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Old 2008-02-24, 14:54   Link #1061
Dean_the_Young
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You're describing what makes something specificly unique, not separate from the mold. Connections between series and stories aren't judged by what makes them unique; they are judged by what is similar. And Seed is not only similar in plot, but also in characters (as I detailed earlier).
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Old 2008-02-24, 15:04   Link #1062
Sir Dearka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Connections between series and stories aren't judged by what makes them unique; they are judged by what is similar.
I think you are wrong here, as one major difference could really be a significant counterbalance to many similarities in the process of evaluation. Just my way of seeing things.

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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
And Seed is not only similar in plot, but also in characters (as I detailed earlier).
Yup, these things I'd count into "homage and plot" aspects. They are the traits that ultimately make me classify SEED as a part of the Gundam multiiverse (and come on, we all can see the title ). But still, IMHO, its differences make it quite unique among all the shows that were produced in the franchise so far. But if those "differences" like mood and designs and drama convention are just superficial to you and not significant enough to understand my point then a'right. I'd just say then that we have totally different senses of what makes the show different and what doesn't.

I, for instance, think that it is this "uniqueness" that made some people hate SEED and the other love it. Period.
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Old 2008-02-24, 15:18   Link #1063
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Well, when you get into college literature, you'll understand what I'm talking about when I say I'm judging by literary conventions. Until then, ...
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Old 2008-02-24, 15:57   Link #1064
Sir Dearka
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Well, when you get into college literature, you'll understand what I'm talking about when I say I'm judging by literary conventions. Until then, ...
Everybody judges by the way they seem fit. To me, your way of hopping on things by "literary conventions" is just not enough. I'm 26 and got two degrees so I doubt I'll ever understand your point if you won't explain it to me
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Old 2008-02-24, 23:07   Link #1065
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Sir Dearka
But still u got my point, probably. Don't tell me Palpatine would be ever considered THE protagonist. Even the secondary one like:
The sole reason why Palpatine isn't considered the protagonist is because Anakin fits the role better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young
Not really. I know I pointed this out to you earlier, but the Seed verse is closer to the "core" Gundam than just about any other series. Different characters and superficial ideologies can make it distinct, but it doesn't make it original. The basic plot of the Seed Verse comes straight from the Gundam series, with the main alterations being rather minor overall.
This is true, but only to a degree. The structure of Seed, its setting, and its basic premise is very much reminiscent of Mobile Suit Gundam, but the plot diverges quite a bit after the first coul. And of course, by Destiny, almost everything is different from any of the UC shows. Given the geopolitical situation at the end of Destiny, this difference will only be greater for any future Cosmic Era works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young
You're describing what makes something specificly unique, not separate from the mold. Connections between series and stories aren't judged by what makes them unique; they are judged by what is similar. And Seed is not only similar in plot, but also in characters (as I detailed earlier).
Sure, Seed is similar to Mobile Suit Gundam in terms of plot and themes and setting, but there are only about 2 and a half characters that are similar unless we're talking about extremely generalized similarities.
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Old 2008-02-25, 14:04   Link #1066
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The sole reason why Palpatine isn't considered the protagonist is because Anakin fits the role better.
And I think that it was basically my point. That Palpatine did not fit the role as much as other characters like Anakin, Obi Wan or Luke. Just like Dullindal did not fit the role like Kira, Athrun or Shinn.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
This is true, but only to a degree. The structure of Seed, its setting, and its basic premise is very much reminiscent of Mobile Suit Gundam, but the plot diverges quite a bit after the first coul. And of course, by Destiny, almost everything is different from any of the UC shows. Given the geopolitical situation at the end of Destiny, this difference will only be greater for any future Cosmic Era works.
I supppose we agree 100% here. As well as about the characters. They totally differ from MSG.
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Old 2008-02-26, 21:15   Link #1067
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geez mentioning star wars in GS series besides fukada is a star wars so maybe he was using some of star wars stuff in GS series.

besides unless his wife also a star wars fan?

