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Old 2013-08-13, 15:22   Link #8641
Rising Dragon
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But you're not proving that Stella wasn't killed by such factors, which is where it matters. Our evidence has applied to Stella, yours hasn't, so ultimately you're just going off on tangents while calling us all wrong because you don't like anything implying Kira did bad.
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Old 2013-08-13, 15:28   Link #8642
Deadpool2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
But you're not proving that Stella wasn't killed by such factors, which is where it matters.
No, it DOESN'T matter.

You keep arguing against the idea of "Kira did no kill Stella." because you have this insane dillusion that I am tryint to defend his righteousness.

I am saying "we have no way of knowing WHAT killed Stella."

To do that I don't have to prove WHAT killed her. Actually, proving what killed her would disprove my entire statement.

What I have to prove is "Stella COULD have lived through this." and "Stella COULD have been killed by something else."

Both statements have been thoroughly discussed.

Are you all caught up now?
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Old 2013-08-13, 16:07   Link #8643
S.Freedom
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Uh no Deadpool the burden of proof is on you to prove something other than Kira's actions killed Stella because you're the one who started this whole mess by saying the cause of her death was vague.
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Old 2013-08-13, 16:15   Link #8644
Znozzy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
But that is the argument. The argument is that none of this is a "IS" it's all a "MAY".

I'm not TRYING to prove things. I am merely pointing out none of these events have a guaranteed outcome.
But they do. Stella died.


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It... wait for it... MAY have happened in this case.

We have no proof otherwise. Were it impossible to happen, then we'd have a guarantee. Since it IS possible, then we have an uncertainty.
We do. Stella died.

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By perfectly fine you mean crying, hurt with shrapnel protuding from her body?
She was scared out of her mind from having her cockpit breached and getting railgunned while said cockpit was still breached.

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People have survived grenades you know...
you full well know what i mean by it and you understand how silly it sounds.

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Which is a fine idea but not what was presented by the show. The show has the doctor describing her body as fundamentally different from a Naturals or a Coordinators.
Yes, due to the amount of drugs she is pumped full off to obtain said performance close to if not equal to a coordinator.

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TODAY we have drugs that make people more physically fit. Do you think the Extended program doesn't make them more physically fit?
Of course they do, by drugs and hard training from childhood, as shown in the show.

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Were any of these non cannon? Were any of the writers of this show NOT PRIVY to the other? Were any of these internall inconsistent with the other events?
want inconsistent? Try having Mwu's helmet in space then have him show up as Neo in Destiny.

Oh wait, they did a RETCON and removed said helmet from the dvd/SE.

Please re-read the wikipedia section regarding retcon's since you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

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You want more? In the exact same episode we have Stella dying, we Neo shot down, surviving the incredible crash and either being hit with a shockwave to hard it LAUNCHED him clear off the wreckage of his mobile suit and face first into the floor, or he fell off of it while his mobile suit was still in mid air. And he LIVED. AND we get our first major push that he is indeed Mu, guy who took a Positron Cannon and walked.
Yup. Those are all retarded. One can say Mwu crawled out of the upper body of his windam though, since that part was intact and was broken off when it landed/crashed and didn't blow up.

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We also have Sting lose his propulsion system, have his mobile suit cut in half and BOTH HALVES explode IN MIDAIR. And he STILL lived.
Yup.
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And you are seriously going to try and say that a litle explosion above her head is 100% unsurviveable. In a show, nay an EPISODE, where stuff like THAT happens?
You are going to bash the one thing that makes sense just because it makes sense?

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Oh goody, you must have some sort of X-Rays from her to prove she didn't have any internal damage from either attack?
Yup, the show doesn't show it.

It's pretty simple, really.

Mwu being a really good example, he sustained a injury from being impaled by some shrapnel while fighting Rau, his wound is shown bleeding and he is in pain from it.

actually, they show that again in episode 49 when the Strike is badly damaged from the fight with Providence.

They have a habit of showing when a pilot sustains injuries in the CE'verse, Athrun passing out > taken out of the IJ's cockpit, blood everywhere.

it's all there, except for Stella, since she didn't sustain any.
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Oh excellent, you must have the medical journal on the exact physionomy of a second stage biological computer and the long term effects of not going into maintenance over an extended period of time then?
No, i have common sense, try applying some the next time.

Stella not being fine before being pushed into super-extended-healing bed
Stella being fine after getting up of super-extended-healing bed.

Pretty simple? it's all there, 1 + 1 = 2, but you seem to have a problem with math, so i'll draw you a picture instead.


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Again, we have evidence of this?
No reaction to being pierced by debris and showing no pain or blood = no injury.

Stella sustained no physical injuries from the Impulse slashing the cockpit open nor Kira nailing the Destroy with his railgun.

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Do you go through Seed pretending Andrew died and Dearka never defected? Do you watch Seed Destiny assuming Athrun has a fake arm and the Freedom is piloted by a ghost?
No, unlike you, i actually understand the show and what is shown, i don't need the smallest simple details written out to understand them.

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Yup. The hint there was "I think". Or the earlier post where I specifically stated what was fact (the situation is vague) and what was opinion (this was done on purpose).

There's not blood from ANY wound. Whatever killed her was internal, so observing her lack of external mark is kinda silly.

If she HAD some sort of external damage it wouldn't BE vague.
DING DING DING DING DING DING WINNER.

