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Old 2013-08-25, 14:37   Link #9001
CBredbeard
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Yes, well, he has to debate this with the guy who claimed ZAFT shouldn't have targeted the Archangel at all in Destiny, so it's hard to want to muster up anything to debate him.
You guys you were more interested in arguing with me than understanding what I said. Just like here, more arguing and ignoring what I said.
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Old 2013-08-25, 14:45   Link #9002
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
You guys you were more interested in arguing with me than understanding what I said. Just like here, more arguing and ignoring what I said.
You were deliberately ignoring the largest factor as to why ZAFT was targeting the Archangel, so there was nothing to understand. Your argument amounted to "ZAFT shouldn't have attacked the Archandel despite the fact the Archangel attacked ZAFT repeatedly and got ZAFT people killed". The only person ignoring anything in that argument was you.
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Old 2013-08-25, 14:58   Link #9003
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You were deliberately ignoring the largest factor as to why ZAFT was targeting the Archangel, so there was nothing to understand. Your argument amounted to "ZAFT shouldn't have attacked the Archandel despite the fact the Archangel attacked ZAFT repeatedly and got ZAFT people killed". The only person ignoring anything in that argument was you.
1.) I wanted to point out that Archangel was not a dangerous and persistent enemy that needed to be destroyed for the security of Plant. Ultimately, that's what ZAFT's job is to destroy dangerous and persistent enemies and that was not how Archangel behaved in the slightest.

2.) That was not the argument I was making and you know it. I won't go over it again with you because no matter how much I say it, you refuse to understand.
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Old 2013-08-25, 15:10   Link #9004
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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
1.) I wanted to point out that Archangel was not a dangerous and persistent enemy that needed to be destroyed for the security of Plant. Ultimately, that's what ZAFT's job is to destroy dangerous and persistent enemies and that was not how Archangel behaved in the slightest.
Gee, that must make you an amazing military strategist. "Okay guys, see this group of people? Yeah, this group that keeps interfering with our missions and getting our people killed? Don't fight back and don't take them out. No, I don't care that if we attack this other group of people, they'll interfere and get our guys killed again. We don't fight them."

Yeah, not going to happen. If ZAFT wanted LOGOS taken out entirely and Djibril eliminated, they needed the Archangel out of the picture. Djibril ran right for ORB and experience dictated that whenever ZAFT fought ORB forces, the Archangel would get in the way and attack ZAFT, which tended to result in ZAFT deaths and destruction of ZAFT military assets. If they went after Djibril in ORB, Archangel interference likely would've meant that Djibril would've gotten away.

And guess what? That's exactly what happened when they went after ORB and the Archangel and the Freedom showed up. ZAFT had every reason to believe the Archangel was an enemy to them and every right to try and destroy them from a legal and military perspective.

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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
2.) That was not the argument I was making and you know it. I won't go over it again with you because no matter how much I say it, you refuse to understand.
The biggest factor into why ZAFT targeted the Archangel with Operation Angel Down is because Durandal wanted them out of the way. Durandal is the leader of ZAFT and ZAFT fights when he tells them to. He ordered ZAFT to take down the Archangel and the Freedom.

You admitted to ignoring Durandal, who, again (it's sad that this bears repeating with you) was the leader of ZAFT, as part of your argument.

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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
I don't refuse anything. Rather, I take Gil out of the equation entirely and consider ZAFT's encounters with the Archangel within a vacuum when determining whether or not they present a threat and a course of action in regards to them. Whether or not they are a "legitimate enemy".
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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
I thought it was obvious since I mostly ignored Gil's long term goals and emphasized that someone said that Archangel was a legitimate enemy of ZAFT and threw that into question. Maybe I should have made it clearer since all anyone would say was that Gil's machinations to paint them as an enemy made them an enemy in ZAFT's view, even though that still doesn't technically make them an enemy of ZAFT.

One might have enemies, but one might not be anyone's enemy.
News flash: if Durandal wasn't a part of the equation, the war as portrayed in Destiny WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED. It did happen, so trying to take Durandal out of the equation is irrelevant and impossible.

You were, quite frankly, arguing for the sake of arguing.
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Old 2013-08-25, 15:29   Link #9005
Kuroi Hadou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
2.) That was not the argument I was making and you know it. I won't go over it again with you because no matter how much I say it, you refuse to understand.
There's a big difference between understanding and agreeing. We all understood what you were saying; we just didn't agree with it.
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Old 2013-08-25, 15:41   Link #9006
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Gee, that must make you an amazing military strategist. "Okay guys, see this group of people? Yeah, this group that keeps interfering with our missions and getting our people killed? Don't fight back and don't take them out. No, I don't care that if we attack this other group of people, they'll interfere and get our guys killed again. We don't fight them."
Archangel never interfered with Minerva's missions. They intervened in ORB's missions to destroy Minerva.

