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Old 2013-07-23, 02:38   Link #8421
Aquaman OS
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Athrun felt bad about killing Kira, and was horrified about Alaska, but he didn't start believing Zaft was in the wrong, until Zala ordered him to chase Freedom and kill or destroy anyone or place that had seen it.

No Freedom theft, that doesn't happen. Zala was unhinged sure, but it was the theft of Freedom and the revelation of people in Zaft willing to betray him, as well as the sudden threat that the NJC could fall into EA's hands that really got him unhinged as to start killing or arresting the people in the Clyne Faction and yelling at everyone.

No Freedom theft, and he'd remain as he was. Wanting genocide but hiding it and coming off as the respectable commander.

Freedom's theft is a total game changer. You can't remove it from the story without making it....well not Seed anymore. It's the motivation that causes all this. Zala wouldn't go crazy when he did, and Athrun wouldn't betray Zaft when he did, and now you've got a totally different end game.

Freedom also HAS to come from Zaft. Orb can't built it (they barely have the Astrays and Strike repaired, let alone make something super powerful like the Freedom), and EA...well they could. But if they did there's no way CF is getting it.
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Old 2013-07-23, 03:32   Link #8422
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
So? Be real, if the Archangel managed to pull through, would you REALLY have gone "whelp, this is bullshit and this show makes zero sense!"?
That depends on how they did it.
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Kira's help was the OS. Remember, they did manage to design the Akatsuki in the interim, so they are not lacking in technical capability or manpower. They designed the last couple of Gundams and they have plenty of data on them. And they have their own Coordinators.

They have the means, the data, the tech, the supplies and the reason to have a Gundam. Every superpower has made some. Orb NOT making new gen Gundams makes less sense actually.
That doesn't mean they could've built something like the Freedom in time for the events in SEED. They don't even have NJC technology.
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Orb is Cagalli's place, and they were defending a Mass Driver, which, if the EA got, would create trouble for ZAFT.
That doesn't matter if ZAFT could destroy the EA forces on Earth. And even if Patrick Zala cared about Orb's mass driver, he would've likely send an actual fleet to attack the EA fleet or even to attack Orb himself.
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Cagalli is reason enough for him to help Orb. And him helping Orb is reason enough for the Archangel to accept him.
Cagalli is not reason enough, and beside, if Athrun was sent elsewhere, he wouldn't even know that Orb needed help.
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Sure, but things would change afterwards obviously. The discussion is how hard making these changes realistic would be.
Those changes would still need to conform to what's already been established to be realistic.
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That would have been the talk he had with Cagalli where he cries over killing his friend.
No, he was sad that he had to kill his best friend, but there was no doubt in ZAFT's role in the war. The EA was the aggressor and he is there to protect ZAFT.
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Until Zala has Clyne killed.

He was unhinged and mad with grief. The theft of the Freedom was a great excuse, but it wasn't really needed. We could have him order Clyne's death just by spreading anti war propaganda, ie being a traitor.
That's unlikely. Without the Freedom's theft, Clyne would still have legal standing to voice his disagreement. The PLANTs are not a dictatorship and Zala couldn't have had Clyne killed merely for disagreeing with him.
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Already did. They fight their way out. It's a fast, capable ship. It out maneuvers the units, it runs away like hell. Internally consistent.
Uh, no, in battle, a ship like the Archangel wouldn't be able to outmaneuver the mobile suits. That's why the Archangel had to be saved several times by mobile suits of its own.
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Her father dead.
Again, unlikely for reason stated above.
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He would join ORB.
Why would he even do that?
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Uneeded but... He's crazy? He hates them? Athrun manipulates him into it? He's worried about Orb? He'd rather Athrun keep a personal eye on the battle instead?
Patrick Zala hardly even focused on the Archangel.
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Which doesn't take any work.
I suppose, if you don't care about believability.
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I already did an outline of most of it in about a minute? This is a major overhaul here.
Yeah, but what you created doesn't flow well with what's already been established. For example:
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He knows he's captured, he can see the Buster fighting. Not much of a stretch.
No, Athrun doesn't know that Dearka was captured. And the logical assumption at seeing the Buster would've been that someone else is piloting it, like Yzak thought.
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Athrun took Lacus to the Archangel in the original. Not much need for change here.
First, Athrun was already with the Archangel. Second, Kira was there to help. With Kira dead, the former is improbable and the latter is impossible.
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Old 2013-07-23, 10:30   Link #8423
Deadpool2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Athrun felt bad about killing Kira, and was horrified about Alaska, but he didn't start believing Zaft was in the wrong, until Zala ordered him to chase Freedom and kill or destroy anyone or place that had seen it.

