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Old 2013-07-19, 01:44   Link #8361
The American Average
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So Japanese like "flawless victory" endings? I think everywhere around the world doesn't like a curb stomp one sided endings.
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Old 2013-07-19, 01:53   Link #8362
I Fail at Life
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So Japanese like "flawless victory" endings? I think everywhere around the world doesn't like a curb stomp one sided endings.
I bet the haters in the States would have no problem with it if Kira was on the receiving end of it..
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Old 2013-07-19, 01:56   Link #8363
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doubt it, Kira has as much lovers as haters in the states. its just the haters are louder than the lovers.
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Old 2013-07-19, 02:15   Link #8364
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I don't know why, but the episode did not do anything for me. Other than reinforce how stupid Shinn becomes later on. I mean does he completely forget the talk he had with Athrun at the end of this episode? Or does he simply ignore it in favor of Rey's supporting his actions?

And was it me or was the glass during Luna's shower scene more revealing this time around?

Last edited by S.Freedom; 2013-07-19 at 02:49.
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Old 2013-07-19, 02:19   Link #8365
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I don't know why, but the episode did do anything for me. Other than reinforce how stupid Shinn becomes later on. I mean does he completely forget the talk he had with Athrun at the end of this episode? Or does he simply ignore it in favor of Rey's supporting his actions?

And was it me or was the glass during Luna's shower scene more revealing this time around?
Sorry I had to .

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Originally Posted by S.Freedom
I mean does he completely forget the talk he had with Athrun at the end of this episode? Or does he simply ignore it in favor of Rey's supporting his actions?
Edit: That's ok because Seed Destiny ends at episode 20.
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Old 2013-07-19, 02:55   Link #8366
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Wink

Dag nabit you wiseinhimmer. You just haaaaaad to point out my grammatical mistake didn't you.(shakes fist)

Anywho, Is anyone else hoping Kira catches Luna spying on him and Athruns meeting this time?
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Old 2013-07-19, 05:59   Link #8367
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Because the "moral turmoil" with the Minerva ISN'T THERE for 90 percent of the story.
Yes and no. Shinn doesn't become truly damaged by this until Shinn becomes truly a villain. But the whole "will he find his path" ordeal IS the story.

And he DOES reflect upon it. Athrun WAS getting through to him throughout the show. We are on episode 17 and we have Shinn's first "Oh shit, maybe I'm screwing things up" moment.

He may have ended up on Rey's side, but let's not pretend he never considered the other option.

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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Actually Shinn was in a blind rage when Luna got in the way. He never intended to try and kill Luna, he was simply at the end of his wits and couldn't see that it was her during all the red in his eyes.
He actually pauses for a moment and hesitates before charging forward. He saw her. The dialogue makes it pretty plain. He just couldn't bring himself to admit that what he was doing wasn't worth EVERY sacrifice.

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Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
His inner conflicts were never that well explored, and therefore poorly defined.
Well, the show doesn't spend ALL of its time with Shinn going "Should I or shouldn't I?" but it does spend a lot of time on the "will he or won't he?"

Think of how many scenes exist almost entirely to show Shinn as heroic and well meaning, or show him as impulsive and careless. Saving Athrun, saving slaves, saving Stella, slaughtering EA forces, killing Todoka, killing Kira...

Think of how many of the characters in this show follow the same theme as Shinn, well meaning moral people who end up in the wrong side: Cagalli, Athrun, Neo, Meer... Yzak and Dearka to a lesser extent.

Think of how many lines of dialogue are spent on Athrun and Rey/Durandal trying to convince Shinn of what is right and wrong.

The corruption of the innocent IS the main theme of the show, and Shinn is the central story in that theme. He's your protagonist, beginning to end.

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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I never said such a thing must be exclusive. A story can have both a global-conflicts focus and moral turmoil depiction. What makes you think the two must be separated?
Then why are you acting like the Kira versus Destiny Plan plot introduced in the last half dozen episodes it the CENTRAL conflict and Shinn's corruption introduced in the FIRST half dozen episodes is in the sidelines?

And if you think I compared Hamlet to Destiny in terms of QUALITY then you need to work on your reading comprehension.

