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Old 2013-07-18, 16:42   Link #8341
Aquaman OS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Washu-Chan View Post
Speaking of Star Wars, I'm guessing that these are supposed to be the analogues:
  • Kira = Luke
  • Athrun = Obi-Wan
  • Cagalli = Leia
  • Shinn = Anakin
  • Durandal = Palpatine
  • Mayu = Shmi (?)
  • Stella = Padme (?)

No. Not a total Star Wars analogue. Just that the director was a fan of episodes 1-3 and wanted to homage the whole "good guy going down a dark path" route with Shinn.

Of course the Seed characters returning have nothing to do with that. They were from a show that was not based on 1-3. As it was Vader-Luke and Shinn-Kira have a totally different relationship. Just because he homaged one story point doesn't mean that Seed=Star Wars.
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Old 2013-07-18, 17:08   Link #8342
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
The details of your discussion aside, I don't see how the point of comparison being made between the two works has anything to do with their relative values.

I don't believe anyone is saying that the story/production in Destiny is as good as in Hamlet, or vice versa.
My comment after the “ill-comparison” sentence is just a side-note I made. Not necessarily responding to Deadpool2000’s previous comparison. If I have to say so myself, Shinn is one of the protagonist during the first half (or so) of Destiny beside Athrun, but gradually and surely lost his position as a protagonist which peaked when the anime itself abandon his character completely in the climax. Now if Shinn is supposed to be the protagonist, they won’t left him out of the climax of the entire story just like that. Shinn is different from Hamlet that I’m wondering why the comparison is even made .
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Old 2013-07-18, 17:45   Link #8343
monster
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Shinn is different from Hamlet that I’m wondering why the comparison is even made .
I don't remember much of Hamlet, so I don't how correct this is, but it seems the comparison being made is that both Shinn's (per the TV series) and Hamlet's stories seem to have ended before whatever larger conflict is happening in each of their respective stories.

So the comparison is regarding their relative status to their surroundings rather than a direct comparison of their two characters.

Now, from what I can gather, you are arguing that, in Destiny, the war is the bigger story, which would make the climax to be the scene in the Messiah. But if that is the case, then is Kira not the protagonist of SEED? Because as manipulative and instrumental as Rau was to the war in SEED, it took the death of Zala and the destruction of the GENESIS to end the war in SEED, in which Kira took no active part.

In fact, going back to Destiny, the scene in the Messiah climaxed with Rey deciding to put his faith in the future as it is and the scene in the ending of Final Plus climaxed in Shinn deciding to not give up on the future. In both scenes, Kira may have played a part, but the focus ended not being on him.

It was only in the ending of the SE that Kira finally had the focus, but that was obviously supposed to lead into the planned movie, which meant he (or Lacus) was likely to be the protagonist for the movie.
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Old 2013-07-18, 18:27   Link #8344
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
I don't remember much of Hamlet, so I don't how correct this is, but it seems the comparison being made is that both Shinn's (per the TV series) and Hamlet's stories seem to have ended before whatever larger conflict is happening in each of their respective stories.

So the comparison is regarding their relative status to their surroundings rather than a direct comparison of their two characters.

Now, from what I can gather, you are arguing that, in Destiny, the war is the bigger story, which would make the climax to be the scene in the Messiah. But if that is the case, then is Kira not the protagonist of SEED? Because as manipulative and instrumental as Rau was to the war in SEED, it took the death of Zala and the destruction of the GENESIS to end the war in SEED, in which Kira took no active part.

In fact, going back to Destiny, the scene in the Messiah climaxed with Rey deciding to put his faith in the future as it is and the scene in the ending of Final Plus climaxed in Shinn deciding to not give up on the future. In both scenes, Kira may have played a part, but the focus ended not being on him.

It was only in the ending of the SE that Kira finally had the focus, but that was obviously supposed to lead into the planned movie, which meant he (or Lacus) was likely to be the protagonist for the movie.
I really don’t wanna do this debate since like I said before, I know Hamlet, and his story is different from Shinn. It’s gonna be too long if I have to explain to you how Hamlet plays out (which clearly I’m not too enthusiastic about it considering how eyerolling this comparison is to me). Still, I’ll give you this: SEED pretty much climaxed when Rau, the main antagonist as well as the man behind some key events in SEED battled Kira to his death. Note that “climaxed” doesn’t always mean the end (although it can be). The same thing happened again when Kira confronted Gill. Those are the climaxes of the story, and as far as my experience goes, no true protagonist in any story ever easily left out from the climax of the story like Shinn.

