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Old 2013-10-08, 17:18   Link #9521
Aquaman OS
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I'm more wondering just why so many people are hardcore Zaft supporters to the point they want EA and Orb to die by the thousands, when we barely ever see anybody from Plant.

Is is just Luna's legs? I mean Shinn can't seriously be THAT likable. He's intentionally designed to be a jerk/Darth Vader expy. (and this isn't even Kira's fault because they had 20ish episodes to make him likable and they didn't) Are people that against pacifism that they like Shinn just because he's angry and kills people vs being saintly and pacifistic? It's not like Shinn's fight's are any more entertaining than Kira's. Grunts line and die for him just as easily as they line up to be disabled for Kira.
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Old 2013-10-08, 17:50   Link #9522
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Originally Posted by zeroexia View Post
monster's got what I meant.

The line between good and evil in war is always blurry but since Gundam is a fictional show presented by a fixed narrative, the actions of certain characters are framed differently. Similar to how one's hero is another's villain. It's all about the way the actions are presented that determine who's right.

In Shinn's case, of course for ZAFT he's a hero for destroying the enemy. But for ORB and EF, he's could be seen as a crazed murderer or something to that effect.

For us, the people watching the show, we see his rage and quite frankly his mental instability. That's the way Fukuda decided to show Shinn. That's why we get all those screaming and crazy-eyed shots of Shinn. And this is basically how Shinn fights all the way to the end of the show. Screaming and with crazy rage eyes. And we know later that Shinn was serving on the "wrong side", as decided by the story.

So combine Shinn acting like a crazy murderer without feelings for killing others and serving as a puppet for the "evil dictator" Durundal. We don't get a "good guy" in the frame of the story anymore.

I was noting that this scene is the start of his descent into the "bad guy" role in the story. Then Kira and co. return as the "heroes" as determined by the story.

Now, you can disagree that Kira and co. are right or wrong but the show clearly shows that Kira and co. are the "heroes" of the plot at the end. That's why Shinn joins them at the end, showing he's "good" again at the end. ( I myself was dissatisfied with the treatment of Shinn in the story. He should have been able to recognize his own problems and reform like a proper protagonist but he never gets the chance to. Bad plot writing once again. )

Now for Kira, as I said before, I agree that it was Kira's fault for the position that the Minerva was in before. BUT it still doesn't change that without Kira's intervention in the second battle, they would have died. That's the only thing I'm saying. Stating a fact of the show. Whether or not you want to blame Kira for the situation that resulted in him saving them is up to you. That's your opinion. I don't really care about whether or not Kira is at fault.

I just think that Athrun should have allowed Kira to stop the fighting because think about it. All those Orb people died because Kira didn't stop Shinn. And why didn't he? because Athrun prevented him. Lives could have been saved like in the first battle if Kira was allowed to stop the fighting. It is clear that the death toll in the first battle was low because of Kira's intervention. If Kira didn't intervene in the first battle, it would have ended in massive casualties like the second.

That's why Kira was pissed off at Athrun. Athrun had decided to willingly aid the Minerva to kill Orb soldiers. In other words, he condones the loss of all those lives. Kira doesn't want them to die. That's why he's asking Athrun why Athrun's telling him that nothing should be done to stop the deaths.

So Athrun looks like a jerk for wanting people to die. Deaths that could be avoided.
I agree with everything you said. I understand, depending on which side you take, you view the others as in the wrong, but really it gets plain ridiculous for this particular show. Shin isn't hated by many for his actions, but the way he portrays himself as rude, arrogant and has no respect for authority. Kira is misinterpreted as "Jesus Yamato" (Gosh, I hate this moniker), not because he's self-righteous, which he's not, but because of his close encounters with death. Both have been revealed. He was saved by Lowe Guele from the Aegis self-destruction. He survived the sword pierce by Shin, because his cockpit is higher than average mobile suits. If you bring up the explosion, you can say the same for Shin. He was right at ground zero so to speak.

