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Old 2013-07-17, 14:41   Link #8281
Kurohane
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Any half-baked hack of a writer can claim that Shinn was "still the protagonist", but the depiction of the show says otherwise. He was no longer the protagonist in the spirit of the term. For all intents and purposes, after Kira came back into the picture and the show focused on him, Shinn's actions were that of an antagonist, not a protagonist. Kira had become the protagonist.
As much as focus goes, it varies. Shinn, Athrun and team still got majority screen time after the first intervention from Freedom. It was only after Athrun's defect the Kira got more focus. Even then, I still can say Shin got a lot of focus, with his thoughts and doubts. The Minerva crew still took down Heaven's base and Requiem the bot took pretty much whole episodes to do. I can't agree after Kira returned he got most of the focus.
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Old 2013-07-17, 14:55   Link #8282
Deadpool2000
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
In addition to him essentially becoming the good guy while Shinn started supporting the Destruction of Orb and the Destiny Plan being enforced with space lasers.
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Any half-baked hack of a writer can claim that Shinn was "still the protagonist", but the depiction of the show says otherwise. He was no longer the protagonist in the spirit of the term. For all intents and purposes, after Kira came back into the picture and the show focused on him, Shinn's actions were that of an antagonist, not a protagonist. Kira had become the protagonist.
You both seem to be under the impression that protagonist means good guy and antagonist means bad guy, which isn't how it works.

Shinn IS the protagonist. He's the guy we follow the entire show. His is the character development that the whole show is about. He is the star in which all the characters of the show revolve around, how they relate to Shinn, compare to Shinn, contrast Shinn, help or hinder Shinn is all the other characters of the show are about.

This is a modern day tragedy. A good ol' "Road to hell is paved with good intentions" kinda story, with a side of compare and contrast main characters for good measure (just take a quick mental tally how similar to both Athrun and Kira's experiences in Seed Shinn's experiences in Destiny are). Yes, Shinn is in the wrong. He is STILL a protagonist.

Kira does nothing the whole show. He kidnaps Cagalli, escorts her into futility twice, prevents Orb from burning then shows up at the end to smack ZAFT down. He has little to no agency, no character arc, no major plot involving just him.

Even in the final few episodes, Shinn is attacking Requiem and building a relationship with Luna, and freaking out of the Athrun/Meyrin thing and what he has become, and desperately trying to find a silver lining in all this, and talking things out with Rey. Big, emotional, personal stuff.

Kira? He goes shopping and reads Meer's diary. How is that a shift in focus? Can you think of an antagonist with LESS agency on the show than Kira?
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Old 2013-07-17, 15:11   Link #8283
Aquaman OS
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The problem is Shinn's development stops in 37 once he decides to become Durandal's enforcer. After that all he does is smash stuff in the name of Durandal, and only has a brief crisis of concience in the finale when the Destiny Plan comes up. Otherwise we barely see him when he's not fighting, and all he's doing then is griping over how much he hates Kira/Athrun/Orb etc.

I mean how much of Shinn do we see in episodes 46-49? Barely any. It's all on the AA crew. They don't do anything really, as the show is just kind of desperately stalling for time so they only had to do one more major battle, but still Shinn appears maybe what a minute or two per ep?

What about 39-43? How much of Shinn do we see vs Athrun when it's not in combat? Barely any and again just griping over Orb.
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Old 2013-07-17, 15:24   Link #8284
Deadpool2000
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Him killing Athrun is certainly the climax of his development since from that point on he has to follow Rey and Durandal, but it doesn't stop.

His conversation with Luna, his nightmare, his constant conversations with Rey. All him struggling with the decision he made, with the position he is in and finding no way out.

Remember that after the battle starts we still get a long, extended conversation where Durandal and Rey take their time to reinforce Shinn's position. The big battle keeps getting cut away for Shinn's chat.
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Old 2013-07-17, 15:41   Link #8285
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
You both seem to be under the impression that protagonist means good guy and antagonist means bad guy, which isn't how it works.

Shinn IS the protagonist. He's the guy we follow the entire show. His is the character development that the whole show is about. He is the star in which all the characters of the show revolve around, how they relate to Shinn, compare to Shinn, contrast Shinn, help or hinder Shinn is all the other characters of the show are about.
You know, being a protagonist usually means the story revolve around you or you’ll play significant role till the end of the story. In Shinn’s case, there are some occasions where’s he’s not even important to the story especially after Kira & Lacus showing up and became the center of the story again. Let’s take one example, in the final episode (or Final Plus) after he got defeated by Athrun, the anime abandoned him completely and the story still go on with the confrontation between Kira & Athrun vs. Durandal, Talia, & Rey. I’d say if Shinn is indeed the protagonist, the anime will somehow incorporate him in that penultimate event of the story, not sidelined him like a supporting character .
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Old 2013-07-17, 15:49   Link #8286
Aquaman OS
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Yeah we don't really follow Shinn anymore after Athrun leaves Zaft. We cut to back to him from time to time for a brief nightmare or moping scene, but the story doesn't follow him anymore, it follows the actions of the Orb team.