She was fine until the Destroy was stabbed in the Beam cannons, causing several explosions fatally wounding her from blast injuries.

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Btw, I do like that Shinn went into the cockpit of the very unstable Destroy, picked out the debris (which were either not hurting her at all and thus a waste of time, or were hurting her and thus incredibly dangerous to remove), took off her helmet and unzipped her shirt enough for him to see her cleavage BEFORE dragging her down and trying to talk to her...

Sorry, bad animation decisions crack me up.
Indeed, but lots of debris was lobbed into the shoulder-pauldrons he seemed to have ditched somewhere off screen.


I understand the point you are trying to make, but you picked the worst possible example of doing so.

Stella's death is so clear it doesn't need to be explained in detail.

Stella died due to the Destroy exploding all around her, there is no may or maybes involved, we are shown everything in the actual episode, both the cause and death.

Yet again, you have no evidence except your own speculations to support your claim. You've lost, please drop it before you make a bigger fool out of yourself than you already have.
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Old 2013-08-13, 16:51   Link #8645
Kirayuki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
You might want to look up "doesn't care." It doesn't mean "silent agreement."
Unfortunately, it is. It doesn't need reason anyway because it's self-evident.

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Impartial, omniscient observer > impulsive child
Assuming you are omniscient in the first place.

Give proof if you are omniscient.

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Did you just claim to live in a universe where opinions change reality JUST TO DISAGREE?
Isn't that what you are doing ? Assuming opinion as reality.

Look, you're arguing about this whole mess. If you want to be proven right by the others provide both evidences to support your claim

1. Prove what Kira did to her will absolutely not be able to kill her. Ruling him out completely
2. Show that the show deny "Kira is the killer" statement of Shinn

Simple. Don't twist some facts just for supporting your argument. What are you doing up until now is "I said this and there are these proofs that somehow fit for the convenient of my argument". You are not the judge whether your evidences or argument are correct, the others are.

Oh and please don't give this "I have already given those" statement again. The evidences you gave has already been proven to be insufficient to support your argument. Your whole stance of "The killer is vague" will only work after you managed to disprove the obvious fact, and that is only by making sure Kira is ruled out completely or the show denied him.

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I mean you just made the claim that your opinion is nothing but following a large group of people. I'm fairly certain (or, should I say, I really hope) that's not what you MEANT, but that IS what you said. Do people just not read their own arguments on the internet?
Your whole premise about "opinion shared by many is not necessarily true" only have weight if your own opinion have some sort of credibility backed by some proved and acknowledged evidences.

The thing is you're assuming your argument is already perfect along with the "required" evidences to support it.

Again, if you can prove both points I mentioned above (or rather, just prove the first one) you win. Otherwise, you will be just repeating the same old statement that nobody will really take seriously.
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Old 2013-08-13, 17:28   Link #8646
blitz1/2
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Oh mygosh, this argument is still going? It wasn't Kira that killed Stella, it wasn't Shinn either. You want to know who killed Stella?

The DESTROY DID, if it weren't exploding on the inside (and taking a massive fall) then Stellar wouldn't have died! See, there! HAH!
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Old 2013-08-13, 17:29   Link #8647
Rising Dragon
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And it only did that because Kira started it. God, Kira. Why ya gotta break everything you touch?
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Old 2013-08-13, 17:34   Link #8648
Kirayuki
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No, the true culprit is Durandal. He was the one who leaked the data of Destroy to EA. It is a crappy giant suit that can kill its pilot when the cannon exploded!!!

>Inb4 "it's Fukuda or Morosawa's fault"
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Old 2013-08-13, 17:59   Link #8649
Skye629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
From a "realistic" standpoint, it is a lot more likely than none of her wounds alone would kill her but that ALL of her wounds together caused her death.

But we aren't talking about likely. We are talking about CERTAINTY. And there is none.

No my argument has ALWAYS mean "It doesn't HAVE to be that." From the very first post to this one. It hasn't changed, even though it has been misunderstood repeatedly.

Which is the whole POINT of something being vague. It means "not certain." It means "not 100%" It means "There are other possible scenarios that lead to the same end result." It means "I CAN be that, but it can ALSO be something else."



Proving that other people can survive worse IS the proof you are asking for.

In order:

1. No shit that all of the wounds etc would add up. But the FINAL blow is what truly kills the person, in this case Kira's attack. All of her previous wounds were quite survivable (going by the animation, and supposed properties of the pilot suit. Normally that amount of shrapnel would be fatal if not treated immediately)

2. There is certainty: What the show presents

3. First sentence: Well IT IS, thats what the show presented (Kira dealing the final blow). The show makes it so obvious that you barely have to think about it. Yes we know your argument, and have been refuting it from the start. Sure you are free to think even deeper into what happened

4. You don't need to repeatedly define this, were not stupid you know. Its actually a little insulting

5. The fact said characters survived IS NOT proof. Each one had plot armor and retcons going for them, which are easily the best get-out-of-jail free cards in any fictional form of media. Stella on the other hand had none, as it was in the PLOT that she would die



It is a HUGE point of importance that show keeps things simple for the viewers to follow. Otherwise if they had everyone thinking along the same lines as you ("What if....it could have been this or that etcetc") then they clearly failed big time. The fact that everyone KNOWS that the show CLEARY gave Kira the final blow is proof enough


WE dont need to provide any form of evidence as to what happened as the show clearly showed us what it wanted. YOU on the other hand are posing what in science we call an "extraordinary claim" or in simple terms something that goes against what have already been established as common knowledge (eg saying that gravity does not work as we believe it does). To prove such a claim, large amounts of supporting data is needed. However as you are drawing from a fictional show, and are dealing with "maybes" and "what ifs", make your stance extremely hard to back other that conjecture and/or opinion

EDIT: dear god you guys are so fast in posting responses that mine looks somewhat outdated now
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Old 2013-08-13, 18:37   Link #8650
Deadpool2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
But they do. Stella died.