Really, the only people that ruin this show are the fans themselves. They voice all their complaints and have ruin it for those that enjoy the show. Someone has already mentioned Nataku from youtube spamming the comments section with his negativity (Yes, he's still doing it even more then halfway through the season). Why do people want to argue so much about who's right, or whatever reasons. What gets me is people either take things to literally or purposefully believe their own conclusions instead of what the show is actually portraying. An example is the "Cagalli's crying" rhetoric that's been talked about recently.

Let me say, I'm not pointing figures at anyone at this thread. I don't mean to insinuate anyone. I'm just listing some of the topics I've come across the GSD fandom in general that have been overdone to death.
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Old 2013-10-08, 18:57   Link #9523
RES-01 Perses Gundam
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Not blurry when Kira was clearly in the wrong in these situations.

Actually that's wrong. The EF, after Logos is revealed, see Shinn as a Hero too because he's the face that's used to take out Logos. Only ORB is against Shinn and even than that's ORB's own fault for siding with Logos even after they were revealed. ORB was asking to be destroyed and the sad thing is that it wasn't. Bunch of hypocrites with naive idealism who never believe they're in the wrong even when they are. Hell, they're the ones that made the first 5 G's in secret to give to Blue Cosmos in SEED!
You need to understand that the Orb government is not a monolithic group. Even as the Tiger of Orb dominated politics and shaped Orb's pacifist policy there are other political families that did not share his methods and ideals and clandestinely sought to undermine him. One faction of Orb built the G weapons for the AF without his approval nor the government.

Quote:
Shinn's side was only wrong because it lost. PLANTs, Mars, and even the Feds had accepted Durandal's plan. Only ORB and a few rebels were against it because they didn't like Durandal. Considering that the Destiny plan worked on Mars I would say Durandal's plan to end war was at a good start, far better than the alternative Kira offered which is more war and beating up those that don't agree with him.

The show clearly shows Kira doesn't know what he wants half the time and the other half he's being a hypocrite.
Tsk, if you were in their shoes would you accept Durandal's plan? It goes against human intuition, the desire to achieve our dreams and improve our current lot. In SEED it led to war but that doesn't mean humanity should stop having dreams. It's like the Fukushima incident. The nuclear leak underlined the perils of nuclear energy, but that doesn't mean we abandon nuclear energy altogether when there are irrefutable benefits. So how to reconcile the dangers with the benefits? Ask Kira, that's what he tried to do.

Quote:
Those ORB hypocrites deserved to die. They knew Cagalli was in the Strike Rouge yet they chose to fire upon her and to follow orders they didn't agree with because of "Ideals". Shinn was justified in killing them, Kira wasn't justified in trying to save them since they chose to fight Shinn of their own free will.
What's wrong with following the orders that were issued to you? That's the least you expect from soldiers who serve in a disciplined organisation such as the military. Even if you got your misgivings you just sucked it up. That doesn't mean they disagreed with Orb's ideals. In fact, based on how they were reluctant to shoot Cagalli and fight Archangel head on, they just wanted to complete their mission of destroying Minerva. Following orders took precedence above all.

Quote:
Those deaths weren't avoidable. If anything more should have died as ORB dug their own grave with Logos. Kira instead allowed them to retreat again with his interference which in turn later lead to ORB openly protecting Djibri due to said traitors still being alive BECAUSE of Kira.

So by Kira trying to save a bunch of fools that wanted to march towards their deaths he allowed for ORB's second Invasion and the deaths of even more. Thus where Kira tries to save a few worthless lives he ends up causing the loss of many worthy lives.
That's like saying Neville Chamberlain caused the 2nd World War by repeatedly appeasing Hitler.
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Old 2013-10-08, 20:22   Link #9524
The American Average
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
I'm more wondering just why so many people are hardcore Zaft supporters to the point they want EA and Orb to die by the thousands, when we barely ever see anybody from Plant.
come on now, every gundam group from any series has its super supporters. Space Nazis are apparently good guys now according to the ovas.

to me it seems people just hate to hate destiny, just like AGE and ZZ. theres no real point in running around screaming how bad something is, but people do anyways. On both sides really, the anti-fan and pro-fans.

