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Old 2013-08-11, 01:42   Link #8561
Rising Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Should be easy to prove then.
Already did.

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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Irrelevant. WHY he survived means nothing, only THAT he survived.

Indeed. He was MUCH closer to the epicenter of the explosion, received ACTUAL physical injuries and STILL didn't die from shockwaves.

Sounds to me that it is entirely possible for someone to be inside an exploding mobile suit and NOT die from the shockwaves, doesn't it?
On the contrary, why he survived factors a great deal into the topic at hand. Namely, retcons like these cause plotholes. These plotholes tend to invalidate their use as examples because for all intents and purposes, it shouldn't have happened, and the original writing was designed with the events in mind before the retcon.

As for the actual event, my hypothesis is that whatever major shockwaves that would've killed Waltfeld hit Aisha first, diminishing them as her body absorbed the kinetic impact, killing her first. Nevertheless, they should have, and for a while, did die in the explosion.

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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
We aren't talking about the torso surviving. We are talking about the shockwaves.

Remember, Kira and Shinn were caught in an explosion whose shockwave rocked the MINERVA off course. Neither took any physical damage.
The Impulse and the Freedom also had Phase Shift Armor at time of the explosion and its shockwaves, which negate kinetic force to a remarkable degree. Neither suit's cockpits detonated as well, so no internal explosions to harm the pilots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Extendeds are also more likely to survive physical traume than a Natural.
Not really. Extendeds' abilities focus on their mental abilities, rather than their physical capabilities. Better reflexes and cognitive abilities and such, but physically their bodies aren't anything any other person couldn't achieve with a rigorous training regimen.

Coordinators, on the other hand, have alterations that focus on mental and physical upgrading, as we've seen with Kira Yamato, Athrun Zala, and George Glenn.

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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Let me stop you right there. When arguing against doubt, let the word "can" be a warning sign. Same with "may" or "often" and other vague, unsure, non-guaranteed events.
Yes, "can" kill someone. Just like a heart attack "can" kill someone, or how a stroke "can" kill someone, or how a bullet wound "can" kill someone. And a lot of times, that "can" is because of medical treatment and luck.

I should not have to explain this. Anyone with a decent education will understand this, both through learning and through actual experiences they've witnessed or taken part in.

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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Yes, it IS possible for Kira to have killed her. It is ALSO possible for Shinn to have killed her. Or her time on the Minerva to have killed. Or any combination of the three. We. Don't. Know.
You're very good at your repetition skills, yes, I get that. Please refrain from repeating useless drivel when it does not apply to the debate. Stella had already recovered from her time aboard the Minerva, there was a sizeable difference in time, plus the advanced medical care of the future that they used on the Extendeds. Shinn's attacks did minor damage and no real shockwaves, it only cut open the cockpit and spread some shrapnel around that was negated by the heavily reinforced pilot suit she wore.

Kira's attack, however, caused the explosions in the cockpit which resulted in said shockwaves killing Stella. This is not a matter of "who dun it?" Kira killed Stella. The narrative reinforced this. It's not really up for debate.

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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
To prove your point you have to either a) prove it is GUARANTEED that someone would die from shockwaves of a mobile suit exploding. Which isn't even guaranteed in real life, let alone in CE with Andrew, Mu, Shinn, Kira, Athrun and Meyrin running around or b) that there is ZERO chance either Shinn's injuries or time spent on the Minerva could lead to her death.

Good luck.
Please refer to the above statements I have made. The story treated the event as Kira killing Stella. Frankly, that's all I need to win this debate. Why don't you try to provide some examples as to how, say, Shinn was responsible for whatever injuries caused Stella's death?

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Originally Posted by Washu-Chan View Post
You forgot that he also liked the performance of Waltfeld's VA (who also voiced Treize in Wing).
That's why I said "among" the reasons. I didn't say the ones I listed were all of them.
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Old 2013-08-11, 03:14   Link #8562
monster
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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
I am merely pointing out that the scene is vague on her cause of death. And personally, I think it's on purpose.
The story never bothered questioning whether Kira did indeed caused Stella's death, so whatever purpose there might be in arranging her death in such a way, I doubt it's to imply that Kira did not have a hand in killing Stella.

