AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Gundam

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-10-12, 23:18   Link #9581
RES-01 Perses Gundam
A Contradiction Beneath
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Singapore
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Peace doesn't work that way. Uzumi was dumb, he killed off most of his loyal staff with him when he knew that there was another faction in ORB that was working against ORB's beliefs for self-gain. Yuna also showed he didn't care what happened to ORB just as long as he gained power and remained in power. He even let Logos hide in ORB because he was bribed into it and owed them favors.
Like I said, he knew that ultimately the Seiran family and their allies would not prevail. If Akatsuki was only to be activated when Orb is at its greatest peril (aka when it is invaded again), Uzumi perhaps didn't think that a bunch of pro-EA politicians selling Orb out would significantly compromise on its ideals and its sovereignty. Like I said before, as long as Orb's ideals were intact, Uzumi reckoned that some short-term pain was necessary (such as allying themselves with the EA).

Quote:
You implied that many were against it. That was wrong, far more supported the Destiny Plan than those that opposed it. After all it was Durandal that ended the race wars and it was Durandal that spearheaded the effort to destroy Logos while Kira and ORB sat on their rears twiddling their thumbs waiting for the chance to kill Durandal.
Woo. I didn't imply that more were against it. Hello, please do something about relatives. Where's your proof that far more supported the Destiny plan? The number of states that supported it? Or Durandal took the silence of states who didn't know how to respond to this controversial plan as consent, such as the USSA, the Eurasian Federation?

Please be reminded that there are ample grounds to believe that Durandal orchestrated the entire conflict, starting from provoking the pro-Patrick Zala extremists into action and purposely leaking top-secret data (cue Destroy's blueprints) to LOGOS so that ZAFT could be given a reason to intervene in Eurasia. Therefore, Durandal didn't stop the racial wars. Through means of espionage, Durandal gave LOGOS the destructive power they lacked to unleash their wave of terror, but gave enough for his team of followers (i.e. Minerva) to stop LOGOS in their tracks once the latter's role was complete. Of course, all this argument is based on the assumption that Durandal did orchestrate this entire fiasco.

Durandal exemplified "the end would justify the means". He didn't care if tensions between Naturals and Coordinators would be exacerbated due to the Break the World incident. Once he achieve his goals (i.e. Destiny plan) he believed this sacrifice would be worth it. But Orb, Kira and co. didn't buy his bluff simply because how many blood has to be shed to achieve that end? How can humanity tolerate having their dreams suppressed and having no means of progression in society simply because your genes said so?

Which brings me to my point that the Destiny plan is doomed to fail. Like communism, it seems to work in theory. The plan would work in a hypothetical world in which humans accept that in exchange for everlasting peace, they allow their education, their career, the people they would have to marry, to be determined by their genes. But we all fucking know that humans aren't like that. We are an evolutionary being which would strive for betterment regardless of our plight and the obstacles of environment, genes or even the family we are born in. Even you, Destined_Fate, is here participating in this circular "debate" because you want it known that Orb, Kira and Cagalli are unscrupulous assholes. Would you stop if the Destiny plan tells you that you are incapable of such debate? No.

Quote:
The only grounds they had was that Durandal tried to kill Lacus and than Athrun. They also ignored that the Destiny Plan was already working and far more wanted it than those that didn't. Not to mention that Durandal was right that change requires you have the power to make it happen. Hence his desire to force the minor rebellious factions to fall in line with the majority was justified.
Okay, so you subscribe to the dictatorship of the majority? The majority of the world was either indebted to Durandal for destroying LOGOS or indirectly elected Durandal as their leader. They wouldn't be in a right frame of mind to afford objective considerations of the plan that Durandal was "offering". While Kira and co. were in some way biased against Durandal, the opposing voice they fought could have at least set the world thinking about issues and problems they never thought existed in the plan.
RES-01 Perses Gundam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-13, 01:06   Link #9582
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Except when Sai says to activate the N-Jammer, he's told that they don't need that. That implies that they were already under the N-Jammer effect, and if both sides utilize N-Jammers in space, then the range is low enough to where one cannot encompass the other mid-battle, unless they were on top of one another.
Memo to self - must make myself rewatch SEED, lol. It's been about what, almost 12 years since I last saw it.