Spoiler:
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Old 2013-10-08, 20:58   Link #9525
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I wanna know why do they still try? They just come with the same redundant crap. All their proving is how Destiny and it's character's are still relevant to this day whether loved or hated.
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Old 2013-10-09, 00:15   Link #9526
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Originally Posted by RES-01 Perses Gundam View Post
You need to understand that the Orb government is not a monolithic group. Even as the Tiger of Orb dominated politics and shaped Orb's pacifist policy there are other political families that did not share his methods and ideals and clandestinely sought to undermine him. One faction of Orb built the G weapons for the AF without his approval nor the government.



Tsk, if you were in their shoes would you accept Durandal's plan? It goes against human intuition, the desire to achieve our dreams and improve our current lot. In SEED it led to war but that doesn't mean humanity should stop having dreams. It's like the Fukushima incident. The nuclear leak underlined the perils of nuclear energy, but that doesn't mean we abandon nuclear energy altogether when there are irrefutable benefits. So how to reconcile the dangers with the benefits? Ask Kira, that's what he tried to do.



What's wrong with following the orders that were issued to you? That's the least you expect from soldiers who serve in a disciplined organisation such as the military. Even if you got your misgivings you just sucked it up. That doesn't mean they disagreed with Orb's ideals. In fact, based on how they were reluctant to shoot Cagalli and fight Archangel head on, they just wanted to complete their mission of destroying Minerva. Following orders took precedence above all.



That's like saying Neville Chamberlain caused the 2nd World War by repeatedly appeasing Hitler.
Doesn't matter if they were all of one mind or not. It happened on ORB's watch and the "Tiger" of Orb knew who were the families that were causing issues. Hell he had his daughter engaged to the son of one of the leading rebellious families to appease them as he didn't have the will to do what was needed as he was weak. What's worse is that he took all his most trusted retainers, but a select few, and had them commit suicide with him. This in turn left only the rebellious and self-serving ones left to aid Cagalli which paved the way for ORB's situation in Destiny.

Cagalli's father really lacked foresight because ideals, honor, and foolish pride destroyed what logical thinking he may have had at one point and ORB was worst off due to this.

Their only reason for rebelling is not for self-righteousness, human choice, or the such. No, the only reason is because they knew Durandal saw Lacus as a threat and he was right. As long as Lacus, and her slave Kira, lived they would never let there be peace unless they were the ones that dictated it directly. Time and again Durandal was proven right about this from SEED events to Destiny events due to Kira's constant interfering and acting independently to shoot all sides that weren't obeying his naive desires.

Durandal was also justified in tossing out Athrun. He had reason to believe that Athrun was affected by Kira and he knew of their past relationship. Thus it was only a matter of time for Athrun to betray him, so better to remove him before an ally turned into a mortal enemy that would prolong the wars.

Following orders? They ignored Cagalli's orders, which trumped Yuna's - especially since the marriage never went through, and obey'd Yuna's. They shot at their own Princess who has authority over anyone in her country. Hell earlier in the series Yuna publicly embarrasses her by showing that the Soldiers were weak and chose to obey him over Cagalli even as they two were in the same room with said soldiers.

Thus they betrayed their own ideals, Cagalli even called them out on it. Yet they followed orders from Yuna anyway because of "ideals" that weren't in fact ORB's but Logos/Feds and they knew it yet still obeyed despite the fact that Cagalli's orders should trump all orders in ORB. Such soldiers are traitors and fools, they also chose to die for "ideals" that weren't their own and to attack their own leader that was the embodiment of their true ideals. So yes, they should have all died for their betrayal of their nation, its ideals, serving a traitor willingly, and attacking their own Princess when they knew it was her as well as bringing war to ORB's footsteps and later harboring the Logos Leader.