We do. Stella died.
You realize of course that no one is arguing that Stella lived, yes?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
She was scared out of her mind from having her cockpit breached and getting railgunned while said cockpit was still breached.
Does that prevent her from suffering internal injuries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
you full well know what i mean by it and you understand how silly it sounds.
It's silly because you want it to be silly.

Consider: A man is bitten by an animal. The same man is then caught in a concussive blast. The later dies with no visible injuries.

Can you be 100% certain of what killed this man without an autopsy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Yes, due to the amount of drugs she is pumped full off to obtain said performance close to if not equal to a coordinator.
And you are arguing she doesn't perform beyond a Natural?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
want inconsistent? Try having Mwu's helmet in space then have him show up as Neo in Destiny.

Oh wait, they did a RETCON and removed said helmet from the dvd/SE.
Wait, was that BEFORE Stella died? Like A YEAR before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Yup. Those are all retarded. One can say Mwu crawled out of the upper body of his windam though, since that part was intact and was broken off when it landed/crashed and didn't blow up.
Which would still have him within the blast effect of his legs exploding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
You are going to bash the one thing that makes sense just because it makes sense?
Who said anything about bashing?

I asked, in a world where all of that happens, are you going to state that it is 100% impossible to survive the exploding Destroy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
it's all there, except for Stella, since she didn't sustain any.
The problem is that the damage that killed her was INTERNAL. Therefore, proving that she had no visible external damage does NOT preclude her from having INTERNAL damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Stella being fine
Prove she was fine.

Since you compare her problem to drug withdrawal, doing some reasearch on the long term effects of drug withdrawal may help you see she may not have been 100% back to normal after all. And this is ignoring her being an Extended.

We have unknown drugs, unknown physionomy, unknown treatment... And a stone clad guarantee that everything is fine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
No reaction to being pierced by debris and showing no pain or blood = no injury.
Well, I guess Kira didn't kill her then since she wasn't pierced by any debris, nor bleeding... She must have died of magic dust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Stella sustained no physical injuries from the Impulse slashing the cockpit open nor Kira nailing the Destroy with his railgun.
She also sustained no injuries from the Destroy exploding.

OR she received internal injuries. Which could have come from any one of those three sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
No, unlike you, i actually understand the show and what is shown, i don't need the smallest simple details written out to understand them.
Excellent. Coincidentally, let me write out the smallest simple details of the argument you misunderstood.

Andrew was supposed to die. Dearka was not supposed to defect. Kira was supposed to die. Athrun was supposed to be maimed. Mu was supposed to die.

You ignore Mu's survival as cannon because he was meant to die. I am asking why you don't treat the OTHER changes from the original plan the same way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
She was fine until the Destroy was stabbed in the Beam cannons, causing several explosions fatally wounding her from blast injuries.
Or she was bleeding internally before the Destroy was stabbed.

We just don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
I understand the point you are trying to make,
I am really doubting that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirayuki View Post
Assuming you are omniscient in the first place.

Give proof if you are omniscient.
*sighs*

CE universe is fiction. Nothing happens there that we are not privy to. Therefore we know every single event to ever happen in that universe.

As the audience, we are all omniscient. Because their universe is bound to what WE experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirayuki View Post
Isn't that what you are doing ? Assuming opinion as reality.
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirayuki View Post
If you want to be proven right by the others provide both evidences to support your claim

1. Prove what Kira did to her will absolutely not be able to kill her. Ruling him out completely
Wait, what? Are you serious? Please tell me this is a joke, or a troll, or something. My faith in humanity has never been particularly great but...

Did you just ask me to disprove my point in order to prove my point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
In order:

1. No shit that all of the wounds etc would add up. But the FINAL blow is what truly kills the person,
Here's the thing. The most likely scenario isn't necessarily true.

All of the attacks are believably survivable and all of her attacks are believably fatal. We can play probability all we want, but in the end we DO NOT KNOW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
2. There is certainty: What the show presents
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
4. You don't need to repeatedly define this, were not stupid you know. Its actually a little insulting
You say that but:

Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
prove something other than Kira's actions killed Stella
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirayuki View Post
If you want to be proven right [...] prove what Kira did to her will absolutely not be able to kill her. Ruling him out completely
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
you're just going off on tangents [...]because you don't like anything implying Kira did bad.
Really does show a gross misunderstanding of what is actually being said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
5. The fact said characters survived IS NOT proof. Each one had plot armor and retcons going for them
You can call it Eleanor Roosevelt in a go cart for all I care, the fact remains that in the CE universe more people have lived through the injuries that Stella received (and, in fact, MUCH worse) than people have died.

This proves that any and all of her wounds are indeed believably surviveable.

Hell, people in real life have survived wounds worse than hers. Just ask Juliane Koepcke...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
The fact that everyone KNOWS that the show CLEARY gave Kira the final blow is proof enough.
That's faulty logic. Humans believe the first thing they are told easily and fight change. This is why religions tend to congregate in certain areas, why people still think science doesn't understand how the bumblebee flies and why every year people keep trying to make eggs stand up during the Equinox, and why people think humans only use 90% of their brains.