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say - well, I get the first part, implications of being under N-Jammer effect. But the "range is low" - everything from those words on, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. Perhaps a rephrasing might be in order? Sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Which part are you disputing with that image?
The "very wide area of effect part". Note the image shows four N-Jammers being dropped in a cluster into a relatively small area.

Quote:
What do you mean?
If ZAFT dropped N-Jammers everywhere, including Australia and New Zealand, nations allied with ZAFT, something is seriously wrong with whoever's in charge of assembling targets. You are not supposed to bomb your allies.

Quote:
I don't think it's ever been said, but it's certainly not nuclear fission.
Which then raises the question of what the tech is; logically the only other power option that could replace fission is fusion. And if you can do fusion, you still have other WMD options instead of nukes.

@RES-01 Perseus Gundam: You're wasting your time. Destined_Fate has stated in the past that he believes in morality dictated by society, and thus the majority.

I'd elaborate more, except that when I previously questioned him further using real world examples and logical extrapolation, that was sufficient to get me tempbanned for supposedly insulting him.
__________________
~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.

Wild Goose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-13, 02:12   Link #9583
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
The "very wide area of effect part". Note the image shows four N-Jammers being dropped in a cluster into a relatively small area.


If ZAFT dropped N-Jammers everywhere, including Australia and New Zealand, nations allied with ZAFT, something is seriously wrong with whoever's in charge of assembling targets. You are not supposed to bomb your allies.
Ah, I see.

Well, first, I'll just say that the image doesn't necessarily mean anything as far as the area of effect of a neutron jammer is concerned. The official info does say that only a handful were needed to cover the earth but also that ZAFT drove many of them across the earth's surface.

So here are a few things to consider:

- After the Bloody Valentine event, the people in the PLANTs were really angry and they did not want anyone on earth to be able to use nuclear weapons, not to mention the military reason.

- Dropping more than is required increases the chance of success. Some of the jammers might malfunction or be destroyed on their way.

- Dropping multiple jammers in close proximity might increase their effective range as well as the effect itself. Notice how nuclear fission is not used in space, even though the jammers are on earth. Space is so vast that the PLANTs can't possibly protect against a hidden nuclear bomb or even a nuke fired in the midst of battle if the neutron jamming effect doesn't cover a vast area.

- It's possible that the jammers used in warships are implemented differently as they are used specifically for jamming communications during a mission, so they might be more targeted in nature and have a smaller area of effect than the ones used by the jammers driven to earth by ZAFT.
Quote:
Which then raises the question of what the tech is; logically the only other power option that could replace fission is fusion. And if you can do fusion, you still have other WMD options instead of nukes.
Well, whatever it is, the ships can generate enough energy from it on a reliable basis to power their functions.

And they obviously do not have fusion technology if they had to rely on the neutron jammer cancellers to regain nuclear energy.

But, if their mobile suits and warships are any indication, the CE military tech is pretty impressive when it comes to non-nuclear power source. Even a Zaku II from UC is powered by nuclear power even though an Impulse should have a bigger energy requirement.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-13, 02:47   Link #9584
Deadpool2000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Kira decides that Durandal is evil because he ordered the hit on Lacus.
Funny thing: He didn't.

A cadre of coordinator special forces break into his house with ZAFT's new mobile suits and try to kill his girlfriend, and put his life and lives of his friends and mother at risk.

Kira reacts by... NOT ATTACK ZAFT AT ALL. He SUSPECTS Durandal, but he does not denounce him. He makes no move against him, choosing instead of just look to find out WHO ordered the hit.

Durandal is a SUSPECT. Parially because of the Ashes thing, partially for the Coordinator thing, partially for the fake Lacus thing. They still don't make a move on him over it. EVER.

