame pilots take off and help out, but Murrue says that Kira told them that trying to get them to fight Zaft was probably why Zaft was attacking in first the place, so they were going to escape without having Orb forces get involved.

Bringing Cagalli back to Orb being the main priority was Kira telling them not to surrender to Talia when she offered to spare their lives, and to leave him behind if need be. Something that they disobeyed when Cagalli went out to save him anyway.

They never say its propaganda, but that's the only logical reason as to why they aren't slaughtering the Zaft forces enmass like they later do when it's obvious nothing they do can avoid conflict with Zaft because Durandal is hell bent on getting every country to submit to him.
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Old 2013-06-04, 20:20   Link #7484
Skye629
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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
Not to mention, can't exactly have a ton of chest flyers containing nuclear reactors..... It would get pretty expensive.
Lol true this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
There was no need for it in Durandal's eyes, as everyone with a Gundam that would have resisted was supposedly dead (Kira and Athrun miraculous recovery and new Gundam's took him by surprise) so all Destiny needed to do was take out Destroy's and grunts.
Well, more proof to Durandal's amazing foresight/planning then, because it was highly likely the Destiny development was already in the construction phase by the time of Operation Angel Down
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Old 2013-06-05, 00:09   Link #7485
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
By Meer episode, are you talking about the episode titled Meer? That's much later in the series, so I doubt they would still be talking about the loss of Freedom by then.
Actually, I'm talking about the other Meer episode, not the recap one. I think it's the episode before that. The one where Kira & company went SHOPPING about discussing the Destiny Plan and Shinn.
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Old 2013-06-05, 23:39   Link #7486
georgedu
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Shinn is so "retarded".

1. Blames Kira's Freedom for Heine's death(Heine=dies on first battle=what a noob) when clearly his Extended "lover"(Stellar) killed him.
2. Blames Kira's Freedom for his Extended "lover" death when he should be blaming Neo(Mu that is manipulated by Djibril) for breaking his promise and realizing that Kira did it to save civilian's lives from fcking destruction like how his family was killed in the past.......
3. Takes advantage of Kira's no kill policy(how much more cowardly can u get) and uses cheap tactics such as throwing his machine's body parts at him and making them explode when Kira is not even trying to fight him and only thinking about protecting the archangel. ( Not to mention the fact that Kira turned off the nuclear reactor to not get him killed and Shinn says "Damn it" to get into seed mode almost every time....)
4.Overall, he was really annoying in the whole series except for the meeting with Kira in person.


For people who didn't really understand the plot of Gundam Seed Destiny , this sums it up:
Chairman Durandal "acts" as a good person who wants world peace between Naturals and Coordinators when he just wants his Destiny Plan(Destiny Plan is basically where everyone's role is decided already and they basically can't change their destiny after they are born.)
Djibril(Basically the leader of Blue Cosmos)wants ZAFT(Plants) to be eliminated from the world.
Orb is pressured to join which side but while it has been given an alliance treaty with Djbril (AA) and when Orb has not accepted it yet with debate , Minerva(ZAFT ship) resides in their territory.
Leader of Orb( Cagalli) is pressured to sign the treaty and then Minerva gets attacked.
Kira's Team of Archangel disapproves of both Chairman Durandal's and Djibril's actions.
Durandal defeats Djibril, Kira with Eternal and Archangel defeat Durandal, rest of ZAFT alliance with Orb............WORLD PEACE AGAIN!

The beginning of GSD was kinda......stupid.
I mean how crappy can the security get on THREE NEW MODELS , WTF was ZAFT thinking, in addition, there wasn't even a freaking auto alarm , the almost dead random had to click the red button.....THERE WASNT EVEN A LOCK ON THE GUNDAMS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesman View Post
What does that have anything to do with propaganda? It's obvious that Kira was enough when he beamspammed the hell out of the grunts before Shinn launched.

And honestly, when was the last time the Arch Angel was useful against mobile suits? A freakin' GINN almost shot it down, for cryin' out loud.

