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Old 2013-07-15, 19:48   Link #8221
Skye629
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
To be fair Athrun and Cagalli never explained their own loses to Shinn either. Had they had a sit down or the such and actually talked than I'm sure Shinn's attitude towards them would have changed. Hell, Shinn actually liked and respected Athrun for awhile after Athrun took control but due to Rey/Durandal's manipulations and Athrun flipping out at the worst of times he ended up pushing Shinn away.
Athrun, yes

But Cagalli? No, Shinn probably would have never agreed to sit down and talk to her personally unless a superior (such as Durandal) ordered it (or after Athrun somehow managed to soften him up during their "talk" if it took place) (given how he reacted to her every time she talked in his presence aboard the Minerva)
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Old 2013-07-15, 19:48   Link #8222
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Respect goes a LONG way beyond just obeying orders from your superior. Furthermore there are times when you shouldn't obey. Such as the Nazi Generals that thought they could escape judgement by saying that they were just following orders when they committed horrid acts against humanity. The courts thought otherwise.

You cannot physically abuse those under your command in any military of an established and respected Government worth its salt. Athrun by no means had any right to be so rough with Shinn nor did he have any right to make scenes with Shinn in front of everyone. Proper protocol would have been to take Shinn to the side or somewhere private to verbally chew him out and fill in Shinn on his punishment.

Athrun did punch Shinn, multiple times in fact. It didn't help at all. Athrun's flipping out at times also negatively affected Shinn as well who ended up doing the same as Athrun did in very painful situations.
Athrun slapped him twice in the latest episode, and punched him ONCE after the Freedom battle. I hardly call that being abusive. Even if so, they're in the military, not exactly a gentle organization.
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Old 2013-07-15, 20:11   Link #8223
The American Average
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Originally Posted by Kurohane View Post
Athrun slapped him twice in the latest episode, and punched him ONCE after the Freedom battle. I hardly call that being abusive. Even if so, they're in the military, not exactly a gentle organization.
well if we think CE, Shinn is the only MC to get hit by a superior, every time Kira broken protocol he got a slap on the hand at most. With Athrun I don't think he was ever corrected and he defy orders too, just like Shinn, he was shot by his father but thats for a different reason altogether. Seed characters never really slapped or punched so when you think about it Athrun was a violent mentor
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Old 2013-07-15, 20:19   Link #8224
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Originally Posted by The American Average View Post
well if we think CE, Shinn is the only MC to get hit by a superior, every time Kira broken protocol he got a slap on the hand at most. With Athrun I don't think he was ever corrected and he defy orders too, just like Shinn, he was shot by his father but thats for a different reason altogether. Seed characters never really slapped or punched so when you think about it Athrun was a violent mentor
Athrun got shot... By the Commander in Chief... And father... For asking questions...
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Old 2013-07-15, 20:31   Link #8225
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The only time Kira ever stepped out of line was when he returned Lacus. Otherwise he was a polite and respectful solider (except one time fresh out of the bed with Flay when he was rather agitated) and never disobeyed orders.

Likewise Athrun only disobeyed when his father gave him overly harsh crazy orders (destroy every place Freedom was at). He was otherwise again, polite and respectful.

Shinn was the one with a constant attitude problem, who disobeyed orders more than once, insulted foreign leaders, and the like.
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Old 2013-07-15, 23:31   Link #8226
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Respect has nothing to do with it, Athrun is his Superior- Shinn listens or he gets punished. It's just that cut-and-dry; Athrun should have just hauled off and punched him in the chin. Much bigger impression on Shinn, I'd think.
Only way I see that working is if Athrun had reinforced it by throwing him in the brig for a few days. As the two times Athrun hit him, Shin seemed to take it more as validation of his actions than as punishment.
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Old 2013-07-15, 23:43   Link #8227
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Originally Posted by The American Average View Post
well if we think CE, Shinn is the only MC to get hit by a superior, every time Kira broken protocol he got a slap on the hand at most. With Athrun I don't think he was ever corrected and he defy orders too, just like Shinn, he was shot by his father but thats for a different reason altogether. Seed characters never really slapped or punched so when you think about it Athrun was a violent mentor

Athrun got shot.. yeah.. that happened..

