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Old 2007-11-26, 19:48   Link #821
Doppel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
However, you want to enjoy your anime is fine, but in a forum, you need to think. If you present your opinions with no support, you will be ignored. If no one thought about the anime itself and just went with their "favorite" character. Every thread would instantly degenerate into flame wars.
This is a renai (romance/drama) anime, it doesn't make much sense to think about the story logically. Interpersonal relationships aren't logical. It's all about identifying with the characters in your own way, then presenting your views, which requires a bit of both.

All Emotion = Fanboy/Fangirl
All Intellect = You're not going to understand or like this kind of anime

I agree with you by all means, notice I said "more" brain than heart, or "more" heart than brain. I don't expect the majority of people to be watching a show strictly by feeling nor strictly by logic.
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Old 2007-11-26, 19:48   Link #822
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Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
Watched the Conclave-Mendoi sub of Episode 07....

.....wow.

Never before have I seen mere text crawling across the screen, accompanied only by a voice with absolutely nothing else happening, be so terribly powerful.
I totally agree.... I put off this episode for days but wow, I don't even understand the text, there's no background music, all it is is basically listening to a person talking over the phone with gibbering all over the screen. Many things have surprised me but I just watched this whole sequence with my mouth half-open.
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Old 2007-11-26, 19:59   Link #823
tripperazn
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Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
I totally agree.... I put off this episode for days but wow, I don't even understand the text, there's no background music, all it is is basically listening to a person talking over the phone with gibbering all over the screen. Many things have surprised me but I just watched this whole sequence with my mouth half-open.
You don't have to understand the text, it simply writes out Miyako's lines. Powerful indeed, reminds my strongly of Evangelion.
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Old 2007-11-27, 01:00   Link #824
tabun
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Try closing your eyes during this scene. Miyako's VA is just... wow. I mean, you can feel it. And although I agree on the resemblance to Evangelion, it never reached this degree of intensity for me. If anyone her knows the Novel or, for that matter, the movie Johnny Got His Gun (vocal and video parts also featured in the longer version of Metallica's One), then that would be the closest resemblance I could make out. If Johnny's inner monologue had been typed on screen simultaniously, it might have looked like Miyako's scene.

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Originally Posted by tripperazn
Powerful indeed
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Old 2007-11-27, 01:46   Link #825
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Her obsession with Hirono is sharply contrasted with his indifference of "oh, I stood her up. better apologize later."

I predict that Miyako is gonna go yandere on Hirono's ass.
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Old 2007-11-27, 02:10   Link #826
tabun
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Well, her previous actions would hardly have led Hirono to believe Miyako was interested in anything more serious, would they? Still, after the aforementioned obsessive behaviour (which culminated in that excellent scene), I should like to concur on her going yandere - at least as a possibility. She might also just decide to "vanish" (you do the math). We shall see ^^
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Old 2007-11-27, 23:16   Link #827
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wow just saw ep 8 and I hate Kei even more now. The Chihiro scene spooked me out, I wonder how Renji is gonna deal with that, I think he's gonna disapear from her for a while and probably eventually come back to her

Although I'm a little surprised by how much Hirono seemed to be worrying about Miyako, I thought he just apathetic about her until now. I'm pretty pissed even more now about the deleted messages that could've worked into something good between Miya and hirono emotionally although I bet something will happen so I'll just have to wait and see.
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Old 2007-11-28, 00:21   Link #828
Ascaloth
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Watched the Conclave-Mendoi sub of Episode 8.

The sakuga of this episode fully epitomized what I increasingly feel would be my summary for the Art Direction and Animation sections of my eventual Final Critique for this series; utter visual beauty accompanied by animation inconsistency, respectively. C'mon, SHAFT, you can draw skies that rivals KyoAni's in utter brilliance of sakuga, but your Kei remains static while sitting on Hirono's moving bicycle?! And that's not even factoring in the weird timing for the mouth movements; if you don't have the budget to draw mouth movements correctly, at least take a leaf from KyoAni and copy their "talking-anything-but-the-mouth" technique, please.

Strangely enough, I'm no longer bothered by the Shinbo-WTFness; it's really fitting in very nicely at this point, and I'm more bothered by the lazy animation which crops up every now and then.

