AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Gundam

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-10-06, 04:58   Link #9501
The American Average
2LMES
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: a comet that goes zooom!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroexia View Post
warmonger- a person who wants a war or tries to make other people want to start or fight a war[/B]
Spoiler for you call?:


for me the whole Kira "BRB Cagalli's crying" line seems strange because Athrun practically says the same thing in the beginning of the fight but in a different way.
__________________
The American Average is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-06, 05:23   Link #9502
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by The American Average View Post
for me the whole Kira "BRB Cagalli's crying" line seems strange because Athrun practically says the same thing in the beginning of the fight but in a different way.
Sure, but Kira also took out many Alliance mobile suits, probably more than Athrun. So it's not like Kira is saying it's ok for the Minerva to be destroyed. And he's not mad at Athrun/the Minerva for protecting themselves. Kira's mad at Athrun because he's trying to do something to minimize the casualty for both Orb and the Minerva, and all Athrun could do is say it's ok for Orb soldiers to die.

Had Athrun not gone on the offensive, he probably could've coordinated some kind of cooperation between the Archangel and the Minerva to create a favorable outcome for both ships. But instead, he kept things to himself and was just obsessed with how wrong Kira was for interfering.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-06, 12:37   Link #9503
zeroexia
he is a CHAR
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Sure, but Kira also took out many Alliance mobile suits, probably more than Athrun. So it's not like Kira is saying it's ok for the Minerva to be destroyed. And he's not mad at Athrun/the Minerva for protecting themselves. Kira's mad at Athrun because he's trying to do something to minimize the casualty for both Orb and the Minerva, and all Athrun could do is say it's ok for Orb soldiers to die.

Had Athrun not gone on the offensive, he probably could've coordinated some kind of cooperation between the Archangel and the Minerva to create a favorable outcome for both ships. But instead, he kept things to himself and was just obsessed with how wrong Kira was for interfering.
Thank you monster for getting this.

It was clear in the previous meeting with Kira and Cagalli in the Differing Views episode that Athrun was supportive of ZAFT and Durundal, believing them to be totally in the right. That EF was evil and had to be punished and that even though he didn't want to kill Orb soldiers, it couldn't be helped since they supported the EF.

Later on Athrun starts to think that ZAFT and Durundal aren't so good after all, ironically partly due to he stopped fighting after getting "savioured".
zeroexia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-06, 19:14   Link #9504
Hagoshod
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Send a message via AIM to Hagoshod
Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
ira's mad at Athrun because he's trying to do something to minimize the casualty for both Orb and the Minerva
And his way of going about it makes no sense and just leads to added chaos and more people on both sides getting killed, so Kira's an idiot.

It's this whole mindset of "Well Kira/Archangel/whoever think they're doing the right thing, so they're special little snowflakes and it's wrong to say they're hostile" that gets me.
Hagoshod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-06, 19:38   Link #9505
Gundamx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
And his way of going about it makes no sense and just leads to added chaos and more people on both sides getting killed, so Kira's an idiot.

It's this whole mindset of "Well Kira/Archangel/whoever think they're doing the right thing, so they're special little snowflakes and it's wrong to say they're hostile" that gets me.
Last I check he minimize deaths number by large margin .
to the point that most people that die in second battle was because Athrun didn't let him joined from the start
Gundamx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-06, 20:05   Link #9506
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
And his way of going about it makes no sense and just leads to added chaos and more people on both sides getting killed, so Kira's an idiot.
The Minerva and its pilots did most of the killing.

If Athrun hadn't kept Kira busy, either of them could've prevented that Murasame from crashing into the Minerva and Kira firing at the cannon may have killed a few Minerva crewmembers but saved more than a few Orb soldiers in the target ship.
Quote:
It's this whole mindset of "Well Kira/Archangel/whoever think they're doing the right thing, so they're special little snowflakes and it's wrong to say they're hostile" that gets me.
No one is saying that here, least of all in the show itself.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-07, 06:51   Link #9507
CBredbeard
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
I also don't see what's wrong or stupid about wishing to minimize damage to either side of the conflict. When Cagalli does reign Orb in, how could it possibly be a bad thing if she reduced the damage done to ZAFT by Orb? Doing what they did, she wanted to save her soldiers as much as she wanted to protect Orb's neutrality and martial stance.