so i don't care whatever ideas they used in GS it has shown that the GS is a the series that innovate an era of anime.
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Old 2008-02-26, 21:22   Link #1068
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DKLAC: You can't put a sentence that confirms Fukuda incorporated Star Wars and then say it's innovative. Besides, the analogies between SEED and Star Wars aren't that outstanding to say that they are.
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Old 2008-02-26, 22:50   Link #1069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post
Everybody judges by the way they seem fit. To me, your way of hopping on things by "literary conventions" is just not enough. I'm 26 and got two degrees so I doubt I'll ever understand your point if you won't explain it to me
So I guess that all Gundam series are unique in one way or the other, and not just SEED, since you seem to be leaning towards a more "liberal" description by defining what Gundam is like. It's not that SEED and Destiny have their own unique band of anti CE-ers, other shows have them too, because mostly of the fact that some fans feel that those Gundam shows aren't Gundam-y enough as well. So saying the Destiny and SEED are different from other shows just because of the fact that they are unique would not apply here.

Soap opera teen angst characterization? I think Wing would like to have a word with you. well, not entirely, but I felt that some of the characters could've done more than with just being pretty boys using Gundams, and to think Wing introduced me into the Gundam thing, so...>.>;; Anyway, it's not just SEED and Destiny that suffers the same stigma, others have their own shares of stigma as well.

@ 4Tran

Um, how exactly will the political climate in Destiny change after what happened in SE IV? And how could it be greater? the only chance they had left before sealing it with the "flawless victory" was when Shinn happened, but even so, he was pushed so far back into the background that even Dullindal and the rest of the new cast didn't matter at all because of the old cast. Fukuda pretty much finished CE with what has happened in SE IV, because trying to make the old cast unlikeable in a new series or movie would have the CE explode right in Fukuda and Morosawa's faces. You seem to be always forgetting what happened in SE IV... all political threats have been removed, Lacus has made Kira a white coat, Athrun is now in Orb with Cagalli leading Orb Union again, and Shinn, Lunamaria and Meyrin are also pretty much part of the same Clyne crew, so...3.3;; add Terminal and Factory into the mix...even Martians with their Destiny Plan wouldn't stand a chance. even the Astray cast seems to be leaning towards the Clyne Faction, or what I know of anyway, so correct me if I'm wrong, so there goes Destiny's political climate after the end of Destiny.
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Old 2008-02-27, 04:15   Link #1070
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
So I guess that all Gundam series are unique in one way or the other, and not just SEED, since you seem to be leaning towards a more "liberal" description by defining what Gundam is like. It's not that SEED and Destiny have their own unique band of anti CE-ers, other shows have them too, because mostly of the fact that some fans feel that those Gundam shows aren't Gundam-y enough as well. So saying the Destiny and SEED are different from other shows just because of the fact that they are unique would not apply here.
I'd not agreee that it doesn't. It does to some extent. Yup, pretty much every Gundam show is unique, I think. But to me SEED's uniqueness is quite strong in the "mood" and chara "design" aspects. Major ones. Even Wing did not seem so utterly different from the previous Gundam shows in those terms. But that's my point of view. Based on my subjective evaluations and observation of other fans' opinions.

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Soap opera teen angst characterization? I think Wing would like to have a word with you. well, not entirely, but I felt that some of the characters could've done more than with just being pretty boys using Gundams, and to think Wing introduced me into the Gundam thing, so...>.>;; Anyway, it's not just SEED and Destiny that suffers the same stigma, others have their own shares of stigma as well.
Well, there's more to SEED than just boysband convention, ain't it? Of course, some people may just throw both series into one bag, but that's would be just too much of an oversimplication, I think.
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Old 2008-02-27, 10:15   Link #1071
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As far as SEED is concerned, most of the character designs it has is indeed different from older shows because it sports a look that appeals to a younger generation of fans. The mech designs are, as well - they are certainly geared towards fans who love flashier Gundams and who could take down armies in a single shot or something. of course, older Gundam series have their own super weapons that defy all sense of logic, but even if they had, they quite tied it in with the current pacing of where their technology was headed, whereas in the CE, everything just becomes what it is in a span of...um...2 years. >.>;;