And as for the story....after Miyako's gut-wrenching freakout in the previous episode, the Hirono-Miyako-Kei story thread takes a backseat to its usual love-triangle setup. In its place, the Chihiro-Renji thread takes prominence....and how well it does it. If I didn't know better, I would say that the end of the episode was classic KEY/KyoAni unexpected-hammerblow style. Props to minori, and props to SHAFT. That was fantastic, and not least because of the stellar performance of Chihiro's voice actress.

This episode easily scores a 9, the last point forfeited because of the lazy animation issue.

Increasingly, I'm beginning to feel that of all the animation studios out there, SHAFT is becoming the biggest singular competition to Kyoto Animation currently, with all other studios not even close to these two. They've scored a coup over the current golden boy with the superior SZS over the latter's Lucky Star, and their ef ~a tale of memories~ is the only thing that's even close enough to nip at CLANNAD's heels this season. If they solve their lazy animation issue, I think that they'll then become real competition.
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Old 2007-11-28, 00:39   Link #829
grey_moon
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I actually have to mentally prepare myself before watching this series!

Spoiler for thoughts to epi 8:


The interesting thing about memory recall is that they recently found the booze actually aids it. Woo hoo I was right when I went to all my lessons drunk in uni . But from what I gather it is more efficient in aiding the recall of emotionally impacting memories. So if you try to get drunk to forget being dumped, then actually you are doing the reverse!

I can't find the link to it, but I found one where it says that booze aids the growth of brain cells, so maybe she should drink more

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4496727.stm
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Old 2007-11-28, 00:58   Link #830
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Incidentally to people watching episode 8 now, please don't forget to watch to the very end of the episode (i.e. after the credits). I'm noticing a lot of people haven't commented on that (or rather are making comments that lead me to believe that they missed it), which makes me think that maybe people are just stopping after the ED comes on.
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Old 2007-11-28, 01:18   Link #831
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Spoiler for Ep8:
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Old 2007-11-28, 01:20   Link #832
tabun
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Not too much to add here, the two of you said it already. Although I must disagree with the animation issue; the very unique art of the series makes up for the lack of animation quality en detail, if I may say so. This may be one of the few shows where valuing screenplay over animation quality itself actually works out - and how well it does! They just manage to support every situation with an appropriate visual execution, it's almost frighteningly well done.

After the very intense scene of Miyako in the last episode and the confrontation with Kei in this one, her finding relief (if only partially in tears) was calming me down a bit (beautiful scene btw).

Now, as for Chihiro - after all, I found that scream in itself to be equally intense to Miyako's scene in ep.07, but sharper in a way. Yet contrary to Miyako, Chihiro's situation cannot be resolved with likely relative ease. It also makes me wonder how many times in the period since her accident she has had such a breakdown, as Himura seems to be quite knowledgeable of her limits in this regard. how can a twelve-year old stand this pressure? I expect some sort of major changing event in the next few episodes, and if it's only an attempted suicide. This experience must have some sort of catalytic effect, no?

Alas, I am finished for now - back to waiting. I concur with this episode being a 9, with the show as a whole having worked it's place into my all-time favourites. It will not be forgotten, to be sure!

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Incidentally to people watching episode 8 now, please don't forget to watch to the very end of the episode (i.e. after the credits). I'm noticing a lot of people haven't commented on that (or rather are making comments that lead me to believe that they missed it), which makes me think that maybe people are just stopping after the ED comes on.
Indeed, a noteworthy hint! I had mostly mistaken these scenes as some sort of preview. Watch them!
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Old 2007-11-28, 01:27   Link #833
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Spoiler for The Final Scene in case you missed it:


Perhaps the most intriguing part of this ep, IMO is the opening shower scene. Monochromatic fanservice aside, Kei is clearly trying to wash away her guilt from the cell phone accident. Yet, she surprises me when she pulls what is probably the cruelest trick so far in the series. Just how does she feel about tricking Miyako and Hirono like that anyway? Even when her relationship with Hirono is progressing with him offering to spend more time with her due to their injuries, she still looks very unsure about her methods.

At least Miyako has taken a step away from the yandere direction, even though she isn't prominent here.

ChihiroxRenji once again climaxes with one of her offers, nothing really noteworthy IMO. The novel's symbolism is insightful as usual.

