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Old 2013-10-26, 17:37   Link #9761
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
A phase shift equipped suit like the Strike and Freedom still needed a beam shield to defend against ms grade beam rifles. And you expect me to believe ps armor would allow the Freedom to avoid damage from genesis?
No, I'm saying it wasn't hit by the GENESIS beam in the first place.
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Beyond that how does ps armor help defend against an internal explosion like what destroyed the Freedom in the Impulse fight? Because from my understanding, ps armor is applied to the outer armor to prevent bullets or missiles from damaging a unit. Therefore it would be useless in aiding the cockpit's armor in resisting damage from an internal explosion. Especially one derived from a nuclear power plant going critical.
First, let's just be clear on this: No "internal explosion derived from a nuclear power plant going critical" happened here.

Also, I don't know how the PS armor is applied, but the Freedom's cockpit was nearly intact. So whatever explosion may have happened as a result of the Impulse's sword was still not enough to break through the cockpit.

Then again, considering Athrun and Meyrin also survived without any phase shift armor, I suppose the cockpit is just highly protected from the rest of the torso of the mobile suit.
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
You do realize that beam hits a mirror formation and is reflected back at a much wider range towards the even larger mirror set around the barrel, right?
That's true, but the first mirror would reflect the beam in an outward manner toward the second mirror, with plenty of areas where the Freedom would be safe from the paths of the reflected beams.
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Old 2013-10-26, 18:17   Link #9762
The American Average
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so we're going to start talking about Kira surviving the Genesis beam.....again?

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Then again, considering Athrun and Meyrin also survived without any phase shift armor, I suppose the cockpit is just highly protected from the rest of the torso of the mobile suit.
no that was straight up plot armor there no doubts about that. Theres a scene where Cagalli in the Akatsuki shoots off the leg of a Gouf and then it blows up completely. no Cockpit surviving to speak of, yet Athrun's Gouf gets stabbed in the cockpit blows up and fall in the ocean and survives. How Athrun and Meyrin survived makes Kira's Strike gundam and the Genesis Freedom survival look like nothing in comparison.
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Old 2013-10-26, 18:33   Link #9763
S.Freedom
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Ok now I'm the one bringing logic into a gundam series.

But the Impulses sword stabs completely through the Freedoms torso region. So unless 1) the rector is incredibly small 2) in the Freedoms legs 3) on it's back behind the cockpit. The sword had to have gone through the freedom's reactor from one side to the other. Or at the very least damaged it's controlling functions.
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Old 2013-10-26, 18:42   Link #9764
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
Sorry monster I'm not buying it.

A phase shift equipped suit like the Strike and Freedom still needed a beam shield to defend against ms grade beam rifles. And you expect me to believe ps armor would allow the Freedom to avoid damage from genesis?
I think he was referencing the fact that when the Kusanagi and Eternal fired their positron/beam weapons at Genesis, it didn't do anything.

There it is shown given enough juice, PS armor can be made to withstand beam weaponry too. If they could make it feasible to do it on a MS, they would have armor similar to gundanium alloy......
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Old 2013-10-26, 19:11   Link #9765
monster
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Originally Posted by The American Average View Post
Theres a scene where Cagalli in the Akatsuki shoots off the leg of a Gouf and then it blows up completely.
It looks more like the right hip/lower abdomen to me. Also, let's be clear that there was an explosion with Athrun's Gouf too. So that doesn't mean anything.
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
But the Impulses sword stabs completely through the Freedoms torso region. So unless 1) the rector is incredibly small 2) in the Freedoms legs 3) on it's back behind the cockpit. The sword had to have gone through the freedom's reactor from one side to the other. Or at the very least damaged it's controlling functions.
I've always thought the reactor was behind the cockpit, but I don't really know.

If it was at the place where Shinn stabbed, Kira would've had to cut off the reactor before the stab or just in time.
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Old 2013-10-26, 19:13   Link #9766
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There's really no point in trying to explain how Athrun survived getting stabbed by Shinn considering that Shinn didn't miss the cockpit. His mecha fell in the ocean and all we see from the Archangel's side is a lone boat waiting to pick them up. I doubt they had the tools in place to get them out before the GOUF Ignited sank too far down and they died from the pressure and/or lack of air. You know with them not being calm or anything when they were taken out. They didn't even show them trying to swim out or anything and with how surprised Athrun is when he wakes up it's doubtful he even bothered to that.

It was simply plot armor which Athrun got as he rejoined Kira's side at that point when he decided to leave Durandal. Thus why the shows doesn't ever show "how" he survived with almost no injuries or how they managed to rescue him. It was done off screen as there was no way they could have showed it as the Archangel wasn't equipped with the means to snatch him up in secret before it was too late.
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Old 2013-10-26, 19:17   Link #9767
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There's plenty of room as to where the Freedom's nuclear reactor could've gone, but it's likely directly in the middle of the torso, somewhat under the cockpit, which is fairly high up on the torso (right under and in front of the neck).

Given that the Freedom is a flying nuclear reactor, there's likely some reinforcement around its cockpit.