Didn't Kira say something like bringing Cagalli back to Orb being the main priority?

Can't you guys just wait for Episode 34?
Durandal edited out Kira's Freedom from the scene because Freedom was beam spamming the grunts that were destroying the cities and destroyed the Destroy that was destroying the civilians cities, he wanted the civilians to see that ONLY ZAFT helped them from destruction to earn their support *face palm* . That is the exact definition of war propaganda , you should learn some more vocabulary.



When was the last time ANY battleship was useful against mobile suits without their own mobile suits? *face palm*.

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2013-06-06 at 00:29.
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Old 2013-06-06, 00:07   Link #7487
Skye629
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Originally Posted by georgedu View Post
Shinn is so "retarded".

1. Blames Kira's Freedom for Heine's death(Heine=dies on first battle=what a noob) when clearly his Extended "lover"(Stellar) killed him.
2. Blames Kira's Freedom for his Extended "lover" death when he should be blaming Neo(Mu that is manipulated by Djibril) for breaking his promise and realizing that Kira did it to save civilian's lives from fcking destruction like how his family was killed in the past.......

Dear god man, you do realize characters in shows are people, they dont know all the shit going on in the world, they are not god or something, WE know this, but THEY dont

3. Takes advantage of Kira's no kill policy(how much more cowardly can u get) and uses cheap tactics such as throwing his machine's body parts at him and making them explode when Kira is not even trying to fight him and only thinking about protecting the archangel. ( Not to mention the fact that Kira turned off the nuclear reactor to not get him killed and Shinn says "Damn it" to get into seed mode almost every time....)

Alls fair in love and war man, get over it, Shinn took every appropriate action to fight against Kira, and like I noted earlier he DOES NOT know Kira shut off the reactor, nor did he care, hes a soldier, you can die at any moment

4.Overall, he was really annoying in the whole series except for the meeting with Kira in person.

I believe this have been established by the majority of gundam fans

For people who didn't really understand the plot of Gundam Seed Destiny , this sums it up:
Chairman Durandal "acts" as a good person who wants world peace between Naturals and Coordinators when he just wants his Destiny Plan(Destiny Plan is basically where everyone's role is decided already and they basically can't change their destiny after they are born.)
Djibril(Basically the leader of Blue Cosmos)wants ZAFT(Plants) to be eliminated from the world.
Orb is pressured to join which side but while it has been given an alliance treaty with Djbril (AA) and when Orb has not accepted it yet with debate , Minerva(ZAFT ship) resides in their territory.
Leader of Orb( Cagalli) is pressured to sign the treaty and then Minerva gets attacked.
Kira's Team of Archangel disapproves of both Chairman Durandal's and Djibril's actions.
Durandal defeats Djibril, Kira with Eternal and Archangel defeat Durandal, rest of ZAFT alliance with Orb............WORLD PEACE AGAIN!
pfffttttttt, gotta give you this one xD

Quote:
Originally Posted by georgedu View Post
The beginning of GSD was kinda......stupid.
I mean how crappy can the security get on THREE NEW MODELS , WTF was ZAFT thinking, in addition, there wasn't even a freaking auto alarm , the almost dead random had to click the red button.....THERE WASNT EVEN A LOCK ON THE GUNDAMS
Eh this problem is not exclusive to DESTINY

Quote:
Originally Posted by georgedu View Post
Your stupid, you answered your own question in a bad way.......Durandal edited out Kira's Freedom from the scene because Freedom was beam spamming the grunts that were destroying the cities and destroyed the Destroy that was destroying the civilians cities, he wanted the civilians to see that ONLY ZAFT helped them from destruction to earn their support *face palm* . That is the exact definition of war propaganda , you should learn some more vocabulary.