If Archangel and company have done anything wrong it's that they didn't act sooner. If they'd confronted the Orb fleet before they'd committed to a battle, they could have avoided pretty much everything that happened, but Cagalli was way too indecisive. A character trait she'd picked up from somewhere after Seed...
CBredbeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-07, 08:39   Link #9508
RES-01 Perses Gundam
A Contradiction Beneath
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Singapore
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
I also don't see what's wrong or stupid about wishing to minimize damage to either side of the conflict. When Cagalli does reign Orb in, how could it possibly be a bad thing if she reduced the damage done to ZAFT by Orb? Doing what they did, she wanted to save her soldiers as much as she wanted to protect Orb's neutrality and martial stance.

If Archangel and company have done anything wrong it's that they didn't act sooner. If they'd confronted the Orb fleet before they'd committed to a battle, they could have avoided pretty much everything that happened, but Cagalli was way too indecisive. A character trait she'd picked up from somewhere after Seed...
I agree. If not for the fact that the show needed to demonstrate Cagalli's helplessness at preventing Orb soldiers from dying, I would expect Cagalli to return to Orb, seize power while most of Orb's fighting strength was concentrated on ZAFT and end Orb's involvement in the war forever.
RES-01 Perses Gundam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-07, 18:50   Link #9509
Aquaman OS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Cagalli would in no way be able to stomach an Orb civil war. She couldn't even stand for Orb forces to die when they were trying to kill her.
Aquaman OS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-07, 19:01   Link #9510
Gundamx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by RES-01 Perses Gundam View Post
I agree. If not for the fact that the show needed to demonstrate Cagalli's helplessness at preventing Orb soldiers from dying, I would expect Cagalli to return to Orb, seize power while most of Orb's fighting strength was concentrated on ZAFT and end Orb's involvement in the war forever.
Except Seiran family have a lot of supporters at that time in Orb
(Orb Fighting strength aka military was with Cagalli side while most politicians was with Seiran family so there is Zero point to return to Orb at that time )
Gundamx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-07, 19:21   Link #9511
The American Average
2LMES
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: a comet that goes zooom!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gundamx View Post
Except Seiran family have a lot of supporters at that time in Orb
(Orb Fighting strength aka military was with Cagalli side while most politicians was with Seiran family so there is Zero point to return to Orb at that time )
why not a coup d'etat? with Cagalli's backing with the military it'd be quite easy for her to seize back control
__________________
The American Average is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-07, 19:28   Link #9512
BladeEntity
Anything's Possible
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
But the Seiran's would have had Alliance backing which may have started a civil war.
__________________
Nothing is Impossible
BladeEntity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-07, 19:38   Link #9513
Aquaman OS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Cagalli wouldn't accept any takeover that wasn't people willingly agreeing with her and Uzumi's ideals. She wouldn't take over by force.

In fact the only reason she was able to take over at all was because the Seiran's and all their lackeys were convieinently killed in the Zaft invasion and everyone else had no choice but to listen to her because backing the Seiran's only brought them a fleet destroyed and another invasion while Cagalli saved them from a Zaft takeover and wouldn't have been in that position to start with had they listened to her from the start.

Something Morosawa does frequently I noticed. If a character could cause a conflict they are conviently killed off so it doesn't have to be resolved. Rather than have to deal with two Lacuses Meer is killed off, rather than have to deal with the hassle of Djbril being taken alive he's killed off and forgotten about.

