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Old 2008-03-23, 11:00   Link #1241
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Didn't Shinn blame Kira (and Cagalli, and to a lesser extent, Athrun) for the death of his family in Destiny already? That aside, I didn't feel that Kira killed his family. His family was hit from a stray laser shot, and while the series never exactly showed who fired it I always thought it was from one of the Federation's drug soldiers (specifically, the bluish-colored one; Raider, if I remember right).
Nah he didn't even seem to remember the suits anyways.

But what happened was that while he was running Freedom was trading shots with Calamity. Freedom was in the air firing all guns at Calamity who was on the ground firing back into the air.

So most defintely it was simply the resulting explosion from the two of them that killed Shin's family.

But I find it hard to place the blame soley on Calamity since he was shooting in the sky and not on the ground. I mean how does a guy whose shooting at something in the air fire a stray shot into the ground?
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Old 2008-03-23, 11:38   Link #1242
Killer Tomato
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Originally Posted by hero147 View Post
You never know....The C.E. timeline might work out in the third series...Gundam Seed Destiny isnt THAT bad compared to all anime in general. The only thing that sucked in GSD basically was the ending and the reused ideas. The ending had horrible placement, I mean c'mon....They went shopping 4 phases before the final phase. Since I thought Gundam Seed was well-done, I believe Fukuda can make a pretty decent series, given a better writer and etc...Fukuda screwed up, even he admits that, but hey! Nobody's perfect.

For all we know, the third installment to the Seed timeline could be the best series you've ever seen....Since Fukuda EVEN ADMITS HE MESSED UP, he might just make a decent series, hopefully learning from his mistakes. He for sure, won't make another crap series, I can almost guarantee...almost....


As for first impressions, not many people thought Deathnote would be popular before it really finished the beginning.

I did state my reasons, and I'd also agree with you, if there's a 3rd instalment, it CAN be a good one, HOWEVER...

THere needs to be switch of focus to new characters. And judging by how the popular Kira and Lacus are, their sheer popularity will mean they will be brought back for yet. another. lame. series.
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Old 2008-03-23, 12:20   Link #1243
Var
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Originally Posted by Killer Tomato View Post
I did state my reasons, and I'd also agree with you, if there's a 3rd instalment, it CAN be a good one, HOWEVER...

THere needs to be switch of focus to new characters. And judging by how the popular Kira and Lacus are, their sheer popularity will mean they will be brought back for yet. another. lame. series.
They could always simply have them as cameo's, that may be good enough (though I doubt it). Stargazer didn't have Lacus or Kira, given it was about 50 minutes long.
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Old 2008-03-23, 13:24   Link #1244
nines
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Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
Shinn never blamed Kira for anything but Stella. Shit, Shinn never even KNEW who Kira was THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE SERIES. He just knew him as that gentle guy that liked flowers. In fact he DIDN'T know he was in the Freedom. Ever. In Final +, Athrun finally gives the two a formal introduction, making Shinn bawl one last time over his stupidity.

The teal druggy gundam was calamity.

And anyway, we'll never find out who killed Shinn's family, whether it was Kira misfiring or Calamity causing an explosion or whatnot.
in episode one you see the teal gundam get shot down by the destiny and exploding while shinn is getting the phone his family was in the explosion he just got nocked back. and then you see the destiny flying around shooting down more suits
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Old 2008-03-23, 14:00   Link #1245
hero147
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er....The Destiny Gundam wasn't in episode 1.......Anyhow, I would love to see the love between Lacus and Kira grow! Kira's freedom did actually kill Shinn's family, or more or so likely to. Shinn had no way of knowing who killed his family, since he was not looking when the incident occured.

On a sidenote, even with the reoccuring cast, it might be able to do well. I knew/thought Destiny was going to be crap, since Seed's ending gave almost no possiblity of another series. Unlike Destiny, I think another sequel might be easier to make for Destiny rather than seed with lacus and kira in plants and all.

The ending of Destiny surprised me, like the end end....Why did rey die? Kira and Athrun were going to pick him up. Didnt he say he wanted a future?

*Rey heads off with Kira and Athrun*
Talia:Rey come here...
Rey:But...but...I want to live!
Talia:REY GET YOUR BUTT OVER HERE.
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Old 2008-03-23, 18:05   Link #1246
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Nah he didn't even seem to remember the suits anyways.

But what happened was that while he was running Freedom was trading shots with Calamity. Freedom was in the air firing all guns at Calamity who was on the ground firing back into the air.

So most defintely it was simply the resulting explosion from the two of them that killed Shin's family.

