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Old 2013-08-17, 09:50   Link #8821
CBredbeard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
Except Shinn always tried to use it against MS more than he did ships and MAs, going right back to the supposed claim of the Destiny's engineers studying Shinn's piloting data. There's a reason the Impulse's ASS design was superior to the Destiny's: The blade extended over the tip, letting the suit slice through PSA like it was butter, as the Freedom learned the hard way. At the time the Destiny was deployed, PSA was vastly more commonplace than anti-beam coating. Anti-beam coating isn't any help at all against that.
PSA has never been common place. Anti-beam coating is used on pretty much every MS in the series. Even Freedom and Impulse used it on their shields. And while Shinn might have used it to fight MSes, that's not what it was originally designed for. If anything, blame the pilot for misusing the weapon.

Quote:
Protip: Don't use generic terms for anything in a science or tech discussion. They'll get ripped to shreds immediately. The tech info for CE uses specific terms for a reason. Return the favor.
I thought beam shields was the general term. Don't act high and mighty, correct my error, and move on.

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Yes, because that's exactly what they're supposed to do! Anti-beam coating was developed to counter beam sabers:
Okay, you're just being insulting. Trying to make me look ignorant. I use an incorrect term that wasn't really that far off the mark to begin with and rather than address the point I make, you copy paste something out of wikipedia and think you've proven something? Are you really unaware of all the different MSes and weapons used in Gundam Seed?

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Every ASS, even the Arondight, had a beam blade running down the side, and I doubt even Shinn at the height of his insanity was going to try to run through a beam saber with the tip of the ASS. He almost always used it as a slashing weapon, even against MAs and ships, barring a few very rare instances where the Impulse's beam tip was far more advantageous (again, the Freedom), and the Freedom's shield might as well have been butter as far as the Impulse's ASS was concerned despite having anti-beam coating on it. Obviously, the anti-beam coating didn't do its job. There was no reason to get rid of the beam tip.
Yeah, it wasn't Impulse's forward momentum that drove the sword through. Clearly it was a tiny bit of a beam saber.

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Which kind? Lightwave? Positron Reflectors? Beam? Again, stop using generic terms.
In the most famous example, a small combat knife was used to penetrate a light wave barrier that'd been fitted to a MS. The knife was stopped at the hilt, but it worked.

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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
You do know the show makes it quite clear there is 0 difference between them, right? lol
Or at least that no difference is mentioned or portrayed.
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Old 2013-08-17, 12:24   Link #8822
cyberdemon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
180 sidenote:

If SEED Gets a movie, what kind of plot would you guys prefer? Honestly, i'd see something regarding the space whale (But i guess 00 already did that with the ELS) Or something involving the EA/Zaft actually fighting together instead of tossing out nukes on eachother like waterballoons.

Rise of the Jupiter Empire, CE style?

i'd like to see the Destiny Impulse, or atleast a Unbreakable Destiny MK II, with SF and IJ kept the way they are, Kira & Athrun gets sidelined for Shinn, Lunamaria and Cagalli being the main cast. Shinn deals with MUH FEELS in Orb while Cagalli actually supports him and tries to change his ways, Kira and Athrun shows up a few times (Think Amuro in Zeta) and dies in the end, passing on the torch to Shinn.
I'd like to see something like the Ultimate Coordinator project was never ended and continued in secret. The enemy is from that group so even Kira would have a problem with facing those who would be closer to his equal than anything else.
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Old 2013-08-17, 12:39   Link #8823
Deadpool2000
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New main character. We've had an Orb citizen and a ZAFT soldier. This time I'd like an Extended. Third generation, different limitation, he manages to fight off against it, blah blah blah.

Make the Joule team his primary antagonist. Shinn, Kira and Athrun only get involved in the climax...

Personally, I'd prefer a new show to a movie, but whatever.
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Old 2013-08-17, 13:01   Link #8824
Kuroi Hadou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
PSA has never been common place.
It's a lot more common on MS than the various energy shielding systems.

Quote:
Anti-beam coating is used on pretty much every MS in the series. Even Freedom and Impulse used it on their shields.
That worked out really well for the MSes getting swatted like flies by the units equipped with beam weapons, and let's be honest, it's easier to list the MS in Destiny that didn't have beam weapons. The anti-beam coating just isn't doing its job. Any of Kira, Rau, and Rey's beam spams come to mind, and they've shot at practically every kind of MS both series have had to offer.

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And while Shinn might have used it to fight MSes, that's not what it was originally designed for. If anything, blame the pilot for misusing the weapon.
Blame the people who supposedly studied Shinn's piloting data and didn't compensate for the pilot's proven record of "misusing the weapon."

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I thought beam shields was the general term. Don't act high and mighty, correct my error, and move on.

Okay, you're just being insulting. Trying to make me look ignorant. I use an incorrect term that wasn't really that far off the mark to begin with and rather than address the point I make, you copy paste something out of wikipedia and think you've proven something? Are you really unaware of all the different MSes and weapons used in Gundam Seed?
Now who's acting high and mighty? If I really wanted to correct you for incorrectly using terms, you'd know it. I copypasta'd that specifically to address your point and make mine, which is why I had a big block of text afterwards.