No Freedom theft, that doesn't happen. Zala was unhinged sure, but it was the theft of Freedom and the revelation of people in Zaft willing to betray him, as well as the sudden threat that the NJC could fall into EA's hands that really got him unhinged as to start killing or arresting the people in the Clyne Faction and yelling at everyone.

No Freedom theft, and he'd remain as he was. Wanting genocide but hiding it and coming off as the respectable commander.

Freedom's theft is a total game changer. You can't remove it from the story without making it....well not Seed anymore. It's the motivation that causes all this. Zala wouldn't go crazy when he did, and Athrun wouldn't betray Zaft when he did, and now you've got a totally different end game.

Freedom also HAS to come from Zaft. Orb can't built it (they barely have the Astrays and Strike repaired, let alone make something super powerful like the Freedom), and EA...well they could. But if they did there's no way CF is getting it.
This is amazing... I swear to you there isn't a secret dimension where the events of this anime actually happen. Everything that "only happened because" can be changed to happen "because of something else." Because it is FICTION.

Zala didn't have the right to hve Clyne killed even in the original. Even if his daughter is a criminal, even if he is suspected of hiding her, kill on sight is not acceptible. Due process and all that. Same with "restraining" any council member that agrees with him, or blaming him for the events failure of Spit Break. Zala's actions ALREADY DON'T MAKE SENSE. The Freedom theft is a convenient excuse, but the destruction of the majority of his fources could be used as an excuse JUST AS EASILY.

And Orb can build whatever the hell the writer wants Orb to build. They don't need N-Jammer Canceller, because their suit doesn't need to be exactly as good as the Justice, it just needs to be a badass mobile suit so someone can engage the druggies and Athrun can save it from them.

You really WANT to have an NJC? You can have Uzumi have developped one on his own, since they have Coordinators in their country, it is logical some would come from ZAFT (just as in Destiny, some Orb people went to ZAFT). Zala finds out Orb has NJC, pins the blame on Clyne (because he hates him) and sends Athrun to Orb to find out if they've put the NJC to any use and erase evidence of it, or prevent the EA to get it, or some other cheesy excuse. It doesn't need to make perfect sense because Zala is already off his damned rocker.

Events happen and don't happen as the writer chooses, and they happen BECAUSE of reasons the writer chooses. These events can't happen EXACTLY as they did, but some analogue of them could be made with relative ease. The only reason the Freedom theft is such a catalyst is because the Freedom theft ACTUALLY happened. If it hadn't, then someone ELSE would have to be the catalyst. Considering Zala's state of mind, it wouldn't have taken much.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
That depends on how they did it.
Exactly. I didn't say it would take ZERO work, I said it wouldn't be a MAJOR change. It wouldn't. Write a good fight and you can have them escape just fine.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
That doesn't mean they could've built something like the Freedom in time for the events in SEED. They don't even have NJC technology.
Don't need it. It doesn't need to be JUST LIKE the Freedom.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
That doesn't matter if ZAFT could destroy the EA forces on Earth. And even if Patrick Zala cared about Orb's mass driver, he would've likely send an actual fleet to attack the EA fleet or even to attack Orb himself.
And turn it into a three way battle? That sounds insane, especially since Orb and the EA have ties, this could be a trap like Alaska was. Not, better to send one his best pilots in his best mobile suit to keep an eye out and see if can tip the scales of the battle in whatever way benefits ZAFT.

Again, this wouldn't stretch the realm of possibility, nor would it be difficult to do.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Cagalli is not reason enough
Why not? She's the Cagalli Yula Atha. She can convince Orb to accept help from anybody she damned well pleases. Archangel doesn't get a say in that. Hell, even in the original, Cagalli had more to do with Athrun joining than Kira did. Notice how the tension doesn't dissipate until Cagalli hugs them.