In a way he did as he allowed Hitler the time and means to foster a power base while he played him for a fool.
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Old 2013-10-09, 00:55   Link #9527
Aquaman OS
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It's funny cause "Do what is necessery" is not even close to what the theme of CE is supposed to be. If it was then one side would have just exterminated the other. No more Naturals or Coordinators. No more war.

By that logic Rau was "doing what was necessery." Kill everybody? No more war.
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Old 2013-10-09, 03:33   Link #9528
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http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/20001...undam/67344331

I can't escape it, Animesuki. No matter where I go it's the same thing.

edit: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...hazan/0001.jpg oh god Aquaman is the guy right above me.

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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Following orders? They ignored Cagalli's orders, which trumped Yuna's - especially since the marriage never went through, and obey'd Yuna's. They shot at their own Princess who has authority over anyone in her country. Hell earlier in the series Yuna publicly embarrasses her by showing that the Soldiers were weak and chose to obey him over Cagalli even as they two were in the same room with said soldiers.

Thus they betrayed their own ideals, Cagalli even called them out on it.
You're basically admitting that Cagalli is insanely self-centered, views herself as a living ideal others have to follow (not listening to her = oh noes they betrayed their ideals), and she thinks anything other than her own ideals/herself is automatically evil. Just wanted to point that out.

Last edited by Hagoshod; 2013-10-09 at 04:02.
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Old 2013-10-09, 03:38   Link #9529
Aquaman OS
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Some guy on /m is defending me too.

This isn't a good day for you is it?

And I'm never even one of the people that thinks Destiny is good.
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Old 2013-10-09, 03:39   Link #9530
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
It's funny cause "Do what is necessery" is not even close to what the theme of CE is supposed to be. If it was then one side would have just exterminated the other. No more Naturals or Coordinators. No more war.

By that logic Rau was "doing what was necessery." Kill everybody? No more war.
Rau was right.

Rau for President.
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Old 2013-10-09, 04:00   Link #9531
The American Average
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Really? everywhere people complain and analyze the hell out this show, its crazy.

i'm with "I Fail at Life"
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Originally Posted by I Fail at Life View Post
I wanna know why do they still try? They just come with the same redundant crap. All their proving is how Destiny and it's character's are still relevant to this day whether loved or hated.
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Old 2013-10-09, 04:13   Link #9532
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Some guy on /m is defending me too.
oh COME ON.
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Old 2013-10-09, 11:24   Link #9533
Destined_Fate
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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/20001...undam/67344331

I can't escape it, Animesuki. No matter where I go it's the same thing.

edit: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...hazan/0001.jpg oh god Aquaman is the guy right above me.


You're basically admitting that Cagalli is insanely self-centered, views herself as a living ideal others have to follow (not listening to her = oh noes they betrayed their ideals), and she thinks anything other than her own ideals/herself is automatically evil. Just wanted to point that out.
No, you're not paying attention.

Cagalli is their Princess, she has supreme authority upon ORB and its people as that's how their Government works. Furthermore Cagalli is the living representation of ORB's ideals as she lives by it and never gives up on it even when it made her look foolish. While the ORB soldiers gave up on ORB and its ideals in Destiny and brought war and destruction to ORB.

And yes, Yuna was evil as he plotted to steal power for the longest time, use her as a puppet, he constantly undermined her in front of everyone to embarrass, constantly flaunted his power and her lack of power, chided her as being clueless, guilt tripped her whenever could, blocked her access from her friends and family, as well as force her into a loveless marriage where he was the dominate one so he could rule with legitimacy through the marriage. He also knowingly also sided with Logos when he knew what they were trying to do because he was bought out by them.

Not to mention that the ORB soldiers knew they were wrong for betraying ORB, its people, its ideals, refusing to obey orders from Cagalli, and than knowingly attacked her anyway.
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Old 2013-10-09, 13:01   Link #9534
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and never gives up on it even when it made her look foolish.
She doesn't give a shit when she knows Djibril is defiling her precious homeland, but then frantically trying to get in the Skygrasper and dealing with the issue personallly RIGHT FUCKING NOW suddenly becomes an option for her when Durandal is the one defiling her homeland.

