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Old 2007-12-06, 05:30   Link #1021
Liingo
Love Hina?
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
All you guys saying "what goes around comes around", "karma", "backfire", "she deserves it" etc. The framing of Hiro's, Miyako's, Kei's characters exclusively on their romantic interactions with each other. All of you MiyaHiro fanboys (girls too? Iunno) out there hate Kei because she prevented them from meeting when Miyako was in her hour of greatest need. You feel triumphant as it seems to you Miyako and Hiro overcome all these obstacles to finally get together and firmly lay a hand across Kei's treacherous face. What you don't realize is that Miyako and Hiro got together because of, not in spite of, Kei's actions.
I'm not sure about the others, but personally, my 'what comes around goes around' comment earlier was predominantly for Kei's message at the door, and what was implied by what she was wearing at the time to Miyako. If anything Kei has my sympathy as what happened to her is something that can't be denied, that Miya is sleeping with Hiro unlike the implied and unspoken statement that Kei was trying to convey.

Quote:
So what you are saying by calling on karma etc. is that what Kei should have done, was leave the cell phone alone. Then the universe would bless her because Hiro would therefore be disgusted by Miyako's clingy brokenness and smother himself in Kei's lesser bosum. And Miyako would be left a joyless shell, punished for wanting too much. It seems to me you're too stupid to see you're hating Kei at the expense of Miyako's happiness.
Not quite. It's pointless to speculate on what may have happened if Hiro had listened to those messages. Yes one option would be the one that you've pointed out, but another is that he'd be running to Miyako as fast as he could.

Perhaprs you are correct in your last statement, but does that not apply to you also as in your scenario, Miyako is left shattered while Kei is loved?
Quote:
Guilt's not a great reason to fall in love, is it? Miyako needs to present herself as somebody who can take care of herself. Hiro's focus, and one of Miyako's reasons for respecting Hiro, is his career as a mangaka. He can't exactly work on that if he has to spend all his time "looking only at Miyako". I agree with grey_moon that Miyako was setting herself up with that promise, on even more levels than simply the Kei x Hiro sibling relationship. I'm gonna have to wait to see how their relationship develops before I can really believe a 'happily ever after'. As Miyako bringing the issue up again (after the sex, no less) shows, it actually still does 'matter'.
Could that statment not be read as only looking at Miyako and not other women in the romantic sense? Yes if you take it literally, then Hiro is chained to her without being able to do anything, but somehow I don't think that's what was supposed to be read from her words.

I'm not surprised that it matters to her. This is the child that was abandoned by her parents and also nearly abandoned by Hiro (in her view) as well. It's her way to reassure herself that she's not going to get abandoned again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
But that "never look at another woman" is a flag for troubles if I ever heard one. I just hope there are too few episodes left to get into that, lol.
Are there 3 or 4 episodes left? It might be possible to introduce problems in their relationship if it's 13 episodes long, but i don't see there being enough time to properly wrap up the other relationships as well as have these complications with only 3 episodes to go.

Last edited by Liingo; 2007-12-06 at 06:52. Reason: typos
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Old 2007-12-06, 05:35   Link #1022
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You really think Hiro would've run away if he found out that Miyako went through a mental breakdown through those messages?

Yeah, I'd like to see that happen. Hiro seems like that kind of guy.
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Old 2007-12-06, 05:40   Link #1023
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
To whom are you speaking, specifically?

I thought the premise of your argumentation previously was that one shouldn't choose one heroine's point of view to idolize over the other (hence your "righteous indignation" at the HiroXMiyako 'shippers). In fact, though, you're demonstrating a no-less-obvious inability to balance the two points of view, because you insist that Kei is equally worthy of both praise and sympathy in spite of it all, and that Miyako's actions are equally worth of both fear and loathing. This in spite of the fact that the show itself is not presenting them equally in every context (perhaps you're arguing that the show itself is biased?). In other words, I no longer believe that you're as much in favour of a balanced perspective on the story the writers intend as you once claimed. You're preaching a doctrine that is no more balanced and true to the show than any 'shipper's point of view. And you have the arrogance to tell everyone why they're wrong and you're right.