Beside, Kira's justification for killing Stella is pretty clear: She was a danger. More importantly, Shinn would've blamed Kira for her death regardless. So there would be no purpose in trying to imply that Kira didn't actually kill Stella, especially when this never became an issue.
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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Your argument is that the exploding Destroy is GUARANTEED to have killed Stella.

And yet, the exploding LaGOWE, Strike, Aegis, Strike again, Freedom and Gouf have all managed to somehow keep their pilots alive. And only the LaGOWE didn't have the pilot leave in one piece.
Those pilots would've died without medical treatments. Stella might've lived as well had anyone bothered to rush and treat her.

The other difference is that the Destroy's cockpit was damaged. (The strike was said to have an emergency hatch that covered the hole. If the Destroy also had such a system, Stella probably wasn't in the right state of mind to think of using it, and it might've been damaged as well.)
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Old 2013-08-11, 07:58   Link #8563
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Already did.
No, you just said it. Not the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
On the contrary, why he survived factors a great deal into the topic at hand. Namely, retcons like these cause plotholes.
A plot hole is an internal inconsisency. It has to be contradicted by another event. So many people survive the explosion of a mobile suit when we DON'T see the cockpit pierced and it is actually the NORM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
The Impulse and the Freedom also had Phase Shift Armor
Impulse did. Freedom did not. Kira shut off his power source before the shockwave hit him...

Notice this shockwave was many, many, MANY orders of magnitude greater than any shockwave Stella may or may not have had to deal with in her case.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Neither suit's cockpits detonated as well, so no internal explosions to harm the pilots.
No burns. Probably not Stella's problem either.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Not really. Extendeds' abilities focus on their mental abilities, rather than their physical capabilities. Better reflexes and cognitive abilities and such, but physically their bodies aren't anything any other person couldn't achieve with a rigorous training regimen.
Stella's physionomy being so different from Natural and Coordinator that the Minerva can't even figure out what is wrong with her, let alone how to heal her, is a major plot point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Yes, "can" kill someone. Just like a heart attack "can" kill someone, or how a stroke "can" kill someone, or how a bullet wound "can" kill someone. And a lot of times, that "can" is because of medical treatment and luck.
Like Stella's time on the Minerva CAN. Or internal bleeding as a result of Shinn's attacks CAN as well.

Notice, not did. CAN.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Stella had already recovered from her time aboard the Minerva, there was a sizeable difference in time, plus the advanced medical care of the future that they used on the Extendeds.
Treatment she was STILL receiving while she was taken to the base. Which is abnormal since Sting WASN'T.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Shinn's attacks did minor damage and no real shockwaves, it only cut open the cockpit and spread some shrapnel around that was negated by the heavily reinforced pilot suit she wore.
There are three unproven statements in that sentence. That would be "minor damage", "no real shockwaves" and "negated".

Hell, "heavily reinforced" isn't really proven either.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Kira's attack, however, caused the explosions in the cockpit which resulted in said shockwaves killing Stella.
Except for the fact the show never mentions a thing about shockwaves in any way, shape or form.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
The narrative reinforced this.
The narrative largely ignores the subject of WHAT killed her. It isn't the first time it does it either...

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Why don't you try to provide some examples as to how, say, Shinn was responsible for whatever injuries caused Stella's death?
Because my argument isn't "Shinn killed Stella." My argument is "The show is purposedly vague on who caused her death."

This is why I repeat myself. Because you keep not understanding what you're arguing against.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
I doubt it's to imply that Kira did not have a hand in killing Stella.
I never said the show was trying to imply Kira didn't do anything. I said the show was trying to imply that IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO KILLED HER.

It wouldn't be the first time. As far as the show is concerned it doesn't matter who killed Shinn's parents and it doesn't matter who ordered the hit on Lacus.

In all three events we are given plenty of circumstantial evidence in a certain direction and in all three events the REAL answer is completely irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Beside, Kira's justification for killing Stella is pretty clear: She was a danger.
Dissuade yourself of the idea that I said Kira would NEVER have killed Stella. It is pretty obvious that when he destroyed the Destroy he was willing to cause her death.

I am saying there is no certainty that he DID. So when someone lists off the number of people Kira killed, leaving her out of it isn't necessarily wrong.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
The other difference is that the Destroy's cockpit was damaged.
LaGOWE, Strike, Freedom and Gouf all had damaged cockpits... Freedom had much more powerful and dangerous shockwaves.