Once Athrun is with Orb, him and Archangel are allies because THEY are with Orb too.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
and beside, if Athrun was sent elsewhere, he wouldn't even know that Orb needed help.
He wouldn't be sent anywhere but Orb because the story needs him to be at Orb. The question is whether or not we can get Athrun to Orb with a reasonable excuse. We know he will be at Orb because he HAS to be there.

This is fiction, remember?


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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Those changes would still need to conform to what's already been established to be realistic.
So which ones don't and why?

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
No, he was sad that he had to kill his best friend, but there was no doubt in ZAFT's role in the war.
There was plenty of doubt. Lacus calls him out on it when they meet.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
That's unlikely. Without the Freedom's theft, Clyne would still have legal standing to voice his disagreement. The PLANTs are not a dictatorship and Zala couldn't have had Clyne killed merely for disagreeing with him.
He had members of the council "detained" just for agreeing with Clyne in OTHER meetings and wanting to talk to Zala about the single biggest military loss in ZAFT history. This isn't a guy following due process here.

We play up Clyne's anti war tactics, Zala finds some flimsy excuse to blame him for Spit Break (which, btw, he DID in the original. Freedom Theft has NOTHING to do with Alaska) and declares him a traitor.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Uh, no, in battle, a ship like the Archangel wouldn't be able to outmaneuver the mobile suits. That's why the Archangel had to be saved several times by mobile suits of its own.
They held them pretty damned well during that battle. Destroyed quite a few mobile suits too. And remember, originally, they weren't escaping alone. They ordered other ships to retreat too.

If you wanted, you could have a scene of the Archangel only surviving thanks to the other EA ships getting killed. Pile some guilt on top of the crew too, because the show likes to guilt their mains.

Again, this isn't unrealistic, or outrageous, it is simply not how it happened. It could have and no one would have cared.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Patrick Zala hardly even focused on the Archangel.
Maybe now he's listening to Rau when Rau says how dangerous they are? Or maybe any one of the other half dozen excuses I listed? Or maybe he is sent to Orb for other reasons?

Are you saying you can think of ZERO logical reason why Patrick Zala, crazy, unhinged, kill everyone on Earth, shoot my own son Zala, would send someone to Orb?

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
I suppose, if you don't care about believability.
What's unbelievable about Orb creating a new, more powerful mobile suit? They've already created the Gundams before it. Why not a new gen?

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Yeah, but what you created doesn't flow well with what's already been established. For example: No, Athrun doesn't know that Dearka was captured.
Why not? I'm seriously asking, why wouldn't Athrun know Dearka is alive?

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
And the logical assumption at seeing the Buster would've been that someone else is piloting it, like Yzak thought.
Oh hey, and how DID that meeting with Yzak go again?

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
First, Athrun was already with the Archangel. Second, Kira was there to help. With Kira dead, the former is improbable and the latter is impossible.
If he joined Orb at the battle of Orb, then he'd be the TWO Ship Alliance when Lacus defect STILL. No one else seemed to question the Eternal coming to help, not like Kira helped them integrate there or anything.

Cagalli was running the show at that point, and she trusts Athrun. And they need all the help they can get. When Athrun comes back with a new battleship and a crew, no reason to turn that down.

Again, stop thinking like Uatu and start thinking like a WRITER. The story bends to your will. Can you really not find a way to make this story work with minor changes?
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Old 2013-07-23, 11:43   Link #8424
Rising Dragon
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I didn't say the same. I said it wouldn't take a lot of work.
No, it'd take a shit-ton of work, and the loss of Kira would severely hamper the chances of the war ending in a good note.

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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Do you remember how he died? Guy who shot him wasn't involved in ANY of those events.
Yeah, and you're forgetting that at the time, Zala had already lost his mind on the matter and his lunacy had come to light, what with him wanting to incinerate planet Earth, and let's not forget the fact that Zala SHOT HIM FIRST.

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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Patrick Zala's fanaticism and lunacy was self evident. Uzumi figured it out. From pretty much another planet.
Uzumi also had the unique position of being outside of ZAFT and the EA both to see the big picture. Athrun was in no such position, the lunatic in question was his father and he was hesitant to turn against him at first because, well, he was his father!