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Yeah, it wasn't Impulse's forward momentum that drove the sword through. Clearly it was a tiny bit of a beam saber.
The Impulse's ASS went clean through the Freedom. The PSA would have stopped a physical blade, anti-beam coating or no anti-beam coating. That's the whole point. Velocity only gets you so far. Let's count how many layers of armor we know that "tiny bit of beam saber" had to go through:

Anti-beam coated shield.
PSA flush against the shield in the arm.
PSA in the back of the arm.
PSA in the Freedom's torso.
PSA in the Freedom's rear torse.

Clearly that tiny bit of beam saber didn't have anything to do with it, and the Arondight clearly would have been able to do the same thing, despite at least four different layers of the Freedom's armor being specifically-designed to stop that kind of tip as opposed to just one for the Excalibur.

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In the most famous example, a small combat knife was used to penetrate a light wave barrier that'd been fitted to a MS. The knife was stopped at the hilt, but it worked.
Again, how many MS are known to be fitted with some kind of energy shield when the Destiny is rolled out? The Destiny can't stab itself; the Legend is on the Destiny's side; the SF, IJ, and DOM had never appeared before; there was no expectation of the Destroy being massed-produced given how everyone reacted when a bunch of them showed up; and the lightwave barrier you're referencing had been known about since the beginning of the first war. Of course there'd be a countermeasure for it by now.
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Old 2013-08-17, 13:06   Link #8825
Rising Dragon
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As far as the usage of anti-ship swords go, the only one to ever use one against an actual ship was Shinn, and he only did so in ONE EPISODE. Any other episode, Kira, Shinn, Rey, and Lunamaria only ever used anti-ship swords against mobile weapons. Ever. Any other ship was taken out by projectile weaponry or in one instance, a METEOR beam sword.
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Old 2013-08-17, 13:46   Link #8826
CBredbeard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
It's a lot more common on MS than the various energy shielding systems.
On ships and mobile armors, energy shields are becoming more common place. PSA is still only used on a handful of MSes, mostly proto-types at that.

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That worked out really well for the MSes getting swatted like flies by the units equipped with beam weapons, and let's be honest, it's easier to list the MS in Destiny that didn't have beam weapons. The anti-beam coating just isn't doing its job. Any of Kira, Rau, and Rey's beam spams come to mind, and they've shot at practically every kind of MS both series have had to offer.
It's better than nothing and it does work well enough that swords with a coating can parry beam sabers.

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Blame the people who supposedly studied Shinn's piloting data and didn't compensate for the pilot's proven record of "misusing the weapon."
The weapon works just fine in an environment where PSA is nearly non-existent.

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Now who's acting high and mighty? If I really wanted to correct you for incorrectly using terms, you'd know it. I copypasta'd that specifically to address your point and make mine, which is why I had a big block of text afterwards.
What point? You seemed to have missed the point I made that, Destiny's ASS is an advantageous design when dealing with energy shields, which would probably be featured on the mobile armors Destiny would have to contend with.

Quote:
The Impulse's ASS went clean through the Freedom. The PSA would have stopped a physical blade, anti-beam coating or no anti-beam coating. That's the whole point. Velocity only gets you so far. Let's count how many layers of armor we know that "tiny bit of beam saber" had to go through:

Anti-beam coated shield.
PSA flush against the shield in the arm.
PSA in the back of the arm.
PSA in the Freedom's torso.
PSA in the Freedom's rear torse.

Clearly that tiny bit of beam saber didn't have anything to do with it, and the Arondight clearly would have been able to do the same thing, despite at least four different layers of the Freedom's armor being specifically-designed to stop that kind of tip as opposed to just one for the Excalibur.
I really don't understand why you're bringing this up. If you have a problem with the idea that maybe Arondight might be designed to actually fight against the types of opponents it's intended to be used against, then you should focus on if it can do that job. Complaining that it might be sub-optimal against an opponent that's almost non-existent in the theater that Destiny is supposed to be fighting in is dumb if you ask me.

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Again, how many MS are known to be fitted with some kind of energy shield when the Destiny is rolled out? The Destiny can't stab itself; the Legend is on the Destiny's side; the SF, IJ, and DOM had never appeared before; there was no expectation of the Destroy being massed-produced given how everyone reacted when a bunch of them showed up; and the lightwave barrier you're referencing had been known about since the beginning of the first war. Of course there'd be a countermeasure for it by now.
So your counter point is that there'd be no way they'd outfit Destiny with a weapon designed to beat energy shields, even though not more than 3 episodes after Destiny is introduced, it encounters no less than 8 mobile armor units outfitted with them, all of which were units it'd previously encountered before?
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Old 2013-08-17, 14:08   Link #8827
LightMaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Actually, that's retconly speaking. Technically speaking would be about how that retcon added all this information that made the Destiny Gundam so... odd.
Technically speaking, all other VL Systems were retroactively added in after Destiny's appeared. Originally, it was the single, solitary Mobile Suit with it; before Stargazer was animated and before Strike Freedom was "officially" given it's own Wings of Light.

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And yet oddly enough they never even officially name the wings of light system used by the Destiny.
I'm not understanding what you mean, Voiture Luimere is what they're all called. Destiny is the only one that actually has a special name, that being "Wings of Light".