Although it is funny that Shakespeare is considered high class today when in his time what made him truly popular was his ability to convey big, high level ideas while keeping his plays entertaining for the masses with gossip, low brow humor and big fight scenes. If Shakespeare was alive today, he wouldn't be doing theater, he'd be doing nerd crap like this...

Well, GREAT nerd crap, so no quite like this, but still...

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No, Final Plus was the result of a lot of backlash against the lack of Shinn's resolution and the Flawless Victory, as they tried to change it up so SOME of the Gundams got damaged. So no, they forgot about Shinn.
The show didn't receive any serious backlash from JAPANESE audiences... Do you think Final Plus was made in reaction to AMERICAN audience?

And Shinn's sigh of relief at the sight of Requiem being destroyed and Luna telling him Orb is fine IS the end of his arc. He isn't angry, he isn't pissed, he isn't rushing to the Impulse to get back to the fight. He's okay with this turn of events. Those are not angry tears he's shedding...

Also, is it a flawless victory, or a total and complete loss? Depends on how you look at it, doesn't it?
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Old 2013-07-19, 06:35   Link #8368
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Indeed. Although, again, had Athrun not destroyed the GENESIS, Kira killing Rau would not have any meaning. On the other hand, even if Kira could not kill Rau, the loss of the GENESIS would still be a victory for the Three Ships Alliance.

The other climactic point of the story was when Shinn was defeated by Athrun. And with the defeat of Shinn, Durandal's best pilot who was entrusted with the mobile suit bearing the same name as his ultimate plan, that was when Durandal's loss became a reality.
Like I said before, a climax doesn’t always mean the end of the largest conflict that happen in the story’s universe. A climax is the moment when the ultimate suspense reach its peak and bring the story to a conclusion. In SEED, the battle between Kira & Rau is the climax. That is the peak of the suspense (the audience are watching the protagonist fighting the antagonist for the last time and not sure how it will end for both of them). In Destiny, the climax happened when Kira confronted Durandal. Why? Because the suspense reached its peak there. Again, a suspenseful final stand-off happened between Kira and the ultimate antagonist of the show. Kira was aiming a gun at Gill while Rey aiming his gun at Kira. It’s really different compared to how Kira and Athrun pretty much owning Shinn and Rey in their respective Gundams when they finally got serious. Let’s compare Destiny’s finale to Bond movies. Borrowing the 007 terms, Shinn and Rey are pretty much the big-bad-boss’ henchmen. Now, everyone knows that when Bond is fighting the henchman first, while the big-bad-boss is still sitting and smiling somewhere far away, we’re not reaching the climax of the story yet. The same thing also applied to Shinn & Rey who fought TSA first before the climactic end with Durandal.

So, once again, a climax doesn’t always mean the fall of the antagonist’ grand plan. The antagonist’s plan can be ruined, but he can still threaten or fight the protagonist afterwards. That final moment of conflict between those two that will bring us to the conclusion of the story is the climax.

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Except the climax in that scene comes when Rey shot Durandal.
Exactly. You still prove my point that the final confrontation with Durandal is the climax, no matter who backstab-shot Durandal. The core confrontation is between Kira (protagonist) and Durandal (antagonist), and the suspense is there when Kira was aiming at Durandal while Rey (Durandal's minion) is aiming at Kira. It’s the event that matters, not who or what kill the big-bad-boss in the end.

_______________________________________________

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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Then why are you acting like the Kira versus Destiny Plan plot introduced in the last half dozen episodes it the CENTRAL conflict and Shinn's corruption introduced in the FIRST half dozen episodes is in the sidelines?
Exactly, because the last half or third of the show is focusing more on the global conflict which evetually leads to Destiny Plan. Just count how much the show spent its overall time presenting us international conflicts involving central characters from ORB, ZAFT, The terrorist, LOGOS, PLANT, Terminal, Archangel, and PLANT compared to exploring Shinn as a character. That’s why I said Destiny is such a clusterfuck of a story. It has Shinn as its protagonist during the start and middle of the show only to be degraded into be the big-boss’ pet at the end. Note that I acknowledge Shinn as the protagonist at the start of Destiny, but starting to lose his “protagonist-ness” as more episodes went by until he got discarded like some second-rate character who didn’t even make it to the climax of the story. Hell, even Rey make it to the climax, but not Shinn . That itself speak volumes of how messed up Destiny is (originally before Final Plus’ “let’s fix it” effort)

