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Old 2013-08-12, 12:58   Link #8601
Znozzy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post

Might? The wind blowing past, the ship tilting and moving off camera is a MIGHT?
Yes, if you want to call something vague, that entire scene is vague regarding what caused the huge explosion, the Tannhauser blast, the Freedom's reactor going critical (Which wouldn't have been that big of a boom either way, a nuclear reactor doesn't work like a nuclear bomb) Or if it's one of the Arch Angel's engines being detonated.

Quote:
While Stella didn't have a SCRATCH on her. She actually had, thanks to the magic of animation, fewer wounds on her AFTER the explosion than she did before...
Yeah, she didn't have her helm on her either, one can argue Shinn took it off. What is your point? She still died.

Quote:
None of which proves that THIS explosion killed Stella.
Yes, it does, she died shortly after, how did you miss that? internal bleeding and shock trauma.

Also, every other character you brought up are Coordinators, they have enhanced bodies.

Grunt's are left blank, none of them are ever shown being shot down or dying after Kira disables them, it's silly to even bring that up.

Quote:
It's hillarious how you keep bringing up unrelated scenes as if they have any bearing here and aren't even equivalent.
It's hilarious how you keep trying to convince everyone here that Stella's cause of death is vague when you clearly don't bring any proof to the table except your own opinion.

Once again:

Kira finishing the Destroy caused Stella's death due to the chain-explosions caused by the Beam cannons being stabbed during their charge-up sequence.

If you want to proove the show wrong, provide proof, so far you've only brought your own opinion to the table, no facts at all.
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Old 2013-08-12, 13:18   Link #8602
Deadpool2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirayuki View Post
Nobody denied his accusation.
Which only proves the show doesn't CARE who did it.

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Originally Posted by Kirayuki View Post
And he was the one observing the incident in close vicinity.
No closer than WE were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirayuki View Post
And the one who planned and implemented the RetCon are those two.
And until the RetCon airs, it will remain vague.

They CAN change it, but not at will. What they CAN do is say that they intended it to be clear. That, they can do more or less at will. It won't actually BE clear until it airs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
You don't like your ridiculous argument used against you? Who'd've thought.

Are you done trying to wash the blood off Kira's hands? Because the more this goes on, the more it becomes apparent. You don't like anything negative being applied to him even if it canonically happens, and it's gotten to the point that you're arguing about the most trivial things to try and prove it.
False equivalency, strawmanning, ad hominem... Are you just going down the list of argumentative fallacies on purpose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Yes, if you want to call something vague, that entire scene is vague regarding what caused the huge explosion, the Tannhauser blast, the Freedom's reactor going critical (Which wouldn't have been that big of a boom either way, a nuclear reactor doesn't work like a nuclear bomb) Or if it's one of the Arch Angel's engines being detonated.
Yes, the animation isn't super clear, although someone showed a picture of the whole Tanhausser thing that does help.

Still, how does proving that something else is vague hurt my argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Yeah, she didn't have her helm on her either, one can argue Shinn took it off. What is your point? She still died.
Yes, we know she died.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Yes, it does, she died shortly after
So if someone stubs his toe right before dying then he MUST HAVE died of a stubbed toe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
internal bleeding and shock trauma.
Internal bleeding caused by WHAT?

Internal bleeding can kill in 10 minutes or 10 hours. She physical damage from three different events, not counting her own Extended physionomy breaking down and being in an unknown state of repair.

She died from internal bleeding is a fair assessment. What caused it is an unknown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Also, every other character you brought up are Coordinators, they have enhanced bodies.
As do Extended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Grunt's are left blank, none of them are ever shown being shot down or dying after Kira disables them, it's silly to even bring that up.
The show treats blowing up mobile suits without hitting a cockpit as "sparing the life of the pilot." It is absolutely relevant to the discussion "is it possible for someone to survive the destruction of their mobile suit"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
It's hilarious how you keep trying to convince everyone here that Stella's cause of death is vague when you clearly don't bring any proof to the table except your own opinion.
I'm not sure you understand the meaning of the word vague.

All I have to do to prove something is vague is to prove that it a) isn't 100% guaranteed to be caused by any factor AND b) could reasonably be believed to have been caused by another factor.

Stella COULD have died from injuries received when Shinn sliced the cockpit and shot shrapnel all over her body. Stella COULD have never fully recovered from her time on the Minerva (since Sting WALKED into the base while she was still in the machine). Stella COULD survive the explosion of a mobile suit while in its cockpit.

