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Old 2008-02-19, 08:48   Link #961
Zeta Gundam
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The Earth Alliance bery much still could be the enemy though if that were to happen again without no other good reason than "Grrrrrrrrrrr the EA really hates Coordinators!" I couldn't stomach to watch another season,because I will know to expect.

The world isn't short on the Azrael types,as there was an entire list of Logos and suspected Logos members,so they can go the genocidal maniac route for the 3rd time if they wanted.

There are also the Martians that had their entire way of life insulted with no evidence in Seed Destiny,and then later we find out that the Destiny Plan wasn't as bad as it was made out to be in the Anime.
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Old 2008-02-19, 08:57   Link #962
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What about them making Dullindal surviving by miracle ? And wearing a mask ? And building in secret a new Minerva with a SuperLegend suit piloted by Rey that survived too ?
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Old 2008-02-19, 09:02   Link #963
aeriolewinters
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post
Destiny was a disappointment, but, contrary to some opinions, I think that it didn't destroy the whole series. It sold well, fed the fans with more stuff about their favorite characters and universe.
sure... but because of fans, Destiny had to suffer. If there was a really weak part about CE, It's the over-integration of romance to the series. If people are demanding for character x to be paired with character y, then don't mind them.

Case In point: Special Editions (fan's cut)

The original TV series had Kira hallucinating that Lacus was Fllay, in the SE this scene was removed. Practically everything that pertains to their relationship are dumbed down or erased entirely. Heck this was the same thing with Stellar in Destiny... What the heck is Fukuda's problem with Houko Kuwashima?..


Seriously, this is why Destiny and the second part of SEED sucked. Rather than giving what the plot needed, the directors opt for what the FANS WANTED. Sure they're looking for another fanbase, but pleassssssssse... they were making a gundam series. The first half of SEED was okay from UC standpoint but as we all know, Kira got Freedom. And that means that his skill deteriorated to the point that Strike Rouge with it's VPS armor and Improved Aile Pack isn't as effective three years ago against Gundams with more capability and better pilots. I could argue that I could watch Kira get angry everyday just as long as he beats up the guy... But Freedom happened, His bad-assery was replaced with WTF Jeebus Criest...


Sure Kira cried alot when he had Strike, but I'd take a crying guy over a hypocrite cyborg. Kira throws his believability away for Pew Pew rainbowspam bot.

Kira being Pissed in SEED >>>> Cyborg Named Kira in GSD
Kira crying in SEED >>>> Cyborg Named Kira in GSD
Kira being reckless in SEED >>>> Cyborg named Kira in GSD


He was much more believable as a reckless teen who was plunged into war than a hypocrite cyborg who leisurely attacks a random faction. Heck, I'd rather have Kira get Strike-E in Destiny before S-Freedom.

To me, Destiny was the lowest point of the whole series. It was like watching the Lakers after Shaq was traded. That's how bad it was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeta Gundam View Post
The Earth Alliance bery much still could be the enemy though if that were to happen again without no other good reason than "Grrrrrrrrrrr the EA really hates Coordinators!" I couldn't stomach to watch another season,because I will know to expect.

The world isn't short on the Azrael types,as there was an entire list of Logos and suspected Logos members,so they can go the genocidal maniac route for the 3rd time if they wanted.

There are also the Martians that had their entire way of life insulted with no evidence in Seed Destiny,and then later we find out that the Destiny Plan wasn't as bad as it was made out to be in the Anime.
Or how about a showdown with the Centraudi, Lacus has Earth and Plant at her side(and God), what could go wrong?? lol
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Old 2008-02-19, 09:13   Link #964
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Does it really have to be another "save the world" plot-line? How about simply making it more action oriented, let Strike Freedom own like it's supposed to, and forget about trying to make a central antagonist altogether? It doesn't have to follow the same-styling or animation as the battles in Seed and Destiny.

As for plot, maybe something having to do with people wanting to move into space, rather than rebuild on Earth? Coordinators losing their identity as their population stagnants and Plant is flooded with Naturals who want to take advantage of the oppurtunities space presents?