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supplementary material confirms that the Destiny's wing binders were based off of the Freedom's and supposedly improved upon them.
What materiel?

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As for your comment on the design being based around Shinn... well, frankly speaking, why does it look more like the Perfect Strike rather than the Destiny Impulse?
It doesn't look all that much like the Perfect Strike, the weapon placement is similar, but that might just be because it's a fairly efficient way to put all those weapons together. All the same, Impulse is based on Strike and Destiny on Impulse; Freedom, in so far as the in-show canon goes, isn't based on the Strike at all.

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The Impulse took everything about the Sword Strike and the Launcher Strike and doubled it, which the Destiny did... not.
Likely because the Destiny Silhouette showed them how inefficient and cumbersome such a design could be. Two Anti-Ship Swords, and Two Beam Cannons can't be all that light for example. Impulse only carried either set-up at a time, your asking Destiny to nearly put on the combined weight of Blast and Sword.

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All the Strike Freedom's can really do is swing upwards.
Not at all, they can pivot around on the back just like Freedom's. Sprawled on to the sides, or spread out behind like all those times you see Freedom deploy the Baleena's.

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It's hard to justify how the Strike Freedom looked just as capable because, well... Destiny was full of reused stock animation, most of which was based off of the Freedom's fully opened wings pose.
How is it hard to justify it when you just did, no justification is better then "Well, It did it in the show".

Quote:
And fully opened doesn't mean squat for "more vernier/thrusters" when it can't move in the full range of the Freedom's, whose ten wing panels means it has more thrusters than the Strike Freedom's eight, DRAGOON units or no.
False, Freedom has more wing sections, but Strike Freedom has more vernier per-section. If memory serves, the last two wing sections on either side have no noticeable engines on them- likely just there for heat dissipation or fuel storage. Comparatively, with the DRAGOON's docked, Strike Freedom has at least 4 engines per-wing. And I believe it was Mark on Mechatalk who speculated based on the wording of an entry on SF's Kit manual that even with the Remotes docked- the VL system functions in a reduced capacity.
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Old 2013-08-17, 14:20   Link #8828
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by cyberdemon View Post
I'd like to see something like the Ultimate Coordinator project was never ended and continued in secret. The enemy is from that group so even Kira would have a problem with facing those who would be closer to his equal than anything else.
Honestly that would serve no point at all, Seeing how the Mendel colony was abandoned and the " Ultimate Coordinator " never had any real meaning for the plot, except that .. well, Rau hated him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
It doesn't look all that much like the Perfect Strike, the weapon placement is similar, but that might just be because it's a fairly efficient way to put all those weapons together. All the same, Impulse is based on Strike and Destiny on Impulse; Freedom, in so far as the in-show canon goes, isn't based on the Strike at all.
in-universe canon, yes, the Destiny is based on the combat data obtained from Shinn piloting the Impulse.

The Destiny is based off scrapped Freedom designs that during the time of SEED, was too hard to animate. (I'm quite sure this gets mentioned at least once a month)



Quote:
Likely because the Destiny Silhouette showed them how inefficient and cumbersome such a design could be. Two Anti-Ship Swords, and Two Beam Cannons can't be all that light for example. Impulse only carried either set-up at a time, your asking Destiny to nearly put on the combined weight of Blast and Sword.
Weight was never a issue in SEE/D/ESTINY, scripts being turned in late is however.

Quote:
False, Freedom has more wing sections, but Strike Freedom has more vernier per-section. If memory serves, the last two wing sections on either side have no noticeable engines on them- likely just there for heat dissipation or fuel storage. Comparatively, with the DRAGOON's docked, Strike Freedom has at least 4 engines per-wing. And I believe it was Mark on Mechatalk who speculated based on the wording of an entry on SF's Kit manual that even with the Remotes docked- the VL system functions in a reduced capacity.
8 extra verniers, counting the Dragoon thrusters. Per wing
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Old 2013-08-17, 14:33   Link #8829
Rising Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
On ships and mobile armors, energy shields are becoming more common place. PSA is still only used on a handful of MSes, mostly proto-types at that.
And as such they're not really all that useful when ZAFT was hilariously quick to design a weapon that can pierce a positron deflector, which aren't as commonplace as you're lead to believe--only three mobile armors and one mobile suit used them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
It's better than nothing and it does work well enough that swords with a coating can parry beam sabers.
Since when have anti-beam coated swords against beam sabers? That's never been depicted in Gundam SEED. Hell, it's rare that we see beam sabers parry against one another, and we've seen anti-beam coated shields still take damage against beam sabers and beam swords.

