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Old 2013-08-21, 00:40   Link #8881
cyberdemon
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
As I stated earlier, Terminal is far more capable than people give it credit for, especially when they have access to something like the Eternal, and allies within ORB. Someone as prepared as Durandal should've been well aware how capable it is. And either way: it was awfully convenient of Durandal to have a mobile suit based off of the Freedom's other archnemesis ready to deploy by the time the Strike Freedom and the Infinite Justice appeared.
It's not just allies in ORB. Terminal has members from both ZAFT and the EA that weren't part of the tsa during the first war since there were many who defected from their respective sides afterwards due to the atrocities both sides committed by both sides. Many who defected probably had access to info like the strike freedom when they left. a search for moles from Terminal would be problematic for Durandal as well since a witch hunt would only further divide ZAFT and bring more attention to his plans than he would want. Especially since he's using a fake Lacus so hunting terminal members would be almost screaming she is fake since she is the head of terminal.
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Old 2013-08-21, 00:53   Link #8882
monster
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
Luna fought Athrun in the IJ, too, and she had the Impulse at the time. Guess which suit took less damage. Hint: It wasn't piloted by a male.
I'm pretty sure that's more Shinn's fault rather than the Destiny's.
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
The first time, perhaps. Shinn went up against the SF and IJ multiple times, and his combat performance against them never improved. Compare that to the Destroys, where Shinn was trashing them left and right after a single encounter with one. Admittedly, the Destroy already had its fatal weakness exposed and the SF had never been fielded before, but at the end of the day Shinn was still dealing with the same pilot whose combat tactics he had already studied extensively. Combat tactics Kira was still using.
In a way, this seems to further validate the idea that Kira was not taking it seriously against Shinn in the Impulse.

The other factor to consider is that, aside from reflecting the beam shot on the shield and dodging some of Kira's attacks, Shinn had to rely on the Impulse's modular design for his other offensive/defensive moves against Kira in the Freedom.

So it's still a good thing that Shinn in the Destiny (without the benefit of a modular design) still managed to go 3 rounds against a more focused Kira in the Strike Freedom with no damage to the Destiny's body. Unfortunately, it didn't work so well against Athrun in the Infinite Justice.
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Old 2013-08-21, 01:00   Link #8883
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
Destiny has two if you count the beam rifle, unless we're just classifying that as a mid-range weapon because it doesn't specifically say "long range" on it. If we did that, though, we'd have to classify all of the SF's beam weapons as not long-range either because only the combined beam rifles are actually named "long-range."
Very true, i stand corrected. Both the Destiny and SF have the same amount of Long range weapons.

No but, to be honest, Shinn wasn't really a long range kind of guy to begin with, even back when he had the Impulse agianst the 30 windams, we see the idiot pull out his beam saber at the first possible moment.

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Just having one howitzer in the field doesn't mean its suddenly fulfilling a sniper role. Kira's the one using precision targeting to get the maximum effectiveness with the least amount of collateral damage, and he never misses what he's aiming for. The fact he's using more guns doesn't make him any less of a sniper. Shinn's the one trying to wreck everything within his line of sight. Much like a howitzer.
My opinion differs, Kira is acting more like a howitzer, seeing how he disables suits left and right on the battlefield, while Shinn just cuts things apart, Honestly, it's pretty moot, if we go by killcount, Kira wins, if we don't, well, Shinn honestly has nothing he brings to the table. lol

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So... we should praise the Destiny for its effectiveness against some of the worst mecha grunts ever, but... it's a Gundam so its effectiveness is guaranteed anyway? I think your points just mutually negated each other.
Hey now - The Destiny is a fine mobile suit, i'm not going to say its not, the show hardly made it clear though, seeing how he only went up against Athrun and Kira, which was way out of his league in the end.

And of course it's going to perform well if its called a Gundam in the CE'verse, if you call it a gundam, grunts randomly blows up if it even glazes it

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No, the pack idea in CE agrees with me. None of the Strike's packs, or the Impulse's, slap on a single weapon and say "here, go kill stuff at X range." The Launcher Strike had multiple long-range weapons. The Blast Impulse had multiple long-range weapons
Impulse's packs do, Strike packs does not.

Sword striker carries no long range weapons, only a Sword, grappling hook and beam boomerang, they are all close-mid range at the most

Launcher striker carries the Long range cannon and Ciws mounted on the shoulder part, including two missiles/rockets, it's clearly aimed for mid-long range seeing how it carries no melee weapons except the Strike's armor schneiders

The Impulse's packs do fix those issues, it carries melee weapons regardless of the pack it uses, and it always has it's beam rifle aswell, basically negating the downsides of the Striker packs making the Impulse, regardless of pack be able to fight at pretty much every range, only enhancing those capabilities with a pack equipped
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Old 2013-08-21, 07:54   Link #8884
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
I'm pretty sure that's more Shinn's fault rather than the Destiny's. In a way, this seems to further validate the idea that Kira was not taking it seriously against Shinn in the Impulse.
Shinn's a jobber. Most of his notable victories his opponents acted like retards. Kira didn't even start shooting back until several minutes into the battle and failed to use most of his weapons or speed. Ayle and the Zamza-zah froze up and stopped fighting, virtually letting Shinn kill them.
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Old 2013-08-21, 12:12   Link #8885
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
I'm pretty sure that's more Shinn's fault rather than the Destiny's. In a way, this seems to further validate the idea that Kira was not taking it seriously against Shinn in the Impulse.

