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Old 2013-08-29, 21:45   Link #9121
monster
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I don't think so. The Impulse managed to keep up with the Freedom and the Strike Freedom managed to keep up with the Destiny on Earth. And since the Destiny should be more maneuverable and/or faster than the Impulse, the Strike Freedom was at least as good as the Freedom, if not better, even on Earth. Also, the Strike Freedom had an extra beam rifle and an abdominal cannon, so it has has the same amount of weapons as the Freedom on Earth.

And again, you're ignoring Kira's state of mind as well as how the Biological CPUs didn't care if they hit each other. Compared to that, Rey would let Shinn attack and then have his turn.
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Old 2013-08-29, 21:57   Link #9122
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Keep in mind they had to dumb down Kira a bit to have the Impulse keep up with the Freedom in the first place, never mind how Kira suddenly forgot half his bloody weapon tactics in that same fight. It's hardly the best comparison out there.

Same amount of weaponry =/= same level of firepower. Plasma cannons have a wider area of attack than a beam rifle, making them harder to avoid and more damaging on contact. The Strike Freedom as such as less overall damaging weapons in-atmosphere. The beam rifles, in theory, would be easier to avoid due to the smaller hit range of the beam. In space the Strike Freedom is far more destructive with the Super DRAGOONs (though for the life of me I can't understand why they're called Super when every bloody DRAGOON unit shown elsewhere outperforms them). Nevertheless, their presence in-atmosphere means in-theory the Strike Freedom should have less performance than what it could normally achieve. Aggravatingly enough, though, it was at the Strike Freedom's debut that when the production team for Destiny stopped trying to make a decent show.

Rey and Shinn cooperating as they did only shows that they're better than the CPUs as they didn't have a time limit and weren't inherently antagonistic with one another, so they should've posed an even bigger threat to Kira by that point. And yet Kira still outperformed them, when the same time last season the CPUs would've had him on the ropes.

Kira is frankly better in Destiny than he ever way at any point in SEED, except for when he took down Rau, and even that battle performance is debatable.
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Old 2013-08-29, 22:02   Link #9123
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aren't they called super dragoons because they are easier to use and practically anyone could use them.
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Old 2013-08-29, 22:04   Link #9124
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Rey and Shinn cooperating as they did only shows that they're better than the CPUs as they didn't have a time limit and weren't inherently antagonistic with one another, so they should've posed an even bigger threat to Kira by that point. And yet Kira still outperformed them, when the same time last season the CPUs would've had him on the ropes.
That said, it means that Kira could take his turn fighting both Shinn and Rey knowing that they wouldn't attack out of order and endanger their own teammate.
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Kira is frankly better in Destiny than he ever way at any point in SEED, except for when he took down Rau, and even that battle performance is debatable.
Well, as he continued to be in more battles in Destiny, it is expected for Kira to improve. But certainly, at the beginning of Destiny, I don't think he was that much better than he was at the end of SEED.
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Old 2013-08-29, 22:09   Link #9125
Rising Dragon
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aren't they called super dragoons because they are easier to use and practically anyone could use them.
If that were the case you could argue that the Legend is equipped with Super DRAGOONs, but all media call them DRAGOONs, whereas the Strike Freedom's are labeled as "Super DRAGOONs". However of all the mobile suits in the franchise that have actual DRAGOON units, the Strike Freedom's are the weakest.

To me it strikes me as a way of trying to make them sound more powerful/better than they actually are. It's entirely possible, given how they retconned the wings of light onto it and gave it the golden joints and so on and so forth.

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That said, it means that Kira could take his turn fighting both Shinn and Rey knowing that they wouldn't attack out of order and endanger their own teammate. Well, as he continued to be in more battles in Destiny, it is expected for Kira to improve. But certainly, at the beginning of Destiny, I don't think he was that much better than he was at the end of SEED.
The CPUs pulled the same tactics of attacking one after the other, and did so without having to worry about endangering one another, and still managed to get in more hits than Shinn and Rey did. Kira managed to outperform the two of them in a machine he'd only taken into battle ONCE, and in a completely different environment at that. So, there's definitely a greater amount of skill between Kira then and Kira now.
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Old 2013-08-29, 22:13   Link #9126
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I would challenge the idea that Rey and Shinn are quite on the level of Kira and Athrun. They are good pilots, but not GREAT.