As for the mood, it couldn't really be said that one mood fits others, or whatever, but SEED and Destiny have their own similar moods to other Gundam series because of the war (there should always be a war I guess ) and the struggle between the Earthians and the colonists living in space. It may be termed differently (Naturals VS Coordinators) but the premise remains the same. Trying to view war from a civilian standpoint has always been the same as Kira and Shinn - there's Amuro, Kamille, and Judau, all of whom were also drawn into war not by choice but by the circumstances that forced them to make the choice instead. They went through their story as emos, forced to change spectacularly because of something that has happened to them and they were shocked to reality and so have to adapt to them, and were given special instances wherein they piloted the series' titular mechs and were given rivals, and loved ones. They managed to deepen their own characterizations throughout the story, or probably did not in the case of some fans who don't think that they did, and obtained a fanbase throughout the years not because of how they were drawn but because of the characters that they represented. Most Gundam series in the latter years always look for Amuro-ish characters and Char-ish characters, to which some protagonists and antagonists fit to a degree, as well as creating memorable characters on the side, and enriching the Gundam experience as well because of new takes on the Gundams, new grunt suits, or whatever the total mech otaku takes a fancy to.

Whatever the case, the true Gundam experience always seem to center on how well it compares to the UC, mostly because of the fact that the older series were the prototypes on which most latter Gundam series based themselves on, with a notable few exceptions to this rule. Serving as yardsticks, stating something as either Gundam-y or not Gundam-y could point to this, or are always based on the interpretation of some fans, or in the case of the recently added additions to the fandom, relate everything that they see or watch in after seeing SEED and Destiny to them, so there are the heated CE AD debates.

Saying the SEED or Destiny as unique doesn't really cut it from the rest of the Gundam series out there. What makes them unique is also present to some effect in the other Gundam shows, so it also negates that. The war on ideals was played to great effect in Wing, so saying that the war of ideals being fought in the CE would be also very much Wing 2.0. We have the Gundam staples of the masked man, the rival, the generic war between Earth and the colonies, the Gundams of course, and the grunt suits (in Destiny anyway). The only minor things SEED could differ from other Gundam shows is that the titular Gundam isn't called SEED, and because by the time it reached Destiny, almost everyone could have a Gundam at their disposal. SEED could also be called as unique because you have no idea who the heroes and the villains are, but not because of the writer's superiority in creating subtleties with the characters in order to create that effect. >.>;;
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Old 2008-02-27, 10:18   Link #1072
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Eidolon Sniper, if you're going to reply to a post typed a week ago, then you should at least include the bit that you're replying to.
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Old 2008-02-27, 11:06   Link #1073
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But of course, Eidolon Sniper. I have mentioned a couple of times that I do not perceive SEED as completely "cut off" of the whole franchise. Just that its uniqueness is, well, so unique

By talking about its mood, I did not mean the theme of war, but rather this sometimes warm-sometimes-dramatic atmosphere of a teenage drama

To me, SEED/Destiny stand out from the rest of the Gundams also because of the traits you just mentioned in your post. It was made to appeal for the younger generations, but ended up having also older fans like me
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Old 2008-02-27, 23:07   Link #1074
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OFF TOPIC:

Um 4Tran, I was replying specifically to the last post Sir Dearka posted before my post, so...>.>;; if it was a post from pages ago of course i will post them, you know i always do...

@ Sir Dearka



You were arguing with Dean_the_Young about the uniqueness of Gundam SEED weren't you? Saying something unique is saying something that is totally different from the normal Gundam show. Gundam shows aren't exactly all copy pasta designs of one another, but they are similar because they show aspects of Gundam, which I already mentioned. The proper word for SEED and the other Gundam shows is that they are similar to each other, not unique. I am pretty sure the older Gundam series tackled emo in so many differnet levels as well, and the human drama surrounding war, and its effects on the innocent civilians, and the military.
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Old 2008-02-28, 01:50   Link #1075
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I was referring to what this bit:
Quote:
@ 4Tran

Um, how exactly will the political climate in Destiny change after what happened in SE IV?
was written in response to.
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Old 2008-02-28, 01:53   Link #1076
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I was replying to your bit about your answering post to Dean_the_Young, regarding your arguments about SEED and its supposed difference from any UC show...and you talked about the geopolitical situation of Destiny at the end. >.>;;
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Old 2008-02-28, 02:11   Link #1077
Sir Dearka
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@ Sir Dearka