Last edited by Deadpool2000; 2013-08-11 at 08:12.
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Old 2013-08-11, 09:39   Link #8564
quagmire
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Deadpool, why are you trying so hard in trying to say there is no proof Kira killed Stella?

No one here is using Stella's death as a way to say, " Look at Jesus Yamato's hypocrisy! He killed someone when he states he doesn't want to kill people!" No one is trying to hate on Kira for killing Stella. We all know he will kill people if it is absolutely necessary. No one is attacking him for that.

I don't get why you're trying so hard in trying to say it isn't clear who killed Stella because Kira's beam saber didn't go through her body.....

The show doesn't have to put a sign on Stella's head/body saying, " Kira killed me" to show the viewer who killed her because people that have a brain can connect Kira stabbing fully charged cannon+ internal explosions= Stella killed by Kira. Or doesn't have to have a graphic showing Kira's kills....

Next you're going to argue Kira didn't kill Rau.... It was Genesis....

Last edited by quagmire; 2013-08-11 at 09:51.
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Old 2013-08-11, 11:01   Link #8565
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Yeah pretty much. Nobody's saying Kira was wrong for killing her. In fact Shinn wrong for prioritizing the saftey of one very dangerous individual and giving her special treatment because she set off his sister issues over the city she was blowing up.

But he pretty clearly dealt the finishing blow, even if Shinn helped early on. And Shinn acts as if Kira killed her, and Kira acts like he killed her.

So there's really no debate here. It's not like with Kira killing Shinn's family, which is irrelevant because Shinn didn't see it, and Shinn doesn't react in any way. Shinn clearly blames Kira for her death.
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Old 2013-08-11, 11:47   Link #8566
monster
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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
A plot hole is an internal inconsisency. It has to be contradicted by another event. So many people survive the explosion of a mobile suit when we DON'T see the cockpit pierced and it is actually the NORM.
Indeed. I'm glad someone else acknowledges that.
Quote:
I never said the show was trying to imply Kira didn't do anything. I said the show was trying to imply that IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO KILLED HER.

It wouldn't be the first time. As far as the show is concerned it doesn't matter who killed Shinn's parents and it doesn't matter who ordered the hit on Lacus.

In all three events we are given plenty of circumstantial evidence in a certain direction and in all three events the REAL answer is completely irrelevant.
There are some things to note about those events:

1. Regarding the death of Shinn's family, Shinn never knowingly confronted the people who directly caused the explosion that killed his family and he blamed Orb, and especially the Atthas, and not any particular pilot.

2. Regarding the attempted assassination on Lacus, while there could be several possible suspects to whoever ordered that mission, the only one affected in the story is Durandal, by giving Kira and company a reason not to trust him, especially with the fake Lacus.

3. Regarding Stella's death, while you might believe that it is inconclusive to say what/who killed Stella, the only one affected in the story, again, is Kira.

The point being, in each of the above cases, while there might not be hard evidence to point to the respective culprits, the story dictates that it is only in the first case where we see that it truly doesn't matter who killed Shinn's family because the point there is that Shinn blamed the Athhas/Orb/war in general. With the other two cases, we are given prime suspects and they both suffered the consequences without anything of substance to the contrary being offered. As such, even if it may not hold up in a court of law, it is enough to establish causation in the context of a fictional story.
Quote:
LaGOWE, Strike, Freedom and Gouf all had damaged cockpits... Freedom had much more powerful and dangerous shockwaves.
I don't know about the LaGOWE (and Aisha did die), but the Freedom and the Gouf did not have damaged cockpit at the level of the Destroy, and neither did the Strike actually, but as I said, the Strike was also said to have used an emergency hatch.
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Old 2013-08-11, 11:59   Link #8567
Rising Dragon
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He's just trying to wash blood off of Kira's hands, basically. This is the same guy who claimed that Kira's death wouldn't have affected the events of SEED whatsoever, so I'm not expecting much in the way of rationality here.

Deadpool2000, here's the thing: Kira killed Stella. There is nothing changing this simple fact. The story treated it as Kira having killed Stella and the consequences of what happened after the event treated it as Kira having killed Stella.

And for your information, Stella's physiology changes were chemical and hormonal related. Without knowing what drugs were used in her system and what devices were used, the Minerva's crew had no way of helping her. She was not changed at a genetic level, like any other Coordinator in the show.

