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Old 2007-11-23, 06:47   Link #741
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
As for your point here, I never said that the proper response was to ignore her. Rather, if Hiro had in fact heard the messages, I would have encouraged him to take steps in helping her reintegrate with society on a social level. Introducing new people to her, helping her make friends--but making it clear that he disapproved and would not accept neurotic or obsessive behaviour around him. On the other hand, Hiro is not in an optimal position to perform those functions.
You are making a lot of assumptions here based on your own preferences, but that does not necessarily carry over to this show. Somehow you are assuming that Hiro actually would disapprove of her actions, while there is nothing at all to indicate such. You are assuming that Hiro is somehow burdened by Miyako, while he is not. I can't realistically picture Hiro taking the steps you described, because that goes against his character. You are making some pretty huge accusations and solutions for a minor problem that has much more simple solutions available. This isn't a show about psychopaths you know.

Though that is the impression i get from reading most things here - things getting blown way out of proportion.
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Old 2007-11-23, 06:53   Link #742
SuperKnuckles
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To be fair for everyone looking at the issues, the show itself is blowing it up for us a bit too.

Renji bawling and making a Shakespearean mental-break was only implied. That was probably a small moment he had in his own mind.

Similarly, Miyako's problems could be a bit dramatized according to her own perspective (which is pretty bad from what the show has shown us).

Ditto to Chihiro and her GOD MODE of her own ailment, Kei and her own possessiveness about Hiro, Kyosuke's near-obsessive attraction to Kei, etc.

But I have to admit to being one of those people who made a big fuss about it. I really get into these arguments even when I don't see myself as liking arguments for argument's sakes
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Old 2007-11-23, 07:50   Link #743
Sol Falling
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Well, I couldn't imagine Hiro taking those steps either. Which is why I said that I don't think Hiro is in an ideal position to help her out.

I don't believe that Miyako is a psychopath, either. In fact, my original position was one which stated that her situation was fairly common, and that all it would take to widen her perspective and get out of her funk would be a single unexpected bitchslap (that qualifier basically only excludes Kei, because coming from her it would be wholly rationalizable from Miyako's current perspective) (also, metaphorical slaps to the face are fine too). From this perspective, the show would actually show more "healing" of this aspect of Miyako's character than I would consider necessary.

But as for my assumptions on Hiro's character, well, actually. Nope, I was assuming that a normal person would disapprove of and feel burdened by another person acting in such a manner as MiyaMiya did. The relevance of the "normal person" comes from the fact that a "normal person" is best suited to helping Miyako readjust herself. Hiro, in his current state, rather than being bothered, would actually undergo some character development as he is forced to consider the existance of people beyond himself. I'm not sure how he would act after that revelation, but I would trust he wouldn't take a stupid "I love you and will be here for you 'cause you're a girl and you like me a lot" stance.

If you want me to speak directly in terms of the likely direction of the show, however, I predict that Hiro never finds out that Miyako has these issues (at least until after she resolves them), and instead they begin doing fun things out and around town. Although Miyako's initial motivation would only be spending time with Hiro, through actually doing things she begins to see that the world is colourful after all. Over time she manages to develop her own interests and become her own person. Finally, some sort of contrived romancey thing resolves the "colour" metaphor in some meaningful way and we all walk away satisfied.

And that would be great, there's nothing enjoyable about watching the kind of scenario I initially described. I merely saw it as a more prudent course of action if, as in most cases, the person being obsessed over both did not have significant issues of their own to sort out and also were not a fated lover who were practically guaranteed a relationship with the obsessor.
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Old 2007-11-23, 08:23   Link #744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I'm not watchin Myself Yourself right now actually. What's it about?
M; Y is drama series, something like what NSW said. Comparing Ef with Myself; Yourself is like comparing Juuni Kokki(Great complex series) with Fushigi Yuugi(Love/Hate series). While Ef was meant to be complex series, its relatively good presentation and storytelling makes it much more likeble and easier to understand. Myself; Yourself was meant to be very simple, low budget promotional anime but its presentation and storytelling makes it harder to understand and easier to drop. It doesn't have many likeable characters and chances are that if you liked Renji then you will end up hating Sana.