The other factor to consider is that, aside from reflecting the beam shot on the shield and dodging some of Kira's attacks, Shinn had to rely on the Impulse's modular design for his other offensive/defensive moves against Kira in the Freedom.

So it's still a good thing that Shinn in the Destiny (without the benefit of a modular design) still managed to go 3 rounds against a more focused Kira in the Strike Freedom with no damage to the Destiny's body. Unfortunately, it didn't work so well against Athrun in the Infinite Justice.
I'll take that as, "Kira really underestimated Shinn". Shinn also highly motivated by Stella's death during his fight with Kira.
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Old 2013-08-21, 13:40   Link #8886
monster
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Originally Posted by Washu-Chan View Post
I'll take that as, "Kira really underestimated Shinn". Shinn also highly motivated by Stella's death during his fight with Kira.
Sure, you can take it like that. Kira certainly didn't expect Shinn to dodge Kira's attack in their second encounter after Shinn allowed Kira to cut off one of Impulse's arms in their first encounter. Then, in their third encounter, Shinn behaved in a strange manner that almost got himself killed.

So, from, Kira's perspective, there wasn't much to expect from the pilot of the Impulse.

And yes, Stella's death is certainly a major factor in Shinn's drive to beat the Freedom.

So, as I was saying, it's understandable if Shinn did not fare as well in the Destiny against Kira in the Strike Freedom. Shinn still managed to hold his own.
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Old 2013-08-21, 14:09   Link #8887
quagmire
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About the only thing that surprised me in the Kira vs Shinn battle was that Kira never noticed that Shinn knew where he aims at. Then again I guess the age old excuse of him being distracted/not taking the fight seriously can be used for that....
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Old 2013-08-21, 14:26   Link #8888
CBredbeard
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The thing is all Kira used were shots from his beam rifle. Kira didn't use his rail guns. He didn't use his plasma cannons. If Kira had mixed things up even a little bit, Shinn would have been rocked, but Kira remained very predictable throughout the entire encounter and fought like had his arms tied to his chest. If you really pay attention to the whole thing you can count the number of shots Kira fired at Shinn on both hands. The number of times he swung his beam saber on one.

And this was fairly typical of fights where Shinn won. His opponents just throw up their hands and roll over for him.
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Old 2013-08-21, 14:29   Link #8889
cyberdemon
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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
About the only thing that surprised me in the Kira vs Shinn battle was that Kira never noticed that Shinn knew where he aims at. Then again I guess the age old excuse of him being distracted/not taking the fight seriously can be used for that....
Kira probably did notice but that won't change where Kira aims at. Plus in that fight his concern was on the AA not beating Shinn. Sure he can disable Shinn but Shinn can just keep replacing parts so it really just came down to keeping him away from the AA until it got away. Shinn was probably much more dangerous to the AA than the Minerva was. and because Kira didn't view them as necessarily bad, he would refuse to kill them. Shinn definitely got some good hits in during the fight but they aren't really ones he would get in if Kira truly took the fight seriously instead of just fighting to hold off Shinn until the AA got away.
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Old 2013-08-21, 17:18   Link #8890
quagmire
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Originally Posted by cyberdemon View Post
Kira probably did notice but that won't change where Kira aims at. Plus in that fight his concern was on the AA not beating Shinn. Sure he can disable Shinn but Shinn can just keep replacing parts so it really just came down to keeping him away from the AA until it got away. Shinn was probably much more dangerous to the AA than the Minerva was. and because Kira didn't view them as necessarily bad, he would refuse to kill them. Shinn definitely got some good hits in during the fight but they aren't really ones he would get in if Kira truly took the fight seriously instead of just fighting to hold off Shinn until the AA got away.
I'm not saying Kira should have changed where he aims at, but you have to change something when you figure out the enemy has you read. Pull moves like he did when he destroyed the Saviour or Chaos. Kira only did one fancy move on Shinn and that was when he chopped the head off the Impulse.

I think you're right in that it was just a game of keep away until the AA escaped.
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Old 2013-08-21, 17:42   Link #8891
Rising Dragon
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Pretty sure Kira didn't destroy the Chaos. Murasames did that.
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Old 2013-08-21, 18:07   Link #8892
LightMaster
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
No, the pack idea in CE agrees with me. None of the Strike's packs, or the Impulse's, slap on a single weapon and say "here, go kill stuff at X range." The Launcher Strike had multiple long-range weapons. The Blast Impulse had multiple long-range weapons
The Launcher Strike had one Long Range weapon- the "Agni" Beam Cannon. The Shoulder Weapon pod was meant for Mid-to-Close Range combat. This is the same idea with Blast Impulse, except maybe with the concession that the Rail Guns have an equal range to the Beam Cannons. You're ignoring the Gunner ZAKU though, which has solely the Long Range Orthos Beam Cannon for it's fire-support role.

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I never said the F-18 wasn't a good plane.
Did you not mean Fighter Planes when you said all the Fighters designed for Multi-Role were terrible?

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Dogfighting, and ground attack.
That's what makes it a "Multirole" aircraft...

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fighters are rarely equipped for more than one dedicated role at a time.
But that's exactly what your picture shows, it's equipped for BVR and WVR combat. The AMRAAMs are the F-18's Beam Cannon and Beam Rifle, the Sidewinders it's Beam Rifle, and the Vulcan it's Beam Sabers.