When was the last time ANY battleship was useful against mobile suits without their own mobile suits? *face palm*.
I highly suggest you refrain from that negative tone I am perceiving. Also the AA & Minerva are not exactly battleships, their primary function was as a MS carrier (each for their respective gundam series prior to jacking), albiet they were armed with battleship grade weapons to support solo missions (where they had to engage in ship vs ship combat)

DUDE, 1 POST

Edit: Oops he/shes new, dont double/multipost

Last edited by Skye629; 2013-06-06 at 00:20.
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Old 2013-06-06, 02:41   Link #7488
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Kira did get Heine killed, had Kira not appeared and attacked the Archangel, thus distracting them from their fight, than it's HIGHLY unlikely that Heine would have died as he was easily going toe to toe with Stellar.

Shinn did blame Neo as Neo lied to him, however as far as he knows Neo died at that battle as he never sees Neo again. Shinn also blames, rightly, Kira for killing Stellar since he literally does kill her.

So? War isn't fair. Or are you saying those that used Archers against the Spartans were "cheating" as well because they exploited the fact that Spartans thought Archery was for wimps?

Hah,that's just your opinion. Good thing it doesn't matter as plenty liked Shinn and many rightly agree that Shinn should have been given more spotlight and he only went down hill hard when Kira appeared and they had to backpedal to make Shinn into a villain for Kira and Athrun to fight.

Riiight... Like the Security was any better in SEED when the Gundams were stolen. Or in Gundam Wing with how easily the Wing Zero switched hands and factions before finally ending up with Heero.
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Old 2013-06-06, 03:29   Link #7489
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Riiight... Like the Security was any better in SEED when the Gundams were stolen. Or in Gundam Wing with how easily the Wing Zero switched hands and factions before finally ending up with Heero.
Wing Zero was first acquired and piloted by Quatre. Then purposefully given to others (such as Trowa, Wu-Fei, Heero, etc). Giving Wing Zero to others to pilot has its own purpose during each event. Security has nothing to do with it when you’re giving the Gundam to someone else on purpose.
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Old 2013-06-06, 04:17   Link #7490
monster
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Like the Security was any better in SEED when the Gundams were stolen.
Armory One is a full military station protected by mobile suits while Heliopolis/Morgenroete was not, especially since the G weapons project was supposed to be a secret. Also, the Gundams in Armory One were stolen by three people while it took a larger group of soldiers to steal the Gundams in Heliopolis.

So the security in SEED was actually a little better. But even if it was just as bad, it still makes the situation in Destiny worse, as that means they've learned nothing from the past. (But that seems to be a common theme.)

Of course, if we think this has all been a plan of Durandal, then it makes more sense.
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Old 2013-06-06, 06:31   Link #7491
Yesman
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Originally Posted by georgedu View Post
Durandal edited out Kira's Freedom from the scene because Freedom was beam spamming the grunts that were destroying the cities and destroyed the Destroy that was destroying the civilians cities, he wanted the civilians to see that ONLY ZAFT helped them from destruction to earn their support *face palm* .
Hrm? Can you try to read what I quoted first?:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaman
That and the implication was he was wary of being too aggressive against Zaft forces after seeing Durandal edit them out of Berlin (despite them doing nearly all the work) and use it as yet more pro Zaft propaganda as to why non Zaft should be wiped out. Which is also why he didn't let the Murasame's help out or let AA do anything other than fire near misses both of which would have won them the battle.
And I wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
What does that have anything to do with propaganda? It's obvious that Kira was enough when he beamspammed the hell out of the grunts before Shinn launched.
We were obviously talking about episode 34.
Reading comprehension, champ. Ever heard of it? Try to read Aquaman's response to mine.

I was just stating that the propaganda had nothing to do with the Murasames and Archangel not helping Kira against the Minerva, the Compton and Impulse. It's more or less Kira trying to handle everything himself to make sure Cagalli makes it to Orb, so he didn't let her or the others fight.

EDIT: Thinking about it. If Cagalli and the Archangel did decide to fight the Compton head on, then I'm sure Talia wouldn't even think about giving Murrue the warning and would be forced to prep the Tannhäuser before the Minverva reaches the Archangel's range.