All three of these are possible. Not guarantees, but I am not arguing guarantees, I am arguing it is VAGUE.

To prove me wrong you'd have to do the opposite. Prove that Stella could NOT under any circumstances have died from her other wounds AND that she could NOT under any circumstances survive the explosion of a mobile suit while in its cockpit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirayuki View Post
The characters are controlled by those two I mentioned above. So his word is the same as those two if no one try to deny.
Not quite. You have no idea what their intentions were. Characters are wrong all the time.

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Originally Posted by Kirayuki View Post
And what audience ? Everybody here said the same thing excluding you.
Number of people agreeing does not an argument make. Just not how the world works.
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Old 2013-08-12, 13:20   Link #8603
Aquaman OS
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Why are you making such a big deal about this?
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Old 2013-08-12, 13:23   Link #8604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Actually, the only two characters I can't think of a clear cut, no doubt killer is Stella and DURANDAL.


Really now, and here I thought it was pretty dang clear that Rey was the one who shot Durandal. Go figure I most not have been thinking straight all these years.

Seriously Deadpool I get the feeling you'd say a question mark is "vague" in 1+?=2 because there isn't enough hard evidence to prove what number ? represents.
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Old 2013-08-12, 13:29   Link #8605
Deadpool2000
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
Really now, and here I thought it was pretty dang clear that Rey was the one who shot Durandal. Go figure I most not have been thinking straight all these years.
He got shot by Rey, then a big giant ass boulder fell... Either on him, or just in front and obstructed our view of him.

Rey being willing to kill Durandal matters to the plot, but same goes Kira. Hence them both getting the blame (Kira damaged the Messiah, so if the debris killed him, it's Kira's fault).

Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
Seriously Deadpool I get the feeling you'd say a question mark is "vague" in 1+?=2 because there isn't enough hard evidence to prove what number ? represents.
It's more of a X + Y + Z = 10. And any of those numbers can be zero or ten.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Why are you making such a big deal about this?
I'm not.

Someone listed the number of people killed by Kira, someone else said he'd forgotten Stella, I said "To be fair, that one is kinda vague." and everyone decided that it was suddenly the most certain, guaranteed event in all of Gundam...
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Old 2013-08-12, 13:41   Link #8606
Rising Dragon
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Well, that's what happens when you say something that isn't true. People tend to correct you.
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Old 2013-08-12, 13:43   Link #8607
Znozzy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Yes, the animation isn't super clear, although someone showed a picture of the whole Tanhausser thing that does help.

Still, how does proving that something else is vague hurt my argument?
That one being me.

Your argument is that what caused her death was vague, we are telling you it isn't vague, noone else sees it as vague, only you. Either you missed key points in the episode or you are flat out too stubborn to admit you are wrong regarding this matter.

Quote:
Yes, we know she died.
Yes, the rest of us also know how she died aswell.

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So if someone stubs his toe right before dying then he MUST HAVE died of a stubbed toe?
Irrelevant, you can't compare several point-blank explosions in her face and her giant mobile suit getting trashed from chain explosions to a stubbed toe.

i understand you want to bring up examples to strenghten your argument, but that one had quite the opposite effect.

Quote:
Internal bleeding caused by WHAT?
SEVERAL EXPLOSIONS RIGHT IN HER FACE, ABOVE HER AND BEHIND HER CAUSED BY TWO BEAM SABERS BEING SHOVED IN HER BEAM CANNONS WHILE THEY CHARGED UP

Quote:
Internal bleeding can kill in 10 minutes or 10 hours. She physical damage from three different events, not counting her own Extended physionomy breaking down and being in an unknown state of repair.
Yes, internal bleeding killed her right when she was in Shinn's arms. The cause is Kira shoving two beam sabers into her Beam cannons and having her Mobile suit exploding all around her.

Her Extended physionomy had nothing to do with it, they used drugs and other means to enhance their soldiers, they didn't modify her body like they modified Cyber Newtypes in UC, for example.

Quote:
She died from internal bleeding is a fair assessment. What caused it is an unknown.
No, it's not.

Quote:
As do Extended.
Their bodies are purely human, they are Indoctrinated from a young age, mentally manipulated and pumped full of drugs, nothing else.

Quote:
The show treats blowing up mobile suits without hitting a cockpit as "sparing the life of the pilot." It is absolutely relevant to the discussion "is it possible for someone to survive the destruction of their mobile suit"?
Now you are just being silly, getting an arm shot off isn't destroying the mobile suit, it's disabling it, same with destroying the main camera.