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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
The weapon works just fine in an environment where PSA is nearly non-existent.
Beam weapons usually do, but any Gundam with a powerful reactor utilize Phase Shift to some degree. Just about every animated Gundam in SEED was invulnerable to physical weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
What point? You seemed to have missed the point I made that, Destiny's ASS is an advantageous design when dealing with energy shields, which would probably be featured on the mobile armors Destiny would have to contend with.
You're assuming that the tip has anti-beam coating at all, while we have no evidence or official statements that it does. It would be useful if it did, but thus far we've only seen the non-ignited tip be useful in underwater combat; otherwise anti-ship swords utilize their energy blades primarily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
I really don't understand why you're bringing this up. If you have a problem with the idea that maybe Arondight might be designed to actually fight against the types of opponents it's intended to be used against, then you should focus on if it can do that job. Complaining that it might be sub-optimal against an opponent that's almost non-existent in the theater that Destiny is supposed to be fighting in is dumb if you ask me.
Well, it certainly wasn't of much use against the Strike Freedom or the Infinite Justice, who did just fine with the far more nimble and humble beam saber--hell, the Infinite Justice slipped past the Arondight and cut off the bloody arm holding it. Athrun didn't even need to go into SEED mode to pull that feat off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
So your counter point is that there'd be no way they'd outfit Destiny with a weapon designed to beat energy shields, even though not more than 3 episodes after Destiny is introduced, it encounters no less than 8 mobile armor units outfitted with them, all of which were units it'd previously encountered before?
Well, seeing how the Destiny DOESN'T have any weapons that could actually pierce a positron deflector shield... or a beam shield at all, for that matter...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
Technically speaking, all other VL Systems were retroactively added in after Destiny's appeared. Originally, it was the single, solitary Mobile Suit with it; before Stargazer was animated and before Strike Freedom was "officially" given it's own Wings of Light.
Your point? I'm just calling out the inconsistency on the retcons when the Destiny Gundam itself is concerned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
I'm not understanding what you mean, Voiture Luimere is what they're all called. Destiny is the only one that actually has a special name, that being "Wings of Light".
Wings of light is a generic descriptive term, hikari no tsubasa, and is not the proper name of the actual system, which the Strike Freedom and Stargazer call the Voiture Lumiere system.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
What materiel?
Dengeki Data Collection: Gundam Seed Destiny, Media Works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
It doesn't look all that much like the Perfect Strike, the weapon placement is similar, but that might just be because it's a fairly efficient way to put all those weapons together. All the same, Impulse is based on Strike and Destiny on Impulse; Freedom, in so far as the in-show canon goes, isn't based on the Strike at all.
Well, let's see... red wings on the back, like the Aile Striker... the right-side mounted anti-ship sword, like the Sword Striker... the left-side mounted green beam cannon, like the Launcher Striker... on a mobile suit that is primarily in classic Gundam parade colors... no, I daresay that it matches the Perfect Strike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
Likely because the Destiny Silhouette showed them how inefficient and cumbersome such a design could be. Two Anti-Ship Swords, and Two Beam Cannons can't be all that light for example. Impulse only carried either set-up at a time, your asking Destiny to nearly put on the combined weight of Blast and Sword.
So far the only issue that anyone had with the Destiny Impulse was the power source. Its swords are the same as the Sword Impulse, which had no problem dual-wielding those, and its high-energy beam cannons actually fold over the shoulders like the Freedom Gundam's, so it can actually use both at once if it needed to. Also those cannons were smaller than the Blast Impulse's or the Destiny Gundam's single cannon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
Not at all, they can pivot around on the back just like Freedom's. Sprawled on to the sides, or spread out behind like all those times you see Freedom deploy the Baleena's.
And the original still had a much wider range of motion than that of the Strike Freedom due to its more flexible design.
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Old 2013-08-17, 14:49   Link #8830
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To be fair.... The red wings can be said to be based off the Impulse because the Force Impulse pretty much had a shrunken pack from the Aile....
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Old 2013-08-17, 14:56   Link #8831
Znozzy
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Nah, The Destiny's wings are clearly based on the aegis, seeing how they have folded and spread out modes.

You know, like a symbol for the Aegis Mobile suit and Mobile armor mode!
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Old 2013-08-17, 15:02   Link #8832
LightMaster
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Your point? I'm just calling out the inconsistency on the retcons when the Destiny Gundam itself is concerned.
It's not really inconsistent, the Destiny Gundam has a specific version of the VL. Closest relative being the Strike Freedom, all the others are developed by other organizations; Mars, the Junk Guild and DSSD respectively.

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Wings of light is a generic descriptive term, hikari no tsubasa, and is not the proper name of the actual system
I have to disagree, Wings of Light is specific to the Destiny, none of the others except for maybe the Strike Freedom's are called as such. VL is the Generic name for the entire family. Anyway, we're getting off topic; the point here is that Destiny might be the Only one with a name given beyond Voiture Lumiere.

Quote:
Dengeki Data Collection: Gundam Seed Destiny, Media Works.
One of the entries translated over on Mechatalk?

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Well, let's see... red wings on the back, like the Aile Striker... the right-side mounted anti-ship sword, like the Sword Striker... the left-side mounted green beam cannon, like the Launcher Striker... on a mobile suit that is primarily in classic Gundam parade colors... no, I daresay that it matches the Perfect Strike.
Those are all the exact same colors that the Impulse uses for it's various packs. Blast is Green, Sword is Red, Stock Impulse is Blue/baby Blue and Red. The Set-up might be similar, but again, that's likely because it's just more efficient to mount it up that way.