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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
And if you think I compared Hamlet to Destiny in terms of QUALITY then you need to work on your reading comprehension.
Actually, I already adressed it way before your post:
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
My comment after the “ill-comparison” sentence is just a side-note I made. Not necessarily responding to Deadpool2000’s previous comparison.
So, it’s not me who need to work on reading comprehension .
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Last edited by Obelisk ze Tormentor; 2013-07-19 at 07:07.
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Old 2013-07-19, 09:18   Link #8369
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Like I said before, a climax doesn’t always mean the end of the largest conflict that happen in the story’s universe. A climax is the moment when the ultimate suspense reach its peak and bring the story to a conclusion. In SEED, the battle between Kira & Rau is the climax. That is the peak of the suspense (the audience are watching the protagonist fighting the antagonist for the last time and not sure how it will end for both of them). In Destiny, the climax happened when Kira confronted Durandal. Why? Because the suspense reached its peak there. Again, a suspenseful final stand-off happened between Kira and the ultimate antagonist of the show. Kira was aiming a gun at Gill while Rey aiming his gun at Kira. It’s really different compared to how Kira and Athrun pretty much owning Shinn and Rey in their respective Gundams when they finally got serious. Let’s compare Destiny’s finale to Bond movies. Borrowing the 007 terms, Shinn and Rey are pretty much the big-bad-boss’ henchmen. Now, everyone knows that when Bond is fighting the henchman first, while the big-bad-boss is still sitting and smiling somewhere far away, we’re not reaching the climax of the story yet. The same thing also applied to Shinn & Rey who fought TSA first before the climactic end with Durandal.

So, once again, a climax doesn’t always mean the fall of the antagonist’ grand plan. The antagonist’s plan can be ruined, but he can still threaten or fight the protagonist afterwards. That final moment of conflict between those two that will bring us to the conclusion of the story is the climax.
The climax is the highest intensity of the story, not the suspense that often leads to a climax. And that point of intensity happened when Shinn snapped and was finally defeated by Athrun. After that, it was already a foregone conclusion that ZAFT had lost.
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Exactly. You still prove my point that the final confrontation with Durandal is the climax, no matter who backstab-shot Durandal. The core confrontation is between Kira (protagonist) and Durandal (antagonist), and the suspense is there when Kira was aiming at Durandal while Rey (Durandal's minion) is aiming at Kira. It’s the event that matters, not who or what kill the big-bad-boss in the end.
The meeting between Durandal and Kira wraps things up, but since Destiny is a Gundam war story, you already knew that Durandal had lost after Shinn lost, so the intensity was lower. The climax leads to the conclusion, but it is not necessarily the conclusion.
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Old 2013-07-19, 10:29   Link #8370
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The climax is the highest intensity of the story, not the suspense that often leads to a climax. And that point of intensity happened when Shinn snapped and was finally defeated by Athrun. After that, it was already a foregone conclusion that ZAFT had lost.
Ultimate suspense/peak of the suspense/highest tension (not the usual suspense) is the highest intensity of a story. It’s only a matter of wording. And the rest of my arguments still stands.

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The meeting between Durandal and Kira wraps things up, but since Destiny is a Gundam war story, you already knew that Durandal had lost after Shinn lost, so the intensity was lower. The climax leads to the conclusion, but it is not necessarily the conclusion.
Durandal lost his game, but he can still end Kira’s life through his minion’s hands, Rey. Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately, for some people) Rey didn’t shoot Kira. Still not changing the fact that the highest tension lie more during Durandal’s scene than the battles of Shinn vs Athrun and Kira vs Rey. Hell, Shinn/Destiny got obliterated in no time once Athrun/Justice stopped persuading and get in srsbsns-mode, and Rey/Legend can’t even scratch Kira/Strike Freedom’s paint-job . Where’s the intensity/tension/suspense in that? Very much unlike the scene of Kira/Freedom vs Rau/Providence. The peak of intensity/tension/suspense is reached when two opposing sides facing equal risks (in case of SEED & Destiny’s climaxes, it’s the lost of either the protagonist or the antagonist’s life), not one side totally owning the other.