If you ever consider watching it then I would recommend that you lower your expectations to 1/10th of what you expect from Ef then you will be able to enjoy it.
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Old 2007-11-23, 09:25   Link #745
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Watched episode 7.
The visuals were awesome. How is it called, post modern? Actually i cant recall seeing something like that before.
Plotwise its all very nice boat. I mean using the phone, deleting messages, putting ppl to ignore list etc doesnt promise anything good.
In Myself ; Yourself it appears that the authors know the limits and here they are a bit overdoing it. However nothing terrible happened so far and judging by the preview things are supposed to settle down a bit.
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Old 2007-11-23, 09:44   Link #746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Well, I couldn't imagine Hiro taking those steps either. Which is why I said that I don't think Hiro is in an ideal position to help her out.

I don't believe that Miyako is a psychopath, either. In fact, my original position was one which stated that her situation was fairly common, and that all it would take to widen her perspective and get out of her funk would be a single unexpected bitchslap (that qualifier basically only excludes Kei, because coming from her it would be wholly rationalizable from Miyako's current perspective) (also, metaphorical slaps to the face are fine too). From this perspective, the show would actually show more "healing" of this aspect of Miyako's character than I would consider necessary.
ouch...that is a it harsh dont you think?
while i would like to see miyako getting such a rude awakening to reality, it isnt like it will happen. her problem is a more mental one that can only be healed through actions that dont involve harm imo...hiro needs to talk to her to try and open her up to her wont situation.

she is feeling like there isnt anyone out there for her right? imo her whole mental state isnt something normal - rather on the extreme side imo...while "losing" your parents maybe painful - she has shown that she is a lot more sensitive to such things than normal people. i think she has always thought that she may have contributed to her parents splitting up (which is possible considering her age), and then this caused the knockback effect that isolated her from anyone else.

come to think she has never been see with anyone else other than hiro...doesnt anyone think that it is her problem that she doesnt want to make friends? we know that she is a regular as skipping classes so this could have been one of those isolation factors as she is portrayed to be a "bad girl".

so a slap back to reality could technically work...though im not sure what miyako fans would think
Quote:
But as for my assumptions on Hiro's character, well, actually. Nope, I was assuming that a normal person would disapprove of and feel burdened by another person acting in such a manner as MiyaMiya did. The relevance of the "normal person" comes from the fact that a "normal person" is best suited to helping Miyako readjust herself. Hiro, in his current state, rather than being bothered, would actually undergo some character development as he is forced to consider the existance of people beyond himself. I'm not sure how he would act after that revelation, but I would trust he wouldn't take a stupid "I love you and will be here for you 'cause you're a girl and you like me a lot" stance.
how about a normal person that is also her friend?

hiro very much considers miyako to he his friend however annoying she may be. this is a part of everyday life afterall. i think he would be caring enough to undergo development to help her - whilst at the same time is able to shape his own "boring" (or doesnt give much of a dam) personality.

ill take off the cheesy scenario but something similar to that could happen. just imagine myako crying in his arms telling him that she loves him and cant live without him. any normal human would feel touched (or a small portion would be totally freaked out ) so for hiro it is most likely that he would accept her feelings. thus kicking kei out of the triangle
Quote:
If you want me to speak directly in terms of the likely direction of the show, however, I predict that Hiro never finds out that Miyako has these issues (at least until after she resolves them), and instead they begin doing fun things out and around town. Although Miyako's initial motivation would only be spending time with Hiro, through actually doing things she begins to see that the world is colourful after all. Over time she manages to develop her own interests and become her own person. Finally, some sort of contrived romancey thing resolves the "colour" metaphor in some meaningful way and we all walk away satisfied.