But I find it hard to place the blame soley on Calamity since he was shooting in the sky and not on the ground. I mean how does a guy whose shooting at something in the air fire a stray shot into the ground?
Because Orb's army was also fighting, if I remember right, and they were on the ground. They were also getting shot at by the three druggies. That aside, the beam that killed Shinn's family didn't seem like the type that was fired by Freedom, but that's based off of my memory and is also debatable. I'm fine with saying that the family got caught in the crossfire but I dislike saying that Kira killed Shinn's family - it sounds deliberate, and we all know there were plenty of instances in SEED where Kira identified all people and did his best to avoid hitting them or getting them involved. Maybe the directors wanted it to be a shot from Kira that killed Shinn's family for cinematic effect but it doesn't play well with Kira's past actions.
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Old 2008-03-23, 18:06   Link #1247
nines
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Originally Posted by hero147 View Post
er....The Destiny Gundam wasn't in episode 1.......Anyhow, I would love to see the love between Lacus and Kira grow! Kira's freedom did actually kill Shinn's family, or more or so likely to. Shinn had no way of knowing who killed his family, since he was not looking when the incident occured.

On a sidenote, even with the reoccuring cast, it might be able to do well. I knew/thought Destiny was going to be crap, since Seed's ending gave almost no possiblity of another series. Unlike Destiny, I think another sequel might be easier to make for Destiny rather than seed with lacus and kira in plants and all.

The ending of Destiny surprised me, like the end end....Why did rey die? Kira and Athrun were going to pick him up. Didnt he say he wanted a future?

*Rey heads off with Kira and Athrun*
Talia:Rey come here...
Rey:But...but...I want to live!
Talia:REY GET YOUR BUTT OVER HERE.
ah im sorry i meant the freedom x.x
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Old 2008-03-23, 18:12   Link #1248
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Because Orb's army was also fighting, if I remember right, and they were on the ground. They were also getting shot at by the three druggies. That aside, the beam that killed Shinn's family didn't seem like the type that was fired by Freedom, but that's based off of my memory and is also debatable. I'm fine with saying that the family got caught in the crossfire but I dislike saying that Kira killed Shinn's family - it sounds deliberate, and we all know there were plenty of instances in SEED where Kira identified all people and did his best to avoid hitting them or getting them involved. Maybe the directors wanted it to be a shot from Kira that killed Shinn's family for cinematic effect but it doesn't play well with Kira's past actions.
Calamity was fighting against Freedom at the time. Calamity opened fire upwards at Freedom, Freedom fires down at Calamity (He uses all his guns including his rail and beam cannons), explosion occurs and sends Shin flying. THat's how the scene goes frame by frame. That's why I said "caught in the explosion."

To blame it on the druggies is ridiculous because they were fighting Freedom who was in the air.

And eitherway it's kinda pointless because Shin doesn't even remember Freedom, etc. He doesn't blame them, he blames Orb. If he saw Calamity again it'd be the same thing with Freedom.
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Old 2008-03-23, 23:39   Link #1249
Synria_
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Originally Posted by Last_Hope View Post
I love SEED but I sincerely hope that the movie will be the last we see of it. I donīt mind them continuing the CE but SEED should end (preferrably with a happy ending for Kira and Lacus ) with the movie. I donīt think thereīs anything more (thatīll be good) they can or should do with it. Just let an equally overpowered terrorist fraction fight the good guys in the movie, and lose, and give me a Kira Lacus wedding at the end of the movie and then let it rest.
I agree with this paragraph. I don't care if it will repeat the same things again, I just want to see more of Kira and Lacus and their group of friends fighting another enemy and beating them. Then they all get married and rule till old age. Ah yes... a good ending indeed. I don't mind repetition given that they will add new scenes where necessary.
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Old 2008-03-24, 05:36   Link #1250
Killer Tomato
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Calamity was fighting against Freedom at the time. Calamity opened fire upwards at Freedom, Freedom fires down at Calamity (He uses all his guns including his rail and beam cannons), explosion occurs and sends Shin flying. THat's how the scene goes frame by frame. That's why I said "caught in the explosion."

To blame it on the druggies is ridiculous because they were fighting Freedom who was in the air.

And eitherway it's kinda pointless because Shin doesn't even remember Freedom, etc. He doesn't blame them, he blames Orb. If he saw Calamity again it'd be the same thing with Freedom.
Right on. Freedom was an embodiment of Orb's failure to defend its citizens while upholding its ideals; and that's what Shinn hated.
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Old 2008-03-24, 10:08   Link #1251
RedWing
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Shinn was shown to be completely unreasonable in what he wanted orb to do. Did he want orb to have joined the Earth Alliance? If so then why did he get so angry when they DID join them. Did he want them to ask ZAFT for help? Thats one of the reasons i thought Shinn was a crap character; He simply didn't make any sense.
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Old 2008-03-24, 10:33   Link #1252
Sir Dearka
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No, he wanted Orb to pay. Maybe he was selfish to want it, but, ultimately, the country reminds him of the life he once had and lost.