Slashing off every limb like Kira did against Athrun is destroying the mobile suit, but sparing the pilots life.


Quote:
I'm not sure you understand the meaning of the word vague.
I'm not sure you even know what you are talking about.

Quote:
All I have to do to prove something is vague is to prove that it a) isn't 100% guaranteed to be caused by any factor AND b) could reasonably be believed to have been caused by another factor.
a) you sure failed that one.
b) you sure failed that one too.

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Stella COULD have died from injuries received when Shinn sliced the cockpit and shot shrapnel all over her body.
No, she was shown to be fine after that, scared? yes. The pilot suit took most of the shrapnel.

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Stella COULD have never fully recovered from her time on the Minerva (since Sting WALKED into the base while she was still in the machine).
Yeah, sure. But then Kira didn't entirely recover from his battle with Rau at the end of SEED, so that's why he lost against Shinn in episode 34.


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Stella COULD survive the explosion of a mobile suit while in its cockpit.
Yes, but she didn't, the show makes it pretty clear seeing how she DIES moments after in Shinn's

Quote:
All three of these are possible. Not guarantees, but I am not arguing guarantees, I am arguing it is VAGUE.
No, you are stating it's vague without any evidence to back up your claim.

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To prove me wrong you'd have to do the opposite. Prove that Stella could NOT under any circumstances have died from her other wounds AND that she could NOT under any circumstances survive the explosion of a mobile suit while in its cockpit.
No, i don't need to prove anything since you are the one trying to disprove the actual show here.

One does not bring up a theory and states that it's correct until proven otherwise, You need to have solid proof backing up your claims, which in your case, you do not have.


Quote:
Number of people agreeing does not an argument make. Just not how the world works.
One person saying he saw Bigfoot doesn't make it the truth.
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Old 2013-08-12, 14:14   Link #8608
Deadpool2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Well, that's what happens when you say something that isn't true. People tend to correct you.
I know. That's why I'm arguing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Your argument is that what caused her death was vague, we are telling you it isn't vague,
And there in lies your problem. You are telling. Just saying the same thing over and over again and not address the discussion in any manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Irrelevant, you can't compare several point-blank explosions in her face and her giant mobile suit getting trashed from chain explosions to a stubbed toe.
The RELEVANT part is that it is possible for someone to receive a fatal wound, then receive a non fatal wound, and then die afterwards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
SEVERAL EXPLOSIONS RIGHT IN HER FACE, ABOVE HER AND BEHIND HER CAUSED BY TWO BEAM SABERS BEING SHOVED IN HER BEAM CANNONS WHILE THEY CHARGED UP
Which is surviveable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Yes, internal bleeding killed her right when she was in Shinn's arms. The cause is Kira shoving two beam sabers into her Beam cannons and having her Mobile suit exploding all around her.
Repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't make it true. Just because one follows the other does not mean one caused the other.

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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Her Extended physionomy had nothing to do with it, they used drugs and other means to enhance their soldiers,
And what do you think those drugs DO?

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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Now you are just being silly, getting an arm shot off isn't destroying the mobile suit, it's disabling it, same with destroying the main camera.
Or destroying the main cannon...

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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
a) you sure failed that one.
b) you sure failed that one too.
Ahhh, intelligent discourse, how you are missed...

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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
No, she was shown to be fine after that
Because internal damage is so clearly visible from the outside.

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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Yeah, sure. But then Kira didn't entirely recover from his battle with Rau at the end of SEED, so that's why he lost against Shinn in episode 34.
As evidenced by all that time he spent in med bay..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Yes, but she didn't, the show makes it pretty clear seeing how she DIES moments after in Shinn's
When one dies does not prove WHAT one dies OF.

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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
One does not bring up a theory and states that it's correct until proven otherwise, You need to have solid proof backing up your claims, which in your case, you do not have.
This isn't a theory. It is entirely possible within the confines of the reality of the show for someone to survive the exploding Destroy. This isn't a guess, a theory, a belief nor an opinion. This is simple and pure fact.

I've already provided extended reasoning as to why (ie other people surviving worse damage). Hell Mu alone blows the whole idea out of the water.