ALSO for your information, Kira shut off the reactor after the explosion, it appears, and as such it still had Phase Shift armor active when the explosion hit. And even then, whatever shockwaves produced by the blast would've been absorbed my the Freedom, very much reducing the impact Kira would've felt. And if the explosion came up from behind the Impulse, the Impulse itself would've taken the brunt of the impact.

Stella wasn't burned because she was in a heavy-duty pilot suit, and pilot suits are typically designed for outer space usage, and since many mobile suits can perform atmospheric reentry, not to mention the pods and the like that perform atmospheric reentry, the pilot suit would've been able to handle the heat from the explosions. Kinetic impacts from shockwaves on the other hand are a different story entirely.

Shinn did not kill Stella. The Minerva did not kill Stella. Neo did not kill Stella.

Kira did. Kira killed Stella. Get. Over. It.

The reason the show did not mention shockwaves is because it didn't have to. A show doesn't require to spell out every single tiny detail from every single tiny action. People are supposed to be intelligent creatures, so this isn't hard to figure out for yourself.

You have a brain. Use it for once.
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Old 2013-08-11, 13:30   Link #8568
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Shinn didn't kill Stella.

Neo didn't kill Stella.

Kira didn't kill Stella.

Stella killed Stella.
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Old 2013-08-11, 13:31   Link #8569
Rising Dragon
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Washu, you are not helping.
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Old 2013-08-11, 13:33   Link #8570
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Can't you take a joke?

I just shudder to think whether the HD Remaster is gonna have Stella run dance into Kira's sword when she dies.
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Old 2013-08-11, 13:34   Link #8571
Rising Dragon
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I can, but the moderators won't. They tend to delete posts like the one you just made.
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Old 2013-08-11, 13:57   Link #8572
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For what it's worth, Shinn is the only one in the show that stated Kira is the one who killed her, no matter how biased it was. The thing is, the show didn't make any attempt to deny his statement. it's true that the show did not explicitly stated or give any hard evidence on who is the culprit, but the show didn't bother denying the accusation too.

From narrative perspective, "Stella have to be killed by Kira" for the story to develop (giving Shinn the strongest motivation for targeting Kira as his primary enemy). Without that premise, the story probably wouldn't go as what we have now.

Food of thought here, would he be able to beat Freedom if Kira wasn't the one who killed her ?

Durandal probably laughed this whole convenient event, too bad Shinn not only failed to kill him but the victim also came back stronger with his new toy
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Old 2013-08-11, 16:45   Link #8573
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Oh of course not. He only viewed Freedom a nuisance until Stella died. And even when he's training and claiming its only because Freedom is so strong so it makes a good practice opponent, he says outright he'll make Freedom pay for killing Stella as soon as Athrun steps out of the room. Had that not happened he'd have never have trained, and Freedom would have gotten out of Angel Down unscathed assuming Durandal ordered it at all (he almost certainly did because Rey told him of Shinn's hate on for Freedom and his recent training as everyone else was taken aback that he suddenly ordered an attack on AA after spending an whole episode declaring the Logos was their true enemy)

It's almost frustrating how well that went for Durandal (and how well basically everything went for Durandal for the whole damn war up until the finale when he finally started showing his true colors to the world). Kira kills Stella, and Stella was only there because of Logos. That makes her a perfect martyr for Durandal to use to trigger Shinn to attack anyone related to either of them, both of whom are the greatest obstacles in his plan. It also killed any chance of Shinn being swayed by the Clyne Faction, because they by association killed Stella. And at the end of the day, Stella, the only thing not under his control that Shinn had empathy for was eliminated, removing something that could have strayed Shinn from the path Durandal wanted. In effect Kira basically did Durandal's dirty work for him.

Granted in the end Angel Down while making Shinn look good, was pointless, and only made things worse for Zaft. It destroyed Freedom and forced AA to lie low for awhile, but Kira would have retired Freedom after Angel Down anyway in favor of his new SF, and he and AA had zero intentions of interfering with Angel Down anyway.