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Not even the F-18 is going to want to get within... oh... half a mile of another fighter because none of its missiles, even the Sidewinders meant for short-range, are effective within that half-mile distance. All it has to fall back on is the vulcan, and that's a last resort that only has a few bursts in it, and once it's out of ammo, it's weaponless.
But the F-18 would be great in a turning battle because of it's low stall speed. And when you hit a plane with that Vulcan it's damned near over, missiles have a much, much, much smaller effective hit percentage then a gun.

All that aside though, your point is made moot by the fact that a Beam Saber doesn't run out of ammo, at least not when you have a reactor. And the fact that despite the fact that most modern planes aren't especially designed for dogfighting with their Cannons- they still carry them just in case.

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The Sword and Blast packs wouldn't have had nearly as much of a problem
The Sword and Blast packs would have had more trouble, because sword is woefully under and poorly equipped to deal with a proper CQC threat- we see that when Sting cuts the Excalibur in half. Athrun chops Shinn's Arondight in half, or his arm- another big honking sword wouldn't have made that any better. Shit, he'd have been utterly stumped and out of luck during the final battle when he switched from Kira to Athrun.

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Luna fought Athrun in the IJ, too, and she had the Impulse at the time.
That is solely because Athrun decided to go easy on her, and because Shinn interjected.

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So... now the WoL isn't a more powerful thruster?
You're dense as heck man, THE DESTINY'S WoL HAVE A FINITE AMOUNT OF THRUST, IF YOU ADD WEIGHT WITHOUT INCREASING THAT THRUST IT WILL GET SLOWER.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Sorry, try again--they used it as a descriptive term rather than an actual system name like the Voiture Lumiere is a system name.
Do you not know how English works or something. it did not say "Like Wings of Light". It said the "The Wings of Light emitted from the Wing Units", it is what they are.

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Whereas Shinn's strength in combat is his ability to analyze the battlefield on the fly. As we saw before, once he put his mind to eliminating Kira's tactics, he was able to bring him down. Why shouldn't he be able to overcome Athrun or Kira by using his brain?
Dude, seriously, he ran numerous simulations against the Freedom and kept losing. It wasn't until Rey sat down beside him and pointed out the fact that Freedom always aims to disable that he got anywhere. Who knows how deeply Rey was involved with the strategy used in Operation Angel Down.

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Yeah, and it happened because it went up against a mobile suit with a proper melee focus
It happened because Athrun is better then Shinn, he should be. Short of making the Destiny a melee focused machine wouldn't have solved your supposed problem and that completely defeats the purpose of the Destiny in the first place.

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Add in melee-range beam cannons in the hands and the Arondight and you've got it so that the majority of the Destiny's weapons are melee-based
Again, it has a Long Range Beam Cannon- it is not a melee focused unit.

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So far the Strike Noir and Destiny Impulse are better examples of multi-purpose all-range mobile suits, as they have a roughly even range of weaponry for its distances, as well as weapon placements that don't rely in arms for ranged weaponry should something happen in a melee battle.
The Noir has no long-range weapons as-standard; only mid-to-short and ALL of it's weapons aside from the over the back rail guns require the hands. Destiny Impulse has an incredible one more Beam Cannon that doesn't require the arms to fire; it still losses the beam shields, rifle, swords and boomerang/sabers if it gets it's arms cut off in melee combat.

Literally there is so little difference it's staggering, chances are you lose your arm in melee you're dead if you stay fighting. They'll just chase you down and take advantage.

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Even a surprise attack could cripple a melee-heavy mobile suit--remember how the Strike was able to overpower the Aegis and take off one of its arms? Despite the fact that the Aegis, design-wise, was a better melee combatant?
So you're point is that there isn't any real point to trying especially to guard against losing a limb or weapon because that shits going to happen anyway?

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Dual cannons results in a wider chance of hitting a moving target.
Pffft. Not especially, rapid fire results in a better chance of hitting a moving target. More cannons just means when you do hit, you hit harder. Shinn didn't especially prove the effectiveness of double cannons, and this can be easily proven by the Destiny itself. Plus the fact that whenever he used the Double Cannons, they weren't all that hard to evade unless he surprise attacked people...which he could have done with one.

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It also results in making it easier to deal with multiple enemies should they appear.
Sure, but Shinn never showed an affinity for using his weapons like that. He could have fired the Beam Rifle and Beam Cannon in the Destiny at the same time for example- taking out multiple enemies at once; never did. Same for Blast, he shot one at a time- there is no point to including extra cannons for him.

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You're awfully focused on this weight issue when the Destiny and Destiny Impulse never had an issue with it due to its powerful propulsion systems, y'know. As was said before, the Destiny Impulse did not suffer from a weight issue, and chances are the two mobile suits are roughly even weight-wise.
This is simply physics, you add weight, but no thrust- you lose mobility. I'm not saying Destiny had weight issues, I'm saying it'd lose mobility if you add weight but don't increase the thrust. Give it another sword, it won't be as fast as it was without it- same with another cannon.

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Yet Durandal by nature is the type to always plan ahead for bad surprises, and he was already questioning whether or not Athrun would remain an enemy.
He literally offered the Legend to Athrun, he was not building a Mobile Suit to defeat him.

