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Old 2013-06-19, 00:24   Link #7741
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
But she was really no good with the Gunner wizard. Not to mention the darn thing was meant as an anti-ship weapon not an anti-ms weapon. So it was ill suited for the situation that the Minerva found it's self in. The Blaze or Slash wizards would have been far better suited for that.

And I find it hard to believe the Minerva with at one time 3 FAITH members couldn't get they're hands on replacement parts or wizard packs. Much less additional pilots when you think about it. Which is even more unfathomable considering the Minerva was Durandals pet project by all accounts.
It’s simple, actually. Bandai wanted a custom-colored Gunner Zaku to be used by a named pilot to boost the popularity of the kit & toys since many SEED buyers don’t like mass-produced mono-eyes. Rey & Heine with their Blaze Zakus, Luna & Dearka with their Gunner Zakus, and (to some extend) Yzak with his Slash Zaku. That’s just how it is. Logic be damned.
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Old 2013-06-19, 00:31   Link #7742
S.Freedom
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Uhm, Rey seemed to do pretty darn well with a Blaze wizard. And Yzak seem able to take out other ms pretty easy with the Slash wizards Hydra beam guns.

And Luna being on ship defense is exactly why the Gunner Wizard makes no sense. It would have been better if she had a Blaze wizard like Rey or a Slash wizard like Yzak. Both would have allowed Luna to better target the fast moving targets she faced. Yet for some reason she was stuck with a beam cannon better suited for anti-ship or anti-fortress assaults.

@Obelisk ze Tormentor Yeah I know, it just one of many things that annoyed me about Destiny and Gundam in general. They allow merchandise sales to dictate story/plot developments in some way or another.
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Old 2013-06-19, 00:40   Link #7743
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
@Obelisk ze Tormentor Yeah I know, it just one of many things that annoyed me about Destiny and Gundam in general. They allow merchandise sales to dictate story/plot developments in some way or another.
Believe me, Gundam franchise is way better in terms of balancing between story & merchandise compared to Yu-Gi-Oh! anime. Yu-Gi-Oh! anime butchered the original manga's story for the sake of more and more and more card battles to boost the merchandise sales .
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Old 2013-06-19, 00:53   Link #7744
Cherudim Arche
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
Uhm, Rey seemed to do pretty darn well with a Blaze wizard. And Yzak seem able to take out other ms pretty easy with the Slash wizards Hydra beam guns.

And Luna being on ship defense is exactly why the Gunner Wizard makes no sense. It would have been better if she had a Blaze wizard like Rey or a Slash wizard like Yzak. Both would have allowed Luna to better target the fast moving targets she faced. Yet for some reason she was stuck with a beam cannon better suited for anti-ship or anti-fortress assaults.
Also, the slash zaku gatling are short to mid-range. So, it is in range to damage the other mobile suits.
Your forgetting they are in space. It isn't as much of an issue out there. Even if she is given a the other pack, enemies could easily trick her into going astray from the Minerva. There is also that had she dealt with those Ginn high maneuver 2 pilots that would have been screwed a lot earlier. So she got off lucky by fighting Stella instead, rather than those pilots that truly do know what they are capable of. Also, Luna never struck as pilot that make their decisions on a the fly. For Yzak, Athrun, Kira, other veterans aces is that they know when they make a decisions, they are aware of the consequences that follow. Luna is sort of safe by just doing cover fire and ship defense. Furthermore, she isn't skilled enough to fight tougher enemies where it really does matter.

Also, don't think of long range support as anti-ship or anti-fortress. For the gunner artillery pack is meant to standard artillery load-out to work with other zaku warriors against enemies. It isn't specialize to the point where it is only dedicated to ultra specialize role that literally makes it the only unit that can do that. They aren't suppose to be seen for they are treated like noise that rattle enemies and take down certain positions. That is why the other zaku warriors and Impulse are there on the battlefield.

Last edited by Cherudim Arche; 2013-06-19 at 01:28.
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Old 2013-06-19, 01:28   Link #7745
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well i'm going to have to disagree with the whole independent women part of the Seed/Destiny of the female cast. Luna was cool in the beginning but half way through she turned into a useless girl that needs saving from Shinn. lets not get me started on Meyrin. Stella was a girl infatuated with Neo (iirc there was no explanation for this) that couldn't do much without Neo telling her what to do. Merrue was the Captain of the AA and she pretty much didn't do much and she was still heartbroken bout Mwu so she isn't what i'd call independent. Then we have Lacus she was i guess independent but she still needed Kira to do anything in the story its not like she could have done it by herself. So the only women I can come up with that are "independent" is Cagalli and Talia Gladys cause they really didn't lean on someone the larger part of the show. well Cagalli cried a lot but she was a trooper about it and kept going forward. I guess i'll be generous and say Lacus was kinda independent.