In fact it only served to cripple the Clyne Faction when Zaft actually needed them, as they could have stopped Djbril when he entered Orb before any battle broke out, by moblizing AA and Freedom and forcing him out at gunpoint, giving him to Zaft and saving them political strife with Orb and stopping Requiem (although THAT worked out to Durandal's favor as well). But instead they couldn't get AA repaired and SF from space until the battle had already started and Djbril had begun his escape, at which point a non violent solution was too late, and they'd obviously opt to prioritize Orb from falling under Zaft control.
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Old 2013-08-11, 16:50   Link #8574
Skye629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Washu-Chan View Post


Shinn didn't kill Stella.

Neo didn't kill Stella.

Kira didn't kill Stella.

Stella killed Stella.
C-C-C-C-C-COMBO BREEEEAKKKKEEERRRRR

XD


To actually contribute: During the Freedom/Impulse fight the Freedom also fell into the water, so that helped a ton in Kira surviving (though he would have died if Cagalli had not gone out to rescue him)
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Old 2013-08-11, 17:36   Link #8575
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
This is the same guy who claimed that Kira's death wouldn't have affected the events of SEED whatsoever
a) Not exactly what the conversation was about. You might want to scroll back and read what was posted (yes, even the big words) so you can understand.

b) Irrelevant. You may think me a fool if you'd like, that is your prerogative. But if a fool says the sky is blue, IT IS STILL BLUE.

Ad hominem is generally the last refuge of those grasping for straws. Try to argue the point instead.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Kira killed Stella.
Have you devolved to simple "Nah huh, you are wrong" arguments?

If it is so guaranteed, prove it. Don't say so, show so.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
The story treated it as Kira having killed Stella and the consequences of what happened after the event treated it as Kira having killed Stella.
SHINN acted as if Kira killed her.

Here's a fun exercise: Pretend that Shinn is the one who killed her. How does the story change?

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
She was not changed at a genetic level, like any other Coordinator in the show.
This is true. It has absolutely zero to do with the conversation at hand, but it is indeed true. Extendeds are not genetically altered humans. Good work.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
ALSO for your information, Kira shut off the reactor after the explosion, it appears
It doesn't appear. As he was being stabbed, we see him freak out, we see the Freedom's saber flickering (as if to show it low on power) and then we see him, unconscious, with his hands on the controls.

It would appear he shut it off AS the sword pierced the reactor, which would have turned the reactor off and cut off his power before the explosion hit.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Stella wasn't burned because she was in a heavy-duty pilot suit, and pilot suits are typically designed for outer space usage, and since many mobile suits can perform atmospheric reentry, not to mention the pods and the like that perform atmospheric reentry, the pilot suit would've been able to handle the heat from the explosions. Kinetic impacts from shockwaves on the other hand are a different story entirely.
This is a clever, well thought out, and internally consistant theory that would indeed explain a lot of what was observed.

It is also 100% conjecture with no basis other than your wanting to win this argument.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
The reason the show did not mention shockwaves is because it didn't have to.
No, the reason the show didn't mention shockwaves is that the show NEVER mentions shockwaves. No one has EVER died from shockwaves. Kira REPEATEDLY spares people by destroying large portions of non-phase shift mobile suits. The shockwave was NEVER a problem. EVER. Not a once. No one's even been hurt by them while inside a cockpit.

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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
No one here is using Stella's death as a way to say, " Look at Jesus Yamato's hypocrisy! He killed someone when he states he doesn't want to kill people!" No one is trying to hate on Kira for killing Stella. We all know he will kill people if it is absolutely necessary. No one is attacking him for that.
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Nobody's saying Kira was wrong for killing her.
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
He's just trying to wash blood off of Kira's hands, basically.
Well, explains why you are all so resistant to this.

Allow me to dissuade the three of you of this dillusion: I have made no mention of how this informs the viewer of Kira's morality. I haven't spoken of his honor, of his holiness, of his moral fiber nor the bismirching of ANY of it.

I made a very simple statement. Some of you have complained about how often I've repeated it, but considering how you keep arguing against statements I never made I feel that they bear repeating:

Quote:
The show is vague as to Stella's cause of death. Stella had three different sources of damage when she died, all three are ill defined. She could have theoretically survived any of the three, she could theoretically have been killed by any of the three. As it stands, who and what caused her death is unknown.
Those are the statements you are, theoretically, arguing against. Stop projecting.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
The point being, in each of the above cases, while there might not be hard evidence to point to the respective culprits, the story dictates that it is only in the first case where we see that it truly doesn't matter who killed Shinn's family because the point there is that Shinn blamed the Athhas/Orb/war in general. With the other two cases, we are given prime suspects and they both suffered the consequences without anything of substance to the contrary being offered.
Are they? What consequences ARE there?