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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
This is not an alternate universe. It doesn't exist outside of the writer's mind. There is exactly zero chance the war ends up obliterating humanity. The only question is how difficult it would be to make it internally consistant.
No, the hypothetical situation of Kira's death during the Strike's last sortie makes this an alternate universe. Events have changed, this is not the same story as where he had lived.

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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Kira's help was the OS. Remember, they did manage to design the Akatsuki in the interim, so they are not lacking in technical capability or manpower. They designed the last couple of Gundams and they have plenty of data on them. And they have their own Coordinators.

They have the means, the data, the tech, the supplies and the reason to have a Gundam. Every superpower has made some. Orb NOT making new gen Gundams makes less sense actually.
Except they didn't have the TIME to create a new type of Gundam, making this point entirely moot.

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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Orb is Cagalli's place, and they were defending a Mass Driver, which, if the EA got, would create trouble for ZAFT.

Cagalli is reason enough for him to help Orb. And him helping Orb is reason enough for the Archangel to accept him.
And because ORB refuses to ally with ZAFT, Zala wouldn't bother to send them help and Athrun, being a good soldier and having no reason to doubt his father at this point, wouldn't betray him and go there on his own. And without the Freedom and Justice there, the EA would've ripped Orb apart in short order and chances are they wouldn't be a factor in the story any longer.

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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Sure, but things would change afterwards obviously. The discussion is how hard making these changes realistic would be.
The issues here are that the changes created are incredibly drastic. You simply cannot have the same story you did with Kira's death. Too many things change because events that hinged on Kira's presence can no longer happen.

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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
He was unhinged and mad with grief. The theft of the Freedom was a great excuse, but it wasn't really needed. We could have him order Clyne's death just by spreading anti war propaganda, ie being a traitor.
But until the Freedom was stolen, grief or not Zala had absolutely nothing to fear from EA. They had the NJC technology and the EA didn't. They were building G.E.N.E.S.I.S. and the EA didn't know. And most importantly of all, Rau Le Crueset wasn't revealed for the monster he is. He'd have a much harder time handing over the NJC data, and even if he did, ZAFT still has the Freedom and Justice and Eternal in their control, unless somehow Lacus manages to steal it--but if she did, where would she go? At this point, Cagalli can't help. Kira can't help. The Archangel can't help. They've all been neutralized. She'd be on her own. Frankly speaking she'd have a better chance sticking with ZAFT at that point and dealing with the problem internally, but given Zala and Le Crueset's insanity, chances are that won't work out.

No, deadpool, your hypothetical "everything still works out the same" just won't happen at all if you kill off Kira.
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Old 2013-07-23, 12:39   Link #8425
Aquaman OS
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You know what lets just say this. Yes all these changes could work if you don't care about OOC and inconsistant motivations and contrived storytelling.

But it would also suck. And be terrible writing. Even worse than what Seed already had. All for the sake of this "edgy' idea to kill the main character halfway through.

It's an awful idea. Stop talking about it.
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Old 2013-07-23, 16:54   Link #8426
Skye629
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From what I have seen in anime, killing main characters only seem to work if:

1. Its at the very end (Spike Spiegal, ok debatable, but I maintain he died)
2. Plot devices which don't give a shit about death (Dragonballs)
3. Absolutely integral to the story that the MC dies (Yuyu Hakusho, lol I still remember laughing so hard on the first episode after hearing he died)
4. MC was "the bad guy" (Death Note)

Of course this is based on what I have watched and noticed, and its also noticeable how Japan handles/view stuff differently from the West. Cultural differences always have a hand in these things

I would have liked it if Kira died end of SEED though, he would have had a great importance in ending the war and saving everyone from Rau's schemes. And his death would carry over to DESTINY haunting Athrun and co. (which could also affect his relations, not wanting to lose any more friends)
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Old 2013-07-23, 17:16   Link #8427
I Fail at Life
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I would have liked it if Kira died end of SEED though, he would have had a great importance in ending the war and saving everyone from Rau's schemes. And his death would carry over to DESTINY haunting Athrun and co. (which could also affect his relations, not wanting to lose any more friends)
Except killing Kira off at the end of Seed means that making a sequel (Destiny) would of less likely been considered.
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Old 2013-07-23, 17:34   Link #8428
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Wow, I’ve been ignoring this thread coz I’m too busy with work and building two of my Gundam models and posting in Gunpla thread. Ok, let’s see what we have here *looking at some replies to my last post*