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The Excalibur's size wasn't an issue as far as storage was confirmed, however.
Apparently Destiny's Designers disagree

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Arondight's case, its superior reach does not result in a superior damage capability--its tip is a hindrance in combat as it is unable to pierce Phase Shift armor--it might be able to deal with beams if it has anti-beam coating, but I find that unlikely.
Superior length is always going to results in superior damage capability, it is how a lever works. It's Swings are stronger then a shorter sword, not even counting how heavy it must be. As for Phase Shift, it kind of has the Beam Edge for that unlikely problem, and Beam Sabers otherwise. It can cut clean through 90% of the enemies out there. It's like getting down on the fact that the F-18 carries the Sidewinder because of the range, when it's pretty much always going to carry the AMRAAM for longer ranges.

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If it can't puncture Phase Shift Armor, then a mobile suit equipped with it could let the Destiny hit it with the tip, stopping it cold and leaving the Destiny open to attack.
That's not even how it works, IJ got smacked the fuck back when it got hit by that sword- Phase Shift doesn't negate kinetic energy.
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Old 2013-08-21, 19:11   Link #8893
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
The Launcher Strike had one Long Range weapon- the "Agni" Beam Cannon. The Shoulder Weapon pod was meant for Mid-to-Close Range combat. This is the same idea with Blast Impulse, except maybe with the concession that the Rail Guns have an equal range to the Beam Cannons. You're ignoring the Gunner ZAKU though, which has solely the Long Range Orthos Beam Cannon for it's fire-support role.
Already explained the discrepency in the Gunner Wizard pack. Go reread it.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
You're dense as heck man, THE DESTINY'S WoL HAVE A FINITE AMOUNT OF THRUST, IF YOU ADD WEIGHT WITHOUT INCREASING THAT THRUST IT WILL GET SLOWER.
Yet, the wings of light are based off of the Voiture Lumiere's, so theoretically... no they don't. At least not in space.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
Do you not know how English works or something. it did not say "Like Wings of Light". It said the "The Wings of Light emitted from the Wing Units", it is what they are.
I'm as familiar with it as you are, perhaps moreso if you can't grasp this concept. It's still a bloody descriptive term. You describe it as "wings of light". Nevertheless, "wings of light" are not a proper name for the system that PRODUCES said phenomenon. The Strike Freedom also has wings of light, but the system that produces it is called "Voiture Lumiere". This is what they never bothered to do to the Destiny, they forgot or didn't care enough to properly name the system... unlike damn near everything they do for any other Gundam in the series.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
Dude, seriously, he ran numerous simulations against the Freedom and kept losing. It wasn't until Rey sat down beside him and pointed out the fact that Freedom always aims to disable that he got anywhere. Who knows how deeply Rey was involved with the strategy used in Operation Angel Down.
And as such he was able to overcome a powerful enemy by analyzing them--like he did with Kira, he saw that the Destroy had a crippling weakness and exploited it, and made sure others did the same.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
It happened because Athrun is better then Shinn, he should be. Short of making the Destiny a melee focused machine wouldn't have solved your supposed problem and that completely defeats the purpose of the Destiny in the first place.
If it was solely a matter of who was better than the other, then Athrun would've defeated Shinn using that GOUF Ignited earlier in the show--he did not. If you're in an inferior machine up against a skilled opponent in a superior machine, it's very, very unlikely you'll win. Once Athrun got a proper machine, he was able to utterly wreck Shinn, and part of that reason is because his machine was simply better at close-range combat than the Destiny.

Its weapons were poorly placed as far as melee goes, and its one long-range cannon is hardly enough to give it an even focus on ranged combat, so the Destiny itself defeats its own purpose in the first place.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
Again, it has a Long Range Beam Cannon- it is not a melee focused unit.
And the Infinite Justice has two beam cannons and a beam rifle, but everyone agrees that it's a melee-focused mobile suit. The Sword Calamity has a multi-phase beam cannon, but everyone agrees that it's a melee-focused mobile suit.

Just because you slap on a single ranged cannon on a mobile suit that has FIVE melee-based weapons doesn't not mean that the mobile suit is no longer melee-focused. The Destiny has far more strength in melee combat than ranged combat, but simply had poor choices for weapon design in those weapons.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
The Noir has no long-range weapons as-standard; only mid-to-short and ALL of it's weapons aside from the over the back rail guns require the hands. Destiny Impulse has an incredible one more Beam Cannon that doesn't require the arms to fire; it still losses the beam shields, rifle, swords and boomerang/sabers if it gets it's arms cut off in melee combat.
It's still is more evenly focused between ranged and melee combat than the Destiny Gundam. It has a more even blend of weaponry between the rifle, linear guns, pistols, arrestor rockets, and beam swords. The Destiny, on the other hand, has a much heavier focus on close-range combat, and went so far as to fail to utilize its ranged weaponry at longer ranges that said weapons were designed for.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
Literally there is so little difference it's staggering, chances are you lose your arm in melee you're dead if you stay fighting. They'll just chase you down and take advantage.
Maybe, maybe not. The loss of an arm didn't prevent the Aegis from incapacitating the Strike or doing decent damage to it. The loss of an arm didn't prevent the Freedom from taking out the Providence, nor did the loss of an arm prevent the Providence from doing severe damage to the Freedom. Similarly, the loss of an arm didn't ensure the Destiny from getting completely destroyed at first, but it did lose enough of its combat capability to the point where it could no longer reliably fight in a battle.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
So you're point is that there isn't any real point to trying especially to guard against losing a limb or weapon because that shits going to happen anyway?
My point is that the Destiny's weapon design and placement was a poor choice for a melee-combat mobile suit. Anything can happen in a battle. We saw that with the Aegis when it went up against the Strike for the last time, but hey--its melee design showed that despite the loss of an arm, it still had ways of fighting against the Strike, it had three bloody sabers and one mounted cannon it could've used.