Quote:
That is the exact definition of war propaganda ,
You're too focused on the propaganda itself, rather than the battle in episode 34.

Quote:
you should learn some more vocabulary.
Thanks for the suggestion, but I know what *face palm* means.

Quote:
When was the last time ANY battleship was useful against mobile suits without their own mobile suits?
Are you talking about battleships just in Seed, or Gundam in general? If it's the latter then you're wrong. Still, it's pretty ridiculous that a measly GINN almost managed to take down a high-class vessel like the Archangel.

Quote:
*face palm*.
And let's leave our discussion at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destiny_Fate
Kira did get Heine killed, had Kira not appeared and attacked the Archangel, thus distracting them from their fight, than it's HIGHLY unlikely that Heine would have died as he was easily going toe to toe with Stellar.
Well, If Kira wasn't there, Minerva would've been able to fire its positron cannon, wiping out Yuuna and Neo(and most of the Orb fleet), which would make Stella go crazy, which would pretty much seal Heine's win. And since there's no distractions, Sting would go down eventually, even if Athrun was being wishy-washy. Either Auel goes down as well, or retreat from the loss of morale(and Neo). This is probably the most plausible scenario(unless I'm missing something) if Kira didn't intrude.

I don't know if it's a good thing that Kira did intrude, since the entire battle was stacked on the Minerva's favor before he showed up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster
Armory One is a full military station protected by mobile suits
From what I gathered from Destiny Astray, the place had Phantom Pain spies all over the place. They managed to steal Proto-Savior, after all. But I could be wrong, though.

Last edited by Yesman; 2013-06-06 at 06:42.
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Old 2013-06-06, 10:30   Link #7492
georgedu
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Kira did get Heine killed, had Kira not appeared and attacked the Archangel, thus distracting them from their fight, than it's HIGHLY unlikely that Heine would have died as he was easily going toe to toe with Stellar.

Shinn did blame Neo as Neo lied to him, however as far as he knows Neo died at that battle as he never sees Neo again. Shinn also blames, rightly, Kira for killing Stellar since he literally does kill her.

So? War isn't fair. Or are you saying those that used Archers against the Spartans were "cheating" as well because they exploited the fact that Spartans thought Archery was for wimps?

Hah,that's just your opinion. Good thing it doesn't matter as plenty liked Shinn and many rightly agree that Shinn should have been given more spotlight and he only went down hill hard when Kira appeared and they had to backpedal to make Shinn into a villain for Kira and Athrun to fight.

Riiight... Like the Security was any better in SEED when the Gundams were stolen. Or in Gundam Wing with how easily the Wing Zero switched hands and factions before finally ending up with Heero.
Heine clearly could have just left the Freedom alone, if you rewatch that episode of his death, he's the one who slowly *thrusted* into Stellar's path of blade lol because he wanted to kill Kira for being *cocky* in his mind.............

There was not a single scene with Shinn even having the smallest hatred or thought toward Neo for Stellar's death...lol.

I am just saying it was cowardly

plenty hated Shinn and many rightly agree that Shinn had all the spotlight* (He was the main character of GSD , was that not enough spotlight )

Security was better in SEED(ZAFT used actual mobile suits and more than 3 little people to infiltrate the nation, don't forget the fact that heliopolis was a neutral nation so they didn't expect an attack there.

In GSD, they were in an actual military faction and 3 little people were able to steal 3 of the best GUNDAMS.

The security was definitely alottttt better in the military faction
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Old 2013-06-06, 11:30   Link #7493
monster
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Originally Posted by Yesman View Post
From what I gathered from Destiny Astray, the place had Phantom Pain spies all over the place. They managed to steal Proto-Savior, after all. But I could be wrong, though.
Thus, making it even worse.
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Old 2013-06-06, 11:57   Link #7494
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Originally Posted by Yesman View Post
Thinking about it. If Cagalli and the Archangel did decide to fight the Compton head on, then I'm sure Talia wouldn't even think about giving Murrue the warning and would be forced to prep the Tannhäuser before the Minverva reaches the Archangel's range.