Consider: Durandal orders the kill on Lacus. Consequence?

Kira suspects Durandal because they are coordinator special ops. He goes into hiding, distrusts Durandal's motives enough not to throw in with the Minerva, go searching for evidence and evnetually find out about the Destiny plan. They disagree with it, and when Durandal starts nuking people who disagree with it, they kick his ass.

Joe Schmoe, Crazy Stalker Extraodinare orders the kill on Lacus. Consequence?

Kira suspects Durandal because they are coordinator special ops. He goes into hiding, distrusts Durandal's motives enough not to throw in with the Minerva, go searching for evidence and evnetually find out about the Destiny plan. They disagree with it, and when Durandal starts nuking people who disagree with it, they kick his ass.

Kira killed Stella. Consequence?

Shinn blames Kira because he landed the last blow on the Destroy. He attacks and shoots him down during Operation Angel Down.

Asbestos Poisoning killed Stella. Consequence?

Shinn blames Kira because he landed the last blow on the Destroy. He attacks and shoots him down during Operation Angel Down.

Both events the "true culpirt" is inconsequential. Literally.

I would say that is the point of the two events. We get to compare and contrast the two characters and how differently they react to similar stimuli. We also get a nice message that sometimes, in the chaos of war, the truth isn't as important as how people react to the truth. Which ties in nicely into how the war got started in the first place (Zala loyalists drop Junius Seven on Earth and they blade all coordinators for it).

I would argue the show isn't just vague, it is PURPOSEDLY vague. It was making a point. Several actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
I don't know about the LaGOWE (and Aisha did die), but the Freedom and the Gouf did not have damaged cockpit at the level of the Destroy, and neither did the Strike actually, but as I said, the Strike was also said to have used an emergency hatch.
I dunno about that. Both mobile suits were pierce in the stomach (not the chest), which is a LOT closer to the cockpit. All three passengers took visible, physical damage from the explosion (granted, Kira just bled a little. Stella didn't even do that!). Their cockpits were smaller too. If we're going by shockwave theory, the enclosed space would be WORSE for them than the open cockpit Stella had to deal with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirayuki View Post
From narrative perspective, "Stella have to be killed by Kira" for the story to develop (giving Shinn the strongest motivation for targeting Kira as his primary enemy). Without that premise, the story probably wouldn't go as what we have now.
As said above, from a thematic stand point all we need is for Shinn to BLAME Kira. Kira does not actually need to be the cause, he just needs to a possible cause. Actually, by having Shinn swear revenge on a perceived slight instead of a real one, we are reinforcing the theme of patience versus impulsiveness even more.

We are also undermining the "revenge brings power" trope that so strongly contradicts one of the major themes of the CE universe...
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Old 2013-08-11, 18:31   Link #8576
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
a) Not exactly what the conversation was about. You might want to scroll back and read what was posted (yes, even the big words) so you can understand.

b) Irrelevant. You may think me a fool if you'd like, that is your prerogative. But if a fool says the sky is blue, IT IS STILL BLUE.

Ad hominem is generally the last refuge of those grasping for straws. Try to argue the point instead.
All right, let's state the facts here:

Broken cockpit on the Destroy.
Destroy powering up it's triple beam-cannons
Kira stabbing said beam cannons
HUGE EXPLOSIONS INCLUDING DESTROY FALLING OVER AND EXPLODING SOME MORE
Stella being in bad shape.

1 + 1 + 1 = ?

Kira killing, Stella dying
Shinn hurtin', hear him crying
Can you practice what you preach
Or would you turn the other cheek?

Father father father father help us
Send some guidance from above
'Cause people got me, got me questioning
Where is the love
Where is the love
Where is the love
Where is the love the love the love

and so on.
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Have you devolved to simple "Nah huh, you are wrong" arguments?

If it is so guaranteed, prove it. Don't say so, show so.
Well, why wouldn't he? He is right, you are wrong. What's shown in the show supports his argument, not yours.

Quote:
SHINN acted as if Kira killed her.
SHINN was there when Kira made the finishing blow, unless you want to blame EA engineer's for making something randomly explode inside the cockpit that was unrelated to the beam sabers stuck in Destroy's Beam cannons.