Nope. She's full of shit, and she's just as fallible as any other non-super-idealized jackoff. I could have a little bit of respect for that if she were ever honest about it, but the show never gives you that either. Instead she just keeps saying Durandal is somehow the one to blame for her own shortsighted mistakes.
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Old 2013-10-09, 13:05   Link #9535
zeroexia
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Not blurry when Kira was clearly in the wrong in these situations.

Actually that's wrong. The EF, after Logos is revealed, see Shinn as a Hero too because he's the face that's used to take out Logos. Only ORB is against Shinn and even than that's ORB's own fault for siding with Logos even after they were revealed. ORB was asking to be destroyed and the sad thing is that it wasn't. Bunch of hypocrites with naive idealism who never believe they're in the wrong even when they are. Hell, they're the ones that made the first 5 G's in secret to give to Blue Cosmos in SEED!

Shinn's side was only wrong because it lost. PLANTs, Mars, and even the Feds had accepted Durandal's plan. Only ORB and a few rebels were against it because they didn't like Durandal. Considering that the Destiny plan worked on Mars I would say Durandal's plan to end war was at a good start, far better than the alternative Kira offered which is more war and beating up those that don't agree with him.

The show clearly shows Kira doesn't know what he wants half the time and the other half he's being a hypocrite.

The Minerva would never have been in that situation in the first place if it wasn't for Kira's antics. Thus what contributions he had aren't a plus, they're just him trying to make up for his mistake which he didn't really do. All he did was take down one guy, to repay killing Heine, than fighting with Athrun while Shinn took out most of the ORB and Logos forces all by himself after going SEED.

Thus not an opinion as that's what happened. Kira put them in that situation because of his antics and when he arrived he took out on guy than fought Athrun while Shinn did all the real work. It wasn't even an even trade as before Logos and ORB were screwed in the last battle, while in this one they were able to still retreat after Shinn demolished therm because of the damage Minerva sustained from the other battle and this one all due to Kira.

Those ORB hypocrites deserved to die. They knew Cagalli was in the Strike Rouge yet they chose to fire upon her and to follow orders they didn't agree with because of "Ideals". Shinn was justified in killing them, Kira wasn't justified in trying to save them since they chose to fight Shinn of their own free will.

Kira not wanting them to die is irrelevant. He knows darn well they chose to go to war, he has no right to get in the way of them throwing their lives away as that was their choice. However, because Kira decided he was right, and they were all wrong, he got in the way which got Heine killed, severely damaged the Minerva and their Gundams, and allowed ORB and Logos to retreat to attack a weakened Minerva again when the battle was highly in Minerva's favor.

Those deaths weren't avoidable. If anything more should have died as ORB dug their own grave with Logos. Kira instead allowed them to retreat again with his interference which in turn later lead to ORB openly protecting Djibri due to said traitors still being alive BECAUSE of Kira.

So by Kira trying to save a bunch of fools that wanted to march towards their deaths he allowed for ORB's second Invasion and the deaths of even more. Thus where Kira tries to save a few worthless lives he ends up causing the loss of many worthy lives.

Hell, if Neo had died earlier by Shinn than the Battle of Berlin would never have happened in the first place. Thus Kira's hands are stained with the blood of those as well as those that Djibri killed. This is all because Kira is short-sighted, close-minded, and is never able to see the larger picture - only what's happening in front of him and than trying to justify his antics.
I just had an epiphany. You're exactly like Shinn. No, you're Shinn incarnate. Your undying hatred of Orb is exactly like Shinn's. Talking about how Orb's ideals are naive idealism and hypocrites. Exactly like Shinn. No wonder you identify with ZAFT and Shinn so much. I realize it's impossible for you to see this in a different light because you're already so biased against non-ZAFT. You actually wanted the Destiny Plan to succeed and Durundal to win. Basically the Shinn of this forum. And just like Shinn your blind hatred of Kira and Orb makes you lash out against anything positive about them. Its like Durundal brain washed you too.