And as mentioned, Shinn is taken out halfway through the final ep and aside from cutting back to him for one final bit of story with him talking to Stella, we don't see him again, the final confrontation is between Kira and Durandal, with Rey and Athrun and Talia playing smaller roles. Shinn misses out on it entirely.
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Old 2013-07-17, 15:57   Link #8287
Deadpool2000
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So your definition of a protagonist is "was present in the last conversation of the story"?

Who the hell is the protagonist for Hamlet?
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Old 2013-07-17, 16:02   Link #8288
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So your definition of a protagonist is "was present in the last conversation of the story"?

Who the hell is the protagonist for Hamlet?
Not "the last conversation of the story", but "the penultimate event of the story". Please differentiate between the two. In Destiny's case, the final confrontation with Durandal is even counts as the climax of the story. You don't leave out protagonist in the climax of the story he/she's in .
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Old 2013-07-17, 16:06   Link #8289
Deadpool2000
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The argument remains the same.

The entirety of the plot serves to show us Shinn's fall. Even his final battle ends the moment we are show just how far he has fallen.

Everything after that is just tying up loose ends. Durandal has to be dealt with, and we need a philosophical conversation over whether the Destiny Plan is right or not. But the main agency of the show is done the second Shinn tries to kill Luna.

If being absent after his defeat takes his "protagonism" then who is the main character in Hamlet?
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Old 2013-07-17, 16:08   Link #8290
Rising Dragon
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We're talking about the same show that completely forgot to add in his character resolution the first time through. They had to make an extended episode just to show that.

I repeat, they forgot to complete the character resolution TO WHOM YOU CALL THE PROTAGONIST.
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Old 2013-07-17, 16:17   Link #8291
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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
If being absent after his defeat takes his "protagonism" then who is the main character in Hamlet?
Hamlet was present in the climax of his story where he killed Claudius. Shinn doesn’t have a say or any appearance nor importance at all in the event of Durandal, the main antagonist of the show, got killed .
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Old 2013-07-17, 16:18   Link #8292
Deadpool2000
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We're talking about the same show that completely forgot to add in his character resolution the first time through. They had to make an extended episode just to show that.

I repeat, they forgot to complete the character resolution TO WHOM YOU CALL THE PROTAGONIST.
You mean the little handshake? That's no character resolution. That's like saying that stupid chat Kira and Athrun had at the end of the Seed Special Edition is their character resolution. The handshake adds nothing but clarity to what already happened.

Luna's line of "Orb is fine" and Shinn's obvious relief over that fact is the ACTUAL resolution. Final Plus just spelled it out in big, giant neon letters.

For the record, Shinn gets shot down at the 11 minute mark, still has a conversation with Stella, a conversation with Luna, and doesn't actually leave "disappear" until the 16:20 mark, just to come back at 21:45 for the very last shot of the show.

He went missing for a whopping SIX MINUTES... Is this how we define protagonists now?
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Old 2013-07-17, 16:24   Link #8293
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He went missing for a whopping SIX MINUTES... Is this how we define protagonists now?
The said “whopping SIX MINUTES” is the climax of the story where the conflict between known main characters is resolved. A genuine protagonist must be present there (or at the very least represented). Shinn didn’t.
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Old 2013-07-17, 16:30   Link #8294
Deadpool2000
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The said “whopping SIX MINUTES” is the climax of the story where the conflict between known main characters is resolved. A genuine protagonist must be present there (or at the very least represented). Shinn didn’t.
So despite the fact that we spent FIFTY episodes focused on Shinn's turmoil and attempts at doing "what is right?" you find that the final conflic is whether or not DURANDAL is right?
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Old 2013-07-17, 16:34   Link #8295
Aquaman OS
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The final conflict was between Kira/Lacus and Durandal. Shinn was just a pawn to Durandal. He had no stake in the final confrontation. He didn't even have a meaningful loss like Rey. Athrun just beat him down, and he had to deal with the fact that his side that he'd backed so hard lost. The final shot is him totally defeated, crying, and having lost everything.

