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Old 2014-02-22, 10:03   Link #11041
Washu-Chan
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Originally Posted by weirdguy View Post
I still don't understand why people complain about Destiny's animation when, for example, Wing have way for reused animation. Heck, even UC uses it and each series have less than Wing
1. Seed was the first Gundam show to use digital animation and coloring.

2. There's a difference between stock footage (which earlier Gundam shows had, except Turn A) and stock animation (Seed and GSD). Examples include the rapid typing sequences (Kira/Stella), and how Akatsuki's animations were derived from (as my memory recalls) Providence, Justice/IJustice, Freedom, and others.

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Old 2014-02-22, 10:11   Link #11042
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
My biggest issue was the constant stockfootage-battles, are they still there or did they actually reanimate new scenes for them?
I only watch some Remastered episodes randomly and don’t really paid that much attention, but from what I get, it’s a mixed between old stock footage (but remastered into HD) and some new animation which also used repeatedly. So yeah, as far as I know, the stock footage is still there in full force. The difference being: some look new, but those new animation still being repeated again and again.

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Originally Posted by weirdguy View Post
I still don't understand why people complain about Destiny's animation when, for example, Wing have way for reused animation. Heck, even UC uses it and each series have less than Wing
It's only natural that people complain from watching the same footage again & again. It's okay if the reason makes sense. For example: you can reused the footage of MS launching from the ship since that sequence is naturally similar from one another. But when it's fighting moves/animation that got repeated again and again and again, it will highlight the lack of animation-variation and boredom will strike the audience and some complains will be inevitable.

As for Gundam Wing: What? Don’t you know that many Gundam fans (yes, even those who grew up watching Wing) also vocally complained about Wing’s notorious stock footage? It’s a common knowledge that we don’t even have to mention it anymore .

And if you actually watched most of the UC series, they have minimal stock footage/animation. For example, in Zeta, ZZ, & Victory, they mostly use it for MS transformation and MS launching from ships which still makes sense. Yes, some fighting moves got repeated but nowhere near the craziness that is Wing, SEED, & Destiny.
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Old 2014-02-22, 13:01   Link #11043
monster
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
My biggest issue was the constant stockfootage-battles, are they still there or did they actually reanimate new scenes for them?
I doubt they see stock footage as something that needs to be removed. It's actually like a signature.

Beside, if they try to reanimate new scenes to replace stock footage, it may have to be for the majority of the battles, which would be more work/budget required than what a remaster usually means.

Just like with SEED HD Remaster, the number of stock footage isn't changed one way or the other.
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Old 2014-02-22, 13:01   Link #11044
weirdguy
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If it is common knowledge for Wing and people have stopped mentioning it, shouldn't it be common knowledge for Destiny as well and that it doesn't need to be said anymore? I can't think up of the right word, but this seem hypocritical or that what I said contradicts the "common knowledge" you mentioned.
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Old 2014-02-22, 15:53   Link #11045
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
And if you actually watched most of the UC series, they have minimal stock footage/animation. For example, in Zeta, ZZ, & Victory, they mostly use it for MS transformation and MS launching from ships which still makes sense. Yes, some fighting moves got repeated but nowhere near the craziness that is Wing, SEED, & Destiny.
The thing is with stuff from the 80s, the animation was...not exactly atrocious, but it wasn't very detailed, proportions were often warped, and picture quality tended to be low. On the flip side, the sense of action conveyed by what was actually going on was top notch. It may have looked like crap, but in terms of understanding and appreciating what was happening, it was really quite good. Great choreography, good action sequences, and it was almost always fresh.
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Old 2014-02-22, 20:34   Link #11046
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Originally Posted by weirdguy View Post
If it is common knowledge for Wing and people have stopped mentioning it, shouldn't it be common knowledge for Destiny as well and that it doesn't need to be said anymore?
Umm...beacuse this is a SEED thread, not a Wing thread? and the fact that we’re watching the now-airing SEED/Destiny Remaster, and not Wing Remaster? So it’s natural that the complains we had with SEED/Destiny surfaced again. Also, it seems people are more interested in SEED/Destiny than the old Wing so that’s probably why.

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Originally Posted by weirdguy View Post
I can't think up of the right word, but this seem hypocritical or that what I said contradicts the "common knowledge" you mentioned.
You can ask any Gundam-fan who have experienced Wing about the stock footage and I bet most (if not all) of them will answer along the lines of “Yeah, it’s pretty bad. Many action sequences are repeated again and again and again.....