And as for Kira.. It actually would have been strange if he did obey his superiors without asking questions.. Why? because he is not a real soldier.
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Old 2013-07-15, 23:43   Link #8228
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Wasn't Kira supposed to be court martialed, but they dropped it because he was civilian he should have at least got more punishment Mwu even Jokes and says he should clean toilets. Shinn did a similar thing with Stella and he was supposed to get executed (only difference is he was a soldier) , but Durandal bailed him out, but many people were bugged about the free "out of jail card"

Athrun disobeyed direct orders to go see if Kira was in the Strike, but Rau waves it off because it was a good test flight. if shinn did something similar he'd have got a gentlemans slap from athrun. Also didn't Athrun defect from ZAFT before the whole "dad shooting him" thing? Didn't Patrick even know too, i don't remember if he did.

Shinn does have an attitude problem at least he wasn't wishy washy like athrun, Shinn pretty much did what he did regularly, while Athrun would congratulate him or yell at him. At least Rey was constant on trying to manipulate Shinn

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Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
And as for Kira.. It actually would have been strange if he did obey his superiors without asking questions.. Why? because he is not a real soldier.
well wasn't kira made a soldier later, he was one by Waltfield arc right? and whats a real soldier in the gundam series? usually the beginning is teens running around in a robot. expect like wing, 00, and a think age ya know knowing why they're there
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Old 2013-07-16, 00:14   Link #8229
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Originally Posted by The American Average View Post
well wasn't kira made a soldier later, he was one by Waltfield arc right? and whats a real soldier in the gundam series? usually the beginning is teens running around in a robot. expect like wing, 00, and a think age ya know knowing why they're there
It was just for the show and probably to cover up the fact that he was a coordinator.. How can he be soldier for the EA? He is not a citizen of any of the EA member states.


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Originally Posted by The American Average View Post
Wasn't Kira supposed to be court martialed, but they dropped it because he was civilian he should have at least got more punishment Mwu even Jokes and says he should clean toilets. Shinn did a similar thing with Stella and he was supposed to get executed (only difference is he was a soldier) , but Durandal bailed him out, but many people were bugged about the free "out of jail card"
What's so strange about that?
Shinn is a soldier. and as you pointed out Kira is a civilian.. Civilians can not be punished without a trial. And you are ignoring the fact that Kira had a lot more leverage than Shinn at that point, as he was the only pilot capable of even moving the Strike. Kira could have gotten away with a lot more than what did in the 1st half of SEED.


Quote:
Athrun disobeyed direct orders to go see if Kira was in the Strike, but Rau waves it off because it was a good test flight. if shinn did something similar he'd have got a gentlemans slap from athrun.
Good point. Athrun should have been punished. But it's not the exact same scenario either, ZAFT lost a sub because of Shinn's actions.. actual people died. Athrun's action didn't really have any consequences IIRC..

Quote:
Also didn't Athrun defect from ZAFT before the whole "dad shooting him" thing? Didn't Patrick even know too, i don't remember if he did.
Technically not yet.. And at that point he was still somewhat hopeful that he could reason with his father.

Quote:
Shinn does have an attitude problem at least he wasn't wishy washy like athrun, Shinn pretty much did what he did regularly, while Athrun would congratulate him or yell at him. At least Rey was constant on trying to manipulate Shinn
His overall attitude was one of his least problems. Shinn had serious psychiatric disorder.. but that's also what made him strong.
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Old 2013-07-16, 00:24   Link #8230
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Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
But it's not the exact same scenario either, ZAFT lost a sub because of Shinn's actions.. actual people died. Athrun's action didn't really have any consequences IIRC..
But how was it Shinns fault that ZAFT ship blew up? Athrun was out there too, afterall Luna and Rey were the ones protecting it. Shinn from the beginning of the fight he was attacked from all sides by grunt Windams and Neo, which forced him really far out. Then he went to fight Gaia and found the base. Isn't that why Luna and Rey were launched in the first place because shinn was so far out and the Abyss was right there? IIRC Athrun played Chicken with Sting the whole fight until Neo started to go after him.
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Old 2013-07-16, 01:14   Link #8231
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Originally Posted by The American Average View Post
But how was it Shinns fault that ZAFT ship blew up? Athrun was out there too, afterall Luna and Rey were the ones protecting it. Shinn from the beginning of the fight he was attacked from all sides by grunt Windams and Neo, which forced him really far out. Then he went to fight Gaia and found the base. Isn't that why Luna and Rey were launched in the first place because shinn was so far out and the Abyss was right there? IIRC Athrun played Chicken with Sting the whole fight until Neo started to go after him.
Shinn main objective and only objective was to protect the Minerva and it's allies. He is obviously more offensive minded than the rest, as he wanders off from the minerva most of the time.. And obviously he can't protect everyone all the time and that's fine. But ignoring your mission plan and going off that far because he couldn't get Neo (his ego got hurt). At that point Athrun also gave him multiple warnings, Shinn ignored all of them. He even told Athrun to shut up at one point.