They don't actually go on the offensive until ZAFT takes over Requiem and start nuking people who disagree with them.
Deadpool2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-13, 02:57   Link #9585
cyberdemon
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
If ZAFT dropped N-Jammers everywhere, including Australia and New Zealand, nations allied with ZAFT, something is seriously wrong with whoever's in charge of assembling targets. You are not supposed to bomb your allies.
The problem there is that if ZAFT didn't drop n jammers there, what would there be to stop Blue Cosmos from launching nukes at them and eliminating ZAFT's allies quickly? The primary point of the n jammers was to make sure that neither ZAFT or it's allies would fall victim to a nuclear attack again. If they took the necessary precautions when they still had the ability then they would be better prepared compared to the rest of earth.
__________________

Last edited by cyberdemon; 2013-10-13 at 10:53.
cyberdemon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-13, 03:42   Link #9586
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Ah, I see.

Well, first, I'll just say that the image doesn't necessarily mean anything as far as the area of effect of a neutron jammer is concerned. The official info does say that only a handful were needed to cover the earth but also that ZAFT drove many of them across the earth's surface.

So here are a few things to consider:

- After the Bloody Valentine event, the people in the PLANTs were really angry and they did not want anyone on earth to be able to use nuclear weapons, not to mention the military reason.

- Dropping more than is required increases the chance of success. Some of the jammers might malfunction or be destroyed on their way.

- Dropping multiple jammers in close proximity might increase their effective range as well as the effect itself. Notice how nuclear fission is not used in space, even though the jammers are on earth. Space is so vast that the PLANTs can't possibly protect against a hidden nuclear bomb or even a nuke fired in the midst of battle if the neutron jamming effect doesn't cover a vast area.

- It's possible that the jammers used in warships are implemented differently as they are used specifically for jamming communications during a mission, so they might be more targeted in nature and have a smaller area of effect than the ones used by the jammers driven to earth by ZAFT. Well, whatever it is, the ships can generate enough energy from it on a reliable basis to power their functions.
All good points, particularly your point on redundancy. That said, I do have to wonder how ZAFT managed to get N-Jammer coverage under the oceans, given that if they'd fired those N-Jammers into the sea, they'd have been crushed by water pressure before hitting the seabed (well, once you go beyond littoral waters).

However, I should note that in space, nukes are actually less effective compared to atmosphere, since being in a vacuum, you can't have the pressure wave formed by the nuclear blast, there being nothing to displace. So really, even if N-Jammers aren't long-ranged, all you'd need is to have them on your ships and at your PLANTs; any nuke fired at you turns into a kinetic energy weapon with a solid warhead, and the most damage it'd do would be spreading radioactive materials and starting fuel fires on impact. Which is still bad, but not as devastating as a nuclear weapon initiating.

Quote:
And they obviously do not have fusion technology if they had to rely on the neutron jammer cancellers to regain nuclear energy.
I don't know, I think we'll have to disagree on that. *shrug* It could simply be that the level of fusion technology they have is not at the level that can yet be easily be repurposed for civillian use. For example, the nuclear reactors on US carriers and submarines are designed differently than civilian power-generating reactors, and can't be easily adapted to civilian use.

Quote:
But, if their mobile suits and warships are any indication, the CE military tech is pretty impressive when it comes to non-nuclear power source. Even a Zaku II from UC is powered by nuclear power even though an Impulse should have a bigger energy requirement.
It does make me wonder what goes into those batteries of theirs. The ships need to have some way of generating power to recharge batteries and keep themselves mobile if they aren't using fission and don't have fossil fuels.

Magic. Just like Muv-Luv economies. *throws hands up in the air*

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberdemon View Post
The problem there is that if ZAFT didn't drop nukes there, what would there be to stop Blue Cosmos from launching nukes at them and eliminating ZAFT's allies quickly? The primary point of the n jammers was to make sure that neither ZAFT or it's allies would fall victim to a nuclear attack again. If they took the necessary precautions when they still had the ability then they would be better prepared compared to the rest of earth.
Hmmm, good point. I hadn't considered it from the protective deployment angle.

This hopes, then, that ZAFT informed the Oceanic Union of its intentions and took steps to help that nation prepare for the N-Jammers, since by Destiny both polities appear to still be allied.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Funny thing: He didn't.
Touche. You're quite right - went back and speed-marathoned. Well, in this case, Kira wasn't being a teenager.