Same thing happened in Seed, Flay is killed off so there's no love triangle with Lacus and all the heads of the war, rather than have to answer for their actions, were all killed off instead.
Aquaman OS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-07, 20:56   Link #9514
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
all the heads of the war, rather than have to answer for their actions, were all killed off instead.
I think Yzak's mother was captured.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-07, 21:01   Link #9515
Rising Dragon
Goat Herder
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The middle of the Middle of Nowhere
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
I think Yzak's mother was captured.
Ezalia was a crony, however, and not the source of any major conflicts--that lay in the hands of Le Creuset, Zala, and Azrael, all of which were also conveniently killed. Flay, Meer, and Djibril were also sources of contention in the various plotlines, and they too were killed off as resolution to the plots, rather than actually having the other characters deal with the repercussions that came with their existence.
__________________
Rising Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-07, 21:43   Link #9516
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Ezalia was a crony, however, and not the source of any major conflicts--that lay in the hands of Le Creuset, Zala, and Azrael, all of which were also conveniently killed. Flay, Meer, and Djibril were also sources of contention in the various plotlines, and they too were killed off as resolution to the plots, rather than actually having the other characters deal with the repercussions that came with their existence.
It certainly would've been nice for Flay to survive. As for the rest:

Le Creuset and Azrael needed to die because they wouldn't have stopped the battles otherwise. Djibril would've been executed as a criminal anyway, even if he had survived the war. Zala could've been captured, but the only one who would be affected is Athrun, and he was conflicted enough as it is in Destiny even with his father being dead. At any case, the only reason for any of these men to survive would be if they were to be involved in another conflict in a sequel, which is a rare thing for an AU series.

The only one who would be affected by Meer being alive is Meer as she is a Lacus impostor. Both Athrun and Lacus would be fine with her being alive.

So, yeah, they could survive, but their existence wouldn't necessarily be something that needed to be dealt with by the other characters, aside from Athrun and his dad.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-07, 22:54   Link #9517
Aquaman OS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
If Cruset and Zala and Azrael had survived they could have been public scapegoats for the war, so they wouldn't have had to cover the whole thing up, and Azrael might have revealed the existance of Logos which might have let them hold off the war in Destiny. Instead...well....we get Destiny.

Not to mention that Zala living and going to jail could have given some much need closure allowing him to put his past in Zaft behind him and move on. Then he wouldn't have had his crisis in Destiny that had him being on Zaft despite him not really wanting to for half the series.

As far as Meer considering the confusion when the real Lacus was revealed and everyone wondering which was the real one, complete with Meer saying that she was actually doing stuff publically and putting Lacus's image to use while the real Lacus was working behind the scenes and not actively helping anyone it would have been an interesting question as to what exactly was the best use of Lacus's talents. If anything else it would have forced them address exactly what was going on behind the scenes instead of being vague about it. It would also force Meer to address whether or not she'd been wrong for blindly trusting the chairman and letting him take her old life away to use Lacus's image for something Lacus might not have approved of, and whether it was ok for her to reject her own identity if favor of being Lacus.

But like with whether Flay or Lacus was better for Kira, Meer convientiently is killed by a third party, so nobody needs to address that issue.

Likewise if Yuna and his family had survived Cagalli could actually have to explain just why their ideas were so important and have to force everyone to listen to her and admit they were wrong. They could have also been used as a scapegoat for Djbril. But they all die, and nothing has to be addressed.

As far as Djbril, if he had survived Durandal couldn't have just immediately moved on to the DP and changed the subject so fast. (since he went from "Logos is the the only reason we're warring. The only problem" to "Oh wait no, actually human ambition is the problem").

Of course this might have been him the whole point and him casually removing Djbril from the equation (after thanking him no less) and forgetting all about him was intentional.