Anyways your whole ramble is based on the presumption that Dullundal and ZAFT were wrong only because they lost. An erroneous conclusion because there is a whole list of proof that shows they were evil. Hell, Durundal has been shown to cause or be connected to most of the catastrophes in the show.

From the Astray Manga series:

We know that he sent Canard Pars, a failed member of the Ultimate Coordinator Project, to kill Kira Yamato.

That he had a mole named Matias Adukurf in LOGOS to provide him with all their intel, hence how he had the Destroy Plans and Requiem.

The sister of this mole instigated the terrorists who dropped Junius 7.

From the Anime Series:

Coordinators part of an elite ZAFT special forces with special mobile suits only for special forces of ZAFT tried to assassinate Lacus.

He had a fake Lacus to aid him in convincing the people. This fake Lacus was killed by Coordinators who were trying to kill the real Lacus.

He ordered Athrun to be arrested when Athrun started to doubt ZAFT but without any legitimate reason before hand.

When he reveals LOGOS,which had a mole in all this time, he deliberately deleted any involvement of the Freedom or Archangel against the Destroy.

He had a death star, Messiah all along.

He took control of the Requiem, that he already knew existed, to use as a weapon to attack any opposition to his Destiny Plan.

Those who opposed his plan, namely the Atlantic Federation and Orb, were labeled as enemies of Humanity and remnants of LOGOS. And so he decided to use Requiem on all of them, starting with the AF's moon base and then decided to target "EVERYBODY LIVING IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY OF ORB" Sound like a really good guy, don't you think?

His Destiny Plan itself is based on Genetic Determinism, which of course greatly favors Coordinators SINCE THEIR GENES ARE ALREADY GENETICALLY DETERMINED. And he himself oversees this entire plan.

I'm sure there's more out there but I think my point has been given clearly enough.

I mean if you can't see that this guy is evil..... Something's wrong your perception of things. Unless of course, you just really hate Orb and Kira so much you're blinded by it.

Besides the Destiny Plan of Mars worked because there wasn't a guy pointing a super massive weapon of mass destruction at anybody who opposed it.
I mean you can blame the characters of Destiny for having multiple character flaws, mostly due to bad writing, but you can't deny that Dullundal was the REALLY BAD GUY.
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Old 2013-10-09, 13:51   Link #9536
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Ay caramba. All of this shows that the scars of Gundam SEED Destiny are still very present and still very raw. I wonder how our Japanese colleagues could eat all of this up. I sometimes wish that we can show them our own sci-fi shows and such.

And as for SEED Destiny, it is a very good if not perfect example of a rushed and sloppy job. Had they thought things through, we wouldn't be having this madness. ( The potential was there IMO).
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Old 2013-10-09, 20:53   Link #9537
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Protip, Destined_Fate: It's Orb, not ORB. Unless you know what that acronym stands for.

I'm going to just put up some of my thoughts regarding ZAFT.

At the start of the Bloody Valentine War, ZAFT actually held the moral high ground. ZAFT was formed to defend the PLANTs from the aggression of the sponsor nations, and first went into combat against the blockade of the PLANTs. Then came the Copernicus Bombing, which led to the formation of the Earth Alliance and a declaration of war against the PLANTs (again, the ZAFT is not the aggressor here).

(This does depend, however, on who actually was responsible for the Copernicus Bombing. Cui bono - Latin for "who benefits", which is a good question to ask when determining motive. I'll submit that on the balance of probabilities, it's more likely that Copernicus was the responsibility of Blue Cosmos or the Atlantic Federation; the Lant Feds have done some pretty douchebag moves to secure their position, so this isn't entirely out of character. Of course, it's possible that ZAFT hardliners ran a false flag op to kickstart a war, but implications are that they weren't really powerful enough for something like that, and Patrick Zala hadn't become a hardliner then. However, this is distracting from what I am wanting to discuss at the moment, so I'm tabling Copernicus. I'll probably come back to this subject next week.)