The Destiny? It loses an arm and it loses a great deal of its weaponry and makes it harder to use others. Loses the right arm? There goes 33% of its defensive capabilities and nearly as much of its offensive capabilities. Loses the left arm? There goes 66% of its defensive capabilities and yet more of its offensive capabilities than if it had lost the left arm!

If you did the same to the Infinite Justice or the Strike Freedom, it loses just as much defensive ability but retains the majority of its offensive capability, since they don't need to rely on its arms just to use most of their weapons

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
Pffft. Not especially, rapid fire results in a better chance of hitting a moving target. More cannons just means when you do hit, you hit harder. Shinn didn't especially prove the effectiveness of double cannons, and this can be easily proven by the Destiny itself. Plus the fact that whenever he used the Double Cannons, they weren't all that hard to evade unless he surprise attacked people...which he could have done with one.
You're right, rapid-fire does result in a better chance of hitting a moving target if you're aiming properly. But that's just one method out of many--in the right hands, the tactic I proposed is equally viable, and presents other options in battle beyond just hitting a fast-moving target. Just as rapid-fire presents other options in battle beyond just hitting a fast-moving target. One tactic isn't just better than the other.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
Sure, but Shinn never showed an affinity for using his weapons like that. He could have fired the Beam Rifle and Beam Cannon in the Destiny at the same time for example- taking out multiple enemies at once; never did. Same for Blast, he shot one at a time- there is no point to including extra cannons for him.
Going by this logic, there was no need to give him the long-range beam cannon at all, because Shinn had no affinity for using such weapons. Which only further reinforces the idea that the Destiny Gundam was a testbed first and foremost, and then tweaked to fit Shinn's settings.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
This is simply physics, you add weight, but no thrust- you lose mobility. I'm not saying Destiny had weight issues, I'm saying it'd lose mobility if you add weight but don't increase the thrust. Give it another sword, it won't be as fast as it was without it- same with another cannon.
If the two cannons used by the Destiny Impulse equal that of the single cannon of the Destiny, then there's no real loss of mobility. In fact, those cannons have what could very well be thrusters attached that would add thrusters, making it even faster! And again, as far as the wings of light are concerned, the Destiny had more thrust and mobility power despite being heavier than any of the Impulse's Silhouette pack forms.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
He literally offered the Legend to Athrun, he was not building a Mobile Suit to defeat him.
As a test--he was seeing whether or not he could count on Athrun to fight for him. If he agreed, swell--he had an accomplished, experienced pilot in a machine based off of one that maimed the mighty Freedom Gundam in single combat. If not--he already had a pilot who could make use of the unique features of a mobile suit based off of one that maimed the mighty Freedom Gundam in single combat. It's too contrived to be a coincidence.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
Apparently Destiny's Designers disagree
Not really. They opted to make an even larger weapon that required folding just to be stored--that doesn't mean that the Excalibur's size was a problem.

And frankly speaking, after the subpar performance of the Destiny as a whole, I wouldn't be surprised if the Destiny's designers got fired.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
Superior length is always going to results in superior damage capability, it is how a lever works. It's Swings are stronger then a shorter sword, not even counting how heavy it must be. As for Phase Shift, it kind of has the Beam Edge for that unlikely problem, and Beam Sabers otherwise. It can cut clean through 90% of the enemies out there. It's like getting down on the fact that the F-18 carries the Sidewinder because of the range, when it's pretty much always going to carry the AMRAAM for longer ranges.
Always superior? The mere existence of the Infinite Justice and it constantly upstaging the Destiny in melee combat says otherwise. If a weapon is too large or too heavy to hit an enemy at all, then it's not doing any damage, let alone superior damage.

A beam blade isn't going to do shit if the tip of the weapon can't harm an opponent that can stay just out of range of the beam blade. Beam sabers would be more effective, but again, the design of the mobile suit showed those will never get used. Hell, as far as the show was concerned, the beam saber function of the boomerangs was a fuckin' afterthought. Shinn's lucky they had the function at all.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
That's not even how it works, IJ got smacked the fuck back when it got hit by that sword- Phase Shift doesn't negate kinetic energy.
Phase Shift Armor negates most kinetic energy, preventing damage. Momentum is hardly enough to defeat an opponent if it can't actually damage its body--the Infinite Justice could've easily turned and obliterate the Destiny if it failed to scratch it, heavy swing or no.
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Last edited by Rising Dragon; 2013-08-24 at 00:37.
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Old 2013-08-21, 19:43   Link #8894
quagmire
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Pretty sure Kira didn't destroy the Chaos. Murasames did that.
I guess severely damaged the Chaos would have been better. In episode 28 Kira pretty much trashed it. Only the head and one leg remained on the body from that attack.

Last edited by quagmire; 2013-08-21 at 20:14.
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Old 2013-08-21, 19:51   Link #8895
He00Ro
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Pretty sure Kira didn't destroy the Chaos. Murasames did that.
They sliced it to half and yet we see him in the Destroy
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Old 2013-08-21, 21:45   Link #8896
LightMaster
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Already explained the discrepency in the Gunner Wizard pack. Go reread it.
Doesn't change the fact that the Launcher Strike only has one Long-Range weapon for it's purpose. The point here is that all you need is one long-range weapon, the Gunner ZAKU pack and Launcher Strike pack prove this. Launcher's other weapons are for Mid-to-Close and it's really the same for Blast's.