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Here's a fun exercise: Pretend that Shinn is the one who killed her. How does the story change?
The worst case of Schizophrenia Gundam would've ever seen, Shinn vs Shinn in the bedroom.

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It doesn't appear. As he was being stabbed, we see him freak out, we see the Freedom's saber flickering (as if to show it low on power) and then we see him, unconscious, with his hands on the controls.

It would appear he shut it off AS the sword pierced the reactor, which would have turned the reactor off and cut off his power before the explosion hit.
Would you have preferred him with a pair of sunglasses and a cheesy oneliner?

" i guess the Neutron jammer-canceller... "
#Put on sunglasses
" is cancelled "

to be on topic:

As you said, it seems like he shut off the NJC right as he got stabbed by the AS-sword, or the NJC got hit and the beam saber no longer got enough power.
Either way, he somehow turned it off, that much is confirmed.
One can always argue that it was either the NJC that said boom, or the Minerva's Tannhauser that made the blast, in the end, we will never know, it's pretty irrelevant since Kira survived it anyhow.
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No, the reason the show didn't mention shockwaves is that the show NEVER mentions shockwaves. No one has EVER died from shockwaves. Kira REPEATEDLY spares people by destroying large portions of non-phase shift mobile suits. The shockwave was NEVER a problem. EVER. Not a once. No one's even been hurt by them while inside a cockpit.
Random pilot getting hit by cyclops, he died from shockwaves, Poor thing.

Also, The cockpits have protection, one can always point out that the magnitude of three giant beam cannons exploding over your head when your cockpit is breached is a entirely different thing than having your mobile suits head/arm shot off.

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Well, explains why you are all so resistant to this.

Allow me to dissuade the three of you of this dillusion: I have made no mention of how this informs the viewer of Kira's morality. I haven't spoken of his honor, of his holiness, of his moral fiber nor the bismirching of ANY of it.

I made a very simple statement. Some of you have complained about how often I've repeated it, but considering how you keep arguing against statements I never made I feel that they bear repeating:
That's even worse, it's like you are throwing rocks in a glasshouse on purpose.

Quote:
Consider: Durandal orders the kill on Lacus. Consequence?
We find out Durandal is evil a few episodes earlier!

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Kira suspects Durandal because they are coordinator special ops. He goes into hiding, distrusts Durandal's motives enough not to throw in with the Minerva, go searching for evidence and evnetually find out about the Destiny plan. They disagree with it, and when Durandal starts nuking people who disagree with it, they kick his ass.
Yup, if he had proof, he could've convinced Athrun to leave Zaft earlier, best case scenario: Shinn/Luna comes with him

Quote:
Joe Schmoe, Crazy Stalker Extraodinare orders the kill on Lacus. Consequence?
None, Joe Schmoe can't afford top-notch mobile suit with top-notch special ops coordinators

Quote:
Kira killed Stella. Consequence?

Shinn blames Kira because he landed the last blow on the Destroy. He attacks and shoots him down during Operation Angel Down.

Asbestos Poisoning killed Stella. Consequence?

Shinn blames Kira because he landed the last blow on the Destroy. He attacks and shoots him down during Operation Angel Down.

Both events the "true culpirt" is inconsequential. Literally.
We don't know how Destiny would've played out if Shinn didn't blame Kira, it's impossible to point out seeing how it never happened.

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As said above, from a thematic stand point all we need is for Shinn to BLAME Kira. Kira does not actually need to be the cause, he just needs to a possible cause. Actually, by having Shinn swear revenge on a perceived slight instead of a real one, we are reinforcing the theme of patience versus impulsiveness even more.

We are also undermining the "revenge brings power" trope that so strongly contradicts one of the major themes of the CE universe...
Of course, but, he was right to blame Kira, since, you know, Kira stabbed his beam sabers into Destroy and made it blow up.
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Old 2013-08-11, 18:31   Link #8577
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Are they? What consequences ARE there?

Consider: Durandal orders the kill on Lacus. Consequence?

Kira suspects Durandal because they are coordinator special ops. He goes into hiding, distrusts Durandal's motives enough not to throw in with the Minerva, go searching for evidence and evnetually find out about the Destiny plan. They disagree with it, and when Durandal starts nuking people who disagree with it, they kick his ass.