-=-

One unfortunate implication of SEED Destiny though: Happy Coordinator couples. Consider. There's no interracial couple actually working out and lasting throughout Destiny; Dearka and Mir break up (albeit long distance relationships are tricky), as do Athrun and Cagalli, with Athrun going for Meyrin. And of course there's Kira and Lacus, with Shinn and Luna.

*shrugs*

The implications are a little unfortunate.

As an aside, regarding the lower Coordinator birthrates, I've always felt that was somewhat analogous to the AK-47 and M16. Naturals, being AKs, are build with looser tolerances, while Coordinators are M16s with tighter tolerances. This means that things need to be juuuuust right to produce a Coordinator child, whereas with Natural children the process has been ongoing since time immemorial.
__________________
~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.

Wild Goose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-13, 04:54   Link #9587
Aquaman OS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Although his suspicions about Durandal did cause him to have a wary view of Zaft, refusing all contact with them, not backing their early campaign when they seemed to be completely legit, not supporting the Logos hunt etc, even if he didn't go out of his way to attack them if he didn't have a greater goal in mind.

He might not have immediately gone after Durandal's head, but it certainly colored his perception of the war to be very anti Zaft.
Aquaman OS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-13, 05:29   Link #9588
CBredbeard
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
If ZAFT dropped N-Jammers everywhere, including Australia and New Zealand, nations allied with ZAFT, something is seriously wrong with whoever's in charge of assembling targets. You are not supposed to bomb your allies.
Why not? If the area of effect is not discriminate when used on such a large scale (indeed, the scale may not be something that could manipulated), then dropping them into allied territory only makes sense.

Quote:
Which then raises the question of what the tech is; logically the only other power option that could replace fission is fusion. And if you can do fusion, you still have other WMD options instead of nukes.
Thermonuclear devices use nuclear detonators. Although it might be possible to use a matter/anti-matter reaction, I don't think I'd want to keep one of those in the back seat of my car...

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
And they obviously do not have fusion technology if they had to rely on the neutron jammer cancellers to regain nuclear energy.

But, if their mobile suits and warships are any indication, the CE military tech is pretty impressive when it comes to non-nuclear power source. Even a Zaku II from UC is powered by nuclear power even though an Impulse should have a bigger energy requirement.
They might not be able to make cheap, compact fusion reactors. The UC particle hax is such that you could whip out a portable fusion generator you keep in your basement whenever the lights go out. Although the CE's mastery over fission seems to be as comparable, it's simply not as wide spread for obvious reasons.

Of course, their battery packs are damn amazing. Running a mobile suit for hours on nothing but stored energy...
CBredbeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-13, 05:52   Link #9589
Hagoshod
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Send a message via AIM to Hagoshod
Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
Why thank you for the compliment. Would you be so kind as to compliment us some more please.


And that is the last I have to say about that.
Hagoshod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-13, 08:24   Link #9590
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
Why not? If the area of effect is not discriminate when used on such a large scale (indeed, the scale may not be something that could manipulated), then dropping them into allied territory only makes sense.
Well, my reasoning is that any sane and competent targeter would have to know the probable area of effect (because FFS you don't drop a bomb without knowing what the projected blast radius is going to be) before he prepares his deployment plan.

Also, I am completely at a loss as to understanding your statement above. Please clarify. Because it looks like you have no problem with taking out the infrastructure of you allies. That's like the NATO taking out Serbia's infrastructure, and then on the way doing the same to Germany.

Admittedly, it's not as bad as it appears if ZAFT gave alternate means of power generation to Australia and New Zealand; we know there are N-Jammers at the PLANTs, and yet they're functioning fine. Can't be entirely solar power.