But it just seemed like way too many characters in Destiny were unceremoniously killed off and forgotten about as soon as the plot no longer needed them but it didn't want to deal with the baggage of keeping them around. At least once the conflict in Seed shifted from EA vs Zaft to TSA vs everyone but mostly Asrael and Crueset they folded some Zaft guys into the TSA rather than kill them all because the conflict was different now.
Aquaman OS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-07, 23:35   Link #9518
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
If Cruset and Zala and Azrael had survived they could have been public scapegoats for the war, so they wouldn't have had to cover the whole thing up,
What was covered up?
Quote:
and Azrael might have revealed the existance of Logos which might have let them hold off the war in Destiny. Instead...well....we get Destiny.
Knowing that LOGOS exist wouldn't change the Break the World event.
Quote:
Not to mention that Zala living and going to jail could have given some much need closure allowing him to put his past in Zaft behind him and move on. Then he wouldn't have had his crisis in Destiny that had him being on Zaft despite him not really wanting to for half the series.
His crisis in Destiny stems from the fact that there are people who actually thought Zala was correct. His father being alive wouldn't change that.
Quote:
As far as Meer considering the confusion when the real Lacus was revealed and everyone wondering which was the real one, complete with Meer saying that she was actually doing stuff publically and putting Lacus's image to use while the real Lacus was working behind the scenes and not actively helping anyone it would have been an interesting question as to what exactly was the best use of Lacus's talents. If anything else it would have forced them address exactly what was going on behind the scenes instead of being vague about it. It would also force Meer to address whether or not she'd been wrong for blindly trusting the chairman and letting him take her old life away to use Lacus's image for something Lacus might not have approved of, and whether it was ok for her to reject her own identity if favor of being Lacus.
Not really, her whole situation was resolved before she died. With Durandal having no need for her service, Meer's days as Lacus is over. And she realized that she was wrong for following Durandal, because now she's just a liability to him. That's why she called for help. Either way, it doesn't change anything as far as Lacus is concerned.
Quote:
Likewise if Yuna and his family had survived Cagalli could actually have to explain just why their ideas were so important and have to force everyone to listen to her and admit they were wrong. They could have also been used as a scapegoat for Djbril. But they all die, and nothing has to be addressed.
Cagalli was able to have Yuna arrested. I think that says it all as far as her status is concerned.
Quote:
As far as Djbril, if he had survived Durandal couldn't have just immediately moved on to the DP and changed the subject so fast. (since he went from "Logos is the the only reason we're warring. The only problem" to "Oh wait no, actually human ambition is the problem").
And what would that serve? Destiny were only given 51 episodes.
Quote:
But it just seemed like way too many characters in Destiny were unceremoniously killed off and forgotten about as soon as the plot no longer needed them but it didn't want to deal with the baggage of keeping them around. At least once the conflict in Seed shifted from EA vs Zaft to TSA vs everyone but mostly Asrael and Crueset they folded some Zaft guys into the TSA rather than kill them all because the conflict was different now.
Is that really any different than other Gundam shows?
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-08, 14:29   Link #9519
Destined_Fate
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroexia View Post
monster's got what I meant.

The line between good and evil in war is always blurry but since Gundam is a fictional show presented by a fixed narrative, the actions of certain characters are framed differently. Similar to how one's hero is another's villain. It's all about the way the actions are presented that determine who's right.

In Shinn's case, of course for ZAFT he's a hero for destroying the enemy. But for ORB and EF, he's could be seen as a crazed murderer or something to that effect.

For us, the people watching the show, we see his rage and quite frankly his mental instability. That's the way Fukuda decided to show Shinn. That's why we get all those screaming and crazy-eyed shots of Shinn. And this is basically how Shinn fights all the way to the end of the show. Screaming and with crazy rage eyes. And we know later that Shinn was serving on the "wrong side", as decided by the story.

So combine Shinn acting like a crazy murderer without feelings for killing others and serving as a puppet for the "evil dictator" Durundal. We don't get a "good guy" in the frame of the story anymore.

I was noting that this scene is the start of his descent into the "bad guy" role in the story. Then Kira and co. return as the "heroes" as determined by the story.

Now, you can disagree that Kira and co. are right or wrong but the show clearly shows that Kira and co. are the "heroes" of the plot at the end. That's why Shinn joins them at the end, showing he's "good" again at the end. ( I myself was dissatisfied with the treatment of Shinn in the story. He should have been able to recognize his own problems and reform like a proper protagonist but he never gets the chance to. Bad plot writing once again. )

Now for Kira, as I said before, I agree that it was Kira's fault for the position that the Minerva was in before. BUT it still doesn't change that without Kira's intervention in the second battle, they would have died. That's the only thing I'm saying. Stating a fact of the show. Whether or not you want to blame Kira for the situation that resulted in him saving them is up to you. That's your opinion. I don't really care about whether or not Kira is at fault.