Having a lot of people take the easy answer doesn't make it right.
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Old 2013-08-13, 19:23   Link #8651
Znozzy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
You realize of course that no one is arguing that Stella lived, yes?
Oh god no, i don't think anyone else is arguing over how she died except you either for that matter.

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Does that prevent her from suffering internal injuries?
in this case, yes, she sustained no internal injuries from the two earlier cockpit related incidents while she was sitting in the destroy, Check earlier points where it's explained.

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It's silly because you want it to be silly.

Consider: A man is bitten by an animal. The same man is then caught in a concussive blast. The later dies with no visible injuries.

Can you be 100% certain of what killed this man without an autopsy?
Seeing how he sustained no visible injuries? concussive blast, Autopsy would show the same, seeing how the animal bite gave him no injury. Staged scenario =/= What happened in the show, it's irrelevant.

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And you are arguing she doesn't perform beyond a Natural?
i said she was given drugs to perform close to/if not on par with a coordinator, i belive this is the third time i've repeated myself aswell.

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Wait, was that BEFORE Stella died? Like A YEAR before?
Oh wow, it seems like you are capable of some thinking after all! *Claps*
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Which would still have him within the blast effect of his legs exploding.
No, the windam's leg department explodes AFTER the upper body of the Windam flies away.

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Who said anything about bashing?

I asked, in a world where all of that happens, are you going to state that it is 100% impossible to survive the exploding Destroy?
Sorry, bitching*

Yes, seeing how no pilot that has ever piloted a exploding Destroy came out of it alive, lol.
Hell, no animated pilot of a Destroy has survived, ever.
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The problem is that the damage that killed her was INTERNAL. Therefore, proving that she had no visible external damage does NOT preclude her from having INTERNAL damage.
No, it's not a problem - that's the beauty of it.
She was fine up until Kira stabbed the cannons
She was not fine after Kira stabbed the cannons

how do we know that?

She was shown to be dying and shivering in pain while Shinn was holding her.

Anime's have a habit of showing when character's gets injured, either by coughing up blood, SHOWING the actual injury,showing that they are in pain or having them die after they are injured, of course, if they have a last name, expect a speech before dying.

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Prove she was fine.
i don't have to,but i did several times already. You have to prove she wasn't. You can't keep saying " prove it " when you havent proved a single part about your theory or brought anything at all except your own opinions to support your claim.

Quote:
Since you compare her problem to drug withdrawal, doing some reasearch on the long term effects of drug withdrawal may help you see she may not have been 100% back to normal after all. And this is ignoring her being an Extended.

We have unknown drugs, unknown physionomy, unknown treatment... And a stone clad guarantee that everything is fine?
Yup, i compared it to withdrawal syndrome since the symptoms was similar to it, However.
After x amount of time in the Super-healing bed and she was shown to be fine. Did you watch the actual episode? because it's right there, in. the. actual. show.

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Well, I guess Kira didn't kill her then since she wasn't pierced by any debris, nor bleeding... She must have died of magic dust.
Seeing how the Freedom runs on Pixie dust, one can say that the Pixie dust was the cause of her death, yes a pixie dust powered beam saber to a charging up triple beam cannon.

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She also sustained no injuries from the Destroy exploding.
it's pretty clear she did, seeing how she died the scene after her cockpit got engulfed by explosions.


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OR she received internal injuries. Which could have come from any one of those three sources.
No - you don't get to make that call, the show does that for you, and it proves your theory wrong, once again.

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Excellent. Coincidentally, let me write out the smallest simple details of the argument you misunderstood.

Andrew was supposed to die. Dearka was not supposed to defect. Kira was supposed to die. Athrun was supposed to be maimed. Mu was supposed to die.

You ignore Mu's survival as cannon because he was meant to die. I am asking why you don't treat the OTHER changes from the original plan the same way?
No - i clearly pointed out Kira,Andrew and Mwu survived thanks to retcons, once again you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, read the wikipedia page, you really need to.

Also, the only non-coordinator that survived there was Mwu, the rest of them all had Coordinator bodies and could sustain injuries greater than any Natural. Stella included.

While Stella's mental functions, reaction time, Strength was enhanced due to drugs, there is no sign at all to prove her bodies endurance was on par with a coordinator.



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Or she was bleeding internally before the Destroy was stabbed.

We just don't know.
We know, you don't, that's the point you seem to ignore at any given time, you are alone trying to make this point, noone else supports your claim, you have no credibility at all seeing how you don't provide any proof at all to actually back them up. People are tired of your posts seeing how you bring nothing to the table except simple childish " Nu-uuh " behavior.

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I am really doubting that.
Don't, it's time to start doubting yourself.


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CE universe is fiction. Nothing happens there that we are not privy to. Therefore we know every single event to ever happen in that universe.
Clearly we don't seeing how side story materials fill in the blanks sometimes.

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As the audience, we are all omniscient. Because their universe is bound to what WE experience.
No, The universe is bound to what the creator wants until a sequel is greenlit.


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Here's the thing. The most likely scenario isn't necessarily true.
in this case, it is.

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All of the attacks are believably survivable and all of her attacks are believably fatal. We can play probability all we want, but in the end we DO NOT KNOW.
WE know, you don't.