Lacus has probably bit off more than can be chewed by becoming Chairwoman. Certainly one does not have to have personal animosity towards a group if they simply wish to preserve their kind. Hell, maybe Naturals who enter Plant would have to have Coordinator Children as an act of law. Keep the population up with the addition of freshblood.

She can't perform miracles and she knows it, despite what people might think.
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Old 2008-02-19, 09:20   Link #965
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She can't perform miracles and she knows it, despite what people might think.
I...do think so, that's why she's not active during the first part of Destiny. But seemingly, she's more mature now. I'd like to think that she MAY have improved on her diplomatic style. I'd like to see her hands get dirtied, just to assure us that she's a real politician.
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Old 2008-02-19, 09:30   Link #966
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Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
I...do think so, that's why she's not active during the first part of Destiny. But seemingly, she's more mature now. I'd like to think that she MAY have improved on her diplomatic style. I'd like to see her hands get dirtied, just to assure us that she's a real politician.
She'd probably be a liberal Chairwoman during what may be the last years of Plant serving as a Coordinator haven. Lacus isn't "Pro-Coordinator" but surely she has to admit the fact she has a people that are different from others in the world and that they've secured a National Identity for themselves.

Her father knew her generation would probably be the last one, even if Earth didn't destroy them. She may actually be faced with the decision of having to abandon Plant altogether and allowing her people to go extinct, because there's just no way to preserve it.
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Old 2008-02-19, 09:34   Link #967
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Her father knew her generation would probably be the last one, even if Earth didn't destroy them. She may actually be faced with the decision of having to abandon Plant altogether and allowing her people to go extinct, because there's just no way to preserve it.
actually, she could have Mendel reopened, and much of the Ultimate Coordinator research with actually sneaking some of Kira's DNA out.
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Old 2008-02-19, 09:34   Link #968
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maybe there should be a "prequal" series/special on GS besides there are still some things still not yet explain in the GS world.

besides unless GSM is could be a prequal?
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Old 2008-02-19, 09:36   Link #969
Sir Dearka
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Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
sure... but because of fans, Destiny had to suffer. If there was a really weak part about CE, It's the over-integration of romance to the series. If people are demanding for character x to be paired with character y, then don't mind them.

Case In point: Special Editions (fan's cut)

The original TV series had Kira hallucinating that Lacus was Fllay, in the SE this scene was removed. Practically everything that pertains to their relationship are dumbed down or erased entirely. Heck this was the same thing with Stellar in Destiny... What the heck is Fukuda's problem with Houko Kuwashima?..

Seriously, this is why Destiny and the second part of SEED sucked. Rather than giving what the plot needed, the directors opt for what the FANS WANTED. Sure they're looking for another fanbase, but pleassssssssse... they were making a gundam series. The first half of SEED was okay from UC standpoint but as we all know, Kira got Freedom. And that means that his skill deteriorated to the point that Strike Rouge with it's VPS armor and Improved Aile Pack isn't as effective three years ago against Gundams with more capability and better pilots. I could argue that I could watch Kira get angry everyday just as long as he beats up the guy... But Freedom happened, His bad-assery was replaced with WTF Jeebus Criest...

Sure Kira cried alot when he had Strike, but I'd take a crying guy over a hypocrite cyborg. Kira throws his believability away for Pew Pew rainbowspam bot.

Kira being Pissed in SEED >>>> Cyborg Named Kira in GSD
Kira crying in SEED >>>> Cyborg Named Kira in GSD
Kira being reckless in SEED >>>> Cyborg named Kira in GSD


He was much more believable as a reckless teen who was plunged into war than a hypocrite cyborg who leisurely attacks a random faction. Heck, I'd rather have Kira get Strike-E in Destiny before S-Freedom.

To me, Destiny was the lowest point of the whole series. It was like watching the Lakers after Shaq was traded. That's how bad it was.