Quote:
Yeah, not going to happen. If ZAFT wanted LOGOS taken out entirely and Djibril eliminated, they needed the Archangel out of the picture. Djibril ran right for ORB and experience dictated that whenever ZAFT fought ORB forces, the Archangel would get in the way and attack ZAFT, which tended to result in ZAFT deaths and destruction of ZAFT military assets. If they went after Djibril in ORB, Archangel interference likely would've meant that Djibril would've gotten away.
Which is why ZAFT left Orb as soon as Djibril did.

Quote:
The biggest factor into why ZAFT targeted the Archangel with Operation Angel Down is because Durandal wanted them out of the way. Durandal is the leader of ZAFT and ZAFT fights when he tells them to. He ordered ZAFT to take down the Archangel and the Freedom.
Yeah, he went after them because they threatened his plans. Not because they threatened Plant or ZAFT.

Quote:
You admitted to ignoring Durandal, who, again (it's sad that this bears repeating with you) was the leader of ZAFT, as part of your argument.
Gil's regarded Archangel as a threat to his vision. Not because they were dangerous to Plant.

Quote:
You were, quite frankly, arguing for the sake of arguing.
I took offense to the suggestion that Archangel was somehow a threatening enemy and should have been destroyed, when from no one's point of view except Gil's were they dangerous. Which is like a criminal declaring cops to be enemies because they'll arrest him for his crimes.
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Old 2013-08-25, 15:48   Link #9007
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Oh boy. Here we go again.
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Old 2013-08-25, 15:53   Link #9008
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And here we go again

Edit: Ninja'd, damn u fast man
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Old 2013-08-25, 15:56   Link #9009
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Ninja'd, damn u fast man
You should have seen what it was like back when I first joined this place. You'd hit "Quote", type up your post, and then there'd be 10 new posts by the time you hit "Submit Reply."
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Old 2013-08-25, 15:57   Link #9010
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
Archangel never interfered with Minerva's missions. They intervened in ORB's missions to destroy Minerva.
Little difference. They still kept getting in ZAFT's way and causing damage to ZAFT. Sure, the Earth forces might've caused it, but ZAFT was the one who kept suffering from the Archangel's attacks, costing them lives and equipment like the Savior Gundam.

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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
Which is why ZAFT left Orb as soon as Djibril did.
Big deal. Djibril likely wouldn't have escaped if the Archangel's forces didn't show up.

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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
Yeah, he went after them because they threatened his plans. Not because they threatened Plant or ZAFT.

Gil's regarded Archangel as a threat to his vision. Not because they were dangerous to Plant.
Preventing the capture or killing of LOGOS members is a threat to PLANT and ZAFT. Because Djibril got away, Djibril was able to use Requiem against the PLANTs and cause the deaths of thousands. It might not be the ultimate reason Durandal wanted them out of the picture, but still an entirely valid reason for ZAFT to take them out. It's interference like that that caused ZAFT to view the Archangel as a threat. Every time the Archangel showed up, things went south for the Minerva and its forces. They were a problem to ZAFT and ZAFT needed them gone.

Durandal himself says that the Minerva was key to his plans in ending the war. Now what do you think would've happened if the Archangel's interference caused the Minerva to get sunk? Or the Impulse Gundam, and Shinn Asuka, destroyed? The Minerva and its Gundam was the most powerful military asset that ZAFT had. If it gets threatened by enemy forces, it has to be dealt with.

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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
I took offense to the suggestion that Archangel was somehow a threatening enemy and should have been destroyed, when from no one's point of view except Gil's were they dangerous. Which is like a criminal declaring cops to be enemies because they'll arrest him for his crimes.
Too bad. ZAFT was legally in the right to take out the Archangel regardless of their intentions or hopes. The Archangel caused the deaths of ZAFT personnel, causing chaos on the battlefield and otherwise worsening the war. That's more than enough reason for ZAFT to wipe them out.
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Old 2013-08-25, 16:38   Link #9011
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It helps when you have the benefit of hindsight.

Besides, Sunrise has always reiterated that side stories are not canon material. So I usually see side stories as full-fledged development of a half-baked plot in the animation, like how Durandal was really the ultimate villain. But like any other side stories they appear after the anime, and so tends to reveal/expose/tell. If the anime hinted he was the villain, then side stories would tell that he's the villain.