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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
The thing is with stuff from the 80s, the animation was...not exactly atrocious, but it wasn't very detailed, proportions were often warped, and picture quality tended to be low. On the flip side, the sense of action conveyed by what was actually going on was top notch. It may have looked like crap, but in terms of understanding and appreciating what was happening, it was really quite good. Great choreography, good action sequences, and it was almost always fresh.
If you watched the Blu-ray release of Zeta & ZZ, you’ll be surprised at how sharp the picture is and how many details it has. Color-wise, it may not be as eye-candy as SEED/Destiny or 00, but it certainly blew SEED/Destiny Remaster Blu-ray out of the water in terms of details and sharpness. So, no, I don't think those old shows look like crap, especially if you compare them with the likes of SEED/Destiny/Stargazer in equal High-Definition. And the complain you said regarding proportion actually exists in almost every series (even the newer 00).
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Old 2014-02-23, 01:54   Link #11047
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To an extent. Though Durandal also held off on moving against Logos and let them run rampant so he would look better. He knew about Destroy long before it was deployed in Berlin but sat on that info because he wanted Djbril to deploy it so he'd have his big evil act that he could pin on them have his "hero" Shinn destroy it (and even that he had to edit in because Kira did that) and start the witch hunt. Plus every country EA trashed and Zaft liberated is another country that will be too reliant on Zaft support to say no to the Destiny Plan.
I think he sent an entire mobile suit unit to intercept the Destroy, in STARGAZER. His Plan-A was probably trying to capture the unit and then show it to the world.

Last edited by Yesman; 2014-02-23 at 02:04.
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Old 2014-02-23, 06:06   Link #11048
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Originally Posted by Washu-Chan View Post
1. Seed was the first Gundam show to use digital animation and coloring.

2. There's a difference between stock footage (which earlier Gundam shows had, except Turn A) and stock animation (Seed and GSD). Examples include the rapid typing sequences (Kira/Stella), and how Akatsuki's animations were derived from (as my memory recalls) Providence, Justice/IJustice, Freedom, and others.
Indeed. if there is barely any new animation in the battle scenes it's not worth viewing in my opinion. Destiny is pretty much SEED with updated colors and new mobile suits pasted onto old movesets.

it's like playing Tekken and have them release Tekken v2 with new characters just pasted onto old character movesets, nothing new added except a few bits here and there.

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Originally Posted by weirdguy View Post
SEED and Destiny's main focus isn't the battles. It's more of the characters and the ideals/messages being said and conveyed to the viewers. I still don't understand why people complain about Destiny's animation when, for example, Wing have way for reused animation. Heck, even UC uses it and each series have less than Wing
For a mecha-fan like me, the battles does portray a big role in if i like a series or not, SPECIALLY when the plot turns akward after episode 12.

a prime example would be Break Blade/Broken blades Ghirge episode where theyt change the plot to Anime-Original but still manage to keep your attention with superb animation and choreography throughout the battle.

Also, Wing is horrible when it comes to stock animation, but this is a Seed thread, so there is no point about bringing that up here.

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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
The thing is with stuff from the 80s, the animation was...not exactly atrocious, but it wasn't very detailed, proportions were often warped, and picture quality tended to be low. On the flip side, the sense of action conveyed by what was actually going on was top notch. It may have looked like crap, but in terms of understanding and appreciating what was happening, it was really quite good. Great choreography, good action sequences, and it was almost always fresh.
Honestly, Victory doesnt have superb animation(And also has some stock footage, think about the forests getting bombed) but has the most creative battle choreography in Gundam up until today i'd say, Also. Motorcycles.
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Old 2014-02-23, 06:37   Link #11049
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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
The thing is with stuff from the 80s, the animation was...not exactly atrocious, but it wasn't very detailed, proportions were often warped, and picture quality tended to be low. On the flip side, the sense of action conveyed by what was actually going on was top notch. It may have looked like crap, but in terms of understanding and appreciating what was happening, it was really quite good. Great choreography, good action sequences, and it was almost always fresh.
I don't think I agree with that... The problem I think was budget... Many of the action sequences and specific action frames in particular in Z and ZZ were simple and didn't convey the same level of dynamism that later shows had... Like the Seed shows, there were many sequences of static frame being used as well as plenty of fights involving two sides shooting at each other (which seem to be popular because they are cheaply produced). Stock footage was also pretty common, just not as obvious as Seed Destiny's (since those sequences tend not to be as elaborate or lengthy or "posey"). And I think a lot of modern animation techniques simply weren't as well developed back.