I just think that Athrun should have allowed Kira to stop the fighting because think about it. All those Orb people died because Kira didn't stop Shinn. And why didn't he? because Athrun prevented him. Lives could have been saved like in the first battle if Kira was allowed to stop the fighting. It is clear that the death toll in the first battle was low because of Kira's intervention. If Kira didn't intervene in the first battle, it would have ended in massive casualties like the second.

That's why Kira was pissed off at Athrun. Athrun had decided to willingly aid the Minerva to kill Orb soldiers. In other words, he condones the loss of all those lives. Kira doesn't want them to die. That's why he's asking Athrun why Athrun's telling him that nothing should be done to stop the deaths.

So Athrun looks like a jerk for wanting people to die. Deaths that could be avoided.
Not blurry when Kira was clearly in the wrong in these situations.

Actually that's wrong. The EF, after Logos is revealed, see Shinn as a Hero too because he's the face that's used to take out Logos. Only ORB is against Shinn and even than that's ORB's own fault for siding with Logos even after they were revealed. ORB was asking to be destroyed and the sad thing is that it wasn't. Bunch of hypocrites with naive idealism who never believe they're in the wrong even when they are. Hell, they're the ones that made the first 5 G's in secret to give to Blue Cosmos in SEED!

Shinn's side was only wrong because it lost. PLANTs, Mars, and even the Feds had accepted Durandal's plan. Only ORB and a few rebels were against it because they didn't like Durandal. Considering that the Destiny plan worked on Mars I would say Durandal's plan to end war was at a good start, far better than the alternative Kira offered which is more war and beating up those that don't agree with him.

The show clearly shows Kira doesn't know what he wants half the time and the other half he's being a hypocrite.

The Minerva would never have been in that situation in the first place if it wasn't for Kira's antics. Thus what contributions he had aren't a plus, they're just him trying to make up for his mistake which he didn't really do. All he did was take down one guy, to repay killing Heine, than fighting with Athrun while Shinn took out most of the ORB and Logos forces all by himself after going SEED.

Thus not an opinion as that's what happened. Kira put them in that situation because of his antics and when he arrived he took out on guy than fought Athrun while Shinn did all the real work. It wasn't even an even trade as before Logos and ORB were screwed in the last battle, while in this one they were able to still retreat after Shinn demolished therm because of the damage Minerva sustained from the other battle and this one all due to Kira.

Those ORB hypocrites deserved to die. They knew Cagalli was in the Strike Rouge yet they chose to fire upon her and to follow orders they didn't agree with because of "Ideals". Shinn was justified in killing them, Kira wasn't justified in trying to save them since they chose to fight Shinn of their own free will.

Kira not wanting them to die is irrelevant. He knows darn well they chose to go to war, he has no right to get in the way of them throwing their lives away as that was their choice. However, because Kira decided he was right, and they were all wrong, he got in the way which got Heine killed, severely damaged the Minerva and their Gundams, and allowed ORB and Logos to retreat to attack a weakened Minerva again when the battle was highly in Minerva's favor.

Those deaths weren't avoidable. If anything more should have died as ORB dug their own grave with Logos. Kira instead allowed them to retreat again with his interference which in turn later lead to ORB openly protecting Djibri due to said traitors still being alive BECAUSE of Kira.

So by Kira trying to save a bunch of fools that wanted to march towards their deaths he allowed for ORB's second Invasion and the deaths of even more. Thus where Kira tries to save a few worthless lives he ends up causing the loss of many worthy lives.

Hell, if Neo had died earlier by Shinn than the Battle of Berlin would never have happened in the first place. Thus Kira's hands are stained with the blood of those as well as those that Djibri killed. This is all because Kira is short-sighted, close-minded, and is never able to see the larger picture - only what's happening in front of him and than trying to justify his antics.
Destined_Fate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-08, 16:43   Link #9520
Deadpool2000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Sometimes I wonder if people aren't watching different shows...
Deadpool2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
mecha, seed it and weep

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 17:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.