now with 00 thought they had some of the better and worst female characters in gundam. always liked Sumeragi, Shirin Bakhtiar, and Kati Mannequin i thought they were pretty cool, now Sumeragi wasn't independent though. Age I didn't get that far so i can't say anything on the women.
By independent, it meant they were calling the shots. Sumeragi and Kati wouldn't get anywhere without their pilots and mobile suits, whether it'd be the CB or otherwise. Just as Lacus & Cagali wouldn't get anywhere without their armies. Just because Laucs relied much on Kira to get the job done does not make her any less independent. She was calling the shots, as were Sumeragi and Kati.

However, I was never really convinced of Sumeragi's conviction...

Lacus was clearly the chess master (even Dully called her that). She was in command and orchestrated a number of events that occurred in Seed/Destiny. Whether you were a willing pawn of her schemes or you were somehow fooled into becoming one is another story. Though I don't recall any other woman in a Gundam franchise who held as much power as she did, except Haman Karn. I also cannot think of an instance where Lacus inquired others on what she should do for her next move.

While Merrue still harbored feelings for Mwu, that feeling was not reignited until much later. Although she was heartbroken, her actions suggested very little connection to her feelings towards Mwu. After all, she didn't think he was alive. But what was her response to ZAFT taking a hostile stance towards Orb? Launch the AA. You have to admit, that single ship kept many Gunadms intact and pilots alive. So I wouldn't claim that she didn't do much. True, she didn't kill much, but that wasn't the AA's role anyway.

Of course, not all women in Seed/Destiny were of the independent variant. Luna, Stella, Meyrin, Meer... well, we know their stories.

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Last edited by Tak; 2013-06-19 at 01:40.
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Old 2013-06-19, 02:04   Link #7746
S.Freedom
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Huh?

The Minerva spent 95% of the show on Earth not space. And until she got the Impulse her primary responsibility was to keep enemy mobile suits off the Minerva while Shin/Athrun did the heavy lifting. And even during her fight with Stella the Blaze or Slash wizards would have been better. H*ll launching without a pack would have been better than launching with the Gunner.

And how else am I supposed to think of a piece of equipment best described as "artillery"?

And your theory only works if the Gunner has the support of other units. Which Luna did not have because she was one of two Zaku pilots. While Shin, Athrun and Heine(however briefly) where to busy else where to provide the support Luna needed effectively use it.
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Old 2013-06-19, 02:14   Link #7747
monster
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
And Luna being on ship defense is exactly why the Gunner Wizard makes no sense. It would have been better if she had a Blaze wizard like Rey or a Slash wizard like Yzak. Both would have allowed Luna to better target the fast moving targets she faced. Yet for some reason she was stuck with a beam cannon better suited for anti-ship or anti-fortress assaults.
Lunamaria didn't seem to have much trouble getting her kills with the Gunner Zaku. I'd say her performance was on par with Rey on Earth, especially when confined to the Minerva.
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Old 2013-06-19, 02:25   Link #7748
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Remember Luna still has her rifle and grenades and tomahawk. It's not like the Gunner pack is her only weapon. All the Blaze gives is a one barrage missile shot. The Slash was by far the best pack but for some reason it was rarely deployed. Aside from Yzak only one or two random Zaku's had it towards the end of the show. I don't think Minerva was ever shown to have any of them on board in the various shots of equipment in the hanger.
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Old 2013-06-19, 02:50   Link #7749
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@Monster Perhaps, but I feel she could have done better if she had a different wizard pack. Personally I'd have preferred she use the Slash because off the Hydra's.

Meh, I'm just venting because of how she was chickified in the later half of the series.
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Old 2013-06-19, 11:06   Link #7750
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Remember Luna still has her rifle and grenades and tomahawk. It's not like the Gunner pack is her only weapon. All the Blaze gives is a one barrage missile shot. The Slash was by far the best pack but for some reason it was rarely deployed. Aside from Yzak only one or two random Zaku's had it towards the end of the show. I don't think Minerva was ever shown to have any of them on board in the various shots of equipment in the hanger.
The Blaze also has a bunch of extra thrusters for added speed/maneuverability. The Slash pack has a wicked strong beam axe and a pair of beam gatling guns, which really shouldn't have as much range or power that even a regular beam rifle has, so it's only good for melee combat.

It made sense to me why Luna used the Gunner pack so much when they got to earth, since at that point she and Rey became glorified turrets on the Minerva and the pack that specializes in range makes the most sense to use.