GENESIS surviving the Kusanagi's Lohengrin shots is a plot hole in and of itself, Phase Shift or no. Nothing should've been able to protect it from such a weapon short of a positron deflector shield. It works on antimatter principles, it should've cut right through the armor or at least cause visible damage.
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Old 2013-10-26, 19:53   Link #9768
quagmire
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I would imagine Freedom's nuclear reactor is in the same location as the Justice's given they are based on a similar frame design. It's shown in episode 36/34(remaster) when Athrun and Nicol's dad were talking in front of it. It looks to be in the torso and accessed from the rear.
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Old 2013-10-26, 20:03   Link #9769
monster
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
There's really no point in trying to explain how Athrun survived getting stabbed by Shinn considering that Shinn didn't miss the cockpit.
Actually, he did. Shinn stabbed to the left (from the Gouf's perspective) of the black chest area, whereas the cockpit is underneath and at the center.
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GENESIS surviving the Kusanagi's Lohengrin shots is a plot hole in and of itself, Phase Shift or no. Nothing should've been able to protect it from such a weapon short of a positron deflector shield. It works on antimatter principles, it should've cut right through the armor or at least cause visible damage.
Don't antimatter and matter simply destroy each other? As long as there is enough power and layers to the armor, the phase shift armor simply has to replace any destroyed armor and absorb whatever kinetic energy is released from the resulting explosion.
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Old 2013-10-26, 20:08   Link #9770
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Oh boy are you arguing for plot armor in Seed/Destiny monster?
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Old 2013-10-26, 20:16   Link #9771
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Actually, he did. Shinn stabbed to the left (from the Gouf's perspective) of the black chest area, whereas the cockpit is underneath and at the center. Don't antimatter and matter simply destroy each other? As long as there is enough power and layers to the armor, the phase shift armor simply has to replace any destroyed armor and absorb whatever kinetic energy is released from the resulting explosion.
Replace armor? Replace armor with what? So far the only kind of armor regeneration we've seen comes from the Devil Gundam and its ilk. Phase Shift does not act as a secondary layer; it is the armor itself, once charged Phase Shift activates. Unless it has some nanomachine repair function like the Devil Gundam, any destroyed armor is going to stay destroyed.
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Old 2013-10-26, 20:24   Link #9772
The American Average
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
So far the only kind of armor regeneration we've seen comes from the Devil Gundam and its ilk
Turn A can regenerate its armor too

lol nanomachines
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Old 2013-10-26, 20:29   Link #9773
monster
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Replace armor? Replace armor with what? So far the only kind of armor regeneration we've seen comes from the Devil Gundam and its ilk. Phase Shift does not act as a secondary layer; it is the armor itself, once charged Phase Shift activates. Unless it has some nanomachine repair function like the Devil Gundam, any destroyed armor is going to stay destroyed.
Oh, I don't mean replace in that manner. I meant having multiple layers, such that the layer underneath "replaces" or takes over for the destroyed layer on top.
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Old 2013-10-26, 20:31   Link #9774
Destined_Fate
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And how, per say, did Shinn's sword stabbing through the entire mecha "miss" these layers?
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Old 2013-10-26, 20:33   Link #9775
monster
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
And how, per say, did Shinn's sword stabbing through the entire mecha "miss" these layers?
The Freedom wouldn't have enough power to power multiple layers of armor.

But then again, the Impulse's sword going through the shield and the Freedom itself is an amazing thing.
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Old 2013-10-26, 20:41   Link #9776
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by The American Average View Post
Turn A can regenerate its armor too

lol nanomachines
Turn A's nanomachines were derived from DG Cells, so it's technically of the Devil Gundam's ilk, is it not? :V

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Oh, I don't mean replace in that manner. I meant having multiple layers, such that the layer underneath "replaces" or takes over for the destroyed layer on top.
Which brings us back to the plothole--there was no armor loss on GENESIS's chassis. There wasn't even any burn marks or the like to signify damage. The positron cannons quite literally did NOTHING to GENESIS.
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Old 2013-10-26, 20:44   Link #9777
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Turn A's nanomachines were derived from DG Cells, so it's technically of the Devil Gundam's ilk, is it not? :V.
I know its just not everyday i get to talk about the Turn A gundam saw a chance and took it
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Old 2013-10-26, 21:06   Link #9778
monster
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Which brings us back to the plothole--there was no armor loss on GENESIS's chassis. There wasn't even any burn marks or the like to signify damage. The positron cannons quite literally did NOTHING to GENESIS.
Ah, you're right. The beams seem to be dispersed. So instead of just having more of it, it seems the phase shift armor is powered to such a degree as to also increase its protective capability.
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Old 2013-10-26, 21:26   Link #9779
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I think it was mentioned in side materials that Genesis's phase shift was in several heavy layers and powered by a nuclear reactor that was scaled to the size of Genesis, which basically made it invulnerable even to positron beam weapons.

This kind of protection was impossible on a mobile suit because the thick armor layers would be too heavy and weigh down the suit and they couldn't be powered by even a nuclear reactor if it was scaled down to fit in a MS. But this wasn't a problem in a giant fortress in space that just sat there all day and never had to move so they could make the armor as thick as they wanted and give it as big a power plant as they needed because weight wasn't an issue.
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Old 2013-10-26, 23:20   Link #9780
Skye629
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
And how, per say, did Shinn's sword stabbing through the entire mecha "miss" these layers?
Off topic but:

Nice new profile pic, MGS FTW




@Everyone else: Im amazed how you guys found more content to debate/argue over
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