Now if you’ll excuse me. I need to go to work again.
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Old 2013-07-18, 18:33   Link #8345
Rising Dragon
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Plus there was no resolution to Shinn's story and characterization at all in the original run, and had to make FINAL Plus to fix that. They quite literally forgot about him.
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Old 2013-07-18, 20:50   Link #8346
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Still, I’ll give you this: SEED pretty much climaxed when Rau, the main antagonist as well as the man behind some key events in SEED battled Kira to his death. Note that “climaxed” doesn’t always mean the end (although it can be).
Indeed. Although, again, had Athrun not destroyed the GENESIS, Kira killing Rau would not have any meaning. On the other hand, even if Kira could not kill Rau, the loss of the GENESIS would still be a victory for the Three Ships Alliance.
Quote:
The same thing happened again when Kira confronted Gill.
Except the climax in that scene comes when Rey shot Durandal.
Quote:
Those are the climaxes of the story, and as far as my experience goes, no true protagonist in any story ever easily left out from the climax of the story like Shinn.
The other climactic point of the story was when Shinn was defeated by Athrun. And with the defeat of Shinn, Durandal's best pilot who was entrusted with the mobile suit bearing the same name as his ultimate plan, that was when Durandal's loss became a reality.
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Plus there was no resolution to Shinn's story and characterization at all in the original run, and had to make FINAL Plus to fix that. They quite literally forgot about him.
Considering Final Plus aired so soon after Destiny, I'm thinking it's just because of the late scripts and whatever they had to do to adjust that prevented it from fitting in the original allocated time slot.

Other than that, Final Plus was basically a more elaborate form of SEED's After-Phase. Shinn basically had the same ending as Kira in SEED, only from the loser's perspective.
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Old 2013-07-18, 20:53   Link #8347
Rising Dragon
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No, Final Plus was the result of a lot of backlash against the lack of Shinn's resolution and the Flawless Victory, as they tried to change it up so SOME of the Gundams got damaged. So no, they forgot about Shinn.
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Old 2013-07-18, 20:58   Link #8348
monster
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
No, Final Plus was the result of a lot of backlash against the lack of Shinn's resolution and the Flawless Victory, as they tried to change it up so SOME of the Gundams got damaged. So no, they forgot about Shinn.
Except both the Strike Freedom and the Infinite Justice were still undamaged as far as I recall.

Which Gundam was damaged in Final Plus that wasn't in the original episodes?
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Old 2013-07-18, 21:04   Link #8349
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Except both the Strike Freedom and the Infinite Justice were still undamaged as far as I recall.

Which Gundam was damaged in Final Plus that wasn't in the original episodes?
The Strike Freedom and Akatsuki were undamaged in the original episode, the Infinite Justice sacrificed its subflight lifter. They sorta dinged up Akatsuki, I guess, and toned the Flawless Victory pose's amount of sparkles. Dearka and Hilda also took damage to help mitigate the Flawless Victory. All in all, they did a terrible job on that aspect, like they did with half the goddamn season.
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Old 2013-07-18, 21:08   Link #8350
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Yeah, I don't think they would create Final Plus just to fix something they could've done in the DVD version, and then do a terrible job at it.
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Old 2013-07-18, 21:15   Link #8351
Rising Dragon
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Yeah, I don't think they would create Final Plus just to fix something they could've done in the DVD version, and then do a terrible job at it.
We're talking about the director who switched protagonists, flip-flopped on explanations every other damn week, and slapped half a dozen clip shows and used stock footage at every second whenever possible. And you think he wouldn't rush a fix that still ended up lousy?

Can you please stop defending the worst parts of the show? Seriously, you hail even the dumbest points as masterpieces when it comes to SEED.
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Old 2013-07-18, 21:23   Link #8352
monster
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
We're talking about the director who switched protagonists, flip-flopped on explanations every other damn week, and slapped half a dozen clip shows and used stock footage at every second whenever possible. And you think he wouldn't rush a fix that still ended up lousy?

Can you please stop defending the worst parts of the show? Seriously, you hail even the dumbest points as masterpieces when it comes to SEED.
No, I would think he would just be lazy about any fix and wait for the DVD version. And when did I hail anything of SEED as a masterpiece?