My only guess as to why the Slash wasn't used much is that most Zaft soldiers don't prefer close combat.
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Old 2013-06-19, 18:28   Link #7751
Cherudim Arche
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Remember Luna still has her rifle and grenades and tomahawk. It's not like the Gunner pack is her only weapon. All the Blaze gives is a one barrage missile shot. The Slash was by far the best pack but for some reason it was rarely deployed. Aside from Yzak only one or two random Zaku's had it towards the end of the show. I don't think Minerva was ever shown to have any of them on board in the various shots of equipment in the hanger.
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Originally Posted by Soaring Griffin View Post
The Blaze also has a bunch of extra thrusters for added speed/maneuverability. The Slash pack has a wicked strong beam axe and a pair of beam gatling guns, which really shouldn't have as much range or power that even a regular beam rifle has, so it's only good for melee combat.

It made sense to me why Luna used the Gunner pack so much when they got to earth, since at that point she and Rey became glorified turrets on the Minerva and the pack that specializes in range makes the most sense to use.

My only guess as to why the Slash wasn't used much is that most Zaft soldiers don't prefer close combat.
Wouldn't all three wizard packs leave her a sitting duck on earth. For without sustain flight capabilities, Luna has to fire like crazy just to remotely have the Minerva even defended in a small area. Not to mention, she has to monitor the energy level so she doesn't leave herself open with a MS that is completely drained.
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Old 2013-06-19, 18:51   Link #7752
S.Freedom
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You do realize that the Gunner at least has it's own power pack. Even than, when was the last time we saw a grunt unit run out of power? Grunt unit's like the ZAKU are usually destroyed before energy depletion becomes a problem. And those who aren't destroyed, are able to return to their home base without difficulty.

As for Luna being a sitting duck on earth. Sure if she was dump enough to leave the Minerva. But since she stayed with the Minerva while she was piloting her ZAKU the answer is no.
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Old 2013-06-19, 19:45   Link #7753
Cherudim Arche
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You do realize that the Gunner at least has it's own power pack. Even than, when was the last time we saw a grunt unit run out of power? Grunt unit's like the ZAKU are usually destroyed before energy depletion becomes a problem. And those who aren't destroyed, are able to return to their home base without difficulty.

As for Luna being a sitting duck on earth. Sure if she was dump enough to leave the Minerva. But since she stayed with the Minerva while she was piloting her ZAKU the answer is no.
Luna got lucky that EA didn't shuffle larger amount of combat forces even more prior to the battle of Crete. Otherwise, she would have been goner by the Lohengrin gate. For they literally outnumber her to the point, that some beam or projectile is going to hit. She practically an open target for dagger ls, windams and mursames on the deck of the Minerva. The extra power-pack is useless when the attacking for considerable larger forces or got better preemptive position. She can't just spam her shots all the time for that is pretty much the EA using Minerva defenses to their advantage. It doesn't have to even be aiming at certain target either. EA could have easily drained the zaku warrior by diverting her attention at the rear where the engine is, the wings, even the bridge. In which, she literally plays into their hands by destroying a part of Minerva. Also, Luna isn't fast enough to react to when it does happen.
The problem is see is that Luna would have been as much of target as Shinn. She is only thing holding forces back. Rey helps to provide some defense, but its never enough to deal with reinforcement that beat them in terms of speed.

Last edited by Cherudim Arche; 2013-06-20 at 01:34.
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Old 2013-06-20, 00:45   Link #7754
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Remember Luna still has her rifle and grenades and tomahawk. It's not like the Gunner pack is her only weapon. All the Blaze gives is a one barrage missile shot. The Slash was by far the best pack but for some reason it was rarely deployed. Aside from Yzak only one or two random Zaku's had it towards the end of the show. I don't think Minerva was ever shown to have any of them on board in the various shots of equipment in the hanger.
Perhaps it was special commander use/personal pack? Because I never recall seeing another ZAKU using it

Also the Blaze does come with extra thrusters, so its not just missiles it provides (unless you are talking about earth use where its dead weight and inferior to the Gunner which can still function as intended)
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Old 2013-06-20, 01:23   Link #7755
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Though most of them retained their independence. Actually, SEED/DESTINY provided the audience with some of the most fiercely independent females in a Gundam franchise, unlike some of its predecessors and definitely its successors.

00 wasn't that great. The only female I ended up liking was token white-haired-pretty-girl, and AGE didn't even bother with subtlety, it just dropped it hard.

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When was any female in Destiny a paragon of independence or strength? Half of the named females were drooling over Athrun, Lacus was with Kira, and leading a faction doesn't automatically mean strength. Hell Talia commits suicide with Gil because she was being boned by him despite having a son. And the only new female character with actual focus gets killed off before the episode occurs. It's not exactly groundbreaking Age is arguably worse with females from I hear they get treated like baby makers, so that's moot. And I need to rewatch 00 I can't remember in too much in depth, Wang was ambitious, Nina was bloodthirsty, Sumeragi was likeable, Anew was a love interest, Felt was squandered love interest. Louse was also alright I guess albeit somewhat of a cliche within Gundam having crazy girlfriends. Mariana was meh, Kati was alpha.