Also remember that Shinn and Rey technically won the 2 on 1 engagement on Orb. It was a close call, but they did have Kira on the ropes.
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Old 2013-08-29, 22:14   Link #9127
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Spoiler for Phase 23 summary:




There's no shot of Heine's ghost after he was killed, as this was taken from the TV Movies.
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Old 2013-08-29, 22:24   Link #9128
monster
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
If that were the case you could argue that the Legend is equipped with Super DRAGOONs, but all media call them DRAGOONs, whereas the Strike Freedom's are labeled as "Super DRAGOONs". However of all the mobile suits in the franchise that have actual DRAGOON units, the Strike Freedom's are the weakest.

To me it strikes me as a way of trying to make them sound more powerful/better than they actually are. It's entirely possible, given how they retconned the wings of light onto it and gave it the golden joints and so on and so forth.
Maybe it's the Terminal's designation for it. ZAFT may used the same technology and not apply the designation on the Legend.
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The CPUs pulled the same tactics of attacking one after the other, and did so without having to worry about endangering one another, and still managed to get in more hits than Shinn and Rey did.
Actually, they did hit each other. But that's the point, they didn't let anything (other their own drug dependency) stop them to get their hit.
Quote:
Kira managed to outperform the two of them in a machine he'd only taken into battle ONCE, and in a completely different environment at that. So, there's definitely a greater amount of skill between Kira then and Kira now.
Well, by that time, sure, as, like I said, he has had more battles. That said, the Strike Freedom shouldn't be that much different than the Freedom, and Kira did his little setup.
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Old 2013-08-29, 22:24   Link #9129
Rising Dragon
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I would challenge the idea that Rey and Shinn are quite on the level of Kira and Athrun. They are good pilots, but not GREAT.

Also remember that Shinn and Rey technically won the 2 on 1 engagement on Orb. It was a close call, but they did have Kira on the ropes.
They got in a single good chance to take down the Strike Freedom at the end, when Shinn was able to lock onto the Strike Freedom with the cannon--probably the only real instance of him using it at range in a fight against a similarly-skilled opponent--but even then, all Kira needed to do was turn and block it with a beam shield and he'd been okay.

And the one good shot was interrupted by Athrun attacking him anyway, much like the second round against the CPUs.

It's no debate that Kira's a better pilot than Shinn, we know that much--IIRC, there's an official statement that Shinn's the third-best living pilot in show, with Kira being the best and Athrun between the two of them, though I'd have to find it again--but all I'm saying is that Kira is way better than he was back in SEED, with comparatively little time to build up that level of skill, especially taking in atrophy of skill from having not piloted or practiced for two years.

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Originally Posted by Washu-Chan View Post
Spoiler for Phase 23 summary:
Okay, I don't really mean to be antagonistic... but every time you post a picture, Washu, it's like a part of me dies a little on the inside.
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Old 2013-08-29, 22:25   Link #9130
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I still find Yuna's reaction to be funny.

He orders Orb's forces to attack the Archangel. But when the Archangel engages Orb's forces he goes, " WTF!?!?! Why did they attack us?"
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Old 2013-08-29, 22:31   Link #9131
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Maybe it's the Terminal's designation for it. ZAFT may used the same technology and not apply the designation on the Legend.
Possible, but unlikely. Terminal still uses ZAFT design philosophy because they stole their designs from ZAFT, to the point where the three mobile suits still use the ZGMF designation (whereas when the EA stole the Second Stage Gundams, they reclassified their model numbers). There's no real evidence of them changing names or model numbers to their own unique designation.

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Actually, they did hit each other.
You're thinking of the first battle and late into the second after Athrun showed up. I'm talking about the three-on-one in the second battle before Athrun intervened, when the three were truly coordinating their tactics. There was specifically a point where Athrun watched where the three of them spammed attacks at the Freedom, where the angles of attack showed that their beams were well away from each other, even.

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But that's the point, they didn't let anything (other their own drug dependency) stop them to get their hit. Well, by that time, sure, as, like I said, he has had more battles. That said, the Strike Freedom shouldn't be that much different than the Freedom, and Kira did his little setup.
Agreed, there should be little difference, but there should still be A difference. The Strike Freedom is more optimized for space combat than the original Freedom was, as its two most useful systems can only be operated in space--one of them would be useable on Earth, were it not for the Super DRAGOONs being docked. It's especially frustrating because the dev team had stopped trying by this point in the show.
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Old 2013-08-29, 22:39   Link #9132
Aquaman OS
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Also remember that Shinn and Rey technically won the 2 on 1 engagement on Orb. It was a close call, but they did have Kira on the ropes.
That was only because Rey surprised Kira by revealing his Dragoons could turn and fire up at him when Rey was facing his back to Kira. Otherwise Kira was dominating. He easily deflected Shinn's Destiny Finger, while Rey was firing at him, and was about to blast Destiny's head off when Rey surprised him by revealing he could fire his Dragoon's at that angle.