And that would be great, there's nothing enjoyable about watching the kind of scenario I initially described. I merely saw it as a more prudent course of action if, as in most cases, the person being obsessed over both did not have significant issues of their own to sort out and also were not a fated lover who were practically guaranteed a relationship with the obsessor.
that course you described could work if only you didnt rule out kei

in that case id say it has minimal chance of it working.

now if hiro is a senstive fellow (lawls) then he might become aware of miyako's absence for a prolonged period of time. during which i believe that emo miyako would have locked herself up in her house and weeped like she has never weeped before.

hiro may come to her place to be her saving grace, the romance thing can happen after hiro heals her heart - during which time they start to go out. while kei is pretty much left in the dust.
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Old 2007-11-23, 10:12   Link #747
Kaoru Chujo
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Episode 7 is making me revise my estimate of this show from "excellent" to "masterpiece."

The subtlety of Chihiro's feelings and Renji's realizations about her are among the best things I've seen in anime. And the scene of Miyako's panicky phone calls was brilliant, both visually and from the seiyuu, Taguchi Hiroko.
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Old 2007-11-23, 10:12   Link #748
grey_moon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles View Post
Well, I don't see Hiro having that kind of baggage just yet. He just seems REALLY burnt out. Actually, I'm just about in the same situation as he is, so I don't know if I can look at it from a distance. But Hiro at least has something going and possible solutions with Kei and Miyako. So he is definitely not hopeless at least.

I guess Hiro really is pushing himself then. I think him still going to school, no matter how halfheartedly, is symbolic of his own indecisiveness.
So you don't agree that he is hurting himself? He can't even hold a pair of chopsticks.

Burnt out at 16? I don't think it can be called healthy or normal. Sure maybe he is forced to be in this situation due to his circumstances with his dad.

If you are a pro mangaka, living on your own, suffering from being burnt out with a damaged wrist from how hard you work at the tender ages of 16 then I'll take your experiences at face value.

My comments in regards to psychology were more aimed at the whole concept of is Miyako crazy. Notice how I said about counted as norm to society.... One man's crazy is another's genius etc etc....

*Edit*

I just watched the epi again and I can only describe Miyako's phone messages as a desperate cry for help.
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Old 2007-11-23, 13:50   Link #749
Kaoru Chujo
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Miyako's phone messages are definitely a cry for help. She has been alone for maybe years, and now she finds someone she actually loves and wants to be with, instead of keeping everyone at a safe arm's length as she had been doing. This is her own attempt to solve her problems, but she needs him to help her. Is she "crazy"? Aren't we all? It is even more crazy to avoid any reliance on other people. I myself think that Hiro will realize the effect his abandonment of her has had on her and will try to make up for it. We'll see Saturday.

I love the way everyone is acting out of a combination of selfish and unselfish motives: Kei wants to help Hiro, but she also wants him for herself. Miya loves him, but he is also a way of solving her own problems. Chihiro loves being with Renji, but the fact that she forgets each day after it is over means that she is often acting as she thinks her character should, rather than as she feels. Hiro enjoys being with Miya and knows he has to help Kei, but it's not clear that he "loves" them. Maybe he loves being a mangaka more.

Either Kei or Miyako could break through the wall that Hiro seems to have built around himself. So far, Miyako had been doing more in that direction, by her "annoying" but wonderful flightiness. Kei now does it by being hurt and needing help.

I like all the characters. They all seem to be real, complex people, despite the fantastic way things are presented.

By the way, I think we are now delving into the reasons why the guy in the church wanted to warn people against being involved with Chihiro. She is hard to predict, since her life situation is so abnormal.
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Old 2007-11-23, 14:34   Link #750
guuchan
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Wow, I was gone for one day and this thread has extended 3 pages. You can't imagine how overjoyed I am right now, seeing that this show hasn't been as popular as expected (i.e. download numbers dropped dramatically after the initial episodes), simply because a lot of people couldn't accept the style of its presentation and/or the complexity of the story. I found it a bit disheartening that anime fans nowadays were so used to cliche or stereotype type of shows, that they didn't even attempt to appreciate what this show had to offer. Heck, even one of the subbing groups dropped it because their staff "lost interest in this series". But seeing this is really encouraging, especially for us (okay, I admit I'm the one on the team who's most hyped about this show/game, but at least the rest of the members enjoy it, more or less) who do it for the love of the series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayako View Post
Spoiler for Renji and Chihiro, episode 7:


Hmm...I'm not even sure if what I said made any sense.
Makes perfect sense to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy View Post
She may be the color for his world, but it's all forced and fake. The underlying problem here is that Miyako doesn't need Hiro - she just needs someone. She acts cute and reckless because she perceives that that's the kind of person that Hiro wants.
Does anyone believe her purse was actually stolen?
Even though her seemingly cheerfulness might be a little forced, her personality is just the same as she appears --- carefree and straightforward. Making up lies and plotting schemes are just not something she would do. If she has something to say, she will tell you straight ahead; if she feels happy/angry/etc about something, she will show it on her face. Because of that, quite a few times she has said something that's pretty shocking. I believe they should have successfully portraited her that way in the show, and she's even more so in the game.
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Old 2007-11-23, 15:20   Link #751
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Miyako would be my favorite characters, while she suffers from a mental barrier from her rather upsetting past, she has the most to grow from and of course like already said, only Hiro would be able to help her from her delima. Not like anyone else like to deal with her and she doesn't really stick out like a sore thumb other than her good looks. Her personality is a difficult one to feel comfortable with. Miyako has a pretty smart mouth with an eliteist attitude but seemingly enough was shut out with Kei's outward confession to herself on her so called dreams. Of course now Miyako is in a terrible spot, almost like she's like a broken machine. Pretty much she's in that spot right after you get dumped >.<
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Old 2007-11-23, 15:34   Link #752
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Episode 7's monologue-like text-messaging just pushed this show to levels beyond anything I've ever seen in a drama.
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Old 2007-11-23, 17:32   Link #753
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
ouch...that is a it harsh dont you think?
while i would like to see miyako getting such a rude awakening to reality, it isnt like it will happen. her problem is a more mental one that can only be healed through actions that dont involve harm imo...hiro needs to talk to her to try and open her up to her wont situation.

she is feeling like there isnt anyone out there for her right? imo her whole mental state isnt something normal - rather on the extreme side imo...while "losing" your parents maybe painful - she has shown that she is a lot more sensitive to such things than normal people. i think she has always thought that she may have contributed to her parents splitting up (which is possible considering her age), and then this caused the knockback effect that isolated her from anyone else.

come to think she has never been see with anyone else other than hiro...doesnt anyone think that it is her problem that she doesnt want to make friends? we know that she is a regular as skipping classes so this could have been one of those isolation factors as she is portrayed to be a "bad girl".

so a slap back to reality could technically work...though im not sure what miyako fans would think
Her mental state might not be normal, but it's not unusual. Basically, she is still stuck with the childlike perception that the world is centered around her. That is why she feels like its okay for her to feel so sad that she becomes functionally crippled from being alone. Like I mentioned in a previous post, she doesn't know how to control her emotions.

Growing out of that perception is part of every person's life. But it's not something someone else can do for you--you have to come to this realization yourself. That's why Hiro giving her special treatment would actually make it worse: it would reinforce her idea that she's what the world revolves around.

And yes, the reason she is still stuck with this perception is because she's alone all the time, i.e. not having friends.

Quote:
how about a normal person that is also her friend?

hiro very much considers miyako to he his friend however annoying she may be. this is a part of everyday life afterall. i think he would be caring enough to undergo development to help her - whilst at the same time is able to shape his own "boring" (or doesnt give much of a dam) personality.

ill take off the cheesy scenario but something similar to that could happen. just imagine myako crying in his arms telling him that she loves him and cant live without him. any normal human would feel touched (or a small portion would be totally freaked out ) so for hiro it is most likely that he would accept her feelings. thus kicking kei out of the triangle

that course you described could work if only you didnt rule out kei

in that case id say it has minimal chance of it working.

now if hiro is a senstive fellow (lawls) then he might become aware of miyako's absence for a prolonged period of time. during which i believe that emo miyako would have locked herself up in her house and weeped like she has never weeped before.

hiro may come to her place to be her saving grace, the romance thing can happen after hiro heals her heart - during which time they start to go out. while kei is pretty much left in the dust.
I don't quite feel like either of the girls has the ability to interfere with Hiro's interactions with the other one. It's entirely up to Hiro, really, and I feel like he'd hang out with whoever's there.