Quote:
Thermonuclear devices use nuclear detonators. Although it might be possible to use a matter/anti-matter reaction, I don't think I'd want to keep one of those in the back seat of my car...
It is useful for getting around WMD treaties though. I recall a scene from The 08th MS Team, where one EFA officer plans to send in a couple of Ground GM[G]s and then overload their reactors, causing them to blow up with equivalent power to small nukes. Hence the problems in colony fighting in Unicorn, where Marida kept trying to minimize collateral damage and kept blowing up those Londo Bell ReZELs, and when Ra Cailum's Tri-Stars were so panicky when that sniper-configured Zaku I tried to suicide itself...

...yeah, those are strong arguments for not having one in the back seat.
__________________
~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.

Wild Goose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-13, 09:06   Link #9591
CBredbeard
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Also, I am completely at a loss as to understanding your statement above. Please clarify. Because it looks like you have no problem with taking out the infrastructure of you allies. That's like the NATO taking out Serbia's infrastructure, and then on the way doing the same to Germany.

Admittedly, it's not as bad as it appears if ZAFT gave alternate means of power generation to Australia and New Zealand; we know there are N-Jammers at the PLANTs, and yet they're functioning fine. Can't be entirely solar power.
Plant had been nuked. Under those circumstances, there aren't very many choices available as far as a response goes. Assuming Plant had it's own nuclear arsenal (I doubt they had a very large one, if any), they could have retaliated with nukes of their own...which would prompt the Earth to wipe them out completely.

They could have used N-Jammers to safeguard Plant from further nuclear attack...but this also has the consequence of diminishing their own economy and disrupting their own communications. It leaves the Earth in an even stronger position than they already have.

Option Three is saturate the Earth with N-Jammers as both a means of retaliating and safeguarding Plant. It also has the added benefit of crippling the Earth's significantly more powerful economy and military. And as has been pointed out, a handful of Jammers will cover the Earth and the surrounding space. Plant has to use multiple Jammers to ensure that the Earth doesn't dig them up.

The effect seems to have a very low power requirement since the Jammers will continue to operate for years after being plunged down into the ground. The effect also seems to increase in size when an active jammer is near another. In short, there probably wasn't a way to avoid crippling themselves if they were going to use the jammers at all. They are a very large and blunt instrument, and while it may seem like it'd make sense that surgical use would be possible, that the scale could be toned down, everything we know about them points to the opposite being true.

There is no mass shielding against the effect. The earth does nothing to block it. If it were as simple as a lead lining and a tons of concrete, than the reactors should have already had shielding.

So why would Plant use N-Jammers if their allies as well as themselves would also have to bite the bullet? Because the alternative was a war they could not win. If the went nuclear, everyone would die. If they fought conventionally, they'd be crushed by the sheer size of their opponent, despite their conventional advantages.

Basically the N-Jammers were the only humane option available to them.

Quote:
It is useful for getting around WMD treaties though. I recall a scene from The 08th MS Team, where one EFA officer plans to send in a couple of Ground GM[G]s and then overload their reactors, causing them to blow up with equivalent power to small nukes. Hence the problems in colony fighting in Unicorn, where Marida kept trying to minimize collateral damage and kept blowing up those Londo Bell ReZELs, and when Ra Cailum's Tri-Stars were so panicky when that sniper-configured Zaku I tried to suicide itself...

...yeah, those are strong arguments for not having one in the back seat.
I wouldn't mind having a thermonuclear device near me. I wouldn't mind having a nuclear device near me. I would be very worried being near a matter/anti-matter device near me. Unlike the first two, which require a great deal of precisely directed force to get the desired result, with matter/anti-matter it's that you're trying to keep them apart from one another. From doing what comes naturally to them. Which is blowing up. It's like nitroglycerin, but a million times more powerful.
CBredbeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-13, 20:13   Link #9592
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
Basically the N-Jammers were the only humane option available to them.
Okay, point to you. That makes more sense now that you've laid it all out. *nodnod*

Quote:
I wouldn't mind having a thermonuclear device near me. I wouldn't mind having a nuclear device near me. I would be very worried being near a matter/anti-matter device near me. Unlike the first two, which require a great deal of precisely directed force to get the desired result, with matter/anti-matter it's that you're trying to keep them apart from one another. From doing what comes naturally to them. Which is blowing up. It's like nitroglycerin, but a million times more powerful.
Derp. I completely overlooked the antimatter bit. Yeah, antimatter would be a big problem. ^_^;; Doesn't the Lohengrin use some kinda antimatter thingy, btw?
__________________
~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.