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So far the only issue that anyone had with the Destiny Impulse was the power source. Its swords are the same as the Sword Impulse, which had no problem dual-wielding those, and its high-energy beam cannons actually fold over the shoulders like the Freedom Gundam's, so it can actually use both at once if it needed to. Also those cannons were smaller than the Blast Impulse's or the Destiny Gundam's single cannon.
And then they decided the design of the Destiny would net them better results apparently. For whatever, unspecified reasons those may be; perhaps they decided that even offering the ability to use two Anti-Ship Swords at once was counter-intuitive to a machine built for all ranges of combat; and as such why waste the weight. Same for two beam cannons bogging it down; etc, etc. Anyway, I think you mean shorter then, Destiny's Beam Cannon is a lot smaller then those two- far sleeker and clean. Which is really the impression of the Destiny Gundam overall, cleaner and more well balanced then the Destiny Impulse.

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And the original still had a much wider range of motion than that of the Strike Freedom due to its more flexible design.
I don't agree at all, they're pretty much mounted the exact same way. Attached the backpack via a mount that can apparently rotate around, attached to that by a joint that can turn them.
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Old 2013-08-17, 15:23   Link #8833
quagmire
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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
It's not really inconsistent, the Destiny Gundam has a specific version of the VL. Closest relative being the Strike Freedom, all the others are developed by other organizations; Mars, the Junk Guild and DSSD respectively.
All of which was based off the Stargazer......

The first time we see a Voiture Lumiere system may have been the Destiny, but the order of events of the systems development is cannot be disputed. Stargazer was the first suit to feature Voiture Lumiere. Even if it didn't show up in Destiny first.....
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Old 2013-08-17, 15:39   Link #8834
Deadpool2000
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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
All of which was based off the Stargazer......

The first time we see a Voiture Lumiere system may have been the Destiny, but the order of events of the systems development is cannot be disputed. Stargazer was the first suit to feature Voiture Lumiere. Even if it didn't show up in Destiny first.....
As I recall it, the basic tech was spread among several sources FIRST, then the Stargazer was created. So that the Stargazer VL and the Destiny VL would have a common ancestor of sorts, but not be derived from each other necessarily.
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Old 2013-08-17, 15:57   Link #8835
Kuroi Hadou
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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
I have to disagree, Wings of Light is specific to the Destiny, none of the others except for maybe the Strike Freedom's are called as such. VL is the Generic name for the entire family. Anyway, we're getting off topic; the point here is that Destiny might be the Only one with a name given beyond Voiture Lumiere.
"Wings of Light" isn't exactly the most descriptive of names, and it could apply just as easily to the SF's VL system as it does the Destiny's given that's all the system is: VL propulsion. The Destiny's system just happens to have bigger wings. "Wings of Light" sounds like the developers taking a fan nickname and canonizing it because they were too lazy to come up with a proper acronym.

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Those are all the exact same colors that the Impulse uses for it's various packs. Blast is Green, Sword is Red, Stock Impulse is Blue/baby Blue and Red. The Set-up might be similar, but again, that's likely because it's just more efficient to mount it up that way.
The Destiny's entire concept came from the original ideas floated around for the Strike's successor back when SEED was still airing, not from anything the Impulse had. Single sword on the right side, single cannon on the left, beam boomerangs on the shoulders instead of the back... the Destiny's weapons don't even look like any of the Impulse's for crying out loud!

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And then they decided the design of the Destiny would net them better results apparently. For whatever, unspecified reasons those may be; perhaps they decided that even offering the ability to use two Anti-Ship Swords at once was counter-intuitive to a machine built for all ranges of combat; and as such why waste the weight. Same for two beam cannons bogging it down; etc, etc.
Shinn's performance with the Impulse prior to getting the Destiny proved how effective two ASS were, and the Destiny shouldn't have been built for all ranges anyway. Shinn almost never used the Blast Impulse, and the Destiny was designed as a pair with the Legend. It always sortied alongside it, and the latter was optimized for long-range combat. Trying to water down the Destiny's capabilities at both short and long range just gives you a suit that's subpar at every range.

That aside, the Destiny being bogged down with weight isn't much of an excuse. Look at how heavy the Legend was, and its non-VL propulsion system was able to keep up with the Strike Freedom in spite of its own weight, especially in the atmosphere. The Destiny had a VL system that should have provided more than enough thrust to counter any weight issues the Destiny Impulse's layout had. Weight isn't even mentioned as an issue with the Destiny Impulse's weapons; it was a lack of sufficient power, which the Destiny's HDNR more than fixes.

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Anyway, I think you mean shorter then, Destiny's Beam Cannon is a lot smaller then those two- far sleeker and clean.
Aesthetics does not a better weapon make. The Destiny's beam cannon might have been sleeker, but the Destiny still needed one of its hands to use it. The left hand, too. That means every time the Destiny was trying to fire it, it lost the potential use of a beam boomerang, a palm cannon, a beam shield, and its physical shield. If it had gone with an over the shoulder system like the Destiny Impulse had, that arm would have been kept free. Doubling up the beam cannons adds even more firepower to the mix, even if each shot is comparatively weaker than what the Destiny's was, because the Destiny Impulse could shoot at two targets or cluster of targets simultaneously. We already saw how effective that was with the Freedom.