All in all, if you're confused with this argument, it's only natural since we're talking about Destiny which has one of the most messed-up story for a serious real-robot anime .
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Old 2013-07-19, 11:05   Link #8371
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Exactly, because the last half or third of the show is focusing more on the global conflict
Does it? Most of the show is still focused on SHINN's place in said conflict, beginning to end. Hell, while Athrun and Kira are having their big battle with trying to destroy the relay station the show is STILL cutting back to Shinn and buildng his resolve to fight.

Shinn's place in the conflict IS the story, not the conflict itself. Look at how quickly is all wraps up after Shinn falls.

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Hell, even Rey make it to the climax, but not Shinn . That itself speak volumes of how messed up Destiny is (originally before Final Plusí ďletís fix itĒ effort)
You seem to be under the impression that the killing and the explosions are the real climax, which is just silly.

And even if they were, the final scene has zero meaning to the conflict. ZAFT lost, Durandal is dead. That scene is just tying loose ends, answering the whole "Is the Destiny Plan right or wrong?" question posed earlier and removing three characters from a potential sequel while humanizing rey by making him another Shinn (well meaning young man manipulated into the evil side by Durandal).

It ties the bow around the story, but the climax is that moment when Destiny charges at Luna...

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Actually, I already adressed it way before your post:
So, itís not me who need to work on reading comprehension .
It isn't? I was under the impressions I was supposed to be looking at the original post as opposed to your revision of it... Why should the expanded, better explained version of your argument be taken in consideration instead of the original where I have an easier time complaining about it?
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Old 2013-07-19, 11:38   Link #8372
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Durandal lost his game, but he can still end Kira’s life through his minion’s hands, Rey.
The story in Destiny did not revolve around Kira's character, so killing him after the fact would do nothing to the story except to add more tragedy.
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Still not changing the fact that the highest tension lie more during Durandal’s scene than the battles of Shinn vs Athrun and Kira vs Rey. Hell, Shinn/Destiny got obliterated in no time once Athrun/Justice stopped persuading and get in srsbsns-mode, and Rey/Legend can’t even scratch Kira/Strike Freedom’s paint-job . Where’s the intensity/tension/suspense in that? Very much unlike the scene of Kira/Freedom vs Rau/Providence. The peak of intensity/tension/suspense is reached when two opposing sides facing equal risks (in case of SEED & Destiny’s climaxes, it’s the lost of either the protagonist or the antagonist’s life), not one side totally owning the other.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the execution was perfect, but it still doesn't change the fact that Shinn's loss was necessary to the story while the meeting between Kira and Durandal was not. They never even interacted prior to that point and Kira had no real need to confront Durandal personally. Kira could've easily just let Durandal die from the destruction of the Messiah.

That's why the climax of the story, regardless of how good (or bad) the execution might have been, still lies with Shinn's defeat. Because if Shinn had not lost, Durandal could still win.

The meeting, instead, is a form of a conclusion after having reached the climax.
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Old 2013-07-19, 11:56   Link #8373
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Speaking of Star Wars, I'm guessing that these are supposed to be the analogues:
  • Kira = Luke
  • Athrun = Obi-Wan
  • Cagalli = Leia
  • Shinn = Anakin
  • Durandal = Palpatine
  • Mayu = Shmi (?)
  • Stella = Padme (?)

Problem with the Shinn-Anakin connection is that Anakin HAD to become Darth Vader to set him up for the Original Trilogy.

