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Old 2007-12-16, 19:04   Link #1221
Kaoru Chujo
Kuno Misaki
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by hadora View Post
...A lot of the comments I've read in 2ch and some blogs from people who were turned off by the show said that the emotions felt too "fake" for them, too scripted. Well it's interesting to read all these opinions and see the usual strife in the japanese fandom.
I think there's something in this, even though I don't share the feeling. In a lot of anime, I think the acting (like everything else) is not so much naturalistic or realistic as iconic, trying to get across some type of thing rather than an individual thing. In fact, I personally think live action is better for naturalism and anime is better for this kind of iconic presentation.

I don't actually see ef as being as much that way as a lot of shows. But perhaps people get used to a certain style of acting and think of that as naturalistic. In any case, ef is not a simple naturalistic show. I think of it as bigger than that, but some people may not be able to take the style seriously. Too bad for them.

In general, I do respect Japanese fandom more than a lot of people. 2channel is a huge arena with many different points of view and approaches to anime in it. And even the posters I don't think much of do know their anime. And of course they hear the Japanese better than I do.
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Kuno Misaki 久野美咲 age 21. 2009 - King of Thorn (Alie). 2010 - Oreimo (Bridget). 2012 - Black Rock Shooter (Hiro). 2013 - Problem children (Melln). Ro-Kyu-Bu! SS (Mimi), Log Horizon (Serara), Galilei Donna (Grande Rosso). 2014 - Noragami (Keiichi), Escha and Logy (Kuu), Zvezda Plot (Hoshimiya Kate/Venera-sama), Wixoss (Tama), Mahouka Koukou (Kasuga Nanami), Flag o Oraretara (Kurumiko), Nanana (Saki), Seven Deadly Sins (Hawk).
Hashihime blog | Twitter @nakanokimi | autumn 2014 previews | autumn 2014 schedule |
characters/seiyuus: Sailor Moon Crystal | Akatsuki no Yona | Amagi Brilliant Park | Coffin-Princess Chaika | Cross Ange | Daitoshokan no Hitsujikai | Danna ga Nani ga Itteru | Denkigai no Honya-san | Donten ni Warau | Fate/Stay Night UBW | Le Fruit de la Grisaia | Gugure! Kokkuri-san | Inou Battle wa Nichijou-kei no Naka de | Madan no Ou to Vanadis | Orenchi no Furo Jijou | Seven Deadly Sins | Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso | Shirobako | Sora no Method | Tribe Cool Crew | Trinity Seven | Ushinawareta Mirai o Motomete | Wixoss
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Old 2007-12-16, 19:57   Link #1222
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hadora View Post
I agree there's some people who judge anime that way but fans in japan aren't as mindless than you think they are and a lot of them don't play eroges anyways, I guess it's a matter of personnal prefference in the end.
I have absolutely no idea how or why you took my comment as a slight of any sort.

Japanese anime DVDs are expensive. That DVD 1 I bought cost me $60, and I'll have spent a little over $220 on the DVDs for this show alone (not including shipping and taxes) by the time it's over. There are some 50 Fall shows airing in Japan -- how do I choose what to buy? I can only buy so many before I'm broke. Not to mention, rather than buying, they (in Japan) could always go rent the DVD whenever they want to watch it (a luxury I personally don't have). It's not a matter of being "mindless" or "judgemental" or what have you -- it's about prioritizing.

People will prioritize purchasing shows from their favourite franchises over others because they want to own it -- they want to have it on their shelf. Unlike here in North America, oftentime those favourite franchises are established before the show even starts to air. This season in particular has a number of popular franchises making an outing, taking away some of that precious available discretionary income. Keeping in mind, of course, that barely a single show gets greenlit these days if it doesn't already have either big-name staff, big-name seiyuu, or a large established audience/fanbase (or, preferably, all of the above). So if you're not a "big name", you've got a tough uphill battle ahead of you. The fact that the show is garnering such praise at least among this audience is a testament to the show's appeal (at least in certain circles), but critical appeal doesn't always translate into sales. And this phenomenon is hardly uniquely Japanese.

That aside, I'm curious on what basis you make the assumption that a lot of the Japanese audience for this anime wouldn't be people who played the game (or would at least be willing to). Airing at 1:30am like this, who else is going to randomly stay up to watch it, and/or what would their motivation be to set their PVRs for "some ero-game show called 'ef'"? Again, this is not a slight or an insult, it's a question of prioritizing. It's simply not the same culture as here in the English-speaking world, where every single show to air has a near-equal potential to be "the next big thing". When the market is saturated with product -- anime, manga, games, light novels -- all competing for the same dollars (or in their case, Yen) some will rise to the top, while others sink. And it doesn't always have much to do with quality.