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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
One person saying he saw Bigfoot doesn't make it the truth.
Nor does 7 billion.
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Old 2013-08-12, 14:18   Link #8609
Rising Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
I know. That's why I'm arguing.
So you admit to deliberately arguing a lie as a proven fact just for the hell of it.
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Old 2013-08-12, 14:33   Link #8610
Deadpool2000
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
So you admit to deliberately arguing a lie as a proven fact just for the hell of it.
http://www.scholastic.com/parents/re...-comprehension
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Old 2013-08-12, 14:40   Link #8611
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Linking unneeded and unassociated materials is rather pointless and a terrible way to defuse the situation. The fact of the matter is, you're wrong about Stella. And everyone corrected you. And you admitted to continue arguing, so essentially you know you're arguing a falsehood as truth.
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Old 2013-08-12, 14:41   Link #8612
Znozzy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
I know. That's why I'm arguing.



And there in lies your problem. You are telling. Just saying the same thing over and over again and not address the discussion in any manner.
There is no discussion, you are basing this entire thing on your own opinion of Stella's death being vague, when it clearly isnt.


Quote:
The RELEVANT part is that it is possible for someone to receive a fatal wound, then receive a non fatal wound, and then die afterwards.
Yes, of course, did that happen in this case? No.

Quote:
Which is surviveable.
Obviously not, she died shortly after, remember?

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Repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't make it true. Just because one follows the other does not mean one caused the other.
Yeah, you saying it's vague when it clearly isn't doesn't make it true the fifth or tenth time you repeat it.

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And what do you think those drugs DO?
Enhance her performance close to/onpar with a Coordinator.

Quote:
Or destroying the main cannon...
Getting a arm/head blown off a mobile suit is no big deal, the damage isn't big and it doesn't cause chain explosions in the cockpit like it clearly did here.

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Ahhh, intelligent discourse, how you are missed...
Childish behaviour.

Quote:
Because internal damage is so clearly visible from the outside.
No, it's not, that's the entire point.

Quote:
As evidenced by all that time he spent in med bay..?
Are you a wizard?

Clearly, since we don't see Kira move around alot by the time we see him in Destiny the first couple of times, he must still be recovering from his battle with Rau!

right? right?

Quote:
When one dies does not prove WHAT one dies OF.
Stella clearly died as a result from explosions in her face.

Quote:
This isn't a theory. It is entirely possible within the confines of the reality of the show for someone to survive the exploding Destroy. This isn't a guess, a theory, a belief nor an opinion. This is simple and pure fact.
And again, No, that is your theory that you've based off your opinion on what happened in that episode, you misunderstood something, and now we are here trying to tell you that it isn't vague, you clearly don't know when you stand corrected, it's sad to see you keep trying to justify your own theory when it's clearly wrong, as once again, proved by the show itself and Stella's death.

Quote:
I've already provided extended reasoning as to why (ie other people surviving worse damage). Hell Mu alone blows the whole idea out of the water.
Retcon'd deaths:
Mwu
Andrew

Retcon'd survivals (Aka Strike's Hatch):
Kira

Pure luck:
Athrun (Gouf, Aegis incident)
Kira's disabling skills:
Athrun (Savior incident)
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Old 2013-08-12, 14:46   Link #8613
quagmire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post

Retcon'd deaths:
Mwu
Andrew

Retcon'd survivals (Aka Strike's Hatch):
Kira

Pure luck:
Athrun (Gouf, Aegis incident)
Kira's disabling skills:
Athrun (Savior incident)
Wait, Kira was supposed to die in the Aegis vs Strike battle?

I know the original plan was for Kira to die vs Rau, but the writers changed their minds.
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Old 2013-08-12, 14:52   Link #8614
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
Wait, Kira was supposed to die in the Aegis vs Strike battle?

I know the original plan was for Kira to die vs Rau, but the writers changed their minds.
Oh no, i meant it as in " there is no way he got out of that aliv-why the fuck is he at PLANT with lacus? "

the reason for his survival was given in a side-story manga.
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Old 2013-08-12, 14:57   Link #8615
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Oh no, i meant it as in " there is no way he got out of that aliv-why the fuck is he at PLANT with lacus? "

the reason for his survival was given in a side-story manga.
Yeah I know Lowe found him and brought him to the reverend.
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Old 2013-08-12, 15:00   Link #8616
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Originally Posted by Kirayuki View Post
From narrative perspective, "Stella have to be killed by Kira" for the story to develop (giving Shinn the strongest motivation for targeting Kira as his primary enemy). Without that premise, the story probably wouldn't go as what we have now.
Actually, the only thing that needs to happen is Shinn needs to believe it was Kira that killed her. Personally, I think it would be really awesome and tragic if Shinn were the one that dealt the mortal blow, but he makes the natural assumption that the one that destroyed the suit is the one that killed the pilot. Also goes hand in hand with how blind with rage he tended to be. Filled with grief and anger and hatred, he swears revenge without even considering other possibilities, let alone attempting to ascertain the truth.