I can't imagine Shinn saying this:

Shinn: No. I am your father.
Kira: NOOOOOO~!
I thought Athrun would be Han Solo.
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Old 2013-07-19, 12:38   Link #8374
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Lacus took over Plant chairman, and the Clyne Faction didn't go into hiding but folded into the established order.
Lacus didn't become chairman. She was a member of the council yes, but not chairman.
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Old 2013-07-19, 12:57   Link #8375
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Lacus didn't become chairman. She was a member of the council yes, but not chairman.
Then who is Chairman? according to the Gundam Wiki Lacus became Chairwoman of ZAFT
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Old 2013-07-19, 13:11   Link #8376
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Then who is Chairman? according to the Gundam Wiki Lacus became Chairwoman of ZAFT
The interim Chairperson is that woman who shook hands with Cagalli. Lacus might have become the Chairwoman later on, but I don't think there was any official revelation. Or she might be an ambassador or even continued her role as a mediator.
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Old 2013-07-19, 13:39   Link #8377
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Then who is Chairman? according to the Gundam Wiki Lacus became Chairwoman of ZAFT
I don't know who the chairman is, but according to Wikipedia, in the end of Final Plus and the Destiny Special editions, she stayed as just a member of the PLANT supreme council. Right after, there's a source thumbnail, so it's not made up. The source is below.

""DATA GUNDAM" file". Monthly Gundam Ace (in Japanese). May 2007.
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Old 2013-07-19, 13:39   Link #8378
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I thought Athrun would be Han Solo.
Mu La Flaga would be Han Solo.

Could Lacus be Mara Jade?
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Old 2013-07-19, 16:22   Link #8379
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Does it? Most of the show is still focused on SHINN's place in said conflict, beginning to end. Hell, while Athrun and Kira are having their big battle with trying to destroy the relay station the show is STILL cutting back to Shinn and buildng his resolve to fight.

Shinn's place in the conflict IS the story, not the conflict itself. Look at how quickly is all wraps up after Shinn falls.
Like I said, you can try to count the time when the series spent time exploring Shinn’s character than busy with all the fighting and conflict involving other characters if you don’t believe me.

It all wraps out so quickly because the animator team was running out of time . They get their second chance with Final Plus, and look which scene got expanded: Kira vs Durandal's scene which more involving Athrun as well as some epilogue. That was the highlight of Final Plus.

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It ties the bow around the story, but the climax is that moment when Destiny charges at Luna...
Oh yeah, absolutely. The climax of the series is when Shinn was about to attack his eye-rollingly-underdeveloped girlfriend. Wow, I’m suddenly enlightened .

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Why should the expanded, better explained version of your argument be taken in consideration instead of the original where I have an easier time complaining about it?
Because it helps making people (who don’t understand my post the first time around) understand it? Also, it’s not a revision. That was the point all along. I knew you were just comparing Hamlet and Shinn, not the quality of whole thing. Like I said, it was just a side-note expressing my feelings comparing Hamlet and Destiny as a whole. And those that I bolded from your comment already made your intention glaringly obvious that you just want to complain at me.

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The story in Destiny did not revolve around Kira's character, so killing him after the fact would do nothing to the story except to add more tragedy.
That’s the point. The show is changing its protagonist in a craptastic way. The last third of Destiny was supposed to make Kira the protagonist. It’s just Sunrise didn’t do a great job at it while at the same time also half-assedly brushing off Shinn as the protagonist. The focus on the real protagonist is really messed-up I tell you.

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Kira could've easily just let Durandal die from the destruction of the Messiah.

That's why the climax of the story, regardless of how good (or bad) the execution might have been, still lies with Shinn's defeat. Because if Shinn had not lost, Durandal could still win.

The meeting, instead, is a form of a conclusion after having reached the climax.
That was just one of many plot holes provided by series.

Yes, Shinn’s lost was necessary so that the story can keep going with confronting Durandal. Just like how James Bond need to defeat the boss-villain’s henchman first before reaching the said final boss, which is the climax of the story. Don’t you know that many Bond's climactic fight with the boss happens when the boss already lost almost everything and about to flee the scene or waiting there to kill Bond just to get even?

Let’s just agree to disagree at this point.
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Old 2013-07-19, 17:42   Link #8380
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I thought Athrun would be Han Solo.
Hell no, Han Solo is way more badass/cocky than Athrun will ever be

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Originally Posted by Washu-Chan View Post
Mu La Flaga would be Han Solo.

Could Lacus be Mara Jade?
Mu is definitely the prime candidate for that comparison

HELL NO, MARA JADE IS BADASS, Lacus is NOWHERE NEAR her
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