I think Victory was indeed the best animated of the original UC TV shows (though its coloring was extremely cheap), and after that X and Turn A were also well animated (excluding the OVAs and movies of course since that's a whole separate discussion). All of those pale in comparison to the work that Sunrise has been churning out on TV shows after Destiny though.
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Old 2014-02-23, 07:34   Link #11050
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Originally Posted by brightman View Post
I don't think I agree with that... The problem I think was budget... Many of the action sequences and specific action frames in particular in Z and ZZ were simple and didn't convey the same level of dynamism that later shows had... Like the Seed shows, there were many sequences of static frame being used as well as plenty of fights involving two sides shooting at each other (which seem to be popular because they are cheaply produced). Stock footage was also pretty common, just not as obvious as Seed Destiny's (since those sequences tend not to be as elaborate or lengthy or "posey"). And I think a lot of modern animation techniques simply weren't as well developed back.

I think Victory was indeed the best animated of the original UC TV shows (though its coloring was extremely cheap), and after that X and Turn A were also well animated (excluding the OVAs and movies of course since that's a whole separate discussion). All of those pale in comparison to the work that Sunrise has been churning out on TV shows after Destiny though.
True, but then again, what is the meaning of good footages without the trademark spirit? Call me weird, but I could see a different aura between SEED and UC fighting.
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Old 2014-02-23, 08:25   Link #11051
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True, but then again, what is the meaning of good footages without the trademark spirit? Call me weird, but I could see a different aura between SEED and UC fighting.
I don't disagree with that (though I don't care much for things like "spirit" and "aura" when animation or choreography can be judged using more technical terms).

One thing that hasn't been brought up I guess is that UC focused on more smaller scale battles when action sequences focus on a few suits going at it with each other rather than Seed Destiny's battles which have one or two suits taking down huge armies every episode. It makes each battle feel unique and special instead of generic which sort of became the hallmark of the Seed franchise.
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Old 2014-02-23, 09:24   Link #11052
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@Znozzy
Well, I'm pretty lazy just to go and quote what you said. The reason why I brought Wing up is because I barely see people even mention about its animation. All I see, which I have been seeing the past couple of years, is how people are saying that Wing is the best series. I'm sorry, but the plot made no sense, and the Gundams were way too OP. Even more so than SF. Heck, I can name Gundams that SF can't even be compared too.
Anyways, you mentione that the plot becomes awkward after episode 12. Well, I think it makes sense. Athrun still haven't found the answer to his question yet, and he wants to do something to help. And considering how good of a talker Durandal is, he gave Athrun a current solution. Shinn, his character takes a huge change. Yes, that is called development, believe or not. He goes from a teenager that has a horrible past, to a teenager that is full of anger(around the Stellar arc). to moving into him wanting a world with no war so that people doesn't need to suffer like he did. Hence he went along with the Destiny Plan. And to him losing everything in the final episode except Luna, as intended, and his development finished. That, is an anti-hero, and no, Destiny still focus on Shinn more than Kira. Look at episode 48 of the Remaster, that episode clearly focused on Shinn rather than on Kira. Moving on the Kira, he makes sense. His living his "back to normal" life. He clearly didn't want any fighting to happen again. But due to events, he went back to piloting his Freedom. Even so, he doesn't know if what he is doing is the correct thing. But he just can't do anything. That is what he was poundering about the whole series. What he really should be doing, and if what he is doing is the correct thing. Fast forward to the Destiny Plan arc, he knows that his job now is the make sure that the Destiny Plan won't go through. All the way to the last episode with his conversation with Durandal, he has set a clear path for himself. That is that he is prepared to fight if another war breaks out. This time, he has a clear resolution of what he should be doing. Durandal, his plan did not come out of nowhere, he clearly wants to change the world, and this was clearly mentioned multiple times. During a recap, he mentioned the names of the nucleobases. Rey, he was fighting hoping to change the world, But he realized that the world he is helping to fight for has no tomorrow. Which is what he truly wants considering his life is short. So, I'm going to end here.
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Old 2014-02-23, 09:39   Link #11053
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The reason why I brought Wing up is because I barely see people even mention about its animation. All I see, which I have been seeing the past couple of years, is how people are saying that Wing is the best series.
You simply didn’t look around enough, mate . In this forum alone, you can hardly find a dozen of active members who think Wing is the best series. In fact, people who aren’t fans of Wing easily outnumber those who adore it.
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Old 2014-02-23, 10:41   Link #11054
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Hey, there are people who think G Gundam is the best, you know?