And, to my original question, you're once again painting everyone who disagrees with you as being biased, close-minded and ignorant, where I see very little posting in this thread to warrant it. Not to mention that you're telling them why they feel the way they do ("[You] hate Kei because she prevented them from meeting when Miyako was in her hour of greatest need"), only to just as quickly strike down that very perspective ("It seems to me you're too stupid to see you're hating Kei at the expense of Miyako's happiness.") Isn't that what a straw man argument is all about? With arguments like this, no wonder you doubt that you'll convince anyone.

I get that you're pissed that people are gloating at Kei's "demise" but, frankly, you're acting like a sore loser, whether you mean to or not. And when you aim your posts at a large, vaguely-defined group, people who might otherwise agree with you (at least in part) will get annoyed.

No straw man here. I pointed out specifically the statements I was attacking: "what goes around comes around", "karma", actions "backfiring", "deserved" punishment.

I don't consider myself to be on the 'losing team' because I acknowledged that Miyako was going to get Hiro from pretty much the start. I do feel a bit sore because the show is currently portraying a MiyaHiro relationship I consider incomplete while deliberately making Kei suffer in a way that would encourage MiyaHiro fanboyism (edit: in light of Liingo's post above, yes I can see the narrative irony, I guess. I still disapprove overall). I'm not going to be defending Kei all that ardently at this point because I can see that deliberation, and will rather be looking to the show to demonstrate some resolution for MiyaHiro which I can be satisfied with (in contrast to most other people here, who consider their development essentially concluded at this point).

My point really is that theirs (yours?) is a hollow victory. Yes, Kei has been slapped in the face with the reality of MiyaHiro. She can start moving on. This fact, however, does not in any way mean that MiyaHiro are done and now a perfect happy couple that everybody can just "awwww" over. There is still more to be said there (by god I hope so). Everybody going "Yes! Miyako wins!" just looks ridiculous in my opinion. Kei was barely in the running in the first place.

Back on defining who I'm speaking to, well I tried (albeit half-assedly). But I'm not all that interested in pandering to people who partly agree with me anyway. :P

And true, it was that excessive romanticism which I found sickening. You can find that stuff in real life. What I'm looking for in fiction is stuff that is actually romantic.

edit again: and in response to AvatarST, well, I see Hiro as the kind of guy who would accept the first girl who confessed to him. 'cause he's nice, y'know.

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2007-12-06 at 05:51.
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Old 2007-12-06, 05:45   Link #1024
tabun
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Another great episode, and while I'm doing the catch-up on this thread (which I would likce to call enjoyable, but which is a hassle in thruth ), I want to write down my first impressions.

If I was only thinking before that Chihiro represented her perceived self-image she read of in her diary, I am most certain she does now. This is a very difficult situation, thus the sentence at the very end of the show "Look for me, and bring me back with you". Her situation was difficult before, but now it's really painful. And it becomes obvious that she improved her memory by re-writing certain aspects, such as a confession. How much more of her written down memory is altered then, too? damn, this show is just getting better and better.

I found the scene with Hiro and Miyako on the beach very touching, and as I must add, the visualisation again exceeded my (rightfully high) expectations. Brilliantly done! Still, as for Kei finding the two of them in bed, it's rather harsh to say "what comes around comes around" (took a glimpse at the last posting). There is no such thing as justice or even odds in love, and although Kei may have done a horrible thing before, gloating about her finding the two in the exact same situation she pretended in front of Miyako is not just, it's not fair and it certainly is not deserved. (That being said, I'll still root for the momentarily obvious pairings )

So, back to reading - although finding something to add that hasn't been said already may be quite tough.
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Old 2007-12-06, 05:56   Link #1025
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
edit again: and in response to AvatarST, well, I see Hiro as the kind of guy who would accept the first girl who confessed to him. 'cause he's nice, y'know.
Yeah, maybe. But wouldn't he end up accepting Miyako anyway, then? Because Kei wasn't gonna confess as long as she was in denial.