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Unless, of course, you think that the protagonist has to be on the "good/winning" side.
Nope

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So, if there's a "James Bond" story where the "evil henchman" is the protagonist, it would be like what's happened in Destiny.
Bravo!! You said it like no one else! You are right, and degrading a protagonist into a yesman-henchman role during the last part of a story is one of the most F-up plot/turns-of-events I’ve ever seen. That is Destiny, ladies and gentlemen.

Anyway, I already said to agree to disagree, but I’ll give you my reason at least: That’s all due to the half-ass effort by Sunrise/Bandai to force Kira to the forefront to be the protagonist again by pushing Shinn away into one of the most unlikely role in the history of anime protagonist: becoming the bad-guy’s yesman-henchman till the end of the story. Of course, I loathed what Sunrise did to both Kira & Shinn’s characters. I’m not biased to either of them. They both got treated poorly. That said, what Sunrise did to Shinn (becoming bad guy’s yesman-henchman) somewhat made him into unproper protagonist IMO since during the last part of Destiny, he really lacks the agency to move on its own (always easily manipulated and depended on what Durandal & Rey said) until he’s broken. That doesn’t mean Kira and Athrun suddenly become the more proper protagonists compared to Shinn, no. What I’m trying to say is, by the end, Destiny has no proper protagonist. Not Shinn, not Kira, and not Athrun. Each one of them somehow became protagonist in some segments of the story they’re in, never becoming a true protagonist for the entire series.
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It can do both.

Let us look at the last two episodes. Episode 15 is a big battle, but it IS exploring Shinn's character isn't it? Him being goaded by Neo, him ignoring Athrun's orders, him rushing to save the slave labor, him ignoring all the death and suffering he is causing while trying to prevent more death and suffering.

Yeah, the whole episode was nothing but a big fight, but we ARE exploring Shinn's character, and his morality. And when Athrun calls him on some of it this episode, it DOES sink in. Those nice little flashbacks to him slaughtering people prove that point nicely.

A LOT of the nature of Shinn's personality and how he compares and contrasts to Athrun and Kira comes out of his battles. As does his moral fiber.

Just because there's shooting and pretty lights doesn't mean there is no subtext.
You know, I already had a long argument about this in the past, and it looks like Kaito-kid already answered it in my place (thanks, Kaito). So, sorry, but I’m not gonna waste any more of my time with this cyclic topic again. Have fun with Kaito.

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You mean the big scene at the end that shows everyone in big neon letters that Shinn is a good guy now?
Even if Shinn is a good guy at the end, what’s your point? Nobody is arguing that.

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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Also, how was the chat with Durandal expanded? I am genuinely asking because I don't remember it.
In Final Plus, they make the pacing of the scene when Kira entered the Messiah and speaking with Durandal slower than the original so that the scene can sink in better for the audience. Next, they add some necessary new scenes like Athrun entering Messiah with his Justice, Athrun avoiding the sentries, as well as some additional *gasp* flashbacks which also functioned to slow the pacing for Kira’s conversation with Gill. They even bothered to make Kira looks more noble by looking at Rey when he’s about to leave messiah (which heavily implied that Kira was about to offer Rey a lift to save him from the near-exploding Messiah) before Rey got called by Talia to die together will Gil. In the original ending, Kira just left Rey without batting an eye. Compare them for yourself if you don’t believe me.

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It's when he is willing to kill an INNOCENT
It looks like your idea of the entire series’ climax is different from mine, so let’s just agree to disagree.

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You and someone else have both made mention that Final Plus kind of negate your entire "Shinn wasn't part of the last scene" argument you seem to be using, but Final Plus shouldn't be used because it wasn't the original.

But here you have an original sentence that can be EASILY used against you, so you expand upon it and explain it better and expect us to use the revised, expanded version as gospel and ignore the original. Meanwhile taking the original ending as the one true ending and ignoring the newer, revised, expanded version of it.