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This proves that any and all of her wounds are indeed believably surviveable.
Except one of them caused her death.

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Hell, people in real life have survived wounds worse than hers. Just ask Juliane Koepcke...
People have survived headshots, knife wounds, getting impaled by objects, etc. That doesn't mean it's the norm for all those injuries - rather extreme cases where someone walks into the ER with a knife stuck in his head.

And sorry to break it to you, Rule of anime:

#1 - Law of Metaphysical Irregularity- The normal laws of physics do not apply.

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That's faulty logic. Humans believe the first thing they are told easily and fight change. This is why religions tend to congregate in certain areas, why people still think science doesn't understand how the bumblebee flies and why every year people keep trying to make eggs stand up during the Equinox, and why people think humans only use 90% of their brains.
oh dear god.
Quote:
Having a lot of people take the easy answer doesn't make it right.
it isn't the easy answer, it's the right answer.
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Old 2013-08-13, 19:32   Link #8652
blitz1/2
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Damnit, ok. New theory:

Stellar didn't die in Shinn's arms, she just fell asleep/unconscious because she felt so tired. And Shinn, thinking she was dead, dropped her in the lake which drowned her. There, Shinn should be charged with manslaughter
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Old 2013-08-13, 19:44   Link #8653
Skye629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Here's the thing. The most likely scenario isn't necessarily true.

All of the attacks are believably survivable and all of her attacks are believably fatal. We can play probability all we want, but in the end we DO NOT KNOW.

You say that but:
Really does show a gross misunderstanding of what is actually being said.

You can call it Eleanor Roosevelt in a go cart for all I care, the fact remains that in the CE universe more people have lived through the injuries that Stella received (and, in fact, MUCH worse) than people have died.
This proves that any and all of her wounds are indeed believably surviveable.

That's faulty logic. Humans believe the first thing they are told easily and fight change. Having a lot of people take the easy answer doesn't make it right.
Once again in order:

1. No shit, nothing in this world is 100% (except for death at some point)

2. First point depends on the situation. In general they ARE all survivable, but thats under the assumption that she will receive prompt if not immediate medical attention . Which is not the case here as she is fighting in a MS. Second point is not entirely true. The first attack which exposed her cockpit WAS NOT fatal (if it was she would have died immediately due to the beam hitting her and this argument would not exist), it only scared her. The second attack from the Freedom which inflicted shrapnel injury WAS NOT fatal as there was zero signs of bleeding/skin penetration despite all the shrapnel (this is all going by what the animation presented, if she was bleeding like a stuck pig I would be more inclined to believe your case that the final blow may not have been a cause of death). The final blow WAS NOT IMMEDIATELY fatal as she did not die in the explosions, but rather a few minutes later in Shinn's arms (as such this is the most believable case, as well as what the directors were going for to advance the plot with Shinn's revenge and dramatic purposes). While it MAY be true for what you are arguing, the general consensus is that she died of the final blow, and up to this point, nobody have thought to dig this deep into the subject until you. And in the end, its completely pointless as the show already showed what it wanted us to think

3. They are asking you to prove your point. Answering with "vague" as your whole point is not definite proof, its your opinion/conjecture on the matter. They want hard lined facts, which with your argument of "vague" is near impossible to provide as all of this can be interpreted differently (evidence you and others above posts, though all seem to err on one side of the argument). Its like asking a Catholic to prove the existence of God, who then answers God exists because he wrote the Bible. Thats not proof. To this

So for this whole argument you argue the exact cause of her death is "vague". Now others ask "what evidence do you have to prove the exact cause of her death is vague?". To which you supplied the other instances where she took damage as possible causes. HOWEVER the way that the first two instances were prevented on screen does not back up that they could have been a cause for her death. As noted above slashing open the cockpit did nothing other than mental damage, the shrapnel blast showed zero signs of physically damaging her through the suit. However she died shortly after the last blow. This is what everyone goes on. WHAT WAS PRESENTED ON SCREEN, not what could have/maybe happened when digging deeper into the process, which is unescessary as Kira getting the final blow in and Stella dying shortly after was all that was ever wanted to be conveyed


4. Yeah, but those characters all were scripted not to die in Destiny. Stella had the death flag from the moment she and Shinn ended up in that cave and become attached. And you cant use examples of no-names/other people in the war that survived such. Also real life examples are completely irrelevant as this is FICTION, and ANIME on top of that, where the impossible is possible. What you said does NOT prove anything

5. Point 1. That depends. First it depends on whether that the first thing they are told really is a new piece of info. If so it is easily accepted as we need a basis to start with/to go on until further corrected. People fight change true, but that also depends on the person and what the topic is about. Resistance particularly happens with things that shapes their world views/what have been the basis of their life (eg religion in particular) or when something threatens their autonomy. Education levels highly play a part also in whether people just take information for granted. Point two: yes it does not necessarily makes it right, but in many cases a huge majority is an indication that there is something there. In this case you happen to be the 1% who is arguing against a scene which the majority of people (who have watched the show) views as common knowledge. Also in this case the easy answer is the right answer as thats what the directors wanted everyone to know, the easy answer, "Kira killed Stella, now the plot moves along"


This is not some sort of conspiracy theory where we need to delve into further facts and maybe's. Its a clear cut presentation to move a plot along. AND its FICTION, hardly something you need to bust braincells on. Only the simple stuff matters here. And thats "Kira killed Stella to advance to plot, The End"