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Which is really the impression of the Destiny Gundam overall, cleaner and more well balanced then the Destiny Impulse.
I'll give you cleaner. The Destiny Impulse is just ugly. Well-balanced? I have to disagree there. The Destiny Impulse was just as balanced as the Destiny was, with a lot more firepower at its disposal, despite having a power generation system that couldn't properly utilize its weapons set. Plus, one of each doesn't do much when they get used up, and they will get used up. The Destiny got called back to the Minerva to rearm itself during its first major sortie, which is when you know something went wrong in the design process. When has any other MS in CE ever been pulled off the field because it had used up all of its weapons?

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I don't agree at all, they're pretty much mounted the exact same way. Attached the backpack via a mount that can apparently rotate around, attached to that by a joint that can turn them.
Just because they're mounted the same way doesn't mean they're more flexible. The Freedom had a total of three control surfaces on each side, if you count each section of each wing. The SF only had two, and the DRAGOONs on top of that. Even in the total surface area of the wings, the advantage goes to the Freedom. The lift and drag the Freedom can create, reduce, or otherwise manipulate on a per-surface basis is vastly superior to the SF's. The Destiny is even worse than the SF compared to the Freedom in this regard.
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Old 2013-08-17, 15:59   Link #8836
LightMaster
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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
All of which was based off the Stargazer......
As Deadpool says, they're not based on the Stargazer but around the same research and basic idea. Stargazer was actually fielded after the Delta Astray was built for example, but the system on the Delta isn't anything like the one we see on Stargazer. Turn Delta is far closer to that, being that it uses a curtain of light even then it doesn't posses the ability to catch beams.

All and all, they develop along different paths at the same time; by different parents. More or less.

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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
"Wings of Light" isn't exactly the most descriptive of names.
On the contrary, it is a very apt name for a system that appears to be just that Wings made of Light. You can leave specific details to technical descriptions and such, a name just needs to capture the idea in short hand.

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The Destiny's entire concept came from the original ideas floated around for the Strike's successor back when SEED was still airing, not from anything the Impulse had.
Yes, but that hardly floats from an In-Universe perspective; but keep in mind that the Destiny is little more then a Successor to Strike anyway. Impulse is just ZAFT's take on Strike, with updated technology and a few more ideas thrown in for the sake of setting it apart. For that reason, Destiny is going to fit just as easily with Strike as it is Impulse- only difference being Impulse is built by ZAFT, and Shinn pilots it- so Impulse actually fits a lot better.

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the Destiny's weapons don't even look like any of the Impulse's for crying out loud!
Impulse had a very specific reason for mounting it's weapons on the back- they had to be part of a pack to work with it's switching, and Flyer System. Destiny Impulse fiddles with this dynamic and it's incapable of using other Silhouettes, which defeats the whole purpose of the Impulse. Destiny on the other hand, isn't designed for packs, or weapons switching at all- so you can lay it's armaments out in a far superior manner, taking advantage of the entire body- shoulders, back, hands, etc, etc. Destiny wasn't meant to look like the Impulse, nor to take it's left-overs and use them; it's meant to take the idea of being able to adjust to all sorts of conditions as seen in the Impulse and do it without a Silhouette or Striker pack system. The Cannon is smaller, sleeker and likely lighter then even one of Impulses fatter ones. The Sword folks to take up less space, like the cannon, the solid shield is smaller, etc, etc.

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Shinn's performance with the Impulse prior to getting the Destiny proved how effective two ASS were
It proved how effective they could be, sometimes, under the right conditions. He used the Sword pack sparingly for a reason, same for the Blast pack- situational at best. It's good to have, but you're not always going to need a Long Range beam cannon, or an Anti-Ship Sword... so why give 'em two of each, one is good enough for any likely situation.

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Shinn almost never used the Blast Impulse, and the Destiny was designed as a pair with the Legend.
The Destiny was designed for Shinn, and Shinn alone- they weren't designed as a pair despite what happened with them always launching together.

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Trying to water down the Destiny's capabilities at both short and long range just gives you a suit that's subpar at every range.
That's ridiculous, the Destiny isn't sub-par at any range- It might not excel at long range like Strike Freedom, or Close Range like Infinite Justice- but the point is for it to be the jack-of-all-trades.

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That aside, the Destiny being bogged down with weight isn't much of an excuse.
It's a valid reason, why waste weight when you don't need it; you're giving up speed and mobility. Realistically if you add another Beam Cannon, another Sword the Destiny wouldn't be as quick as it was when we saw it- it's more mass, it'd lose speed. They likely wouldn't take care to show it in the animation, same thrust, more mass, equals less acceleration, and speed. Can't move more weight with the same energy and expect the same result.

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Aesthetics does not a better weapon make.
A slimmer weapon means less weight, and less space taken up-better weight distribution, so on into things most designers won't take into account for a children's cartoon.

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Well-balanced? I have to disagree there. The Destiny Impulse was just as balanced as the Destiny was
Not even, the DI was bulky and honestly a clusterfuck of a design, everything packed onto it's back like that. As the information says, they'd get better performance out of a Purpose Built unit from scratch, and thus we have the Destiny. We can only assume that to this goal they designed the armaments as such.

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he Destiny got called back to the Minerva to rearm itself during its first major sortie, which is when you know something went wrong in the design process.
That was the excuse Ray used to get Shinn to come back before he got himself killed, Destiny could still carry on just as well as any other Mobile Suit. It was in far better shape then Freedom at the end of SEED. Still had it's Rifle and Shield, and mostly that's all you need on a battlefield so long as a Kira or Athrun isn't around.