Wild Goose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-13, 20:31   Link #9593
Rising Dragon
Goat Herder
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The middle of the Middle of Nowhere
Age: 26
Positrons fire a beam of positrons, which are essentially the antimatter equivalent to electrons.
__________________
Rising Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-13, 20:41   Link #9594
Destined_Fate
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
Quote:
Originally Posted by RES-01 Perses Gundam View Post
Like I said, he knew that ultimately the Seiran family and their allies would not prevail. If Akatsuki was only to be activated when Orb is at its greatest peril (aka when it is invaded again), Uzumi perhaps didn't think that a bunch of pro-EA politicians selling Orb out would significantly compromise on its ideals and its sovereignty. Like I said before, as long as Orb's ideals were intact, Uzumi reckoned that some short-term pain was necessary (such as allying themselves with the EA).



Woo. I didn't imply that more were against it. Hello, please do something about relatives. Where's your proof that far more supported the Destiny plan? The number of states that supported it? Or Durandal took the silence of states who didn't know how to respond to this controversial plan as consent, such as the USSA, the Eurasian Federation?

Please be reminded that there are ample grounds to believe that Durandal orchestrated the entire conflict, starting from provoking the pro-Patrick Zala extremists into action and purposely leaking top-secret data (cue Destroy's blueprints) to LOGOS so that ZAFT could be given a reason to intervene in Eurasia. Therefore, Durandal didn't stop the racial wars. Through means of espionage, Durandal gave LOGOS the destructive power they lacked to unleash their wave of terror, but gave enough for his team of followers (i.e. Minerva) to stop LOGOS in their tracks once the latter's role was complete. Of course, all this argument is based on the assumption that Durandal did orchestrate this entire fiasco.

Durandal exemplified "the end would justify the means". He didn't care if tensions between Naturals and Coordinators would be exacerbated due to the Break the World incident. Once he achieve his goals (i.e. Destiny plan) he believed this sacrifice would be worth it. But Orb, Kira and co. didn't buy his bluff simply because how many blood has to be shed to achieve that end? How can humanity tolerate having their dreams suppressed and having no means of progression in society simply because your genes said so?

Which brings me to my point that the Destiny plan is doomed to fail. Like communism, it seems to work in theory. The plan would work in a hypothetical world in which humans accept that in exchange for everlasting peace, they allow their education, their career, the people they would have to marry, to be determined by their genes. But we all fucking know that humans aren't like that. We are an evolutionary being which would strive for betterment regardless of our plight and the obstacles of environment, genes or even the family we are born in. Even you, Destined_Fate, is here participating in this circular "debate" because you want it known that Orb, Kira and Cagalli are unscrupulous assholes. Would you stop if the Destiny plan tells you that you are incapable of such debate? No.



Okay, so you subscribe to the dictatorship of the majority? The majority of the world was either indebted to Durandal for destroying LOGOS or indirectly elected Durandal as their leader. They wouldn't be in a right frame of mind to afford objective considerations of the plan that Durandal was "offering". While Kira and co. were in some way biased against Durandal, the opposing voice they fought could have at least set the world thinking about issues and problems they never thought existed in the plan.
That still doesn't justify that he killed most of his staff with him. If he cared he would have had them leave and just did it himself. Instead he died and bet, wrongly, on the off-chance that those that want to sell off ORB would retain its values. As Destiny showed, they tossed those values out the window fast when Cagalli was out of the picture.

Dreams are pointless as most people never reach them. At least the Destiny Plan would put them in a station where they can thrive and use their abilities to their complete best.

Destiny Plan would succeed as Durandal had the power to enforce it and because the people desired it. It's also very fair as it's based off ability and potential only.

Speculation, nothing in the show showed that Durandal planned everything. He was simply good at reaading people, taking advantage of emotions, and knew what to say to get things done.