Not that the point in my post was a "who would win" thing anyway. What I was trying to say is that, as soon as Hiro found out that Miyako had broken down, he'd have tried to find her to make sure she's ok, not run away.
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Old 2007-12-06, 06:00   Link #1026
grey_moon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tabun View Post
If I was only thinking before that Chihiro represented her perceived self-image she read of in her diary, I am most certain she does now. This is a very difficult situation, thus the sentence at the very end of the show "Look for me, and bring me back with you". Her situation was difficult before, but now it's really painful. And it becomes obvious that she improved her memory by re-writing certain aspects, such as a confession. How much more of her written down memory is altered then, too? damn, this show is just getting better and better.
The diary only contains summaries, so in essence I believe that Chihiro's interpretation of her relationship has a powerful meaning. Renji atm in my impression is too preoccupied with the Dango that he is being fed by Yu and his own over analysis of Chihiro's story. Instead of getting his knickers in a twist over if the previous Chihiro dead or not, he should realise the most important thing which is Chihiro is right there and in front of him and that even though her memories reset, she still wants to build up a relationship with him. For me that was one of the most profound moments in the show, that her love for him can survive a memory reset, but lets see how reading the story, Renji and Yu can do next to upset me
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Old 2007-12-06, 06:16   Link #1027
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AvatarST View Post
Yeah, maybe. But wouldn't he end up accepting Miyako anyway, then? Because Kei wasn't gonna confess as long as she was in denial.

Not that the point in my post was a "who would win" thing anyway. What I was trying to say is that, as soon as Hiro found out that Miyako had broken down, he'd have tried to find her to make sure she's ok, not run away.
Yeah, but that would be entirely unrelated to any Miyako x Hiro romantic interactions, and could possibly stay that way. If Miyako didn't make a move on Hiro the moment they had 'made up', she would be boxed into a 'helpless person who needs support' role and no longer a romantic interest. If she did make a move on Hiro, though, that would set a precedent in their relationship where she was completely emotionally dependant on him but not the other way around, which isn't a very comfortable or stable or attractive situation. Hiro might have been able to retain some romantic interest in that situation initially, but after he got used to the omg!sex and omg!girlfriend he would have to fight to maintain interest.

The reason I brought it up in the first place, though, was I was asking what people thought Kei should have done? I mean we, as the audience, know she doesn't have a chance--the story's written that way. But if you guys were saying that Kei should have just done nothing and 'lost honourably', aren't you expecting too much? I'm saying that given that you guys would have a better impression of Kei had she not deleted the messages, how would you have liked the story to turn out if that had been the case? If you would support MiyaHiro regardless, what advantages would Kei have for acting according to your judgement?

And the towel bit too: think about it. Does it really make a difference, the impression from somebody naked in a towel and somebody wet and dishevelled from quickly putting on some clothes?
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Old 2007-12-06, 06:35   Link #1028
SuperKnuckles
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It's bad enough if you see a girl in a house occupied by a guy. Even in real life, I learned in experience that it's usually sex or something like it. People aren't paranoid about it for no reason.
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Old 2007-12-06, 08:50   Link #1029
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling
Guilt's not a great reason to fall in love, is it? Miyako needs to present herself as somebody who can take care of herself. Hiro's focus, and one of Miyako's reasons for respecting Hiro, is his career as a mangaka. He can't exactly work on that if he has to spend all his time "looking only at Miyako". I agree with grey_moon that Miyako was setting herself up with that promise, on even more levels than simply the Kei x Hiro sibling relationship. I'm gonna have to wait to see how their relationship develops before I can really believe a 'happily ever after'.
She has never presented herself as anything less in front of Hiro though, nor do i consider her to be incapable of looking after herself. You are taking her words far too literally, as she is obviously not demanding of him to sit in a corner staring at her all day long. Nor would Hiro working on manga produce anything of sort she is afraid of. It is just a romanticist way of her asking to be the first person in his heart. It is more about reassuring herself than anything else, nor is it anything unreasonable to ask. It should be a given anyways when you are going out with someone, so i am afraid i don't see the impending doom in her words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
No straw man here. I pointed out specifically the statements I was attacking: "what goes around comes around", "karma", actions "backfiring", "deserved" punishment.

I don't consider myself to be on the 'losing team' because I acknowledged that Miyako was going to get Hiro from pretty much the start. I do feel a bit sore because the show is currently portraying a MiyaHiro relationship I consider incomplete while deliberately making Kei suffer in a way that would encourage MiyaHiro fanboyism (edit: in light of Liingo's post above, yes I can see the narrative irony, I guess. I still disapprove overall). I'm not going to be defending Kei all that ardently at this point because I can see that deliberation, and will rather be looking to the show to demonstrate some resolution for MiyaHiro which I can be satisfied with (in contrast to most other people here, who consider their development essentially concluded at this point).
I don't quite think acknowledging that Miyako is going to win from the start puts anyone outside of the "losing/winning team". Whether you intend to or not, your posts and point of view seem pro-Kei with the subtlety of a sledgehammer, and in this situation complaining about shallow fanboyism and the wrongtm point of view people are adapting to the situation leaves the impression of pot calling the kettle black.