Now unto predecessors, Syla was an active pilot and even used the Gundam. Emma was a Gundam pilot and a central character until the last episode. ZZ Had Roux and Elle. F91 had Cessily. Gundam X had Tiffa Paula and Enil. Naw they got a more consistent record stacked against one series IMO
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Old 2013-06-20, 03:12   Link #7756
monster
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When was any female in Destiny a paragon of independence or strength? Half of the named females were drooling over Athrun, Hell Talia commits suicide with Gil because she was being boned by him despite having a son.
I wouldn't necessarily label many as being "paragon" of independence or strength.

That said, being independent/strong doesn't necessarily mean you have to lead a lonely life.

The girls who were "drooling" over Athrun knew what they wanted and chose their own paths in life, Meer and Meyrin in particular. And I don't really sense a can't-live-without-him motivation in Talia choosing to die with Durandal, more like it's-somehow-partly-my-fault-he-ended-up-like-this.
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Lacus was with Kira, and leading a faction doesn't automatically mean strength.
Neither does piloting a Gundam.
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Old 2013-06-20, 04:03   Link #7757
Skye629
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Uh u wot m8

When was any female in Destiny a paragon of independence or strength? Half of the named females were drooling over Athrun, Lacus was with Kira, and leading a faction doesn't automatically mean strength. Hell Talia commits suicide with Gil because she was being boned by him despite having a son. And the only new female character with actual focus gets killed off before the episode occurs. It's not exactly groundbreaking Age is arguably worse with females from I hear they get treated like baby makers, so that's moot. And I need to rewatch 00 I can't remember in too much in depth, Wang was ambitious, Nina was bloodthirsty, Sumeragi was likeable, Anew was a love interest, Felt was squandered love interest. Louse was also alright I guess albeit somewhat of a cliche within Gundam having crazy girlfriends. Mariana was meh, Kati was alpha.

Now unto predecessors, Syla was an active pilot and even used the Gundam. Emma was a Gundam pilot and a central character until the last episode. ZZ Had Roux and Elle. F91 had Cessily. Gundam X had Tiffa Paula and Enil. Naw they got a more consistent record stacked against one series IMO
You seem to be completely forgetting about Cagalli in SEED (not DESTINY)
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Old 2013-06-20, 06:41   Link #7758
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Lacus was pretty much the boss of the whole Terminal organization (after a few eps of hesitation just hanging out on AA). That's pretty independent I'd say. Kira was essentially working for her, not the other way around. Most of the Clyne Faction in fact was only there because they wanted to work for Lacus. Eternal crew, Dom guys, all those Zaft defectors, maybe Andy (he's also pretty fond of Kira and Murrue as well).

Cagalli had major willpower issues in Destiny but that wasn't caused by romance problems, but because of her essentially losing her nation and feeling like she failed to live up to their ideals. She slowly starts getting her old self back, first when Amagi and the Orb defectors show up, showing her that at least some of the Orb fleet still believes in Uzumi's ideals, and then later on when the Seiran's screw up and the rest of the country looks to her to save it.

Meyrin ditches her whole country and sister simply because she believes arresting Athrun is an unjust act.

Being a leader DOES mean strength. It has nothing to do with simply being a pilot or having a cool badass attitude. The phyiscally strongest girl in the show, Lunamaria was actually probably the weakest when it comes down to it as her entire character revovled around crushing on Athrun, and later crushing on Shinn and she easily folded and submitted to Zaft in the end despite obviously having doubts and reservations about what they were doing, mostly because Shinn was still there.

Lacus and Cagalli being the major faction leaders are probably the best example. Unlike other Gundam the male pilots as the tools to be used here.
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Old 2013-06-20, 06:48   Link #7759
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Gundam X had Tiffa Paula and Enil.
WAT? Tiffa Adill is an example of an independent woman? She’s a “damsel-in-distress” during many occasions in Gundam X. Many times, she’s just awaiting to be rescued by Garrod and quite helpless without him (and others) even though she indeed has her own goal.
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Old 2013-06-20, 10:28   Link #7760
The American Average
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Well for me, seeing Lacus, Cagalli, and pretty much most of the female cast as independent characters was kinda outlandish. Most of them aren't older than 20 years old and yet they are leading all these people and nations, I just don't get how somebody would just follow such a young person. I know we, in the past, have had 8 year old emperors but its not like they lead the nation. Just seemed weird to me.
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