Joe Schmoe, Crazy Stalker Extraodinare orders the kill on Lacus. Consequence?

Kira suspects Durandal because they are coordinator special ops. He goes into hiding, distrusts Durandal's motives enough not to throw in with the Minerva, go searching for evidence and evnetually find out about the Destiny plan. They disagree with it, and when Durandal starts nuking people who disagree with it, they kick his ass.
There you go. In both cases, Durandal is the prime suspect. That's the consequence. And since "Joe Schmoe, Crazy Stalker Extraodinare" was never shown to exist, we can safely ignore the scenario with him.
Quote:
Kira killed Stella. Consequence?

Shinn blames Kira because he landed the last blow on the Destroy. He attacks and shoots him down during Operation Angel Down.

Asbestos Poisoning killed Stella. Consequence?

Shinn blames Kira because he landed the last blow on the Destroy. He attacks and shoots him down during Operation Angel Down.

Both events the "true culpirt" is inconsequential. Literally.
But in both events, there's one scenario that requires the audience to assume there is a "Joe Schmoe/Asbestos Poisoning" and there's one scenario that follows the story with Durandal and Kira playing an active part in their respective events.

Just because there is no absolute certainty either way doesn't mean the two scenarios in each event is of equal probability.
Quote:
I would say that is the point of the two events. We get to compare and contrast the two characters and how differently they react to similar stimuli. We also get a nice message that sometimes, in the chaos of war, the truth isn't as important as how people react to the truth. Which ties in nicely into how the war got started in the first place (Zala loyalists drop Junius Seven on Earth and they blade all coordinators for it).

I would argue the show isn't just vague, it is PURPOSEDLY vague. It was making a point. Several actually.
That doesn't really require ambiguity in the part of Stella's cause of death. In fact, having Kira killing Stella still preserves the truth that Stella needed to be stopped and it shows us how Shinn reacts to that truth.
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I dunno about that. Both mobile suits were pierce in the stomach (not the chest), which is a LOT closer to the cockpit. All three passengers took visible, physical damage from the explosion (granted, Kira just bled a little. Stella didn't even do that!). Their cockpits were smaller too. If we're going by shockwave theory, the enclosed space would be WORSE for them than the open cockpit Stella had to deal with
While the Freedom and the Gouf were stabbed near their cockpits, the cockpits themselves were intact when those stabbings happened. The Destroy's cockpit was damaged with the Impulse's first strike and then the Freedom fired railgun shots right near the opening of the damaged cockpit, further weakening it. Then you have that last explosion and, by then, Stella did not have an intact cockpit to protect her.
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Old 2013-08-11, 19:18   Link #8578
Kirayuki
蒼の深淵
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
As said above, from a thematic stand point all we need is for Shinn to BLAME Kira. Kira does not actually need to be the cause, he just needs to a possible cause. Actually, by having Shinn swear revenge on a perceived slight instead of a real one, we are reinforcing the theme of patience versus impulsiveness even more.
But the thing is nobody blamed Shinn for her death, and there is no one denying his accusation of Kira. It doesn't matter if he is really the killer or not, audiences are free to "believe" that Kira is the one who caused her death from what Shinn stated and they aren't wrong. In fact Kira is one of the possible causes after all, but looking at the one who deals the biggest injury to her, Kira got the short end of the stick.

In short, the narration didn't deny that Kira is the main cause. I believe because it is not a big deal in the first place, and the show is fine with people perceiving thing that "Kira pulled the trigger".
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Old 2013-08-11, 19:27   Link #8579
Aquaman OS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
It's worth noting Kira himself realizes he killed Stella. He pulls back after Destroy collapses with a sad "What a tragic waste of life" expression afterwards. And depending on how long he hovered there might have even seen Shinn pull her out.

So if even Kira himself thinks he killed her, then for all intents an purposes he killed her. Arguing exactly who's attack did the fatal damage is just arguing semantics.
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Old 2013-08-11, 22:16   Link #8580
cyberdemon
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
as a kira and freedom fan I have to say Kira DID kill her and was perfectly justified in doing so. There were simply too many lives on the line to take his time and let her fire that canon. Shinn's irrational in thinking that there was any other choice. Life and death can require only a single moment's choice. You can't just wait as a canon is about to fire so a guy can convince his crush not to do so when it will go off in only a second.
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