Almost got him for sure, but nothing to do with skill, and more to do with revealing a surprise weapon.
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Old 2013-08-29, 23:03   Link #9133
monster
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Haha, they improved Shinn's targeting performance against the Abyss.
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Possible, but unlikely. Terminal still uses ZAFT design philosophy because they stole their designs from ZAFT, to the point where the three mobile suits still use the ZGMF designation (whereas when the EA stole the Second Stage Gundams, they reclassified their model numbers). There's no real evidence of them changing names or model numbers to their own unique designation.
Good point. I guess another possibility is if this particular system was developed separately than the one used in the Legend, but I guess that's unlikely.
Quote:
You're thinking of the first battle and late into the second after Athrun showed up. I'm talking about the three-on-one in the second battle before Athrun intervened, when the three were truly coordinating their tactics. There was specifically a point where Athrun watched where the three of them spammed attacks at the Freedom, where the angles of attack showed that their beams were well away from each other, even.
Hmm, actually that was indeed a good overview of the battle. Unfortunately, Rey and Shinn never fought like that. So, I don't think it's fair to attribute Kira's relative performance just on his own skill, although I agree he had improved by this point in Destiny.
Quote:
Agreed, there should be little difference, but there should still be A difference. The Strike Freedom is more optimized for space combat than the original Freedom was, as its two most useful systems can only be operated in space--one of them would be useable on Earth, were it not for the Super DRAGOONs being docked. It's especially frustrating because the dev team had stopped trying by this point in the show.
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Old 2013-08-29, 23:21   Link #9134
Aquaman OS
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Well Strike Rouge phoenix doesn't do anything except block a beam rifle shot with its shield, as expected.

Also they did more "humanizing" Kira here. A few scenes were changed to show him looking sad and remorseful instead of his usual serious/angry face he had originally.

Unfortuately most of Freedom's fighting is STILL stock footage from the original version of Seed. And now it's even more jarring because the new scenes make Freedom alot sleeker looking that it does in the original shots.
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Old 2013-08-29, 23:50   Link #9135
Rising Dragon
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Are you sure? His expressions looked much the same as in the first run to me.
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Old 2013-08-30, 00:03   Link #9136
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When it first starts after Minerva crashes he looks sad now, where as originally he had the same expression he had at the end of 22. And he has that face again before flying away after Heine dies, where again originally he just had his blank srs face from the end of 22.
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Old 2013-08-30, 00:23   Link #9137
Rising Dragon
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When it first starts after Minerva crashes he looks sad now, where as originally he had the same expression he had at the end of 22. And he has that face again before flying away after Heine dies, where again originally he just had his blank srs face from the end of 22.
They look fairly matching to me.

Images
Episode 23
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Images
Remaster 23
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Each image was taken from the same scene in the regular episode and the remastered episode. All they did was give him a slight, very slight frown in two of them. Hardly enough to make him look sorrowful. No, while they gave the two later scenes (water landing and Heine kill) a touch-up, Kira still looks as emotionless as ever. The face view at the start of the episode/end of last episode is actually unchanged.
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Old 2013-08-30, 00:29   Link #9138
Aquaman OS
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The bigger eyes give the look of sadness, while he just looks cold or angry originally.

While originally it looked like he didn't really give a crap about the Minerva's troubles due to his actions or even was angry at them for attacking and killing Orb forces, here he at least looks mildly remorseful about it.

Note that both changes are for scenes when people died to his actions (the crewman on Minerva, and Heine).
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Old 2013-08-30, 00:34   Link #9139
Rising Dragon
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You need considerably more than that to produce a sad look, which SEED IS capable of us. Narrower/lidded eyes, for example, with a downturned expression, possibly even slumped shoulders or a slight nod to the head.

Unfortunately, another one of those indicators are eyebrows, which are obscured by his helmet in the latter two scenes. Otherwise, the images pretty much match the first one from the start of the episode, which is his "serious" face, as you called it, so his expression feels quite neutral here. Not much humanizing, unfortunately.

If you'd like to check the full episode for comparison, I used this video here: http://www.watchcartoononline.com/gu...english-dubbed

Use the second player; I can't get the first one to work.
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Old 2013-08-30, 00:40   Link #9140
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I already checked. It still looks sad and remorseful to me. Plus there doesn't seem to be any other reason to redraw that shot otherwise.
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