You are demanding equality(?) where there is none, and can't be simply because we have different people in different situations, and the show has never been implying otherwise. You are demanding from people to feel sympathy for Kei and Apathy towards Miyako for reasons of your own (that end up favoring Kei as far as i can tell), and claiming it to be the balanced point of view at things, and everybody else to be shallow and biased at their perspective. The fact you are referring to seemingly everyone with a different viewpoint from yours and labeling it as wrong is bound to leave people annoyed. Calling vaguely everyone wrong is an easy accusation to make, but that alone doesn't make your position any more credible either.

Quote:
My point really is that theirs (yours?) is a hollow victory. Yes, Kei has been slapped in the face with the reality of MiyaHiro. She can start moving on. This fact, however, does not in any way mean that MiyaHiro are done and now a perfect happy couple that everybody can just "awwww" over. There is still more to be said there (by god I hope so). Everybody going "Yes! Miyako wins!" just looks ridiculous in my opinion. Kei was barely in the running in the first place.
Now this i can agree with to a degree (though this is hardly a "victory", since there was never much of a competition) - there is bound to be some final hurdle for the relationship to step over, and issues with Kei will demand resolution as well, that may possibly stir something up between Hiro and Miyako for a while. This was not the point you were making earlier though.
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Old 2007-12-06, 09:48   Link #1030
Sol Falling
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I'm not quite sure I understand. Kindly point out the contradictions in the allegedly seperate points I was making.

(And I'm not quite sure where I 'demanded apathy for Miyako'. I'm not even all that fond of Kei as a character; my stance is more "anti-anti-Kei" than "pro-Kei". And now I'll try putting my point another way: I'm bewildered as to how people can percieve Kei walking in on naked peoples as helping MiyaHiro in any manner. From the triumphant behaviour of some people, though, I can only assume that they are either too stupid to realize this or Kei-hating to the degree that they even consider MiyaHiro as just a tool to bring Kei pain.)
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Old 2007-12-06, 11:24   Link #1031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I can only assume that they are either too stupid to realize this or Kei-hating to the degree that they even consider MiyaHiro as just a tool to bring Kei pain.)
I can only assume that you're either too arrogant to realize this is an unfair accusation, or deluded to the degree that you even consider other posters as just a tool to inflate your own ego. What nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
My point really is that theirs (yours?) is a hollow victory. [...] But I'm not all that interested in pandering to people who partly agree with me anyway. :P
I see what you did there. "If they're not with us, they're against us", eh? You'd do that even after the long conversation we had last week? Or is being genuinely ignorant of to whom you're speaking and painting everyone with a broad stroke your specialty?

If you want this discussion to continue, you need to adjust your tone. You are not god's gift to anime insight. And you are not being clever by subtly trying to turn it on those arguing against you who, for the most part, aren't even the "they" you're so put off by. It doesn't even matter what you're arguing for or against; as demonstrated by our last lengthy conversation, I agree with many of your arguments. But now, you seem to be unable to express them without attacking those who hold a contrary view, and I find that completely unacceptable.

You said that you'd just "indulge yourself" and leave it at that. Maybe that's a good idea. When you can treat the rest of the forum, including those you disagree with, as civilized equals, and not inferior fanboys "apparently too stupid to see the truth", then we'll talk.
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Old 2007-12-06, 12:13   Link #1032
Sun Shine
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Eh? ARen't some people just taking this a bit too seriously and being petty over it.

I was always for the KeiHiro relationship because I admire more aspects of Kei's characteristics. I think she is misunderstood and dealt with things wrongly albeit she was ushed into doing so. MiyaHiro is gonna have a bumpy relationship thats for sure, thats if it lasts, Miya needs Hiro to certify her existance, a bit like with Chihiro and Renji.