All that aside, have you purchased your DVD 1 yet? Really, that's all either you or I can do about it, no matter what the Japanese market decides. I say the show's worth it, at least.
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Old 2007-12-16, 22:00   Link #1223
Kresnik
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Actually, after seeing Hidamari Sketch DVD episode, which has some extra frame scene compared to the TV version and the lightning speed frame of SZS, I came into conclusion that:
1. It's not that SHAFT's being very artsy with their productions, but creating such atmosphere in order to conceal their lack of time of producing each and every episode. I might be wrong with this, but this is the impression that I and my friends got.
2. For the amazing speed of SZS frame, I think that they made the viewers unconsciously to be eager to buy the DVD. You can't pause TV, right?
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Old 2007-12-16, 22:13   Link #1224
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kresnik View Post
1. It's not that SHAFT's being very artsy with their productions, but creating such atmosphere in order to conceal their lack of time of producing each and every episode.
One could also argue that finding creative ways of overcoming the limitations and constraints of your craft is being "artsy". And if it subconsciously encourages people to rewatch the show and buy the DVDs, then one might also add "genius". It's been said that most of the things people find unique and interesting about the animation in anime originally actually came from the need to cut costs.
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Old 2007-12-17, 01:39   Link #1225
Kaoru Chujo
Kuno Misaki
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kresnik View Post
Actually, after seeing Hidamari Sketch DVD episode, which has some extra frame scene compared to the TV version and the lightning speed frame of SZS, I came into conclusion that:
1. It's not that SHAFT's being very artsy with their productions, but creating such atmosphere in order to conceal their lack of time of producing each and every episode. I might be wrong with this, but this is the impression that I and my friends got.
2. For the amazing speed of SZS frame, I think that they made the viewers unconsciously to be eager to buy the DVD. You can't pause TV, right?
1. If you don't appreciate the artsiness, fine. But no matter what the reason for it, I guarantee that it is there. I gave a couple of examples in my previous post: "In my opinion, just about every bit of that complex art has an emotional meaning in the story. When we don't see characters' heads when they are talking, it conveys something about the uneasy situation. When we see them on the train platform across a littered field, it is as if they are surrounded with the detritus of a crippled memory. These things give us feelings, if we are open to them, that may not be conscious but that give the story depth...." Sorry for quoting myself.

2. It doesn't make sense to me to say they don't have much time to make the show, then to say the frames go by too fast. To have frames go by so quickly means you have to draw more of them, which costs money and takes time.

But I do think that some of the long shots are partly a way of saving money (and I guess time) in production. And the elaborate backgrounds are in fact probably there partly to distract one's attention from the sometimes simple animation, which takes more time to do than a static background that you can pan to give a feeling of movement.

But to me these are reasons to praise the production rather than criticise it, since I think the effects work.
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Hashihime blog | Twitter @nakanokimi | autumn 2014 previews | autumn 2014 schedule |
characters/seiyuus: Sailor Moon Crystal | Akatsuki no Yona | Amagi Brilliant Park | Coffin-Princess Chaika | Cross Ange | Daitoshokan no Hitsujikai | Danna ga Nani ga Itteru | Denkigai no Honya-san | Donten ni Warau | Fate/Stay Night UBW | Le Fruit de la Grisaia | Gugure! Kokkuri-san | Inou Battle wa Nichijou-kei no Naka de | Madan no Ou to Vanadis | Orenchi no Furo Jijou | Seven Deadly Sins | Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso | Shirobako | Sora no Method | Tribe Cool Crew | Trinity Seven | Ushinawareta Mirai o Motomete | Wixoss
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Old 2007-12-17, 03:30   Link #1226
golthin
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kresnik View Post
1. It's not that SHAFT's being very artsy with their productions, but creating such atmosphere in order to conceal their lack of time of producing each and every episode. I might be wrong with this, but this is the impression that I and my friends got.
That has always been shaft's style, if you watch the remake of Nagima and other Shaft shows they use that a lot. It serves two purposes, make it look "Artsy" and Saves in animation.

Quote:
2. For the amazing speed of SZS frame, I think that they made the viewers unconsciously to be eager to buy the DVD. You can't pause TV, right
If you have a DVR set (like Tivo or from the cable company) you can.
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Old 2007-12-17, 19:21   Link #1227
cyoti
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Or if you watching are it via the internet.
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Old 2007-12-20, 00:35   Link #1228
Zippicus
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Join Date: Oct 2007
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Well this show just continues to impress me. It might just be my favorite show this fall, it's a pretty close race between this and Blue Drop.