We have to remember that Shinn was no intellectual, nor idealist (though there are many instances when his morality is exposed, like when he rescues the prisoners from the EF camp). He was just a talented orphan with strong emotional issues
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Old 2008-03-24, 10:35   Link #1253
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by RedWing View Post
Shinn was shown to be completely unreasonable in what he wanted orb to do. Did he want orb to have joined the Earth Alliance?
He wanted Orb to act in a way that wouldn't lead to the deaths of his family. The foreign policy of the Atha's led to their deaths. At that time, he would have wanted Orb to back down.

Quote:
If so then why did he get so angry when they DID join them. Did he want them to ask ZAFT for help?
Why is he angry when, two years later, Orb (still under the Athas) reverses policy under no such pressure and declares for the EA, offering up the Minerva and all the the people on board who had worked to try and prevent the drop of Junius Seven, doing so by forcing them into a trap?

Yes, how unreasonable for someone to get pissed at Orb's hypocrisy at changing postions, years AFTER doing so would have prevented the deaths of many innocents!


Quote:
Thats one of the reasons i thought Shinn was a crap character; He simply didn't make any sense.
You DO realize that there's several years difference AND a change in circumstances, don't you? It's rather natural to have a different opinion under different circumstances.

In Seed, the EA fleet outside the islands threatens to invade unless they are allowed use of the mass driver. Atha says "up yours, I'd rather die than give up my beliefs" and the EA says "have it your way."

In Destiny, Orb, under no such threat, decides to roll over and ally themselves to the EA, and does so by forcing the Minerva into a trap.

See the difference?
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Old 2008-03-24, 10:36   Link #1254
Killer Tomato
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Originally Posted by RedWing View Post
Shinn was shown to be completely unreasonable in what he wanted orb to do. Did he want orb to have joined the Earth Alliance? If so then why did he get so angry when they DID join them. Did he want them to ask ZAFT for help? Thats one of the reasons i thought Shinn was a crap character; He simply didn't make any sense.
Shinn was angry that Orb did not take into account the safety of its citizens. Granted, he may not have known what happened at the political level, but his anger was pretty human and realistic. Lose your entire family because of your country's failure to protect its citizens - if you call being angry over that crap, then I'm not sure what's human.
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Old 2008-03-24, 10:38   Link #1255
Sir Dearka
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
He wanted Orb to act in a way that wouldn't lead to the deaths of his family. The foreign policy of the Atha's led to their deaths. At that time, he would have wanted Orb to back down.

Why is he angry when, two years later, Orb (still under the Athas) reverses policy under no such pressure and declares for the EA, offering up the Minerva and all the the people on board who had worked to try and prevent the drop of Junius Seven, doing so by forcing them into a trap?

Yes, how unreasonable for someone to get pissed at Orb's hypocrisy at changing postions, years AFTER doing so would have prevented the deaths of many innocents!


You DO realize that there's several years difference AND a change in circumstances, don't you? It's rather natural to have a different opinion under different circumstances.

In Seed, the EA fleet outside the islands threatens to invade unless they are allowed use of the mass driver. Atha says "up yours, I'd rather die than give up my beliefs" and the EA says "have it your way."

In Destiny, Orb, under no such threat, decides to roll over and ally themselves to the EA, and does so by forcing the Minerva into a trap.

See the difference?

^ Word.

I find it funny that, being a SEED fan, a bit disappointed with Destiny, but still having Shinn as his favorite character of the second series, I have often to struggle with both CE haters and hardcore Kira/Lacus/Athrun/Cagalli fans who just hated Asuka
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Old 2008-03-24, 10:44   Link #1256
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post
^ Word.

I find it funny that, being a SEED fan, a bit disappointed with Destiny, but still having Shinn as his favorite character of the second series, I have often to struggle with both CE haters and hardcore Kira/Lacus/Athrun/Cagalli fans who just hated Asuka
I don't hate Shinn. I hate his english voice actor, how his character was raped by the end, and how the story handle him at various points, but I've felt he had potential.
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Old 2008-03-24, 10:49   Link #1257
Sir Dearka
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
I don't hate Shinn. I hate his english voice actor, how his character was raped by the end, and how the story handle him at various points, but I've felt he had potential.
So did I. It's a shame he was wasted in such way. But hey, at least he got the coolest Gundams to pilot in his series
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Old 2008-03-24, 12:00   Link #1258
4Tran
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Originally Posted by hero147
On a sidenote, even with the reoccuring cast, it might be able to do well. I knew/thought Destiny was going to be crap, since Seed's ending gave almost no possiblity of another series. Unlike Destiny, I think another sequel might be easier to make for Destiny rather than seed with lacus and kira in plants and all.
While Seed's ending was pretty conclusive, I think that it was still fairly plain that the EA and PLANT hadn't resolved their differences, and that another war was all too likely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hero147
The ending of Destiny surprised me, like the end end....Why did rey die? Kira and Athrun were going to pick him up. Didnt he say he wanted a future?