AT the moment my feelings are Hiro is with Miya out of pity and something fresh rather than love.
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Old 2007-12-06, 12:18   Link #1033
grey_moon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
It is just a romanticist way of her asking to be the first person in his heart. It is more about reassuring herself than anything else, nor is it anything unreasonable to ask. It should be a given anyways when you are going out with someone, so i am afraid i don't see the impending doom in her words.
The main issue with Miyako and this phrase is that she has shown she is extremely fragile with relationships. Normally if I saw someone say something like that I would think they are being romantic, but with Miyako I'm not too sure.

ATM I'm not too sure has Miyako actually moved on and started dealing with her problem or is she just using Hiro as a crutch. If she has just substituted Hiro for what she idealises as her parents love, then if Hiro doesn't meet that idealism, would she have another melt down?

I would actually like for Hiro and Miyako to build up a healthy relationship where they are able to support and grow with each other, but so far there is nothing to indicate that is the case. I think we need a few more episodes and some more drama to see if their relationship is based on that, or them just filling some basic need*.

I hope that camera guy can help Kei get over her infatuation and also be able to deal with relationships in a more healthy fashion.

*To quantify what I mean by basic need; I would say Miyako wants to be loved and not deserted and Hiro.... Well I know he says that Miyako makes him feel at ease, but I know he just wants to get his end away
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Old 2007-12-06, 12:30   Link #1034
Klashikari
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I must admit i'm quite surprised of some "theories" about Miya/Hiro match, because of the mere "breakdown".

I think it would be quite better to actually watch back the episodes of ef, with the hints of strong feelings then romantic ones between both of them.
Miyako didn't harbor any distress nor attempt to fill her emptyness just because Hiro was around.

On the other hand, Hiro has shown various and obvious hints of attraction (which were absolutely not physically related) towards Miyako, especially the gigant "i found my color".

Miyako didn't "get" Hiro with any pity and such, and she didn't use her predicament to get him either. In the same way, Miyako just broke down of a possible way to re-experiment what she suffered from her childhood.
Therefore, I'm wondering where the relationship is actually "not healthy" and whatsoever. Just an opinion as any other, but It isn't a problem of "who is deserving who", but rather "who is best suited for who".
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Old 2007-12-06, 12:59   Link #1035
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Selfish/stupid or whatnot, I'll take "who is deserving who" over "who is best suited for who" any day.

Kei is relieving her feelings of jealousy from her childhood, Miyako will probably have some accident at some point in the future. As for Miyako's feelings, she just doesn't see anything besides Hiro. None of them really love him, particularly Kei. Just my take on it...
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Old 2007-12-06, 13:07   Link #1036
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
Nostalgic feelings?
It's pretty solid what end we would get now considering the amount of episodes left...i dont think there will be much more events left that could surprise us - hiro and miyako is pretty much set into stone.
now we have to see how kyosuke get kei back onto her feet (which is probably what the remaining eps will be about).
I would hate for the story to go linear now, if I can pratically predict what will happen, then for me, I would feel uneasy about the pace of the anime and found it cliche even though I want it to surprise me.
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Old 2007-12-06, 13:22   Link #1037
guuchan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tabun View Post
This is a very difficult situation, thus the sentence at the very end of the show "Look for me, and bring me back with you".
That's Kei's voice, though. Usually the line said in preview is abstract and doesn't neccessarily apply to the speaker her/himself, but this time it's pretty straightforward, plus she specifically said "watashi" ("me").
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Old 2007-12-06, 13:32   Link #1038
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
Selfish/stupid or whatnot, I'll take "who is deserving who" over "who is best suited for who" any day.

Kei is relieving her feelings of jealousy from her childhood, Miyako will probably have some accident at some point in the future. As for Miyako's feelings, she just doesn't see anything besides Hiro. None of them really love him, particularly Kei. Just my take on it...
Lol...you make Hiro seem like a poor fellow for acquiring "love" interests

Im pretty sure kei's love for him is genuine but for miyako im taking grey_moon's point of view for it. Here we have a girl who is totally unstable. Hopefully being accepted by Hiro means that she can move of with her life. While i still think that Hiro's love for her is artificial and rather forced (seriously...just where is the lead up to all that?) miyako is totally dependent on him as a support pillar. maybe this will crumble?