Anyway, "any normal person would be touched". Yes, but with what emotion? That would be pity. That would not be romantic love (unless, again, you're desperate. And that would be manipulation, btw: "I'm going to take advantage of your need for me to fulfill my own emotional and sexual desires."). How could you be happy that somebody needed you for something so superficial as being around them so they wouldn't go into depression/have a nervous breakdown/commit suicide? Wouldn't you want them to be stronger than that? 'cause accepting something like that is taking a huge load of responsibility onto yourself, for no good reason.

My point is, Hiro being the one to bring Miyako out of her dilemma would be a very significant obstacle to them ever working well together in a healthy relationship. And furthermore, most other people would actually be more effective than Hiro in helping her become her own person.

well, edit: Hiro being aware of Miyako's dilemma and actively working to bring her out of it would be a very significant etc. etc. It's an issue of respect, it's an issue of being seperate people. Codependance never works unless both parties are utterly, completely unable to be creeped out by the other.
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Old 2007-11-23, 17:44   Link #754
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Anyway, "any normal person would be touched". Yes, but with what emotion? That would be pity. That would not be romantic love (unless, again, you're desperate. And that would be manipulation, btw: "I'm going to take advantage of your need for me to fulfill my own emotional and sexual desires."). How could you be happy that somebody needed you for something so superficial as being around them so they wouldn't go into depression/have a nervous breakdown/commit suicide? Wouldn't you want them to be stronger than that? 'cause accepting something like that is taking a huge load of responsibility onto yourself, for no good reason.
Which is why it's all the more important that Kei erased all the evidence of Miyako's breakdown. From what he knows of her thus far, he may or may not already have feelings for her (he's a bit hard to read, and is scatterbrained at the best of times). If he found himself falling in love with her absent this, what we the viewers witnessed, that wouldn't be manipulation. In other words, you need to seperate the reactions the viewers should have (omniscious/omnipresent as we are), and what the characters can have with the information they have available. If he falls in love with Miyako without knowing of her episode, I suppose we could call it a form of narrative irony.

Quote:
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My point is, Hiro being the one to bring Miyako out of her dilemma would be a very significant obstacle to them ever working well together in a healthy relationship. And furthermore, most other people would actually be more effective than Hiro in helping her become her own person.
While this is of course true in "real life", you have to admit that fiction is full of examples of this sort of thing working out. Most romances, especially teenage romances, tend to glorify co-dependancy, largely because that reflects the state of mind of the average teenager. I'd be a bit weary of expecting too much insight and wisdom from characters their ages. Again, this is the sort of analysis we the viewers can have, only because we're on the outside looking in.
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Old 2007-11-23, 18:10   Link #755
Kaoru Chujo
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Call me a romantic, but I personally am "creeped out" by this supposedly objective analysis of the romantic situations here. "Co-dependency" is a matter of degree, in my experience/opinion. If we weren't psychologically co-dependent, we wouldn't be human. We would be machines or totally separate entities of some inhuman kind. Such apparent rationality seems to me to tend to exclude feeling. Of course we "use" each other in romantic situations. We wouldn't get together romantically if we didn't satisfy psychological needs and predispositions in each other. Marriage, then, might just be a matter of sex, procreation, and a business partnership. And that would be using each other in a much less interesting, if perhaps more dependable and traditional, way.
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Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2007-11-23 at 18:26.
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Old 2007-11-23, 18:44   Link #756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
Call me a romantic, but I personally am "creeped out" by this supposedly objective analysis of the romantic situations here. "Co-dependency" is a matter of degree, in my experience/opinion. If we weren't psychologically co-dependent, we wouldn't be human. We would be machines or totally separate entities of some inhuman kind. Such supposed rationality seems to me to tend to exclude feeling. Of course we "use" each other in romantic situations. We wouldn't get together romantically if we didn't satisfy psychological needs and predispositions in each other. Marriage, then, might just be a matter of sex, procreation, and a business partnership. And that would be using each other in a much less interesting, if perhaps more dependable and traditional, way.
Well, yeah, I definitely see your point, and have been feeling sort of the same way about the this long string of analysis. It makes some psychological sense, but it still seems to be "missing the mark".