Surely you see why I find this strange, no?
Wow, you really like putting words in my mouth aren’t you ? Let’s see:
  1. I never said nor implied Final Plus negate my “Shinn wasn't part of the last scene". Quote my post where I ever said that.
  2. I never said nor implied that “Final Plus shouldn't be used because it wasn't the original”. Quote my post where I ever said that.
  3. I never said nor implied that I want you to “use the revised, expanded version as gospel and ignore the original”. First, because it’s not a revision, to begin with. And second, it’s not an expansion because I merely explained it (for those who didn’t get it the first time around) that my overall comparison between Destiny and Hamlet in terms of quality is just a side-note I made.

I want to reply to your other points, but your tendency to interpret my comments in the wrong way has really turned me off. If you keep this up, I might as well ignore you from now on in place of a more healthy discussion with other members.
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Old 2013-07-23, 23:19   Link #8429
monster
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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Exactly. I didn't say it would take ZERO work, I said it wouldn't be a MAJOR change. It wouldn't. Write a good fight and you can have them escape just fine.
When I said a major rewrite, I meant as a whole, not just 1 battle.
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Don't need it.
Indeed, Orb doesn't need another mobile suit.
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And turn it into a three way battle? That sounds insane
Patrick Zala is insane.
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Why not? She's the Cagalli Yula Atha.
Her heritage doesn't mean a thing to Athrun.
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He wouldn't be sent anywhere but Orb because the story needs him to be at Orb. The question is whether or not we can get Athrun to Orb with a reasonable excuse. We know he will be at Orb because he HAS to be there.

This is fiction, remember?
This is fiction, and Athrun doesn't have to be at Orb at all.
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So which ones don't and why?
One example is Athrun joining Orb without Kira and without there being a major catalyst.
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There was plenty of doubt. Lacus calls him out on it when they meet.
Exactly, it took meeting Lacus for Athrun to face those questions.
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He had members of the council "detained" just for agreeing with Clyne in OTHER meetings and wanting to talk to Zala about the single biggest military loss in ZAFT history. This isn't a guy following due process here.
That was after Clyne had been implicated with the theft of the Freedom.
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We play up Clyne's anti war tactics, Zala finds some flimsy excuse to blame him for Spit Break (which, btw, he DID in the original. Freedom Theft has NOTHING to do with Alaska) and declares him a traitor.
Zala might've blamed Clyne for the loss at Alaska, but he couldn't actually move against him without the theft of the Freedom.
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They held them pretty damned well during that battle. Destroyed quite a few mobile suits too. And remember, originally, they weren't escaping alone. They ordered other ships to retreat too.

If you wanted, you could have a scene of the Archangel only surviving thanks to the other EA ships getting killed. Pile some guilt on top of the crew too, because the show likes to guilt their mains.

Again, this isn't unrealistic, or outrageous, it is simply not how it happened. It could have and no one would have cared.
They held up to a certain point, but as was shown, it takes only one mobile suit to get in a well-placed shot.

And the other ships sacrificing themselves for the Archangel would be unrealistic.
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Maybe now he's listening to Rau when Rau says how dangerous they are? Or maybe any one of the other half dozen excuses I listed? Or maybe he is sent to Orb for other reasons?

Are you saying you can think of ZERO logical reason why Patrick Zala, crazy, unhinged, kill everyone on Earth, shoot my own son Zala, would send someone to Orb?
I'm saying a kill-everyone-on-Earth-Zala wouldn't just stop at sending one mobile suit to observe. He would take the initiative and attack, if he cared at all about Orb.

Otherwise, his target is the EA/whole Earth, and Orb is irrelevant.
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What's unbelievable about Orb creating a new, more powerful mobile suit? They've already created the Gundams before it. Why not a new gen?
Because just a short while ago, they needed help with even their mass production mobile suits.
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Why not? I'm seriously asking, why wouldn't Athrun know Dearka is alive?
Because he didn't see Dearka surrendered.
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Oh hey, and how DID that meeting with Yzak go again?
That meeting with Yzak happened because Dearka knew the pilot of the Duel. He wouldn't know the pilot of the Justice, and they're less likely to meet in Orb as the Justice is flight-capable and the Buster isn't.
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If he joined Orb at the battle of Orb, then he'd be the TWO Ship Alliance when Lacus defect STILL. No one else seemed to question the Eternal coming to help, not like Kira helped them integrate there or anything.
That's a big IF, especially since Athrun is less likely to be at Orb.