Spoiler for Episode 11:
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Old 2007-12-20, 01:13   Link #1229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippicus View Post
Spoiler for Episode 11:
Spoiler:
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Old 2007-12-20, 01:16   Link #1230
changeup
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Ditto here...

They are not going cheap by simple elimination, but rather take it more profoundly. A major plus for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Spoiler:
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Old 2007-12-20, 01:26   Link #1231
Kaoru Chujo
Kuno Misaki
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippicus View Post
Well this show just continues to impress me. It might just be my favorite show this fall, it's a pretty close race between this and Blue Drop....
For me, it's edging out Blue Drop as best show of the year.
Spoiler for ep11:
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Kuno Misaki 久野美咲 age 21. 2009 - King of Thorn (Alie). 2010 - Oreimo (Bridget). 2012 - Black Rock Shooter (Hiro). 2013 - Problem children (Melln). Ro-Kyu-Bu! SS (Mimi), Log Horizon (Serara), Galilei Donna (Grande Rosso). 2014 - Noragami (Keiichi), Escha and Logy (Kuu), Zvezda Plot (Hoshimiya Kate/Venera-sama), Wixoss (Tama), Mahouka Koukou (Kasuga Nanami), Flag o Oraretara (Kurumiko), Nanana (Saki), Seven Deadly Sins (Hawk).
Hashihime blog | Twitter @nakanokimi | autumn 2014 previews | autumn 2014 schedule |
characters/seiyuus: Sailor Moon Crystal | Akatsuki no Yona | Amagi Brilliant Park | Coffin-Princess Chaika | Cross Ange | Daitoshokan no Hitsujikai | Danna ga Nani ga Itteru | Denkigai no Honya-san | Donten ni Warau | Fate/Stay Night UBW | Le Fruit de la Grisaia | Gugure! Kokkuri-san | Inou Battle wa Nichijou-kei no Naka de | Madan no Ou to Vanadis | Orenchi no Furo Jijou | Seven Deadly Sins | Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso | Shirobako | Sora no Method | Tribe Cool Crew | Trinity Seven | Ushinawareta Mirai o Motomete | Wixoss
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Old 2007-12-20, 01:30   Link #1232
changeup
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Yeah, I think you have a similar taste as me. I rank Ef and Blue Drop 1-2 in this season. However, for the whole year, I am not sure these two are the best. Lucky Star, Darker than Black, Xenoglossia and Towards the Terra are also pretty good ones. Anyway, since these two have not ended yet, I might drastically change my opinion after that......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
For me, it's edging out Blue Drop as best show of the year.
Spoiler for ep11:
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Old 2007-12-20, 01:32   Link #1233
zqube
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Spoiler for ep11:
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Old 2007-12-20, 02:17   Link #1234
guuchan
Mou Nakanai~
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zqube View Post
Spoiler for ep11:
Spoiler:
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Old 2007-12-20, 02:17   Link #1235
SuperKnuckles
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This show is perilously edging closer to my personal 'anime of the year' right alongside Denno Coil, Sketchbook, Minami-ke, Gurren Lagann and Code Geass.

I'm beyond sad that the next episode will be the last and possibly last ever for the ef story.

God, Shaft. Season 2. Come on.

PS- It's sort of strange to see Renji jump on the gun like that, but perhaps Yuu is some sort of a crazy mastermind after all.
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Old 2007-12-20, 02:32   Link #1236
changeup
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One thing I really like from this series, is the use of Kanji to show one meaning while the accompanying Kana to show another.

Really an innovative way to use in an anime (as far as I know), although it has been repeatedly used in songs for quite some years......
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Old 2007-12-20, 02:36   Link #1237
NoSanninWa
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AAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaarrrrrrgggghhhhhh!
Episode 11 nearly killed me.

This show is so incredibly intense. The previous episode, 10, had the most horrifically intense 4 minutes and 41 seconds that was never animated. For nearly 5 minutes all they did was count down a timer alternating with a still scene whose coloration slowly altered as the sun set. It was hard to call that animation, but I was on the edge of my seat for all 4:41 of it as I pleaded with the screen for Hiro to say the necessary words to keep Miyako from disappearing from his life forever before the timer reached zero.

Now in this episode, 11, I nearly lost my mind from the romantic turmoil once more. Throughout the date it was eating me up that Chihiro isn't making any precious memories like Renji is. He'll remember how wonderful he felt, but she'll only have cold words on a page. She lost her virginity to him, but will only have a few embarassing written words to tell her how she felt about it.