What they're trying to drive at is in the difference between "co-dependancy" ("I need you to complete me/go on in life" - the other party is glorified) and "interdependancy" ("We're better together than apart" - both parties are equals). Miyako, in her needy broken state, isn't at a good place in life to be in a healthy relationship; Hiro's every action can sway her from one extreme to another, from euphoria to the deepest depression. What she "needs" more than a boyfriend right now is to recover from her trauma and be able to live a "normal, healthy life".

However, this is what real life is like. As you said, we're all broken to various degrees. And when you're in the middle of it, it's nearly impossible to step back and see everything rationally. We let feelings trump our better judgement. We act on inpulse, do and say stupid things, make suboptimal decisions, and learn to live with the consequences. And despite psychological theory, over the long term, the best relationships aren't the one that are the most problem-free, they're the ones that find a way to overcome all their problems.

So all that to say, I would agree that we're missing the mark a bit if we let our rationality completely trump our feelings when watching this show. One of the greatest parts of anime, in my opinion, is letting yourself get absorbed into the show and get carried away by it. If you can't do that, at least to a certain degree, then even emotional shows like these become exercises in rationality, analysis, and behavioural study. I can't help but think that, from a certain perspective, that would be both missing out and, to a certain degree, missing the point. Then again, you could probably "call me a romantic" as well.
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Old 2007-11-23, 21:00   Link #757
grey_moon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
. Miyako, in her needy broken state, isn't at a good place in life to be in a healthy relationship; Hiro's every action can sway her from one extreme to another, from euphoria to the deepest depression. What she "needs" more than a boyfriend right now is to recover from her trauma and be able to live a "normal, healthy life".
That is a good point and if you consider it in the context of building up a relationship it can spell disaster in the future. For example Miyako I think we can all agree on is not quite right in the head. So hopefully she will get better. Now if she is in a relationship built up on her being extremely needy her partner might not be able to accept the Miyako who has resolved all her issues. They would not be the person who they fell in love with. I of course hope that the love in Miyako's life would want her to be healthy over her need for them.
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Old 2007-11-24, 02:33   Link #758
SuperKnuckles
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As things being a cry for help goes, that seems to go with ALL the characters (amazing, I know).

Kei and her need for something more serious,

Chihiro and her inability to get to know people due to her illness,

Kyosuke's mind-wandering,

Hiro being burnt out,

Miyako and her apparent cries for help,

Renji and his naivete which is all the more helping him feel Chihiro's pain rather than blunting it.


There is that one Angel/Nun girl who is going around putting the characters together or giving mysterious hints. Maybe the real story is actually about her helping lost souls.
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Old 2007-11-24, 02:47   Link #759
frustra
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WOW. ef continues to deliver, in both visuals and content. I love how the monologue played out, with the background music adding to the intensity of the scene, and the Chihiro/Renji story continues to be complicated, and it could go anywhere from here. can't wait for episode 8.

9.5/10
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Old 2007-11-24, 02:59   Link #760
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles View Post
Renji and his naivete which is all the more helping him feel Chihiro's pain rather than blunting it.
I really like how you put that. When I think about it after reading that line, it does seem like he was sucked into her world rather then being the prince who pulls her into his. I do have to point out I do think what he has done is good for Chiaki as it give her something to look forward to, as she did seem like she had given up all hope. I just hope he doesn't mess it all up. Come one Renji I'll buy you a pint when you reach 18 if you pull your socks up and act like the hero that I know you want to be!
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