Or how about a showdown with the Centraudi, Lacus has Earth and Plant at her side(and God), what could go wrong?? lol
I agree pretty much with everything you wrote there except the fact that the second part of SEED "sucked". Destiny was too fanbase-oriented, I admit. But not all the fans are into "fansy-pansy" cutesy-lovey solutions. Me, for instance. If they listened to such fans as me, Destiny would look much more different

What I liked about SEED was that I was really provided with the sense of menace. Something that was utterly gone in Destiny. Partially because of "overkill" Kira.
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Old 2008-02-19, 09:36   Link #970
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gelven, It's spelled "prequel" and no, it wouldn't work... It doesn't have anything else to offer, since we already know what will happen.
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Old 2008-02-19, 09:54   Link #971
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Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
actually, she could have Mendel reopened, and much of the Ultimate Coordinator research with actually sneaking some of Kira's DNA out.
Kira is the Ultimate Coordinator due to having all of the intended genetic traits he was meant to have from having survived the artificial womb, which killed something like 99% of it's subjects (his brothers and sisters). He's not going to solve anything with his DNA, since genetic modifications like his are precisely the problem Plant has with maintaining it's population.

Raising people in pods isn't the solution either, since it just costs too many lives to do so.
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Old 2008-02-19, 10:48   Link #972
Eidolon Sniper
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Destiny provided more menace than SEED ever did. It's just 2 years after the war, and everything is still in chaos, when tragedy strikes too soon and the war acts up again. At least in SEED there was a grace period before the ZAFT commandos actually infiltrated Heliopolis; in Destiny, it suddenly JUST happened.

Seriously though, there isn't even any kind of menace going on in SEED to warrant more attention than the usual. The villains and the heroes knew their places, so they couldn't actually randomly attack each other out of whim - they actually had a grasp of what the heck is still going on, unlike what happened in Destiny when everything became a free for all. If they attacked ZAFT, or EA for that matter, there actually is a reason behind it, and not just because they felt like doing it. The sense of menace was a given because they are in a war, and people could get killed in the war, coupled with the unthinkable hatred Naturals and Coordinators have for each other. The war wasn't even thoroughly fleshed out in my opinion, since when it all boils down to it, it is just a simple case of hatred, with this hatred being interpreted in so many various ways that it has become an obsession for them (Zala and Azrael particularly) to end the "war" using their own methods. The "war" happened because they tried to get back at each other employing their tools that would then force the other side to retaliate, and so give them good reason to go to war against them, because of it. And so SEED ends with a note that the TSA has ended war...but did they really end it? They just simply stopped the war that was dealt by means of MS and WMDs, but the war still continued because the hatred was not addressed, and gave birth to another war that was simply a repeat of the first. It's as if they are just simply there so that the old cast would be able to do battle against anything "remotely evil" going their way. >.>;;

Did the war change? Did the people that they sought to stop change? NO. It was still a war of Naturals against Coordinators, with the Destiny Plan as a lame excuse trying to cover up the same things that has actually brought the war again to the center stage - Naturals VS Coordinators - with the Naturals suddenly shafted to one side and being painted as the evil of all evils, and the Coordinators not as evil. What was the Destiny Plan all about? It was the "war" of superior genes against normal genes, in this case Coordinators and Naturals AGAIN.

With Lacus in PLANT and Cagalli in Orb, what would be left to change? Everything is now in complete control of Lacus and Cagalli who are powerful enough to do things that would safeguard against anything that would probably shake their holds on PLANT and Orb respectively. Where is the room reserved for Zala-ists, and all other people who supported the villains? Kira, Athrun and Shinn could pretty much do that without a moment's hesitation, and leave the Earth Sphere and PLANTs in perfect peace. Giving people the freedom to choose what they believe in is kinda restrictive if you have those 3 as guard dogs. You could pretty much do anything you want except going against the prescribed rule by Lacus and Cagalli.