So whether Durandal was intended as the villain in the anime is still a mystery. Besides his Destiny Plan has been described along with Kira's fuck-genetics-lets-choose-our-own-paths as opposing visions for the future. So IMO he's more a visionary (an extreme one though) than the villain. Wars themselves have no moral boundaries and to deliver moral judgment is really a post-war construct, for winners to feel less guilty for not having prevented the atrocities in the first place. And I feel that's what we are doing now, branding Durandal the villain and making him a scapegoat for everything bad that went wrong in the war, including the Junius 7 drop and Logos' atrocities.
Speaking of Durandal being a "villain", I've read somewhere that Kira and Lacus were ranked as one of the more popular "villains" on the lesser-known character polls in Japan (i.e., not Newtype or Gundam Ace). I don't know the name at this moment, but from what I can recall, Lacus was on the "Most Beautiful Enemy" polls (which also includes Char, Zechs, and Treize, among others).

This is from the Japanese Wikipedia article about Lacus, so take it for what you will.
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Old 2013-08-25, 16:43   Link #9012
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Preventing the capture or killing of LOGOS members is a threat to PLANT and ZAFT. Because Djibril got away, Djibril was able to use Requiem against the PLANTs and cause the deaths of thousands. It might not be the ultimate reason Durandal wanted them out of the picture, but still an entirely valid reason for ZAFT to take them out.
Angel Down happened long before that. And Durandal ceased his attempts to destroy them once Freedom went down figuring they lacked the power to interfere after that.

Plus even after Djibril got away Durandal didn't press the attack on AA and Orb. He left them alone until he annouced the Destiny Plan and Orb refused it.
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Old 2013-08-25, 16:46   Link #9013
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I'm aware it happened after that, but it's still an example of why the Archangel was a problem. Whenever the Archangel got involved, things went south for ZAFT. And eventually it was going to happen during an event that was too crucial for ZAFT to fail.
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Old 2013-08-25, 16:50   Link #9014
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Of course if AA wasn't there the Zaft would have conquered Orb, which would have stopped Requiem (at least on Plant citizens), but also would have ended any hope anyone had of stopping Durandal later on. He'd have total world control, except for Scandinavia.
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Old 2013-08-25, 16:52   Link #9015
Rising Dragon
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I'm aware. But from ZAFT's perspective, the Archangel was a hindrance that was proving too costly.
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Old 2013-08-25, 16:54   Link #9016
cyberdemon
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Originally Posted by Washu-Chan View Post
Speaking of Durandal being a "villain", I've read somewhere that Kira and Lacus were ranked as one of the more popular "villains" on the lesser-known character polls in Japan (i.e., not Newtype or Gundam Ace). I don't know the name at this moment, but from what I can recall, Lacus was on the "Most Beautiful Enemy" polls (which also includes Char, Zechs, and Treize, among others).

This is from the Japanese Wikipedia article about Lacus, so take it for what you will.
it does make sense. They're like Celestial Being with their actions. They're not part of any law so technically they can be labeled as villains but that doesn't make them evil people or necessarily wrong about why they do that. who is good and who is a villain in that world is dictated by those that hold power. Kira and Lacus left ORB so they were outside any influence of any government. ZAFT was in the right to try to take them out but Durandal wasn't in the right. He attacked them when they weren't a part of it and forced them into the war and basically used it as an excuse to clean up his mess.
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Old 2013-08-25, 17:02   Link #9017
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All official Gundam info reflects Kira and Lacus as being in the right so I doubt that.
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Old 2013-08-25, 17:30   Link #9018
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All official Gundam info reflects Kira and Lacus as being in the right so I doubt that.
you can be right and villain at same, after all
one side hero = massacres killer to other
(War)

Most world was with Durandal because of fear or gratitude (even though his plan was to remove human freedom )


It's like if 9 people are insane and one sane = 9 sane + 1 insane ( majority rule )
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Old 2013-08-25, 17:44   Link #9019
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Yeah but this "poll" also seems think the Wing Boys, AEUG and Celestial Being are heroes, but not Kira and Lacus, even though all groups are basically doing the same thing.
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Old 2013-08-25, 17:44   Link #9020
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hi guys^^ *nice to see gundam seed/seed destiny fans are still out there* ^_^

as far as I ve read, the plot was [partially] changed in the Mobile Suit Gundam SEED (English Subtitles) HD Remaster Blu-ray Boxes, so I looked around if there are any other rerealeses of the anime in somethin close to HD or so... and I ve fund those:

Mobile Suit Gundam SEED DVD Box
( 機動戦士ガンダムSEED DVD-BOX )

and

Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Destiny DVD Box
( 機動戦士ガンダムSEED DESTINY DVD-BOX )

They were both released in 2010, but I dont know if there are in HD or if they were reedited/dubbed/cutted. Does, by chance, any1 know?

PS: Did I miss any (good ) news of the Gundam Seed Destiny Movie?
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