And without the theft of the Freedom, Lacus might not even defect.
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Cagalli was running the show at that point, and she trusts Athrun. And they need all the help they can get. When Athrun comes back with a new battleship and a crew, no reason to turn that down.
You're jumping ahead again. Athrun is still not likely to join Orb, and you're already using him to bring Lacus.
Quote:
Again, stop thinking like Uatu and start thinking like a WRITER. The story bends to your will. Can you really not find a way to make this story work with minor changes?
A change in the story can work, but it would not be with minor changes.
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Nope
Good.
Quote:
degrading a protagonist into a yesman-henchman role
It might not be conventional, but the two roles (protagonist and subordinate) are not mutually exclusive. Beside, Shinn is not just a mere "yesman" even if he agreed with Durandal at the end.
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Old 2013-07-24, 03:11   Link #8430
Destined_Fate
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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
I understand what you're saying. The problem is that what you are saying has NOTHING to do with what I'M saying.

Fans. Would. Have. HATED IT.

Fans hate Destiny for a protagonist switch that went for a less popular to a more popular character that didn't actually happen. An ACTUAL protagonist dying and being replaced by his less popular antagonist would have pissed even more people off.

Fans. Would. Have. HATED IT. Because fans ALREADY hated it. And it didn't even actually happen.
The issue is that Athrun was actually built up than and very likeable.

Fans would have whined than accepted it since Athrun was there since SEED started and the fanbase liked him already. So after the initial whining, as all fanbases do, they would either leave the anime or accept Kira's demise and moved on to Athrun.

It's sorta like how Gin died in Bleach, fans were raging hard about that for awhile but later accepted it and moved on after their emotions settled. The same would have happened with Kira, especially since Athrun was already the Dual Main Character.
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Old 2013-07-24, 14:35   Link #8431
Gundamx
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
The issue is that Athrun was actually built up than and very likeable.

Fans would have whined than accepted it since Athrun was there since SEED started and the fanbase liked him already. So after the initial whining, as all fanbases do, they would either leave the anime or accept Kira's demise and moved on to Athrun.

It's sorta like how Gin died in Bleach, fans were raging hard about that for awhile but later accepted it and moved on after their emotions settled. The same would have happened with Kira, especially since Athrun was already the Dual Main Character.
Did you stop raging at Shin switch in destiny?
No? Though so...
don't underestimate fan rage
and killing + switch is worse than switch a lone
it like Kira fighting shin and killing him than becoming main characters
+
Gin was not main character in Bleach + since when did he die?

Last edited by Gundamx; 2013-07-24 at 14:49.
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Old 2013-07-24, 16:38   Link #8432
kaito-kid
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@Deadpool2000:


I don't really have a problem if you say that Shinn is one of the main characters. He obviously is and if we look at who got the most screen time and focus from the first episode to that last one in Destiny it's obviously Shinn, But the problem is if you say he is The protagonist of Destiny. I can't agree with that.

To bring it back to the current discussion, Kira is without a doubt the protagonist of SEED. What he does as a character and the way his is developed obviously drives the show. Even when he becomes slightly less important to the main plot in the last act of the story as Athrun and Lacus also get more focus, there are many sub-plots added where he plays a pivotal role. He can not be replaced in the 2nd half (what a stupid discussion btw) or at any point in the story without changing the framework of the show itself. The same thing can not be said about Shinn.

Let's take SEED as an example, try to draw a relationship chart for Kira in SEED and after that make one for Shinn is Destiny.. You'll see that Kira is in the center, connected to most of the primary and secondary characters and he'll also be the pivot and sometimes even the linchpin in a lot of important event.. Shinn's chart will look very different, he'll not be in the center and there will be less lines in his chart.. probably only a little more then Athrun.