During the opening phases of the war, ZAFT continued to hold the moral high ground, as it was fighting defensively against the EA. That moral superiority was then near-unassailable after Junius Seven was attacked with a nuclear weapon, when the EA used a nuke on a civillian target. Junius Seven was an agricultural colony with no military value, as opposed to Hiroshima and Nagasaki which housed legitimate military targets.

This changes though, as the war goes on. The show draws attention to Andrew Waltfeld's prosecution of the war in Northern Africa, and suggests to the viewers that the relatively benign occupation and his dealing with the resistance is not the norm. (And also accidentally prescient; by my count Waltfeld had less than 30 or so mobile suits, and more infantry, which would make sense in a COIN theater.) Also, as Patrick Zala gains stronger control over the Supreme Council, the PLANTs and ZAFT take a more hardline stance, which trickles down to the troops on the group. Note Panama, where ZAFT mobile suits massacre surrendering EA troops.

By the time the war moves into the final phase, it's pretty clear that both sides have lost the moral high ground. Both EA and ZAFT are intent on committing genocide with nuclear missiles and GENESIS.

...tl;dr: ZAFT started the war with the moral high ground, but by the time the war ended, ZAFT and EA were in the same gutter. Both are douches, but the EA is more of a douche than ZAFT.

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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
No, you're not paying attention.

Cagalli is their Princess, she has supreme authority upon ORB and its people as that's how their Government works. Furthermore Cagalli is the living representation of ORB's ideals as she lives by it and never gives up on it even when it made her look foolish. While the ORB soldiers gave up on ORB and its ideals in Destiny and brought war and destruction to ORB.
That depends on whether Orb is an absolute monarchy or a constitutional monarchy or some fucked up thing in-between.

If it's a constitutional monarchy, to give an example from the British: Queen Elizabeth might show up and give a direct order to the CO of HMS Invincible with regards to his air wing. But her position as Commander-in-Chief of the British Military doesn't exactly mean she's in the chain of command. It's a ceremonial position. She's not in the chain of command. She doesn't have the legal authority to take charge.

Also, politically, I'd always had the impression that Cagalli was - unfortunately - little more than a figurehead. As in any constitutional monarchy/democracy, the Head of State - Cagalli - holds very little actual power compared to the Head of Government - the Prime Minister. (America is different in this regard as the President is both Head of State as well as Head of Government.)

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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
And yes, Yuna was evil as he plotted to steal power for the longest time, use her as a puppet, he constantly undermined her in front of everyone to embarrass, constantly flaunted his power and her lack of power, chided her as being clueless, guilt tripped her whenever could, blocked her access from her friends and family, as well as force her into a loveless marriage where he was the dominate one so he could rule with legitimacy through the marriage. He also knowingly also sided with Logos when he knew what they were trying to do because he was bought out by them.
No disagreements here, though to borrow a term from Tom Kratman, I'd suggest Yuna was more of an amoral familiarist, looking out for his family first and everything else second. (Tangentially, this is also why Afghanistan (and Iraq to a lesser degree) have trouble with the concept of a national identity, because they're very tribally-based.)

Quote:
Not to mention that the ORB soldiers knew they were wrong for betraying ORB, its people, its ideals, refusing to obey orders from Cagalli, and than knowingly attacked her anyway.
Actually, no. As I mentioned above, as Head of Government, Cagalli's position as Commander-in-Chief is ceremonial. And again, her showing up and giving orders is pissing all over the chain of command. What they are doing is following their orders as handed down though the chain of command.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2013-10-09 at 21:07.
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Old 2013-10-09, 22:10   Link #9538
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[QUOTE=Aquaman OS;4862790 I mean Shinn can't seriously be THAT likable. He's intentionally designed to be a jerk/Darth Vader expy. [/QUOTE]

Not too surprising; Fukuda has stated that Star Wars was his favorite film series.