No reason to think that. She also offered to spare Kira if he stood down and he was actively fighting against them.
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Old 2013-06-06, 13:11   Link #7495
The American Average
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Originally Posted by georgedu View Post
I am just saying it was cowardly

plenty hated Shinn and many rightly agree that Shinn had all the spotlight* (He was the main character of GSD , was that not enough spotlight )
you know with Shinn being cowardly. With Shinn's fight with kira, he was literally having a headbutting contest with a train. Kira is an unstoppable force in Destiny Kira can single handily stop entire full scale battles what makes you think Shinn can just fight that head on

wasn't Shinn whole purpose at the beginning to be a "love to hate' character, when you think about Kamille he was kinda unlikable at the beginning of Zeta then started to develop into the character he ended up as. with Kira introduction as a main lead Shinn never got that chance to develop, after all Kira and like 3 more recap episodes with recaps in real episodes not much time for little Shinn.

Shinn has always been the main character, no one i think argues that its just lime light left him for a more popular characters Kira, Athrun, and Lacus. which is sad really i always thought the Destiny cast looked way more interesting than the Seed cast.

Quote:
Security was better in SEED(ZAFT used actual mobile suits and more than 3 little people to infiltrate the nation, don't forget the fact that heliopolis was a neutral nation so they didn't expect an attack there. In GSD, they were in an actual military faction and 3 little people were able to steal 3 of the best GUNDAMS.
The security was definitely alottttt better in the military faction
well wasn't there a huge training exercise going plus they had Cagalli from Orb making a special appearance i think ZAFT's attention was placed elsewhere. thats probably what Phantom Pain was counting on and why they staged that attack then and there cause if they would have done it earlier the suits wouldn't have been ready, any later and they would have lost their chance due to the raise in security or they would have already been given to ZAFT pilots
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Old 2013-06-06, 14:20   Link #7496
Skye629
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Originally Posted by georgedu View Post
Heine clearly could have just left the Freedom alone, if you rewatch that episode of his death, he's the one who slowly *thrusted* into Stellar's path of blade lol because he wanted to kill Kira for being *cocky* in his mind.............

There was not a single scene with Shinn even having the smallest hatred or thought toward Neo for Stellar's death...lol.

I am just saying it was cowardly

plenty hated Shinn and many rightly agree that Shinn had all the spotlight* (He was the main character of GSD , was that not enough spotlight )
That would have been impossible, Kira would have interfered with Heine's duel sooner or later, if you did not notice he practically went to every engagement and shut down every combatant down during that fight till a retreat was called

Shinn DID despise Neo, for bringing Stella into the war, however you do not see him raging about it because he was under the assumption that Neo kept his promise to him after he handed Stella back, as such he mostly let it go after the promise was made. However this was shattered later in Berlin after Stella was revealed to be the Destroy's pilot. Of course the aftermath of the battle for Shinn was Kira killing her, and Neo most likely dead

Shinn's tactics were NOT cowardly, it was SMART. If you did not notice he had a flawless victory as everything went as planned (asides getting hit from the tanhauser shot explosion)

He did NOT have all the spotlight, Kira saw to that after he and AA started their little interventions, following Athrun's defect most of the screen time then went to the AA/Orb/Lacus and co., The only time we get to see the Minervas crew in their own spotlight again was in their little operation against Djibril on the moon prior to the final battle

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Originally Posted by The American Average View Post
wasn't Shinn whole purpose at the beginning to be a "love to hate' character, when you think about Kamille he was kinda unlikable at the beginning of Zeta then started to develop into the character he ended up as. with Kira introduction as a main lead Shinn never got that chance to develop, after all Kira and like 3 more recap episodes with recaps in real episodes not much time for little Shinn.