Shinn didn't shape the story at any point. He was just a warrior of Durandal, who did. Heck Durandal gets more development about his motives than Shinn does.
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Old 2013-07-17, 16:39   Link #8296
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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
So despite the fact that we spent FIFTY episodes focused on Shinn's turmoil and attempts at doing "what is right?" you find that the final conflic is whether or not DURANDAL is right?
Have you not understand my posts? Durandal is the trigger of the entire story in Destiny since he’s the man behind almost all major events in it. In other words, he is the main antagonist of the whole story. The conflicts is present throughout the story, not just in the final episode. Still, in any story, the final confrontation or climax must be between the protagonist and antagonist (or at least a representation of the protagonist/antagonist), and guess who we got for those roles during the last episode of Destiny? Kira and Durandal. LOL

PS: if you still don't get it what I said above, I won't bother anymore.
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Old 2013-07-17, 16:40   Link #8297
Deadpool2000
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Shinn didn't shape the story at any point. He was just a warrior of Durandal, who did. Heck Durandal gets more development about his motives than Shinn does.
Shinn's fall IS the story. That's why Athrun is there, to give a counter point to Rey and to give the audience a nice, clear cut way of Shinn picking one of the other.

Durandal being right or wrong reflects on Shinn. Shinn commits atrocities for the sake of Durandal. If Durandal is right, that these are merely the cost of a greater good.

By proving Durandal wrong, the show gives us a final, clear message that despite meaning extremely well, Shinn certainly ended up on the wrong side of the fight.

Shinn isn't crying because he lost...
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Old 2013-07-17, 16:45   Link #8298
Deadpool2000
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Still, in any story, the final confrontation or climax must be between the protagonist and antagonist (or at least a representation of the protagonist/antagonist), and guess who we got for those roles during the last episode of Destiny? Kira and Durandal. LOL
Funny how you correct yourself without my having to get involved.

The Destiny Plan isn't revealed until the last what, 10 episodes of the show?

Shinn wrestling with doing "good" and trying to figure out what that means is the hook of his character since... His first chat with Cagalli?

Hell, Cagalli's ratifying of the alliance, Neo's stupid ass real ID and even Athrun joining ZAFT are all just mirrors of Shinn's central conflict: How good, well meaning, moral people can end up doing stupid, wrong and evil things.

Every time Athrun chastises Shinn for doing something wrong and Rey praises him, we are watching that very conflict unfold.
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Old 2013-07-17, 16:56   Link #8299
Aquaman OS
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Durandal's point being wrong had nothing to do with Shinn. Shinn could have been replaced with a totally different characters and Durandal wouldn't have changed. Most of the bad stuff Durandal does doesn't even involve Shinn nor does Shinn know about it, like the hitsquad, Meer, deciving the world, using the war to force Zaft aid on world nations giving him control over them later etc.

Shinn has zero issues with anything they do until the show is almost over. Until then he believes that he is 100 percent in the right. Only Athrun and Meyrin makes him hesitate for a minute and that's quickly tossed aside a few eps later when he finds out they survived and instead just fuels his belief that he was right because they are helping Orb and Freedom who Shinn thinks are bad people.

It's only when the Destiny Plan comes up that Shinn finally starts hestiating and Rey quickly gets him on the path again to the point where in his final duel with Athrun he flat out tells him he believes Orb deserves to be wiped out.

There's little struggle with Shinn and it certainly doesn't form the main point of the story which is Durandal's scheming to take over for his Destiny Plan. THAT was the main point of the story. And I guess a little about how if you want peace and your desires to come through you need to fight for it which is why Kira and Lacus leave their peaceful life behind to becoming important players on the world stage again. Which is Kira's conflict mind you and not Shinn's.
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Old 2013-07-17, 17:01   Link #8300
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Funny how you correct yourself without my having to get involved.

The Destiny Plan isn't revealed until the last what, 10 episodes of the show?

Shinn wrestling with doing "good" and trying to figure out what that means is the hook of his character since... His first chat with Cagalli?

Hell, Cagalli's ratifying of the alliance, Neo's stupid ass real ID and even Athrun joining ZAFT are all just mirrors of Shinn's central conflict: How good, well meaning, moral people can end up doing stupid, wrong and evil things.

Every time Athrun chastises Shinn for doing something wrong and Rey praises him, we are watching that very conflict unfold.
Nobody in the final confrontation represents Shinn or his will. Durandall & Rey have their own agenda, Kira & Athrun is against Durandall’s Destiny Plan which Shinn agree with, and Talia only wants to protect her boyfriend. So, it goes without saying that Shinn has no representation in that final confrontation.

Also, it seems that your assessment of my comments continue to be off and missing the point (like that ill-comparison with Hamlet of yours). How much further do I have to explain every little things to you?
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