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I just had an epiphany. You're exactly like Shinn. No, you're Shinn incarnate. Your undying hatred of Orb is exactly like Shinn's. Talking about how Orb's ideals are naive idealism and hypocrites. Exactly like Shinn. No wonder you identify with ZAFT and Shinn so much. I realize it's impossible for you to see this in a different light because you're already so biased against non-ZAFT. You actually wanted the Destiny Plan to succeed and Durundal to win. Basically the Shinn of this forum. And just like Shinn your blind hatred of Kira and Orb makes you lash out against anything positive about them. Its like Durundal brain washed you too.

Anyways your whole ramble is based on the presumption that Dullundal and ZAFT were wrong only because they lost. An erroneous conclusion because there is a whole list of proof that shows they were evil. Hell, Durundal has been shown to cause or be connected to most of the catastrophes in the show.

From the Astray Manga series:

We know that he sent Canard Pars, a failed member of the Ultimate Coordinator Project, to kill Kira Yamato.

That he had a mole named Matias Adukurf in LOGOS to provide him with all their intel, hence how he had the Destroy Plans and Requiem.

The sister of this mole instigated the terrorists who dropped Junius 7.

From the Anime Series:

Coordinators part of an elite ZAFT special forces with special mobile suits only for special forces of ZAFT tried to assassinate Lacus.

He had a fake Lacus to aid him in convincing the people. This fake Lacus was killed by Coordinators who were trying to kill the real Lacus.

He ordered Athrun to be arrested when Athrun started to doubt ZAFT but without any legitimate reason before hand.

When he reveals LOGOS,which had a mole in all this time, he deliberately deleted any involvement of the Freedom or Archangel against the Destroy.

He had a death star, Messiah all along.

He took control of the Requiem, that he already knew existed, to use as a weapon to attack any opposition to his Destiny Plan.

Those who opposed his plan, namely the Atlantic Federation and Orb, were labeled as enemies of Humanity and remnants of LOGOS. And so he decided to use Requiem on all of them, starting with the AF's moon base and then decided to target "EVERYBODY LIVING IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY OF ORB" Sound like a really good guy, don't you think?

His Destiny Plan itself is based on Genetic Determinism, which of course greatly favors Coordinators SINCE THEIR GENES ARE ALREADY GENETICALLY DETERMINED. And he himself oversees this entire plan.

I'm sure there's more out there but I think my point has been given clearly enough.

I mean if you can't see that this guy is evil..... Something's wrong your perception of things. Unless of course, you just really hate Orb and Kira so much you're blinded by it.

Besides the Destiny Plan of Mars worked because there wasn't a guy pointing a super massive weapon of mass destruction at anybody who opposed it.
I mean you can blame the characters of Destiny for having multiple character flaws, mostly due to bad writing, but you can't deny that Dullundal was the REALLY BAD GUY.
Astray, manga, Sunrise, unofficial, "only animated works are official", etc.
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Old 2013-10-09, 22:15   Link #9539
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Originally Posted by Washu-Chan View Post
Not too surprising; Fukuda has stated that Star Wars was his favorite film series.



Astray, manga, Sunrise, unofficial, "only animated works are official", etc.
I'll concede that. (although i would use them as secondary canon) I was just pissed off.

Besides I gave more proof in the anime itself. And on Star Wars, Durundal totally had an Emperor seat in Messiah, like an exact copy. I was expecting the Imperial March to play.

On a side note, considering that Astray did have some animated shorts, are those shorts canon?
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Old 2013-10-09, 22:39   Link #9540
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I'll concede that. (although i would use them as secondary canon) I was just pissed off.

Besides I gave more proof in the anime itself. And on Star Wars, Durundal totally had an Emperor seat in Messiah, like an exact copy. I was expecting the Imperial March to play.



The true ending of GSD.

All hail Empress Palpacus and Darth Kira.

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On a side note, considering that Astray did have some animated shorts, are those shorts canon?
The idea of "canon" doesn't exist in Japan, AFAIK.
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