I understand that Shinn has the most screen time and focus when compared to the other characters in Destiny. So yeah, you can say that he is the protagonist, I think that's a fair point. but when we look at his (non existing) character development or the limited impact he has on the main plot and a lot of the sub plots where he is absent, It does become questionable. That's my point.
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Old 2013-07-24, 16:47   Link #8433
Skye629
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Originally Posted by Gundamx View Post
Did you stop raging at Shin switch in destiny?
No? Though so...
don't underestimate fan rage
and killing + switch is worse than switch a lone
it like Kira fighting shin and killing him than becoming main characters
+
Gin was not main character in Bleach + since when did he die?
Off topic but Aizen killed him..............
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Old 2013-07-24, 17:01   Link #8434
monster
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Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
@Deadpool2000:


I don't really have a problem if you say that Shinn is one of the main characters. He obviously is and if we look at who got the most screen time and focus from the first episode to that last one in Destiny it's obviously Shinn, But the problem is if you say he is The protagonist of Destiny. I can't agree with that.

To bring it back to the current discussion, Kira is without a doubt the protagonist of SEED. What he does as a character and the way his is developed obviously drives the show. Even when he becomes slightly less important to the main plot in the last act of the story as Athrun and Lacus also get more focus, there are many sub-plots added where he plays a pivotal role. He can not be replaced in the 2nd half (what a stupid discussion btw) or at any point in the story without changing the framework of the show itself. The same thing can not be said about Shinn.

Let's take SEED as an example, try to draw a relationship chart for Kira in SEED and after that make one for Shinn is Destiny.. You'll see that Kira is in the center, connected to most of the primary and secondary characters and he'll also be the pivot and sometimes even the linchpin in a lot of important event.. Shinn's chart will look very different, he'll not be in the center and there will be less lines in his chart.. probably only a little more then Athrun.

I understand that Shinn has the most screen time and focus when compared to the other characters in Destiny. So yeah, you can say that he is the protagonist, I think that's a fair point. but when we look at his (non existing) character development or the limited impact he has on the main plot and a lot of the sub plots where he is absent, It does become questionable. That's my point.
Regardless of how clear Shinn was the protagonist, it is more questionable to say that any particular character has replaced him as a protagonist of the story, especially on the basis of one scene.

Also,

Spoiler for image:
Key:

Athrun Meyrin Stella Cagalli
Yuna Lunamaria
Kira Djibril Rey
Lacus Durandal Shinn

Ah, I forgot Neo, which would be connected to Stella, Shinn, and Murrue, which I also forgot.

I suppose Athrun could also be connected to Durandal and Meer, and Meer (again I forgot) be connected to Durandal and Lacus,

And Kira and Athrun are connected to Cagalli.

LOL, I should just redo it.

Here you go:
Spoiler for image:

Last edited by monster; 2013-07-24 at 17:15.
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Old 2013-07-24, 17:25   Link #8435
cyberdemon
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Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
Off topic but Aizen killed him..............
it was vague on if he had died or not
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Old 2013-07-24, 17:56   Link #8436
I Fail at Life
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I got to say. This has got to be one of the worst topics (regarding Destiny) to be dragged so far, kept alive so long (maybe purposely), spill into the prequel, way past the point where it should of been deaded. Does the next episode have to come out to break the monotony? This is just crazy.
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Old 2013-07-24, 22:43   Link #8437
The American Average
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^ ah don't be a stick in the mud, I'm having a lot of fun sitting on the side lines reading these crazy posts.
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Old 2013-07-25, 00:40   Link #8438
Skye629
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^ ah don't be a stick in the mud, I'm having a lot of fun sitting on the side lines reading these crazy posts.
I got lost a LOOONNNNGGG time ago XD
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Old 2013-07-25, 01:25   Link #8439
The American Average
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since a couple of people are rather bored with this conversation i found a couple of funny Seed/Destiny videos on youtube i bet you've probably have already seen them but what the heck

Spoiler for the cheesy video:
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Old 2013-07-25, 10:25   Link #8440
Washu-Chan
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Why can't the producers/Fukuda/Morosawa can't admit it and say that Athrun is the de facto main character of Destiny?

Out of the three supposed main characters, Athrun had the most screentime, and the TV Movies were told from his perspective. Also, the GSD: The Edge manga is an alternate retelling of GSD from Athrun's POV.
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