Say, has anyone compare beam shot from different series? I mean, with UC, it's a simple yellow. With 00, there are sparkles in the beam. And in SEED, there is always a white outline next to the light red beam.
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Old 2014-02-23, 12:05   Link #11055
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I found g gundam fun to watch. But the action scenes weren't that good. To be honest, dbz had better fighting scenes.
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Old 2014-02-23, 13:43   Link #11056
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by weirdguy View Post
@Znozzy
Well, I'm pretty lazy just to go and quote what you said. The reason why I brought Wing up is because I barely see people even mention about its animation. All I see, which I have been seeing the past couple of years, is how people are saying that Wing is the best series. I'm sorry, but the plot made no sense, and the Gundams were way too OP. Even more so than SF. Heck, I can name Gundams that SF can't even be compared too.
Anyways, you mentione that the plot becomes awkward after episode 12. Well, I think it makes sense. Athrun still haven't found the answer to his question yet, and he wants to do something to help. And considering how good of a talker Durandal is, he gave Athrun a current solution. Shinn, his character takes a huge change. Yes, that is called development, believe or not. He goes from a teenager that has a horrible past, to a teenager that is full of anger(around the Stellar arc). to moving into him wanting a world with no war so that people doesn't need to suffer like he did. Hence he went along with the Destiny Plan. And to him losing everything in the final episode except Luna, as intended, and his development finished. That, is an anti-hero, and no, Destiny still focus on Shinn more than Kira. Look at episode 48 of the Remaster, that episode clearly focused on Shinn rather than on Kira. Moving on the Kira, he makes sense. His living his "back to normal" life. He clearly didn't want any fighting to happen again. But due to events, he went back to piloting his Freedom. Even so, he doesn't know if what he is doing is the correct thing. But he just can't do anything. That is what he was poundering about the whole series. What he really should be doing, and if what he is doing is the correct thing. Fast forward to the Destiny Plan arc, he knows that his job now is the make sure that the Destiny Plan won't go through. All the way to the last episode with his conversation with Durandal, he has set a clear path for himself. That is that he is prepared to fight if another war breaks out. This time, he has a clear resolution of what he should be doing. Durandal, his plan did not come out of nowhere, he clearly wants to change the world, and this was clearly mentioned multiple times. During a recap, he mentioned the names of the nucleobases. Rey, he was fighting hoping to change the world, But he realized that the world he is helping to fight for has no tomorrow. Which is what he truly wants considering his life is short. So, I'm going to end here.
Mind using enter in a while? reading that big block of text gave me quite a headache, no pun intended.

Obelisk summed it up quite well, i'm not a big fan of Gundam Wing either for that matter.

Anti-hero or not, Shinn and the Minerva crew gets shafted for Kira & the AA crew, Athrun stays as a main character pretty much throughout the show, as he did in SEED. Now, the main problem i have with Destiny is that it introduces you to a new likeable cast, then abandons them and doesnt bother developing them any more when they bring in the old crew. Not to mention they don't really bother developing the AA crew further either.

Not to mention Neo or the druggies, well, the Destiny druggies did get more development than the Seed ones.
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Old 2014-02-23, 16:14   Link #11057
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doesnt bother developing them any more when they bring in the old crew.
The minor characters aside, Shinn, Rey, and Lunamaria do have some development.
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Old 2014-02-23, 16:32   Link #11058
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The minor characters aside, Shinn, Rey, and Lunamaria do have some development.
Shinn has more development than anyone else in the show... Hell, it's the second to last episode and the big action sequence is completely undercut by Shinn's conversation with Durandal...

Still, on the subject of stock animation, it does bother me, but probably not as much as most people who already dislike the show for other reasons. On the one hand, it's cheap and flimsy and easily recognizable. On the other hand, it doesn't hurt the PLOT in any meaningful way and that's really why I watch the show. On the gripping hand, having new animation wouldn't hurt the plot either.

I may not be so shallow as to say I watch mecha for the fights, but there is no reason why a show with an interesting plot can't have a good fight too...
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Old 2014-02-23, 16:43   Link #11059
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I don't think anyone would mind a good mecha fight.
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Old 2014-02-23, 17:03   Link #11060
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Of course no one would mind a good mecha fight. Destiny had good fights in it. But the fighting scenes are a whole other case. What really bothers me is when people go as far to say Shinn did not develop at all. Clearly, people think that character development means a character becoming the "good guys". They even went and said Kira had no development in Destiny. People complained how Shinn was not like Kamille. And if he was, they would still complain how it is a "ripoff" of UC. People complained about Kira back in SEED.
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