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The lift and drag the Freedom can create, reduce, or otherwise manipulate on a per-surface basis is vastly superior to the SF's. The Destiny is even worse than the SF compared to the Freedom in this regard.
The Freedom does not use those wings to create lift, they are not lift devices at all- they can create drag or re-position the thrusters mounted on them. The HiMAT description on ol' GO specifically states they're not lift-surfaces or aerodynamic bodies of any kind.

Last edited by LightMaster; 2013-08-17 at 16:45.
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Old 2013-08-18, 01:46   Link #8837
Rising Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
On the contrary, it is a very apt name for a system that appears to be just that Wings made of Light. You can leave specific details to technical descriptions and such, a name just needs to capture the idea in short hand.
It's still not an official name designation for its system, and as far as I can tell it never HAS had an official designation, unlike the retcon for the Strike Freedom's wings of light.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
Yes, but that hardly floats from an In-Universe perspective; but keep in mind that the Destiny is little more then a Successor to Strike anyway. Impulse is just ZAFT's take on Strike, with updated technology and a few more ideas thrown in for the sake of setting it apart. For that reason, Destiny is going to fit just as easily with Strike as it is Impulse- only difference being Impulse is built by ZAFT, and Shinn pilots it- so Impulse actually fits a lot better.
You're forgetting the crucial element of combat experience and battle instincts. The Destiny looks like it was created for Kira, rather than Shinn, and its weapon layout shows.

Or, given the retcon in ORB during the last remaster, it looks like it was created for Mu, rather than Shinn...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
Impulse had a very specific reason for mounting it's weapons on the back- they had to be part of a pack to work with it's switching, and Flyer System. Destiny Impulse fiddles with this dynamic and it's incapable of using other Silhouettes, which defeats the whole purpose of the Impulse. Destiny on the other hand, isn't designed for packs, or weapons switching at all- so you can lay it's armaments out in a far superior manner, taking advantage of the entire body- shoulders, back, hands, etc, etc. Destiny wasn't meant to look like the Impulse, nor to take it's left-overs and use them; it's meant to take the idea of being able to adjust to all sorts of conditions as seen in the Impulse and do it without a Silhouette or Striker pack system. The Cannon is smaller, sleeker and likely lighter then even one of Impulses fatter ones. The Sword folks to take up less space, like the cannon, the solid shield is smaller, etc, etc.
Well, let's see... with the boomerangs, the Destiny still has to reach over and grab them to use them, so shoulders or back, that's not much of an improvement... the Arondight is overly large when the Excalibur would've sufficed (and hey, you could easily build the same folding mechanism into it as a variant and saved even MORE space)... wing placement on the Destiny gives it a remarkably large profile, making it a bit easier to hit, all things considered... 'bout the only real improvement is the design of its beam cannon and the beam shields. Which again has its own pros and cons listed elsewhere. Everything else is just a huge tradeoff of one problem for another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
It proved how effective they could be, sometimes, under the right conditions. He used the Sword pack sparingly for a reason, same for the Blast pack- situational at best. It's good to have, but you're not always going to need a Long Range beam cannon, or an Anti-Ship Sword... so why give 'em two of each, one is good enough for any likely situation.
Because that's how he bloody operated with the Impulse. His training and experience were molded by Silhouette packs that doubled up on everything--two swords, two cannons, so on and so forth. Yet the Destiny forces him to switch to one sword, one cannon. And ya know what? Shinn started to suffer in battle after acquiring the Destiny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
That's ridiculous, the Destiny isn't sub-par at any range- It might not excel at long range like Strike Freedom, or Close Range like Infinite Justice- but the point is for it to be the jack-of-all-trades.
The Destiny had an over-emphasis on close range combat despite being meant for any range. Giant sword, beam boomerangs (classic melee-suit weaponry in SEED) that double as beam sabers, hand cannons...

Yet it only ever uses the giant sword (which proved hilariously ineffective against its two main contenders, the Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice), and the hand cannons (which are in severe danger of getting destroyed when a beam saber would've been better) and it NEVER used the beam saber function of its boomerangs. And for that matter, the Arondight's bulky length in battle proves to be a hinderance rather than a boon. It is massive, and thus results in that it easily telegraphs its swings, where a beam saber is far more quick and far more mobile.

Most instances of Shinn using it against another melee-capable machine proved disastrous: Kira easily caught it in his shields, leaving Shinn wide open for a killshot had Kira been any less moral. Athrun was able to slip his blades past the cumbersome blade and detach the whole arm, which makes the Arondight impossible to use, not to mention causing the Destiny to lose access to one beam saber and one hand cannon AND one beam shield.

And as a result it lost emphasis on long range. It had none of the Blast Silhouette's versatility with its missiles and railguns. It had a beam rifle and a beam cannon. Lose both and the Destiny lost any range capacity it has, leaving it with only melee-type weaponry. And if it lost the left arm, it lost its heavy cannon--whereas on, say, the Destiny Impulse or the Blast Impulse, this wouldn't have been much of a problem--extra gun, shoulder-mounted cannons, missile launchers...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
It's a valid reason, why waste weight when you don't need it; you're giving up speed and mobility. Realistically if you add another Beam Cannon, another Sword the Destiny wouldn't be as quick as it was when we saw it- it's more mass, it'd lose speed. They likely wouldn't take care to show it in the animation, same thrust, more mass, equals less acceleration, and speed. Can't move more weight with the same energy and expect the same result.