You were arguing with Dean_the_Young about the uniqueness of Gundam SEED weren't you? Saying something unique is saying something that is totally different from the normal Gundam show. Gundam shows aren't exactly all copy pasta designs of one another, but they are similar because they show aspects of Gundam, which I already mentioned. The proper word for SEED and the other Gundam shows is that they are similar to each other, not unique. I am pretty sure the older Gundam series tackled emo in so many differnet levels as well, and the human drama surrounding war, and its effects on the innocent civilians, and the military.
The fact that SEED is unique among G-franchise, doesn't becessary mean that it is not a Gundam show. It shares all the things: It is about war and robots, human drama (though this, as you wrotem could be presented on different levels in different ways). I haven't argued with anyone. Just clarified my thoughts which are easily understood as another CE fan trying to elevate his favorite series. In fact yes, I do elevate it, but putting personal taste aside, I was trying to say that SEED is actually VERY unlike any other Gundam show that was made so far. Of course that all kinds of G-series within the multiverse differ from each other. But SEED has this something which makes it stand out significantly even among this supposed variety.
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Old 2008-02-28, 09:38   Link #1078
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The fact that SEED is unique among G-franchise, doesn't becessary mean that it is not a Gundam show. It shares all the things: It is about war and robots, human drama (though this, as you wrotem could be presented on different levels in different ways). I haven't argued with anyone. Just clarified my thoughts which are easily understood as another CE fan trying to elevate his favorite series. In fact yes, I do elevate it, but putting personal taste aside, I was trying to say that SEED is actually VERY unlike any other Gundam show that was made so far. Of course that all kinds of G-series within the multiverse differ from each other. But SEED has this something which makes it stand out significantly even among this supposed variety.

True... The great divide of fans is a testimony to that... Seed and Destiny is either you love it or hate it.... Most other gundum shows dont have this great divide in fans. Closest one i can think of is G-gundam but even then most just dislikes it, not hate it..

But Seed and Destiny is still a series in a gundum-verse and is unique... but im not sure if its the uniquness that makes it different in a good or bad way. The anti-CE fans do give their opinions quite strong and loudest compared to all the other gundum shows out there. Ultimatly its up to each individual viewer to decide on, and have their reasons.
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Old 2008-02-28, 10:03   Link #1079
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
I was replying to your bit about your answering post to Dean_the_Young, regarding your arguments about SEED and its supposed difference from any UC show...and you talked about the geopolitical situation of Destiny at the end. >.>;;
In that case, I have no idea how "Um, how exactly will the political climate in Destiny change after what happened in SE IV?" is supposed to address what I wrote.

I wasn't writing about how the political climate will change after the end of Destiny - my actual quote was "And of course, by Destiny, almost everything is different from any of the UC shows. Given the geopolitical situation at the end of Destiny, this difference will only be greater for any future Cosmic Era works."
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Old 2008-02-28, 15:25   Link #1080
Sir Dearka
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True... The great divide of fans is a testimony to that... Seed and Destiny is either you love it or hate it.... Most other gundum shows dont have this great divide in fans. Closest one i can think of is G-gundam but even then most just dislikes it, not hate it..

But Seed and Destiny is still a series in a gundum-verse and is unique... but im not sure if its the uniquness that makes it different in a good or bad way. The anti-CE fans do give their opinions quite strong and loudest compared to all the other gundum shows out there. Ultimatly its up to each individual viewer to decide on, and have their reasons.
Exactly. I just don't understand this whole fuss... Why so much hate. What for? Some people really should just give up and let others live with their tastes and preferences. The main problem here is a gap in mentality, I suppose. The majority of CE fans are just kids who tend to irritate their fellow-G-fans with their enthusiastic blabber about SEED/Destiny. Those irritated anti-CE people consider themselves to be more "grown up" and "mature" in their preferences and just could not bare yet another "immature child" yappping its praising cliches or some runt throwing his mindless: "Kira ownz all!". They retaliate to such, I admit, somehow childish and naive approach, with anger and so the whole cycle of hatred starts.

My advice to the more "mature" Gundam fans is... be TRULY mature, guys. And truly mature person just forgives or ignores those whom they consider to be childish (like I do it with D-KLAC). When a person shows that he is outright rude, we should blame the man, not the series he likes.

And hey... SEED ownz all and Kira ownz all... but it's just me

Here's something to lighten up the mood and milden the divides:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUBMTiIk-qc


Last edited by Sir Dearka; 2008-02-28 at 15:42.
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