IF you changed your argument to "Stella's exact cause of death was vague due to lack of details in the animation and crappy writing" then I'd think you'd be off to a MUCH better start


How you got this notion of the cause of her death being "vague" and thought to bring it up is beyond me, as in the end there is nothing to gain from it. If you want to treat it that way then sure, fine by me, but dont go thinking you can have all of us thinking the same thing, as its a waste of our time when something have been easily established

@EVERYONE (I really mean everyone on here who participated in this wacky debate)

I say just drop it, let Deadpool think what he wants while we stick to our views on the matter, in the end this is gonna get ALL of us NOWHERE and is a COMPLETE waste of ALL our time
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Old 2013-08-13, 19:57   Link #8654
quagmire
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As a side note to this debate.... Something I just noticed watching Seed remaster again.

One button can do it all. Kira presses the button to duck Miguel's attack. Lacus presses the same button( in the Aegis) and tells Rau to stop his attack.



Ok back to the stupid debate....
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Old 2013-08-13, 20:37   Link #8655
Deadpool2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
n this case, yes, she sustained no internal injuries
And I again I ask you, how do you KNOW? Internal injuries aren't visible nor do they have any guaranteed signs, and the time table while untreated is death between anywhere between 10 minutes and 10 hours.

Don't guess, don't believe, KNOW. How do you KNOW?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
]Seeing how he sustained no visible injuries? concussive blast, Autopsy would show the same, seeing how the animal bite gave him no injury.
Ah ah, the autopsy reveals the bite. It was hidden under clothes. Try again.

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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
it's irrelevant.
You brought it up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
i said she was given drugs to perform close to/if not on par with a coordinator, i belive this is the third time i've repeated myself aswell.
*ahem*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Also, every other character you brought up are Coordinators, they have enhanced bodies.
My response? So do Extendeds.

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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Oh wow, it seems like you are capable of some thinking after all! *Claps*
Oh good, we're in the pointless sentences while ignoring the argument phase of internet discussions.

If the RetCon happened a YEAR before Stella's death, why is it irrelevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
No, the windam's leg department explodes AFTER the upper body of the Windam flies away.
And? Unlike thermal energy, shockwaves lose very little energy when travelling through the air. With most of the buildings gone, there wouldn't be much solid matter to absorb it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Yes, seeing how no pilot that has ever piloted a exploding Destroy came out of it alive, lol.
Well there's you problem right there. Even though pilots have survived worse, you still don't think a pilot could survive this.

I'd ask why not, but I already know the answer. You're too personally invested in this argument to be reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
She was fine up until Kira stabbed the cannons
She was not fine after Kira stabbed the cannons
Silly as this sounds, the only difference between the two events is her death. She was no more hurt after the cannon explosion than she was before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Anime's have a habit of showing when character's gets injured, either by coughing up blood, SHOWING the actual injury,showing that they are in pain or having them die after they are injured, of course, if they have a last name, expect a speech before dying.
Just because I have a habit of locking the door doesn't mean I do it every single time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
i don't have to,but i did several times already. You have to prove she wasn't.
No, I have to prove it is POSSIBLE. Not that it DID happen, but that it MAY have. Which is a lot easier actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
After x amount of time in the Super-healing bed and she was shown to be fine. Did you watch the actual episode? because it's right there, in. the. actual. show.
Except for the part where she is dead without any visible injuries shortly afterwards... But yes, fine otherwise.

There is such a thing as a short term treatment. You can feel sick, then feel better, then get worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
it's pretty clear she did, seeing how she died the scene after her cockpit got engulfed by explosions.
As ice cream sales rise, crime rises (this is ACTUAL fact). Does ice cream cause crime?

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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
No - you don't get to make that call, the show does that for you, and it proves your theory wrong, once again.
"Nah huh!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
No - i clearly pointed out Kira,Andrew and Mwu survived thanks to retcons,
And what difference does that make?

What matters is THAT they lived, not the why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Also, the only non-coordinator that survived there was Mwu, the rest of them all had Coordinator bodies and could sustain injuries greater than any Natural. Stella included.
And Sting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
While Stella's mental functions, reaction time, Strength was enhanced due to drugs, there is no sign at all to prove her bodies endurance was on par with a coordinator.
Well, would you look who likes to use doubt when the situation benefits him...

Irrelevant since Mu, Neo and Sting all survived comparable/worse damage. Even if you somehow want to believe the Extended program doesn't help resistance to damage, it wouldn't preclude those three events. And those three are enough to prove this is survivable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
We know, you don't, that's the point you seem to ignore at any given time, you are alone trying to make this point, noone else supports your claim,
Why are you all so focused on number of people that agree with you? Does it prove anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Clearly we don't seeing how side story materials fill in the blanks sometimes.
We don't see side story materials? Who sees them then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
No, The universe is bound to what the creator wants until a sequel is greenlit.
Actually, until a sequel is greenlit, the creator has zero control over the universe. It is now out of his hands. While he is creating the show, he is its God. Afterwards? Zero control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Except one of them caused her death.
Yup. ONE of them did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
People have survived headshots, knife wounds, getting impaled by objects, etc. That doesn't mean it's the norm
I didn't say it was the norm. I said it was possible.

and in CE, it IS the norm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
2. First point depends on the situation. In general they ARE all survivable, but thats under the assumption that she will receive prompt if not immediate medical attention.
Considering Sting just had his mobile suit torn in two and exploded in mid air and he LIVED despite the nearest EA rescue team being who-the-hell-knows-where... I'm gonna go off on a limb here and say the medical attention doesn't have to be super immediate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
The first attack which exposed her cockpit WAS NOT fatal (if it was she would have died immediately due to the beam hitting her and this argument would not exist)
She died of internal damage. There is nothing precluding this attack from causing internal bleeding. A lot of debris is torn loose, and she rocks back and forth pretty hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
The second attack from the Freedom which inflicted shrapnel injury
Actually, the shrapnel is there before the shot.