The real highlight of their arc is Himura's underhanded tactics here. He says he tried to wake her several times, but doesn't show any surprise when Renji wakes her with a single word. It's pretty clear from the way he obstructs Chihiro's rememberance of Renji and saying "it might be too late already" that he doesn't approve and now he's finally proactively stopping the relationship. At least that's my take on what transpired.

Is it just me or is the artistry of this series getting better and better? It was already a fairly deep and well done work, but damn...
Kei's mouth repeating the same 2 frames while delivering a line kinda detracts from it though...animation might actually be getting worse.
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Old 2007-11-28, 01:42   Link #834
Kaoru Chujo
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Enjoyable comments about ep8, Ascaloth. It's just a quibble, but the phrase "lazy animation" still bothers me. I know what you're referring to -- and you're right about the inconsistency -- but I think "lazy" isn't quite what's happening.

I wonder if they're trying to make a great show on a small budget by outsourcing and using animation tricks. I'm guessing the problem is that they can't find subcontractors (except for the Vietnamese doing the backgrounds) that they can keep up to par -- with mouth movements for example. That speed-flapping of Hiro's mouth at one point was quite bizarre. But I don't mind the tricks, such as long shots when people are talking. And as I think of it, I don't remember them committing the sin of having faces too far off-model, as I have seen in other shows, even good ones.

I do agree that Shaft is nipping at KyoAni's heels -- or at least Shinbou and company are. And they're doing it with a totally different style, which is great. I'm not going to say anything bad about Lucky Star, though. It was totally different from the AIR/SHnY/Kanon detailed style, but I thought it had strong, consistent, simple (in-house) animation that was very effective where it needed to be -- with facial expressions and hand movements, for example. As for content, I thought that a lot of LS was brilliant, and Zetsubou became a little repetitive for me. But your mileage may vary.

If my interpretation of the end-credits is right, Shaft did Zetsubou in-house, but much of ef, even the main animation, is being done by subcontractors. KyoAni's method seems to be to bet big on a few titles, and pour money into them. If they choose wrong, they're in trouble. (Lucky Star was a bit of an anomaly there, since I think it probably wasn't that expensive to make.) With ef, maybe Shaft is trying to create a great product on slightly too little money.

All in all, however, this show makes me eager to see anything directed by Oonuma Shin. He may be using the techniques and style he learned from Shinbou, but boy is he using them well to tell a great story. Maybe they'll give him more money to work with next time.
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Old 2007-11-28, 01:44   Link #835
tabun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripperazn
Perhaps the most intriguing part of this ep, IMO is the opening shower scene. Monochromatic fanservice aside, Kei is clearly trying to wash away her guilt from the cell phone accident. Yet, she surprises me when she pulls what is probably the cruelest trick so far in the series. Just how does she feel about tricking Miyako and Hirono like that anyway? Even when her relationship with Hirono is progressing with him offering to spend more time with her due to their injuries, she still looks very unsure about her methods.
A nice interpretation of the "guilt" thing! Actually, right before she opens the door, the looks like she's feeling "caught in the act", yet after seeing that isn't the case, the pursues her seemingly relentless course even further. But having her cower behind the closed door shows again her bad conscience. To me, she seems like a cornered animal - she knows it's wrong, but also knows no other way out!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripperazn
Is it just me or is the artistry of this series getting better and better? It was already a fairly deep and well done work, but damn...
From what I gather, most here think this way. The excellence in this regard is hardly deniable!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo
With ef, maybe Shaft is trying to create a great product on slightly too little money.

All in all, however, this show makes me eager to see anything directed by Oonuma Shin. He may be using the techniques and style he learned from Shinbou, but boy is he using them well to tell a great story. Maybe they'll give him more money to work with next time.
Quite successful, if I may say so! And yes, I'd love to see more shows with this kind of direction. May I ask you to point me in the direction of similar works?
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Old 2007-11-28, 02:25   Link #836
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Thanks, Kaoru.

Personally I'm sure it's exactly how you described, their trying to make a great show with a limited budget. Even so though, I can't help but compare them to a studio which was in almost the same situation as them several years ago. A relatively-unknown studio in animation nowhere-land, having only a small office and a small team, and probably just as limited an animation budget....yet the same company came up with the visually brilliant AND consistent AIR (TV). And KyoAni's first KEY adaptation came at a time before they enjoyed the inflow of megabucks from the Haruhi phenomenon, which is why I've been using it as a benchmark for this. The way I see it, if KyoAni can do it, nobody else has an excuse to be less than consistent. Nobody. And I'm not even asking for visual brilliance, there.