So where's the menace again?
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Old 2008-02-19, 11:06   Link #973
Sir Dearka
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
So where's the menace again?
I don't know about you, but I just put myself in the place of Kira and felt all his confusion/fear/sadness/pain along the series. When people started dying there, like this little girl on the escaping pod, or when the four Gundams were again released to fulfill their mission of destruction, I felt suspense. Sympathy/pity etc. The series could have sprakled a whole lot of emotions in the viewer. If he was affected as much as I was.

In Destiny the only character I cared about - Shinn- was totally pushed back to the background. And the character I liked so much in the previous series became a super-invincible cyborg. So basically it is not difficult to see what made me write what I wrote.

Or I am not clear enough?
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Old 2008-02-19, 11:14   Link #974
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Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post
I don't know about you, but I just put myself in the place of Kira and felt all his confusion/fear/sadness/pain along the series. When people started dying there, like this little girl on the escaping pod, or when the four Gundams were again released to fulfill their mission of destruction, I felt suspense. Sympathy/pity etc. The series could have sprakled a whole lot of emotions in the viewer. If he was affected as much as I was.

In Destiny the only character I cared about - Shinn- was totally pushed back to the background. And the character I liked so much in the previous series became a super-invincible cyborg. So basically it is not difficult to see what made me write what I wrote.

Or I am not clear enough?
You should really stop trying to sweep Destiny under the rug. Especially since you won't get sympathy from doing so.
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Old 2008-02-19, 11:17   Link #975
Sir Dearka
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You should really stop trying to sweep Destiny under the rug. Especially since you won't get sympathy from doing so.
I really don't see myself "sweeping Destiny under the rug". It;s not like I try to erase it from the public mind. The contrary. I point: "Here it is. And I admit it was disappointing". So I really don;t see why u wrote what u wrote.
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Old 2008-02-19, 11:31   Link #976
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Spoiler:


I also put myself in Kira's shoes, as much as Shinn's, and I understand how really hard it is for them to have peaceful lives suddenly disrupted by war and its many accompanying horrors. But this is war, it's not like you could actually put everything on pause while the war goes on outside and you still live peacefully wherever you are. Eventually the war would catch up to you and could enter your life in zillions of ways possible. I didn't expect Yzak would be shooting down that shuttle, but for some reason I am not surprised by it. Heck, this is war, and a lot of crazy stuff could probably happen, I am well aware of that fact. I just didn't expect it though. It affected me a lot too, because it is rare to have anime actually tackling such matters meant for young people to understand the effects of war on ordinary young people like them.

Anyway, this is a Gundam story, so we can expect a lot of mayhem, destruction, chaos and war to happen. It wouldn't make sense if they created a Gundam show with no war in it that would make the Gundam flex its muscles and sell lots of merchandise for the franchise. but whatever urgency that SEED did have was suddenly lost by the time the plot holes started pouring in. Now, I cannot even bring myself to rewatch Destiny without LOLing at the side for reasons I cannot understand. X_____X and this is a big letdown for me, I tell you, I was really expecting Destiny to be better than what SEED was, but it became what it is, so.... SEED's ending just became as forced as what Destiny's ending came to be, with Azrael and his killing mania of all Coordinators in the whole wide universe, down to Zala's rage at the Naturals for killing his innocent wife. It's not that I belittle their reasons or anything, but it's because their reasons were just added later (with Azrael that is) that left the audience and think them otherwise when they really have a "perfect" reason of being and doing so. It's just as if they are there so that the story would have an evil side to it, which I think I already stated in my previous post. So take away Azrael and Zala, what kind of story would SEED have? Or what kind of menace?
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Old 2008-02-19, 11:38   Link #977
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So take away Azrael and Zala, what kind of story would SEED have? Or what kind of menace?
Rau Le Creuset? Well, why would I take them away, anyway? They were villains and they were SUPPOSED to bring menace to the world. The ending of SEED was just fine and moving to me as the rest of the show. I liked its optimism and breathed a sigh of relief. I think your issue is that Gundam SEED's mood and form did not appeal to you at all. That's fine. But don't ask me "where's menace" if you totally don't feel the same way as me. Well, some people are scared of spiders, others don't...