A slimmer weapon means less weight, and less space taken up-better weight distribution, so on into things most designers won't take into account for a children's cartoon.
Yet the wings of light system would've negated weight issues, wouldn't it? That's what everyone else is saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
Not even, the DI was bulky and honestly a clusterfuck of a design, everything packed onto it's back like that. As the information says, they'd get better performance out of a Purpose Built unit from scratch, and thus we have the Destiny. We can only assume that to this goal they designed the armaments as such.
You uh... you do realize that the Destiny's equipment very nearly matched the Destiny Impulse's, right? The majority of its weaponry were still stored on the back of the machine. Sword mounted on back, cannon mounted on back... the boomerangs were still mounted on the arms, just in a slightly different location... and for the most part the profile LOOKED THE FUCKING SAME.

So no, it's hardly a clusterfuck. Unless you want to call the Destiny a clusterfuck as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
That was the excuse Ray used to get Shinn to come back before he got himself killed, Destiny could still carry on just as well as any other Mobile Suit. It was in far better shape then Freedom at the end of SEED. Still had it's Rifle and Shield, and mostly that's all you need on a battlefield so long as a Kira or Athrun isn't around.
Ya generally need legs too. And arms. Both of which the Destiny was lacking by the end of its run.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
The Freedom does not use those wings to create lift, they are not lift devices at all- they can create drag or re-position the thrusters mounted on them. The HiMAT description on ol' GO specifically states they're not lift-surfaces or aerodynamic bodies of any kind.


You were saying?

Do you know what lift even is? The whole bloody point of having wings is for lift. The Freedom Gundam is not powered by a GN-Drive, it cannot casually violate the laws of aerodynamics like any GN-Drive mobile suit can. Its wings will create lift no matter what, unless it is located in outer space.
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Old 2013-08-18, 07:38   Link #8838
Jenova.
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Just a little cents about seed and seed destiny

Quote:
Imo , Seed are a lot better from Destiny ..

I've watch both of UC series and CE series .. Maybe CE plot have a simmiliar of with the uc series ..
But i think , without too much fan service , Seed and Seed Destiny are not to bad as lot of people think ..

For Seed ,

I enjoyed to watch the earlier episode from the series , since the destroyed of aegis and strike , and start of the ORB + Lacus damn hypocrite era , its getting sucks ..

Crybaby kira in the earlier ep is more realistic than the hypocrite kira in the later until the seed destiny


For Seed Destiny ,

It just like a Kira + Athrun fan service series .. Lot of fan service and lack of char building make this series really worst ..

- The phantom pain trio Sting , Auel and stellar is suck , they r god damn too weak for a major villain in the series .. Stellar is only made to be CE's Four Murasame ..
- if the Earth Army is goin advance for their extended human tech , how can the phantom pain trio is weaker than the ols generation ? ( orga , shani and clotho ) .. The old generation can almost match whole of the protagonist in the last battle , but the new gen ? Even Yzak can kick sting and auel ass easily without his Duel
- how can the best ship among the ZAFT army has only an amateur n weak crew among the series ?
- what in the heck of Gil's mind when he place the amateur rey and luna as the "ace team" on ZAFT Army when he still have Yzak and Dearka ? Hell , both of them ( Yzak and Dearka ) are the living witness from the last battle , and if it goes from the original plot , they must be the best that ZAFT had on the destiny era
- Mwu is one char from CE timeline , his heroic moment in the last seed battle is one of the most epic moment from the seed series .. I lost my respect for this damn good chara when they plan to "ressurect" him in seed destiny .. Just let him and Andrew Waltfield die as a hero ( even andy is a villain )
- they want ressurect Rau and his Providence who even die , it can smash freedom into pieces . But Rey and Legend is destroy into pieces by Kira + Strike Freedom without every single scratch

My little correction for this series maybe ,

- bring back shinn as main char
- not make athrun have too much action
- kick luna , rey and the minerva crew , just bring back the Zala Team in GS reunite + shinn as the junior pilot
- never ressurect mwu
- make a better and stronger villain
- KILL KIRA
- KILL LACUS
- LET SAHAKU'S PAWN CAGALI AT THE GOVERMENT
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Old 2013-08-18, 12:45   Link #8839
Aquaman OS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Weight was never a issue in SEE/D/ESTINY, scripts being turned in late is however.
That had nothing to do with how Destiny was designed. The design was finalized and started appearing in ads, long before the script problems became an issue.
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Old 2013-08-18, 13:18   Link #8840
Znozzy
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Join Date: Aug 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
That had nothing to do with how Destiny was designed. The design was finalized and started appearing in ads, long before the script problems became an issue.
i was simply pointing out that weight issues was never mentioned in SEE/D/ESTINY

Scripts being turned in however, was a issue with the show

See what i mean?

It had nothing to do with the design at all. lol
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