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Yet, the wings of light are based off of the Voiture Lumiere's, so theoretically... no they don't. At least not in space.
They're not the same exact thing, how you're missing the fact that Stargazer's VL is a Solar Sail and Destiny's work nothing like that is beyond me. Destiny has finite thrust, if it was a solar sail it'd be infinitely less useful because it's so much smaller. Oh, and a Solar Sail doesn't negate the fact if you add mass and don't add thrust you slow down... it'd still accelerate slower.

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Nevertheless, "wings of light" are not a proper name for the system that PRODUCES said phenomenon.
THEY CALL IT THE WINGS OF LIGHT- HOW IS THIS STILL BEING DISCUSSED!? They call it damned Wings of Light, it can not get any clear cut then that. No one ever calls any of the other systems WoL, just Destiny.

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If it was solely a matter of who was better than the other, then Athrun would've defeated Shinn using that GOUF Ignited earlier in the show--he did not.
Athrun didn't even want to fight Shinn.

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and part of that reason is because his machine was simply better at close-range combat than the Destiny.
No argument on that point.

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Its weapons were poorly placed as far as melee goes
Uh... how is that, most melee units only use hand-held blades. Infinite Justice is especially well designed for melee when compared to the entire franchise.

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its one long-range cannon is hardly enough to give it an even focus on ranged combat, so the Destiny itself defeats its own purpose in the first place.
Yes, it is- and it has the Beam Rifle; you're arguing against the Launcher Strike and Gunner ZAKU at this point. Quite frankly you know a lot less about Mobile Suit design then the fictional people who design Mobile Suits.

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And the Infinite Justice has two beam cannons and a beam rifle, but everyone agrees that it's a melee-focused mobile suit. The Sword Calamity has a multi-phase beam cannon, but everyone agrees that it's a melee-focused mobile suit.
They're technically wrong, it's an Assault Mobile Suit; and the Sword Calamity's Multi-Phase is only good at close range so that's not even a proper comparison.

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The Destiny has far more strength in melee combat than ranged combat, but simply had poor choices for weapon design in those weapons.
Or perhaps they don't prescribe to your silly notion that you need ALL THE GUNS to be good or even cover Long Range Combat.

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The loss of an arm didn't prevent the Aegis from incapacitating the Strike or doing decent damage to it. The loss of an arm didn't prevent the Freedom from taking out the Providence, nor did the loss of an arm prevent the Providence from doing severe damage to the Freedom. Similarly, the loss of an arm didn't ensure the Destiny from getting completely destroyed at first, but it did lose enough of its combat capability to the point where it could no longer reliably fight in a battle.
The Aegis also took Strike's arm, and it ended up with both Mobile Suit's in shambles- amazingly enough that's mostly the theme here. Lose an arm, you usually lose a battle or get damned near dead. You can't design a Mobile Suit around not using arms, and have it have arms- no damned point. Destiny isn't any more heinous a breaker of this then anything else.

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Going by this logic, there was no need to give him the long-range beam cannon at all, because Shinn had no affinity for using such weapons.
Apparently the people with his data disagree; they wanted to include all three packs abilities and decided Shinn didn't need two cannons.

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Which only further reinforces the idea that the Destiny Gundam was a testbed first and foremost, and then tweaked to fit Shinn's settings.
So you're idea is that "That official information provided for the Destiny isn't correct"; noted.

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In fact, those cannons have what could very well be thrusters attached that would add thrusters, making it even faster!
What, they don't have any thrusters on them.

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And again, as far as the wings of light are concerned, the Destiny had more thrust and mobility power despite being heavier than any of the Impulse's Silhouette pack forms.
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT, DESTINY HAS A WEIGHT, IT HAS AN ACCELERATION BASED ON THAT MASS AND THRUST POWER. IF YOU ADD WEIGHT THIS WILL DECREASE UNLESS YOU ADD MORE THRUST. ANOTHER CANNON IS MORE MASS.

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As a test--he was seeing whether or not he could count on Athrun to fight for him.
Ugh.

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Always superior? The mere existence of the Infinite Justice and it constantly upstaging the Destiny in melee combat says otherwise. If a weapon is too large or too heavy to hit an enemy at all, then it's not doing any damage, let alone superior damage.
That doesn't meant that the Arondight doesn't hit harder, it means the Infinite Justice is better at melee. Also, he did hit the IJ with the Arondight so there goes that.

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Phase Shift Armor negates most kinetic energy, preventing damage.
Phase Shift means shit isn't going to punch through the armor, it's never negated any Kinetic Energy.

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Momentum is hardly enough to defeat an opponent if it can't actually damage its body--the Infinite Justice could've easily turned and obliterate the Destiny if it failed to scratch it, heavy swing or no.
I guess concussions don't exist, and knocking the shit out of people doesn't create openings at all. Nope, not at all- you don't make no sense son.
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Old 2013-08-21, 21:46   Link #8897
Aquaman OS
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
And as such he was able to overcome a powerful enemy by analyzing them--like he did with Kira, he saw that the Destroy had a crippling weakness and exploited it, and made sure others did the same.
In both those cases he had data to preplan with (Durandal had Destroy's data, and Shinn was shown reading it before he went out). And as shown with Freedom's data, he was STILL losing until Rey came over and helped him.

Nowhere else does he do this, not against SF and IJ, or even Chaos Gaia and Abyss. Careful reading of a suits weaknesses is not something Shinn makes a habit of doing.