Then when he read the story, I could barely believe that Chihiro is throwing away all the memories and possibilities for the future that grow out of that past. Chihiro's logic may make sense to her, but Renji won't be able to forget as easily as she can. Even if she forgets him, he will never forget her. Only Chihiro's sadness can disappear that easily.

In other news, did you notice which page Renji caught? The page with the sticker. Is that the page on which Chihiro lost her viginity?! That's a huge OMG!



Also... there is one other thing that Chihiro doesn't understand. She says her reach is 12 years and 13 hours, but she is wrong. If the sheep has someone to pass it more grass, then it can keep eating. If Renji is there to hand her things beyond her own reach, then her reach can go much further. She can touch things beyond her circle with his help. This was already proven to her by his ability to help her write her story. I hope she can extend this lesson to the rest of her life before another 13 hours have passed.



Incidently, it is worth noting that different types of memories are stored in the brain differently. While cases differ based on the exact injury, many people who can no longer keep their long term memories are still capable of learning skills. In this way Chihiro may have become a more skilled writer even though she will not remember the lessons that imparted this skill. Another type of memory is emotion. If she loves someone, that feeling may not go away even if she cannot know why she is missing someone vital. How sad would it be to be in love with someone and not know it? To not know why your heart is feeling pained?
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Old 2007-12-20, 04:20   Link #1238
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by NoSanninWa View Post
How sad would it be to be in love with someone and not know it? To not know why your heart is feeling pained?
And this is why it's a good thing she actually finished her novel, I think. Even with her erased memories, there's still hope that she'll be able to put 2 and 2 together. And I presume that Renji won't give up, even if that means starting over from "the very first page".

Good comments all around. You're right on about the sheep illustration, but actually I think she knows that as well. What this was really about was self-loathing and feeling sorry for Renji (who she feels is suffering because of her illness). What she doesn't realize is that love is sacrificial, and Renji is willing to accept any pain or hardship as long as he can stay with her. She's just been alone and trapped for so long that, right when she finally found a way out, she's afraid that it won't last and wants to let go before it becomes absolutely unbearable... And now, as I just wrote that, I realize -- this is all a massive parallel to what they just told us about Miyako!! The question now is whether or not Renji can say what he needs to say in the "13 hours" before his existance is wiped out from her heart.

...I can't believe I never noticed that obvious and massive parallel before. Damn... Chihiro and Miyako actually have different flavours of the exact same problem! Now I need to rethink what I think is going to happen in the next episode...

This is a great show.
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Old 2007-12-20, 04:29   Link #1239
NoSanninWa
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Personally I doubt that he only has 13 hours to talk to her. It would only be 13 hours if she didn't think about him during that time. It would be really hard to imagine that she could possibly manage to avoid thinking of him for 13 hours, but I'd allow this show that pretention if they want me to believe that. However, I must not disregard the possibility that she intends to sleep for 13 hours straight and go for a total reset.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
...I can't believe I never noticed that obvious and massive parallel before. Damn... Chihiro and Miyako actually have different flavours of the exact same problem! Now I need to rethink what I think is going to happen in the next episode...
Certainly true. Miyako fears disappearing from another's heart while Chihiro fears another disappearing from her own heart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
This is a great show.
This is an amazing show. I'm going to enjoy viewing this from a new perspective when I show it to all my friends.
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Old 2007-12-20, 04:31   Link #1240
Deathkillz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa View Post



Also... there is one other thing that Chihiro doesn't understand. She says her reach is 12 years and 13 hours, but she is wrong. If the sheep has someone to pass it more grass, then it can keep eating. If Renji is there to hand her things beyond her own reach, then her reach can go much further. She can touch things beyond her circle with his help. This was already proven to her by his ability to help her write her story. I hope she can extend this lesson to the rest of her life before another 13 hours have passed.
And when the sheep finishes eating, it is back to square one again. Chihiro maybe able to do more things outside her circle but in the end it all comes down to her forgetting those events ever happened. Even reading about it means nothing if she doesn't have any memories of them. I guess for her, she wants to remember the real renji instead of basing his image on her forgotten thoughts. Tragic case :/

She was able to write a story but then again it depends if the outcome was what she has planned. Unless she had one I would have expected for her to change what she hoped that she would write since she started, which reflected her own thoughts at the time of writing it. Perhaps because she decided to end this, she sought to give it a sad end (whereas on days before such a thing might not have even crossed her mind).
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