Again, we see her being rocked back and forth pretty hard. We have no idea what kind of internal damage, if any, was received here either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
While it MAY be true for what you are arguing, the general consensus
The general consensus isn't proof of anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
HOWEVER the way that the first two instances were prevented on screen does not back up that they could have been a cause for her death.
Which, normally, would be reasonable. The problem is that, as it was presented on the screen, the LAST HIT also doesn't LOOK like it could kill.

Therein lies the problem. The final hit doesn't look deadly at all.

Surely something killed her (since she is dead), but none of her individual wounds are clearly the cause. Hence, vagueness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
4. Yeah, but those characters all were scripted not to die in Destiny.
And who scripted them to live? Who scripted them to walk away after their mobile suits are torn in half, after falling several hundred feet hard enough to leave a trail twice as long as their mobile suit?

The SAME people who scripted Stella's death.

This is about the rules of the universe. As per established rules, being inside an exploding mobile suit is not necessarily lethal. Some people die from it, so it CAN be lethal. But most people live.

Those are the rules of the universe as established over the past 80 episodes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
People fight change true, but that also depends on the person and what the topic is about.
There is a reason why, after religion, I chose to list minor and mostly inconsequential things. People resist change regardlss of how important it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
Point two: yes it does not necessarily makes it right
Then it is irrelevant, isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
Also in this case the easy answer is the right answer as thats what the directors wanted everyone to know, the easy answer, "Kira killed Stella, now the plot moves along"
It is possible that is what they wanted. I certainly am not privy to the writer's and director's mind.

I can only tell you what they DID. And what they DID was craft a death scene where the cause is actually vague.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
IF you changed your argument to "Stella's exact cause of death was vague due to lack of details in the animation and crappy writing" then I'd think you'd be off to a MUCH better start
At the start, I actually made no mention either way as to WHY it was vague. Simply that it was.

And since, while I made it clear that I feel it was vague on purpose, I've also made it clear it is my opinion, and the opinion that it was vague because the animators suck was actually reasonable and possible (even if I disagree).

Quote:
Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
As a side note to this debate.... Something I just noticed watching Seed remaster again.

One button can do it all. Kira presses the button to duck Miguel's attack. Lacus presses the same button( in the Aegis) and tells Rau to stop his attack.
That was the first thing I noticed in Seed: Kira tackling Miguel by moving a lever...

Then again, can you imagine how complicated the controls would have to be for it to work?
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Old 2013-08-13, 21:43   Link #8656
Aquaman OS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blitz1/2 View Post
Damnit, ok. New theory:

Stellar didn't die in Shinn's arms, she just fell asleep/unconscious because she felt so tired. And Shinn, thinking she was dead, dropped her in the lake which drowned her. There, Shinn should be charged with manslaughter
That's true. After all we don't KNOW she was dead then. Shinn didn't check her pulse or anything, she just closed her eyes and stopped moving. That doesn't mean dead (even thought is usually does) because the show doesn't outright tell us this so we don't KNOW.

And since we don't KNOW this theory is perfectly plausible. Because everything the show doesn't word for word tell us means anything could have happened.

Because we don't KNOW.

I personally propose that Shinn was kidnapped off screen and replaced with a crazier clone. It's possible. After all the show doesn't tell us that the Shinn we see for the whole show is always the same Shinn.

We don't KNOW.
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Old 2013-08-13, 22:57   Link #8657
Kirayuki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
CE universe is fiction. Nothing happens there that we are not privy to. Therefore we know every single event to ever happen in that universe.

As the audience, we are all omniscient. Because their universe is bound to what WE experience.
You are just observer, not one who decide things. Get this fact straight first. Any word from the series is called the "Word of God". Your observation can fall flat or denied by the show.

Quote:
Wait, what? Are you serious? Please tell me this is a joke, or a troll, or something. My faith in humanity has never been particularly great but...

Did you just ask me to disprove my point in order to prove my point?
Quote:
Here's the thing. The most likely scenario isn't necessarily true.

All of the attacks are believably survivable and all of her attacks are believably fatal. We can play probability all we want, but in the end we DO NOT KNOW.
Quote:
You can call it Eleanor Roosevelt in a go cart for all I care, the fact remains that in the CE universe more people have lived through the injuries that Stella received (and, in fact, MUCH worse) than people have died.
Congratulations! Have you just finally realized your contradiction this whole time ?

To start it off, if you don't think the killer matters why you would argue about vagueness in the first place ?. It doesn't worth your time because it's not relevant in the grand scope of things, in your book. However, your action clearly shows that you did indeed care for it which means it does matter.

Your whole position about "Stella could have survived", "The killer is vague" are essentially trying to disprove every action of all parties can kill her 100%. There is 1 main culprit, get this into your head first. Even if it's all the combination of the injuries, the final blow and the greatest injury was given by 1 person.