It isn't a Dictatorship when the many are making the decision. And so what? Durandal was their savior, why shouldn't they feel indebted to him? The Destiny Plan was also working on Mars. Kira and co. didn't even consider it, they immediately decided that it was a bad idea and Durandal had to die.
Destined_Fate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-13, 21:00   Link #9595
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Durandal was their savior, why shouldn't they feel indebted to him?
I just want to point out that a great many despots and dictators have followed this exact line of reasoning.
__________________
~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.

Wild Goose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-13, 22:53   Link #9596
Destined_Fate
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
Durandal wasn't a dictator as he didn't want control beyond seeing that the Destiny Plan is implemented and does what it's intended to do. That way people are judged based off their potential instead of personal wealth, reputation, where they were born, or the such.
Destined_Fate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-13, 22:55   Link #9597
Rising Dragon
Goat Herder
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The middle of the Middle of Nowhere
Age: 26
> wants to force everyone into pre-determined slots in life for the rest of existence based entirely on their DNA
> isn't a dictator

Yeah... not really buying that one, Destined_Fate.
__________________
Rising Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-13, 23:12   Link #9598
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Durandal wasn't a dictator as he didn't want control beyond seeing that the Destiny Plan is implemented and does what it's intended to do. That way people are judged based off their potential instead of personal wealth, reputation, where they were born, or the such.
Let me get this straight. You want Durandal to play God and set people into predetermined paths, regardless of free will. It doesn't matter what their personal dreams are, how their life experiences will shape them. Their lives will be preselected for them based on their genes.

I take it you've never watched Gattaca.

In that case, a tiny skinny underweight kid would never have been selected for military service. Except that skinny underweight kid ended up being America's most decorated soldier.

Also, from the prospect of military service, you get better results from a volunteer, someone who chose to serve, as opposed to someone who was shunted into the service. There's a very good reason why most first world countries, especially the US and UK went with a volunteer military as opposed to conscripts. Let's not forget that special forces don't look for someone with the physical ability (genes), they look for that intangible of determination. Quoting from The Warrior Elite, by Dick Couch, BUD/S instructors prefer candidates with the guts to get through, because it's easier to condition physical performance than it is to forge a determined spirit.
__________________
~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.


Last edited by Wild Goose; 2013-10-13 at 23:31.
Wild Goose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-13, 23:16   Link #9599
Deadpool2000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
That still doesn't justify that he killed most of his staff with him.
DID Uzumi kill them? Or did they choose to stay?
Deadpool2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-13, 23:29   Link #9600
zeroexia
he is a CHAR
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post

Dreams are pointless as most people never reach them. At least the Destiny Plan would put them in a station where they can thrive and use their abilities to their complete best.

Destiny Plan would succeed as Durandal had the power to enforce it and because the people desired it. It's also very fair as it's based off ability and potential only.

Speculation, nothing in the show showed that Durandal planned everything. He was simply good at reaading people, taking advantage of emotions, and knew what to say to get things done.

It isn't a Dictatorship when the many are making the decision. And so what? Durandal was their savior, why shouldn't they feel indebted to him? The Destiny Plan was also working on Mars. Kira and co. didn't even consider it, they immediately decided that it was a bad idea and Durandal had to die.


I don't even need to say anything anymore. Everybody else has said it for me. Destined_Fate, I'm not trying to insult you but I'm not sure anymore if you actually believe in the Destiny Plan or hate Kira and co. so much that you would support an Orwellian dictatorship. I'm sure even you wouldn't want to have your entire life determined based on your DNA. Your job, your wife, your home, your occupation, everything. How about if the Destiny Plan called for you to be an untouchable or sewer maintenance worker? And there's nothing you can do because everything is predetermined based on your DNA.

There's nothing about ability or potential. It's merely selection based on DNA. You have no chance to be anything but what has been chosen for you.

You want to see the Destiny Plan in action, look at Hitler, Mao, Stalin, and ever other dictator in history. Please reflect on your words.

(Sorry if the image is too big, I just didn't want to lessen the impact by putting it in spoiler. )
zeroexia is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
mecha

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:22.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
We use Silk.