*Rey heads off with Kira and Athrun*
Talia:Rey come here...
Rey:But...but...I want to live!
Talia:REY GET YOUR BUTT OVER HERE.
As I said before, Rey and Talia are by far the most underdeveloped characters in Destiny. With a bit more fleshing out, the story would have been more coherent and poignant. As it stands, it's a big wasted opportunity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWing
Shinn was shown to be completely unreasonable in what he wanted orb to do. Did he want orb to have joined the Earth Alliance? If so then why did he get so angry when they DID join them. Did he want them to ask ZAFT for help? Thats one of the reasons i thought Shinn was a crap character; He simply didn't make any sense.
Shinn's feelings on the matter aren't reasonable. Unfortunately, people in general tend not to be particularly reasonable about things which are close to their hearts, so at least he's realistic in that regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young
He wanted Orb to act in a way that wouldn't lead to the deaths of his family. The foreign policy of the Atha's led to their deaths. At that time, he would have wanted Orb to back down.
It wasn't Uzumi's policies that led to the EA's attack on Orb, though. That happened because Orb had something that Azrael wanted. The only way for Uzumi to do to avoid an attack would have been to ally with the EA upon receiving the ultimatum. ZAFT at that point was at a low ebb, and a joint EA-Orb attack on Carpentaria would have crippled their operations on Earth. However, I doubt that such a decision would sit very well with too many people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer Tomato
Shinn was angry that Orb did not take into account the safety of its citizens. Granted, he may not have known what happened at the political level, but his anger was pretty human and realistic. Lose your entire family because of your country's failure to protect its citizens - if you call being angry over that crap, then I'm not sure what's human.
this is both a human and an unreasonable position to hold. It's akin to a Dutch citizen being angry at his government for not being able to withstand the German invasion in 1940.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post
So did I. It's a shame he was wasted in such way. But hey, at least he got the coolest Gundams to pilot in his series
The way Shinn was "wasted" was also pretty much the point of his character. I can well imagine that the imagery of him crying in Lunamaria's arms at the very end had been the endpoint the creators had been aiming towards from the very beginning.
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Old 2008-03-24, 12:38   Link #1259
RedWing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
He wanted Orb to act in a way that wouldn't lead to the deaths of his family. The foreign policy of the Atha's led to their deaths. At that time, he would have wanted Orb to back down.

Why is he angry when, two years later, Orb (still under the Athas) reverses policy under no such pressure and declares for the EA, offering up the Minerva and all the the people on board who had worked to try and prevent the drop of Junius Seven, doing so by forcing them into a trap?

Yes, how unreasonable for someone to get pissed at Orb's hypocrisy at changing postions, years AFTER doing so would have prevented the deaths of many innocents!

You DO realize that there's several years difference AND a change in circumstances, don't you? It's rather natural to have a different opinion under different circumstances.

In Seed, the EA fleet outside the islands threatens to invade unless they are allowed use of the mass driver. Atha says "up yours, I'd rather die than give up my beliefs" and the EA says "have it your way."

In Destiny, Orb, under no such threat, decides to roll over and ally themselves to the EA, and does so by forcing the Minerva into a trap.

See the difference?
No. There is no difference. Do you really think that EA would have just used the mass driver? Seriously? With all the technology in orb they would have been forced to use their military force to help EA.

Then there is the fact that a good population of Orb's citizens including Shinn's family are coordinators. The EA was being run by Azreal who was head of blue cosmos. Accepting to lay down their government so EA could take over would NOT have been good for ORB's citizens. There is also the issue with the War against ZAFT. ZAFT might have ended up attacking ORB under Zala, which yet again would have put ORB's citizens in trouble.

However when ORB joined EA, they were not forced to give up their government. They were not forced to risk civilian lives. Instead they took a precautionary measure to SAVE their civilians.

Shinn was angry WELL before he new they had been put in a trap by the EA, therefore that reasoning is moot.
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Old 2008-03-24, 12:39   Link #1260
Sir Dearka
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@4Tran - Even so, they could've solved it way better. Like by giving Shinn the screentime worth of the protagonist instead of feeding us obvious cliches from the POV of Kira.
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