We've already proven how she couldn't die from the previous 2 causes, which only leaves 1 possibility.

And in fact, you can't prove the show denying "Kira is the killer" too.

Your argument regarding how others survived worse scenarios is backed by twisted facts that are exploiting the loophole of the universe (read : RetCon and Plot-Armor)

Quote:
This proves that any and all of her wounds are indeed believably surviveable.
Then why did she die soon after the last attack ?

Quote:
Hell, people in real life have survived wounds worse than hers. Just ask Juliane Koepcke...
How many are those who survived and how many are those who didn't ? Just because you can survive one doesn't mean you WILL survive 100%.

Quote:
Having a lot of people take the easy answer doesn't make it right.
Having a "no-answer", "vague", or the hard one doesn't make it right too

Quote:
And what difference does that make?

What matters is THAT they lived, not the why.
Oh no, please. Do Not Ignore Some Facts Just For The Convenience Of Your Argument.

Retcon and Plot-Armor Matters. More So In SEED Universe
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Last edited by Kirayuki; 2013-08-13 at 23:52.
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Old 2013-08-13, 23:01   Link #8658
blitz1/2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
That's true. After all we don't KNOW she was dead then. Shinn didn't check her pulse or anything, she just closed her eyes and stopped moving. That doesn't mean dead (even thought is usually does) because the show doesn't outright tell us this so we don't KNOW.

And since we don't KNOW this theory is perfectly plausible. Because everything the show doesn't word for word tell us means anything could have happened.

Because we don't KNOW.

I personally propose that Shinn was kidnapped off screen and replaced with a crazier clone. It's possible. After all the show doesn't tell us that the Shinn we see for the whole show is always the same Shinn.

We don't KNOW.
For we all know, Stellar may have accidentally pressed the self detonation when she broke down crying in the cockpit (coincidentally when Kira stabbed the cannons)
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Old 2013-08-14, 00:23   Link #8659
The American Average
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Originally Posted by blitz1/2 View Post
Damnit, ok. New theory:

Stellar didn't die in Shinn's arms, she just fell asleep/unconscious because she felt so tired. And Shinn, thinking she was dead, dropped her in the lake which drowned her. There, Shinn should be charged with manslaughter
that sounds so Shinn, forgets to check if Stella is alive and throws her in a watery grave thinking thats where she wants to be.
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Old 2013-08-14, 02:00   Link #8660
Skye629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
As a side note to this debate.... Something I just noticed watching Seed remaster again.

One button can do it all. Kira presses the button to duck Miguel's attack. Lacus presses the same button( in the Aegis) and tells Rau to stop his attack.
Different hotkeys? Lol :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
She died of internal damage. There is nothing precluding this attack from causing internal bleeding. A lot of debris is torn loose, and she rocks back and forth pretty hard.
Actually, the shrapnel is there before the shot.
Again, we see her being rocked back and forth pretty hard. We have no idea what kind of internal damage, if any, was received here either.

Given the size of the Destroy and AF pilot safety? Probably minimal damage (bruising/scrapes) at the very most

The general consensus isn't proof of anything.

Not necessarily

Which, normally, would be reasonable. The problem is that, as it was presented on the screen, the LAST HIT also doesn't LOOK like it could kill.
Therein lies the problem. The final hit doesn't look deadly at all.

Opinion, it looked plenty lethal to me. IMO the ONLY reason she survived past the cockpit was for dramatic effect with Shinn (temporary plot armor if you will)

Surely something killed her (since she is dead), but none of her individual wounds are clearly the cause. Hence, vagueness.

Vague if you look at it from your perspective, most people have already settled on what killed her (including the directors, otherwise there would have been no scene of Freedom giving the final blow). And given the plot, it is the most fitting outcome

And who scripted them to live? Who scripted them to walk away after their mobile suits are torn in half, after falling several hundred feet hard enough to leave a trail twice as long as their mobile suit?

There is a reason why, after religion, I chose to list minor and mostly inconsequential things. People resist change regardlss of how important it is.

I know, but it still ("ALWAYS") depends on the people/culture/society. People where I live can change pretty easily if you give them cold hard facts and proof (eg from documented studies by lead professionals)

It is possible that is what they wanted. I certainly am not privy to the writer's and director's mind.

I would say that IT WAS what they wanted. The show only benefits if its more easy to follow, no matter how complex the subject is

I can only tell you what they DID. And what they DID was craft a death scene where the cause is actually vague.

Opinion, as most people seem to have gotten a conclusion out of it, including me


At the start, I actually made no mention either way as to WHY it was vague. Simply that it was.

And since, while I made it clear that I feel it was vague on purpose, I've also made it clear it is my opinion, and the opinion that it was vague because the animators suck was actually reasonable and possible (even if I disagree).

Since it is your opinion I'll leave it at this

Good day to you

(PS. I do sincerely hope that you use your time better than just arguing on here. Same goes for everyone else who is actively participating)


Quote:
Originally Posted by blitz1/2 View Post
Damnit, ok. New theory:

Stellar didn't die in Shinn's arms, she just fell asleep/unconscious because she felt so tired. And Shinn, thinking she was dead, dropped her in the lake which drowned her. There, Shinn should be charged with manslaughter

OK I GIVE

You sir, win the internet


Deadpool's argument makes much more sense given this comment. Im gonna take this as the exact cause of her death

Thanks for the laugh
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