You are probably right though, that the fact that apparently most of the animation is being done by subcontractors may have an effect on that (isn't outsourcing just the most wonderful thing? ). Like you, I would also like to see what Oonuma Shin can come up with next, as long as he doesn't overuse the Shinbo-WTFness like he did the first two episodes.
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Old 2007-11-28, 02:43   Link #837
grey_moon
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@tripperazn - Nice point about Himura as it did niggle me how me made a point about how she remembered him and not Renji. I wonder who he is? I think he is the person who knocked Chihiro over...
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Old 2007-11-28, 02:53   Link #838
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Quote:
A relatively-unknown studio in animation nowhere-land, having only a small office and a small team, and probably just as limited an animation budget....yet the same company came up with the visually brilliant AND consistent AIR (TV).
I doubt if we can conclusively say anything about budgets. With AIR, I'd wager that the sponsors/production partners offered some solid financing, given how popular the original game was (probably the biggest phenomenon in the bishoujo game world prior to Fate/Stay Night).
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Old 2007-11-28, 03:00   Link #839
tabun
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Leaving the current discussion aside, due to the lack of art from the show in this thread (not to offend anyone who presented anything here!), I have decided to occupy myself with this a bit. Here's the first signature I made (maybe more to come, dunno), it's a freebie.



Edit:


Another one, although I'm not too happy with the colours... oh well ^^
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Old 2007-11-28, 03:27   Link #840
Kaoru Chujo
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Originally Posted by tabun View Post
A nice interpretation of the "guilt" thing! Actually, right before she opens the door, the looks like she's feeling "caught in the act", yet after seeing that isn't the case, the pursues her seemingly relentless course even further. But having her cower behind the closed door shows again her bad conscience. To me, she seems like a cornered animal - she knows it's wrong, but also knows no other way out!...I'd love to see more shows with this kind of direction. May I ask you to point me in the direction of similar works?
Also nicely described. I thought the scenes with Kei before and after her scene at the door were emotionally complex.

As for other things Oonuma Shin has done, there aren't many. I was thinking of future work. The only things he has actually been main director of are the Negima!? spring and summer OVAs, which I found very good entertainment, but which aren't at the level of seriousness of ef.

大沼心 Oonuma Shin did key animation work on shows like Handmaid May, Hellsing, and Pita Ten. He became an episode director with Futatsu no Spica (ep09) and Wind - A Breath of Heart (ep10). On Akiyuki Shinbou's Tsukuyomi Moon Phase he did the storyboard and direction for episode one, and did a couple of the EDs. On PaniPoni Dash, he was "series director" under Shinbou, and directed three eps (1, 8, 16) and storyboarded another (7). On Negima!?, he was called "chief director," with Shinbou as "director," and directed four episodes (1, 14, 19, 26) and storyboarded 1, 19, and 26. You can see him gradually getting more and more responsibility.

There's an interesting interview with him where he says that he likes "moe" games and when this one was offered to Shaft, he jumped up and said "I'll do it!" Once they got Shinkai Makoto to do the preview movie, it helped determine that the beauty of the images would be important. As for the script, he said that gamers, including him, think of the game as an absolute and don't like seeing it messed with in an anime. He tried to make sure that the atmosphere of the anime was similar to that of the game, even though it broadens the game's world.
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characters/seiyuus: Sailor Moon Crystal | Akatsuki no Yona | Amagi Brilliant Park | Coffin-Princess Chaika | Cross Ange | Daitoshokan no Hitsujikai | Danna ga Nani ga Itteru | Denkigai no Honya-san | Donten ni Warau | Fate/Stay Night UBW | Le Fruit de la Grisaia | Gugure! Kokkuri-san | Inou Battle wa Nichijou-kei no Naka de | Madan no Ou to Vanadis | Orenchi no Furo Jijou | Seven Deadly Sins | Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso | Shirobako | Sora no Method | Tribe Cool Crew | Trinity Seven | Ushinawareta Mirai o Motomete | Wixoss
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