And yeah, I liked Zeta with its dark mood and dramatic "Kamille's mother ;__;". Next to SEED it is my favorite Gundam series. Gundam 00 is just catching up.
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Old 2008-02-19, 11:55   Link #978
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Rau still needed Zala for his Providence Gundam, and besides, if he wouldn't be able to mask his true intentions until everything unravels, what's the point of keeping Rau as the badass villain? He owes just that from using everyone else, so, if Rau didn't use anyone else, his reason to become a cool villain will be SERIOUSLY affected.

I never really did think Zala of a villain, just an overzealous man bent on revenge on the Naturals for killing his wife. Azrael too; he had his own reasons why he acted that way towards Coordinators, and so he was just as revenge obsessed as Zala was. As for the optimism carried on supposedly by how TSA ended the war, it didn't work out that way, that is why there was a Destiny. It's as if the Naturals didn't learn any better and were also making experiments in secret, stealing Gundams on the side, and making war on the Coordinators AGAIN because the existence of such powerful weapons told them to. Same goes with the Coordinators. So nothing really changed from the last war, everything - the hatred, mistrust of Naturals and Coordinators, plus the race to become the best in the arms race, coupled with propaganda/mud slinging at the side - was just the same as it was.

I am asking you what menace, where's menace, because you said that in SEED there was a menace. And I think I already explained myself by saying that menace is a given because of the war but has disappeared because of the old cast (yes, even in SEED that was resolved in Destiny), and are intent on keeping it that way, by the way things turned out in the last SE IV.
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Old 2008-02-19, 12:22   Link #979
Sir Dearka
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I am asking you what menace, where's menace, because you said that in SEED there was a menace. And I think I already explained myself by saying that menace is a given because of the war but has disappeared because of the old cast (yes, even in SEED that was resolved in Destiny), and are intent on keeping it that way, by the way things turned out in the last SE IV.
I am a bit confused about the reason why you still asked a question about such an obvious thing. And the way you put it above is a bit unclear to me. So what, you understand why I felt this sense of menace in the first series but didn't (to such extent) feel it in the second, or not? I, personally, thought that it is just a matter of one's emotions. This "sense of menace" derived from the uncertainty about the fate of all those nice kids that I learned to like. I cared for Kira's and co's lives for the whole SEED show. But then stopped caring about them that much seeing how it was all solved in the second series. The character with the greatest potential was Shinn, but then they replaced him again with Kira and co. who stuck in one place in possible character development - the worst choice for main protagonist...

As for the "outcome", the optimism turned out to be just plain naive. But I think we all know that without the broken hope for eternal peace there'd be no second series Maybe it'd be better if there wasn't the one like Destiny and they made another seqwuel, but well... the milk is spilt, so the only hope for CE fans lies in the better third series/OAV/movie.

I won't start all this "villain/not villain" discussion all over again we had already about another SEED universe character - Dullindal. Basically, yeah... if one perceives it just as a torturer that likes to bathe in blood of the innocents, but nothing short of it, then yeah... But to me Azrael's egoism/hatred that came from intollerance were enough for me to classify him as a villain. And all this slaughter... man... As for Zala, yeah, he was obsessed with revenge. But he wanted to take out the whole planet in retaliation for one life. That majkes him an ignorant egoist at worst or a dangerous lunatic at best. Both kinds of people I stil consider to be "villanous types". That's just my two cents. If u don't want to call Patrick Zala or Azrael villains, I won't try to convince you otherwise. Just showed how I look at it.
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Old 2008-02-19, 12:24   Link #980
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I agree pretty much with everything you wrote there except the fact that the second part of SEED "sucked". Destiny was too fanbase-oriented, I admit. But not all the fans are into "fansy-pansy" cutesy-lovey solutions. Me, for instance. If they listened to such fans as me, Destiny would look much more different
Who's to say your version of Destiny would have been any better?
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