And to top it off, he attacked an enemy base on his own and killed off defenseless EA soldiers who might have been useful to ZAFT. (It was a noble thing to do and obviously had a personal reason as well, but that doesn't change anything)

It was not just one offense, those were multiple offenses in one episode. And you wonder why he got slapped?
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Old 2013-07-16, 01:17   Link #8232
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i don't wonder why he got slapped, he deserved it in colors but i don't think its his entire fault that the ZAFT sub blew up, is all.
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Old 2013-07-16, 01:34   Link #8233
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Originally Posted by The American Average View Post
i don't wonder why he got slapped, he deserved it in colors but i don't think its his fault the ZAFT sub blew up, is all.
If he didn't leave the battlefield for selfish reasons, then he could have at the very least tried to do something. Impulse for example was the only Gundam there capable of putting up somewhat of a fight underwater against Abyss..
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Old 2013-07-16, 01:44   Link #8234
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If he didn't leave the battlefield for selfish reasons, then he could have at the very least tried to do something. Impulse for example was the only Gundam there capable of putting up somewhat of a fight underwater against Abyss..
i don't really think it was selfishness that made him go that far out, he was kinda cornered and out gunned. How would he even been able to return to the ship in that kind of fight, its not like the Gaia, Chaos, or Neo would have let him leave.

I don't think the Impulse is any better underwater then the Zaku's. We never really saw it fight underwater, its not like it had a weapon pack that helped with underwater battle on board the minerva. that ZAFT sub had its own suits, Rey and Luna to help it i don't think the Impulse would have made much of a difference if it was there it still would have been shot down.
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Old 2013-07-16, 02:03   Link #8235
kaito-kid
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Originally Posted by The American Average View Post
i don't really think it was selfishness that made him go that far out, he was kinda cornered and out gunned. How would he even been able to return to the ship in that kind of fight, its not like the Gaia, Chaos, or Neo would have let him leave.
He was not cornered. The reason why left was because he couldn't shoot down Neo and he kept chasing him, not because he was cornered. You should rewatch that episode.

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I don't think the Impulse is any better underwater then the Zaku's. We never really saw it fight underwater, its not like it had a weapon pack that helped with underwater battle on board the minerva. that ZAFT sub had its own suits, Rey and Luna to help it i don't think the Impulse would have made much of a difference if it was there it still would have been shot down.
Impulse is a Gundam.. Of course if would have made a difference. (and the Abyss, while still superior underwater, would have been outnumbered) Impulse probably has a special calibration profile for underwater combat anyway, It's supposed to be capable of fighting in all the different environments. Even the Strike could fight underwater against superior MS's, and don't see why the Impulse can't.
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Old 2013-07-16, 02:08   Link #8236
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oh yeah forgot CE, Gundam is better than any other suit for no real reason.
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Old 2013-07-16, 02:17   Link #8237
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oh yeah forgot CE, Gundam is better than any other suit for no real reason.
You know you lost a argument when this is all you can resort to.

Edit: In regards to Shinn, his problem is that he doesn't grow the f*** up until/at the end of Final Plus.

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Old 2013-07-16, 02:31   Link #8238
The American Average
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it really wasn't an argument and i did forget that CE gundams are just better than the other suits for no real reason. Personally don't think Shinn was selfish during the fight its just one thing lead to another, but he defied orders and definitely deserved to be corrected.
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Old 2013-07-16, 02:31   Link #8239
kaito-kid
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Originally Posted by The American Average View Post
oh yeah forgot CE, Gundam is better than any other suit for no real reason.

For no reason?

I didn't want to do this, but let me break this down to you.
Obviously the main propulsion systems of the Impulse will be less effective underwater so it's mobility will be limited, but it still has better ion pumps, so it will have good movement. (PSA also gives him protection agains Abyss's underwater weapons) Now for the Impusle's weapons, non of the beam based weapons will work, but the Armor knifes, Excalibur, Firely Guided Missile and the Rail Cannons would be useful.. Blast Impusle would probably be the best choice.

So that's why it better than the two zaku's.. And that's why the Impluse would have been useful, or at least not as useless as the others against the Abyss.
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Old 2013-07-16, 02:34   Link #8240
I Fail at Life
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it really wasn't an argument and i did forget that CE gundams are just better than the other suits for no real reason. Personally don't think Shinn was selfish during the fight its just one thing lead to another, but he defied orders and definitely deserved to be corrected.
A argument is a debate... that's what you were doing...
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