Shinn has always been the main character, no one i think argues that its just lime light left him for a more popular characters Kira, Athrun, and Lacus. which is sad really i always thought the Destiny cast looked way more interesting than the Seed cast.
^^^THIS^^^

I sorta disagree on the Destiny cast though (the new characters), only Shinn stood out to me with full potential to be a great character like Kamille.
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Old 2013-06-06, 15:36   Link #7497
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Well since it was always the plan to have Shinn become the fallen hero that couldn't let go of his hate or realize Durandal was using him, then it makes sense that he'd go out of the limelight once that was made clear. And once Shinn made it clear that he wasn't interested in Athrun's "weak" Clyne Faction morals and accepted Durandal's Logos plan there was no real need to keep him in the limelight when he wasn't the hero anymore.
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Old 2013-06-06, 17:09   Link #7498
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Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
I sorta disagree on the Destiny cast though (the new characters), only Shinn stood out to me with full potential to be a great character like Kamille.
I've always been curious if anyone actually genuinely liked Kamille. Much of the things in the show, including several late segment acts, were often result of his childish fit. I never felt he was convinced of his final resolution at the end.

Personally, I found the ZETA trilogies movies to be far more comprehensible and Kamille more likable.

Watching Zeta, I found Fa Yuiry to be so dedicated to him to the point where I think she should be nominated for sainthood.

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Old 2013-06-06, 19:58   Link #7499
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Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
That would have been impossible, Kira would have interfered with Heine's duel sooner or later, if you did not notice he practically went to every engagement and shut down every combatant down during that fight till a retreat was called

Shinn DID despise Neo, for bringing Stella into the war, however you do not see him raging about it because he was under the assumption that Neo kept his promise to him a
fter he handed Stella back, as such he mostly let it go after the promise was made. However this was shattered later in Berlin after Stella was revealed to be the Destroy's pilot. Of course the aftermath of the battle for Shinn was Kira killing her, and Neo most likely dead


Shinn's tactics were NOT cowardly, it was SMART. If you did not notice he had a flawless victory as everything went as planned (asides getting hit from the tanhauser shot explosion)

He did NOT have all the spotlight, Kira saw to that after he and AA started their little interventions, following Athrun's defect most of the screen time then went to the AA/Orb/Lacus and co., The only time we get to see the Minervas crew in their own spotlight again was in their little operation against Djibril on the moon prior to the final battle



^^^THIS^^^

I sorta disagree on the Destiny cast though (the new characters), only Shinn stood out to me with full potential to be a great character like Kamille.

Rewatch the episodes again omgggg, Shinn despised the people who made Stella as an Extended(AA), he didn't even know who Neo was exactly until they met at the exchange point. My point was that Shinn didn't even blame Neo a single bit for Stellar's death when he obviously let her back into battle which breaks the promise.(There was a scene when Shinn was trying to stop the Destroy when he didn't know Stellar was inside it and Neo came up to him and said "Stop, Stellar is inside," and Shinn just becomes surprised looking at the cockpit and doesn't even get a LITTLE TINY mad at Neo or bother to ask something along the lines, "WHY THE FCK DIDNT U KEEP UR PROMISE," like he usually does and just has his eyes in shock and fear.
Its just like how everyone is saying it was Kira's fault for Heine's death because he interfered in the battle even though Stellar directly killed Heine, same concept here, Its Neo's fault for Stellar's death because he let her into battle when he wasn't supposed to even though Kira directly killed her.
Shinn blamed Kira for Heine's death when he directly saw that Gaia was the one that killed Heine (So did Athrun , but not as much), thats why I say his thinking is retarded.
Not to mention the fact that Kira had his reasons to kill Stellar because she was killing the civilians and burning down their cities when Stellar's reason to kill Heine was, "HES IN THE FKING WAY."
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Old 2013-06-06, 20:34   Link #7500
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That was Kira's biggest mistake. He should have let Stella blast Shinn away and then take her down.
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