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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
If it was solely a matter of who was better than the other, then Athrun would've defeated Shinn using that GOUF Ignited earlier in the show--he did not. If you're in an inferior machine up against a skilled opponent in a superior machine, it's very, very unlikely you'll win. Once Athrun got a proper machine, he was able to utterly wreck Shinn, and part of that reason is because his machine was simply better at close-range combat than the Destiny.
Skill can only do so much. In the Gouf he was basically helpless against Destiny. It moved too fast for the Gouf to react, outright caught and destroyed its main weapon with its bare hand and sliced right through its shield despite Athrun blocking in time. Destiny was just too strong for Athrun no matter his skill level.

IJ had the same output as Destiny because it was also a nuclear deutrion powered suit so Athrun could dodge and block effectively this time. But better close combat wasn't why IJ won. Both times he defeated Shinn he used only his beam sabers (and the leg saber to cut Destiny's leg, but Shinn was basically beaten by then). He could have done the exact same move in either SF or Legend.


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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
As a test--he was seeing whether or not he could count on Athrun to fight for him. If he agreed, swell--he had an accomplished, experienced pilot in a machine based off of one that maimed the mighty Freedom Gundam in single combat. If not--he already had a pilot who could make use of the unique features of a mobile suit based off of one that maimed the mighty Freedom Gundam in single combat. It's too contrived to be a coincidence.
Again Freedom is not part of Durandal's equation at that point. Durandal is shown prior to the conversation thinking to himself and he decides that AA, though it probably survived is no longer a threat without Kira and Freedom helping them, and was wondering where he could call it checkmate against Lacus Clyne without Kira and Freedom to fight for her anymore.

He clearly geninuely believes Kira is gone and will no longer be a problem, and if definitely not counting on his return with another Freedom.
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Old 2013-08-22, 01:15   Link #8898
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
Doesn't change the fact that the Launcher Strike only has one Long-Range weapon for it's purpose. The point here is that all you need is one long-range weapon, the Gunner ZAKU pack and Launcher Strike pack prove this. Launcher's other weapons are for Mid-to-Close and it's really the same for Blast's.
You're still forgetting that lesser range or not, the autocannon on the shoulder are a proper weapon in a time where enemy mobile suits lacked Phase Shift Armor to protect it from such, and not all enemies were mobile suits. It could also afford only having the cannon on account of the Phase Shift Armor allowing the suit itself to protect its weaponry--the Impulse did not have this luxury, but packed extra weaponry to get around weapon loss. Different weapons in different times. The Striker Packs after that point were utilized by mass-produced mobile suits like Daggers and Windams, who could supplement one another with numbers.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
They're not the same exact thing, how you're missing the fact that Stargazer's VL is a Solar Sail and Destiny's work nothing like that is beyond me. Destiny has finite thrust, if it was a solar sail it'd be infinitely less useful because it's so much smaller. Oh, and a Solar Sail doesn't negate the fact if you add mass and don't add thrust you slow down... it'd still accelerate slower.
The Destiny's system merely takes energy to use the propulsion, and uses that propulsion in the same manner theoretically--the Stargazer's Voiture Lumiere could harness more than just solar wind, after all.

And in space, it's hardly a problem--there's nothing up there like air resistance that'd slow it down once something accelerates. Hell, you could pop the hatch and throw ping-pong balls backwards to accelerate at that point.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
THEY CALL IT THE WINGS OF LIGHT- HOW IS THIS STILL BEING DISCUSSED!? They call it damned Wings of Light, it can not get any clear cut then that. No one ever calls any of the other systems WoL, just Destiny.
I'm talking about the actual technical term used by the system, god dammit. Fucking get that point already. Feel free to call it the bloody wings of light, but it's still a product of a system derived from the Voiture Lumiere system. The name of the system is likely called the Voiture Lumiere system as well, but they didn't bother to reveal anything like that to the viewers, unlike the wings of light system used by the Strike Freedom and the Stargazer. I'm referring to it in the same manner as the special defense system used by most Gundams is called Phase Shift Armor, or cloaking systems are called Mirage Colloid, so on and so forth. Just the proper name of the system.

That's all I'm referring to. Now fucking get over the point because I'm tired of explaining it to someone who won't listen.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
Athrun didn't even want to fight Shinn.
And your point is...?

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
Uh... how is that, most melee units only use hand-held blades. Infinite Justice is especially well designed for melee when compared to the entire franchise.
I've already explained how the palm cannons endanger the mobile suit's limbs due to the requiring the Destiny to put the limbs recklessly close to the enemy mobile suit. Against a Destroy, it's fine. Against something like a Gundam, it's not.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
Yes, it is- and it has the Beam Rifle; you're arguing against the Launcher Strike and Gunner ZAKU at this point. Quite frankly you know a lot less about Mobile Suit design then the fictional people who design Mobile Suits.
You keep bringing up examples of mobile suit packs that are utilized by mass-produced mobile suits that can supplement one another. And again--just because it has one long-range weapon and one mid-range weapon doesn't mean it suddenly excels at ranged combat.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
They're technically wrong, it's an Assault Mobile Suit; and the Sword Calamity's Multi-Phase is only good at close range so that's not even a proper comparison.
That it's an Assault-type mobile suit does not change the fact that both machines are melee-oriented Gundams. And as for the Multi-Phase beam cannon, we don't know if it's meant to be close-range only. I find it highly unlikely given the sheer range the Strike Freedom and the Calamity could achieve with the weapon.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
Or perhaps they don't prescribe to your silly notion that you need ALL THE GUNS to be good or even cover Long Range Combat.
And once again, one measly gun in CE is hardly enough to qualify a one-off machine like the Destiny as excelling in ranged combat!