It's simply better story telling.

P.S. And of course, you can't have it be revealed that it was Shinn that killed her. That would burst his bubble and take all of the fight right out of him, which under the right circumstances could be pretty cool, but not in a series where there's literally half a dozen characters waiting in the wings to take over his role for him.
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Old 2013-08-12, 16:23   Link #8617
Deadpool2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Yes, of course, did that happen in this case? No.
It MAY have.

You can't prove it didn't.


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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Obviously not, she died shortly after, remember?
We covered this. It is possible to receive a fatal wound, followed by a non fatal wound, followed by death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Enhance her performance close to/onpar with a Coordinator.
The doctor describes as "I have no idea how her body functions."

He physionomy isn't Natural.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Getting a arm/head blown off a mobile suit is no big deal, the damage isn't big and it doesn't cause chain explosions in the cockpit like it clearly did here.
But we've seen people survive explosions in the cockpit before. Shit Stella herself survived the FIRST explosion in her cockpit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
No, it's not, that's the entire point.
Which means the internal damage that DID in fact killed her did not NECESSARILY come from the last hit she took. It could have come from Shinn's attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Are you a wizard?

Clearly, since we don't see Kira move around alot by the time we see him in Destiny the first couple of times, he must still be recovering from his battle with Rau!

right? right?
False equivalency. I am saying since we didn't see it, it didn't happen. You are saying since we didn't see it, it DID happen.

Cute try, but complete opposites.

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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Stella clearly died as a result from explosions in her face.
Nah huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
you misunderstood something
There is nothing to misunderstand because there is nothing to understand. There is no evidence of any kind.

This isn't a matter of misinterpretting events. This is a matter of your trying to interpret events that didn't happen. Let us see which of these facts are untrue:

1) a. Stella was dying on the Minerva.
b. Stella wasn't fully healed when they arrived on the base.

2) a. Shinn physically hurt Stella.
b. Internal damage is invisible and can kill up to 10 hours later.

3) a. The damage to the Destroy is surviveable.

Go ahead, disprove any of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Retcon'd deaths:
Mwu
Andrew

Retcon'd survivals (Aka Strike's Hatch):
Kira

Pure luck:
Athrun (Gouf, Aegis incident)
Kira's disabling skills:
Athrun (Savior incident)
Relevancy?

All events happened. All events are cannon. All events work together to form the cohesive "reality" for this fictional universe.

If Mu can live through the Strike being destroyed, Stella can live through this. And we know he can because he did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
P.S. And of course, you can't have it be revealed that it was Shinn that killed her. That would burst his bubble and take all of the fight right out of him, which under the right circumstances could be pretty cool, but not in a series where there's literally half a dozen characters waiting in the wings to take over his role for him.
I think the vagueness works better for the story than if it had been revealed to be Shinn all along.

On the latter it makes Shinn more of a tragic figure, but it also makes him more foolish in a way and adds little.

The former helps inform the themes of impulsiveness, of misinformation during war and of the pointlessness of revenge while still drawing parallels between Shinn and Kira. It just fits the show better.
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Old 2013-08-12, 16:39   Link #8618
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I'd (normal/double/triple) dare Fukuda/Morosawa/Bandai/Sunrise to retcon Stella's death so that she would walk dance into Kira's sword.

If they actually go through that, I'll eat my hat.
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Old 2013-08-12, 17:13   Link #8619
Aquaman OS
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Keep in mind Shinn's attack merely exposed the cockpit. The attack that caused significant damage to the cockpit (with alarm's blaring and panels sparking and shrapnel on Stella's suit) was done by KIRA. And no. Not his final attack that destroyed the unit, but shortly after Neo inform's Shinn that Stella's piloting the Destroy, Kira flies in and railgun's it, causing much more significant damage than Shinn did.

So yeah, most of the damage was done by Kira.
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Old 2013-08-12, 17:15   Link #8620
Deadpool2000
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Actually, the shrapnel was there before Kira shot his railgun.

But yes, the railgun shot also hurt her.
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