Also, do you have proof that Final Plus was made as a response to a backlash for the "flawless" victory in the original episodes? Was there even a backlash to the last episode's battle such that Sunrise/Bandai would care to make a fix? Was there an interview about any of this?
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Old 2013-07-18, 21:23   Link #8353
Aquaman OS
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Final Plus had nothing to do with the fighting part of the finale, although they added some more stuff to that.

The reason people hated the Flawless Victory ending wasn't because nobody was damaged but because it ended with them all posing heroically despite them taking down the guy who had the world mostly under his control, and that was it. No showing what happened to anyone afterwords, just that Kira's side defeated Durandal which everyone knew was gonna happen anyway. Was there peace? Did Shinn swear revenge? Did another Durandal supporter take over and nothing changed? Did all the many Zaft forces still active continue to fight to the death? Did Kira and co go back into hiding at Orb again, having taken down another evil goverment but not sticking around to clean up the damage like in Seed?

Final Plus showed that yes they managed peace, Orb and Plant became allies again and the halt of the Destiny Plan didn't cause total chaos (and also showed that nobody on Earth really wanted it anyway based on their relief or neutral expressions). Zaft did stand down following Durandal's death. Shinn realized he was wrong, and made his peace with his issues. Lacus took over Plant chairman, and the Clyne Faction didn't go into hiding but folded into the established order. Essentially it gave the series closure, as oppose to just "Durandal's dead. The end. Who cares about the loose ends left by that?"

All the Special Edition added to that was confirm that everyone was still in the active service, probably to set up the movie, which is still stalled.
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Old 2013-07-18, 21:29   Link #8354
monster
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I'm pretty sure SEED originally ended in the battlefield too. (There was no pose, but there was a magical flying mechanical space bird.) There was no showing of what happened afterward until the After-Phase. So as I said before, Final Plus was Destiny's more elaborate equivalent of SEED's After-Phase.
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Old 2013-07-18, 22:00   Link #8355
Aquaman OS
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Even in the original ending of Seed you heard Zaft and EA guys telling their forces to stand down. And even if not both forces were devastated and their leaders killed, and Canaver was shown to have taken control from Zala.

In Destiny all they did was blown up Durandal's space laser and kill him. Zaft still had tons of forces, and it wasn't clear if that was it for Durandal's faction or if they'd still keep fighting (not to mention the Destiny Plan and who did or didn't want it). They ended it with tons of open ends. In Seed even before After Phase it was clear the war was over.
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Old 2013-07-18, 22:18   Link #8356
monster
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I see your point, although I think it can be safely assumed that the war ended when the credits roll in phase 50, with Durandal and the AF President dead, and the Messiah and the Requiem destroyed.

Beside, you can't exactly have a group victory pose if the war isn't over.
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Old 2013-07-18, 23:01   Link #8357
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
No. Not a total Star Wars analogue. Just that the director was a fan of episodes 1-3 and wanted to homage the whole "good guy going down a dark path" route with Shinn.
Problem with that is, as bad as the prequels were, Anakin had to become Darth Vader in order for the Original Trilogy to happen. And Destiny was a sequel to Seed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
The Strike Freedom and Akatsuki were undamaged in the original episode, the Infinite Justice sacrificed its subflight lifter. They sorta dinged up Akatsuki, I guess, and toned the Flawless Victory pose's amount of sparkles. Dearka and Hilda also took damage to help mitigate the Flawless Victory. All in all, they did a terrible job on that aspect, like they did with half the goddamn season.
They still don't count.

Are there any other Gundam shows that feature a Flawless Victory ending (or at least, where the lead Gundams rarely take damage)?
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Old 2013-07-18, 23:05   Link #8358
Aquaman OS
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Problem with that is, as bad as the prequels were, Anakin had to become Darth Vader in order for the Original Trilogy to happen. And Destiny was a sequel to Seed.
Bad or good is not my point. The point was Fukuda liked episodes 1-3 and wanted to try the "Well intentioned hero goes down the dark path due to his own anger issues and careful manipulating" and tried it with Shinn. It had nothing to do with Seed turning into Star Wars or Shinn having to have the character arc he did. That was just what Fukuda wanted to do.
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Old 2013-07-19, 00:28   Link #8359
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Yes, they ReTracked "Quiet Night CE 73", and they'll ReTrack "Emotion":

http://www.gundam.info/topic/8807
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Old 2013-07-19, 01:21   Link #8360
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The people who hated the "flawless victory" part are the ones who Bandai cares about the least: Us! a.k.a the people who are not from Japan, a.k.a not the targeted audience. So I'm not sure how the internet's opinion played a part in anything, ever..
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