Have no idea what the essays at the top mean - so i wont even bother commenting

I dont really see how well deserved what kei saw was seen as i just think it is cruel - same with what she did to miyako. both sides just even each other out i guess
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Old 2007-12-06, 16:03   Link #1039
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i don't usually post alot on forums since i love reading people's opinions and um..arguments hehe... but i just have to say something this time in regards to Hiro's affections for Miyako, i don't understand how some of you can say that Hiro's feelings for Miyako are forced and out of pity since he is the one who is totally oblivious to Miyako's past, not only that, but he also doesnt know about her mentle breakdown and her 99 calls on his phone, (since it was thankfully deleted by Kei), he even mentions about her parents once in awhile like they're still one whole happy family. I mean, how can you pity someone without even knowing about that person's past or tragic experiences, its not like Miyako actually broke down and started babbling about her past in front of Hiro, she simply hid her unstabilty and emptyness in front of Hiro and replace it with her cheerful self. If you look at Hiro's POV, there is nothing much to pity Miyako on.

with that said, i feel much better, but i'm loving this show so far not only cause of the characters but also the unique artworks, its fantastic, ohhh i also something tho, it might not mean much at all but I notice that whenever Hiro and Miyako talks, her image is always reflected in Hiro's eyes, it doesnt happen when he talks to other characters.. i think in anime it might mean something..... :P
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Old 2007-12-06, 16:19   Link #1040
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I can only assume that you're either too arrogant to realize this is an unfair accusation, or deluded to the degree that you even consider other posters as just a tool to inflate your own ego. What nonsense.

If you want this discussion to continue, you need to adjust your tone. You are not god's gift to anime insight. And you are not being clever by subtly trying to turn it on those arguing against you who, for the most part, aren't even the "they" you're so put off by. It doesn't even matter what you're arguing for or against; as demonstrated by our last lengthy conversation, I agree with many of your arguments. But now, you seem to be unable to express them without attacking those who hold a contrary view, and I find that completely unacceptable.

You said that you'd just "indulge yourself" and leave it at that. Maybe that's a good idea. When you can treat the rest of the forum, including those you disagree with, as civilized equals, and not inferior fanboys "apparently too stupid to see the truth", then we'll talk.
wait wait wait (matte matte matte!)! Man you're good. Got me again. You actually had me believing that I'm arrogant for a while there.

I'd prefer to frame it as "believing in what I say, and passionately defending it". That is my right just as it is anybody else's. Indeed! Please defend yourselfs. Rather than just having people who 'largely agree' with my points nitpick at me, I'd rather be ranting at people who disagree completely.

Anyway, I'm sorry I dipped into name-calling, so, just for you, relentlessflame, I'll couch that generalization you so took offense to in more explicit terms.

I can concieve two motivations for a person gloating in triump over the end of episode 9. Follows:

1. They hold the two (in my opinion baseless) beliefs that a) Kei's romantic interest in Hiro is a credible threat to a Miyako x Hiro relationship; and b) Kei seeing Miyako and Hiro nakkie together somehow eliminates that romantic interest. This is a pro-MiyaHiro motivation, in that they believe that Kei seeing what she did will help consolidate their recent hookup.

2. They harbour malice towards Kei in their hearts, which is irrelevent or secondary to their desire to see Hirono and Miyako happy together. This I find somewhat bizzare; isn't the primary motive for disliking Kei, believing that Miyako and Hirono are perfect together? But if Kei's actions in past episodes have somehow engendered a hate that has become a viewer's central focus in that arc, well, I guess I can also see why they want Kei to run screaming out of an apartment and trip facefirst into asphault.

So that's my speculation. I can only refer people to my (and certainly other people's) much earlier posts in this thread if somebody feels that Kei needs and deserves to be punished somehow in a manner which has no bearing on Miyako and Hiro's relationship at all. As for the former case, I want to reassure people that Miyako x Hiro has been etched into the skies by the (narrative) gods, that Kei has another romantic interest anyway, that Miyako and Hiro are so perfect for each other that Hiro would never, ever abandon Miyako for Kei. Completely serious. It's impossible. Trust me, I know.

And I'd also like to say that I am completely open to suggestions for alternate motivations for celebrating Kei's misery. If somebody could suggest one that involves neither being pro-MiyaHiro nor anti-Kei, why, then I'd gladly rescind my outrage and call them 'teacher'.

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2007-12-06 at 16:30.
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