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
The Aegis also took Strike's arm, and it ended up with both Mobile Suit's in shambles- amazingly enough that's mostly the theme here. Lose an arm, you usually lose a battle or get damned near dead. You can't design a Mobile Suit around not using arms, and have it have arms- no damned point. Destiny isn't any more heinous a breaker of this then anything else.
You're focusing too much on the event and not the point I'm trying to make. That point being that with the proper equipment on the mobile suit, a loss of an arm doesn't automatically invalidate the combat capability of the mobile suit entirely. The Destiny Impulse is still capable of ranged combat should it lose its arms, unlike the Destiny.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
Apparently the people with his data disagree; they wanted to include all three packs abilities and decided Shinn didn't need two cannons.
Wanting to have al three pack abilities =/= designing the weapon specifically so Shinn could use it the best. Its Sword and Blast capabilities simply do not match up to those of the Impulse's effectiveness and it suffered for it when needing to go up against ace enemies.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
So you're idea is that "That official information provided for the Destiny isn't correct"; noted.
Wouldn't be the first time Fukuda retconned something to hell and back.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
What, they don't have any thrusters on them.
I'm mostly referring to these:



Hardly confirmed but they certainly look like they could be thrusters. Moot point, since the propulsion system is more than enough to move it about without additional thrusters.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT, DESTINY HAS A WEIGHT, IT HAS AN ACCELERATION BASED ON THAT MASS AND THRUST POWER. IF YOU ADD WEIGHT THIS WILL DECREASE UNLESS YOU ADD MORE THRUST. ANOTHER CANNON IS MORE MASS.
Hardly matters whatsoever if the two beam cannons used by the Destiny Impulse are equal in weight to the one used by the Destiny. Given the lighter weapons mounted on it, the Destiny Impulse is most likely of a similar weight to the Destiny Gundam.

Are you done screaming?

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
That doesn't meant that the Arondight doesn't hit harder, it means the Infinite Justice is better at melee. Also, he did hit the IJ with the Arondight so there goes that.
For all the good it did him. If he can't slip past the Freedom or the Justice's defenses, then it doesn't mean anything. Especially if it ends up opening him up to a counterattack.

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Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
Phase Shift means shit isn't going to punch through the armor, it's never negated any Kinetic Energy.
Phase Shift Armor negates nearly any physical impact used against it from solid-state weapons and solid projectiles like railguns and bullets. Physical weaponry like that use kinetic energy to cause damage. It's the whole point of having Phase Shift Armor in the first place.

Therefore the tip of the Arondight won't pierce it so long as Phase Shift is active.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightMaster View Post
I guess concussions don't exist, and knocking the shit out of people doesn't create openings at all. Nope, not at all- you don't make no sense son.
You do understand that the pilot suits likely have reinforcement to help mitigate such injuries? Not to mention there's the whole strapping yourself into the seat part... and pilots bracing themselves against impacts...

You're one of those types who can't stand any criticism of a show, aren't you?

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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Skill can only do so much. In the Gouf he was basically helpless against Destiny. It moved too fast for the Gouf to react, outright caught and destroyed its main weapon with its bare hand and sliced right through its shield despite Athrun blocking in time. Destiny was just too strong for Athrun no matter his skill level.

IJ had the same output as Destiny because it was also a nuclear deutrion powered suit so Athrun could dodge and block effectively this time. But better close combat wasn't why IJ won. Both times he defeated Shinn he used only his beam sabers (and the leg saber to cut Destiny's leg, but Shinn was basically beaten by then). He could have done the exact same move in either SF or Legend.
Skill only going so far was my entire point. That it only needed sabers is both a matter of skill and hardware--the Infinite Justice was far more quick and nimble using beam sabers than the Destiny could ever hope to be with an anti-ship sword.

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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Again Freedom is not part of Durandal's equation at that point. Durandal is shown prior to the conversation thinking to himself and he decides that AA, though it probably survived is no longer a threat without Kira and Freedom helping them, and was wondering where he could call it checkmate against Lacus Clyne without Kira and Freedom to fight for her anymore.
In this instance I'm mostly referring to the overall power of the Providence and how it was able to maim the most powerful mobile suit created at the time, making it more than a match for nearly anything that could be thrown at it. However I still find it awfully convenient he'd have another anti-Freedom mobile suit constructed just in the nick of time.
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Old 2013-08-22, 01:37   Link #8899
monster
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
In this instance I'm mostly referring to the overall power of the Providence and how it was able to maim the most powerful mobile suit created at the time, making it more than a match for nearly anything that could be thrown at it. However I still find it awfully convenient he'd have another anti-Freedom mobile suit constructed just in the nick of time.
Technically, the Providence would be the most powerful SEED mobile suit at that time (don't know about Astray).

The Legend is also not specifically anti-Freedom; it's a legitimately powerful mobile suit that ZAFT would want to have no matter the enemy, especially if they can make it more usable for a wider choice of pilots.
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Old 2013-08-22, 01:41   Link #8900
Rising Dragon
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I know the Legend itself wasn't designed to specifically face against the Freedom--I was mainly referring to how it already naturally was anti-Freedom, due to how easily its design archetype was able to handle the Freedom back in SEED.
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