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Old 2007-12-29, 12:04   Link #1401
Cytrus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Expectedly, Chihiro and Renji take the spotlight here.

But I found the very last sequence very interesting.
Spoiler for ep 12:
It just speaks to me like that, and I'm not even a practising Christian. (Then again, the writer of ef probably isn't, either.)
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Old 2007-12-29, 13:18   Link #1402
fuzzles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cytrus View Post
Spoiler for ep 12:
That's some interpretation made me think a lot ,but I have to disagree in a sense that I don't see this being a faith anime at all it just seems like it was an added thing to me to make the "angel" girl fit in and give the two a conclusion
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Old 2007-12-29, 13:36   Link #1403
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
But thats exactly how it always was for him, the difference is that the both girls clearly know that now. His view on the relationships didn't have to change for him to grow (i don't find the two relateable (i don't think thats a word) at all). It was never about him choosing one - he was never confused in this aspect, but rather pouring those feelings in to actions - to let others, namely the two girls, know what he feels. He saw Kei as his sister, and he finally made it clear that is all he wants her to be. He saw Miyako as his lover, and he proved that to her. It wasn't about choosing - he had done that a while ago. It was about him taking the extra step towards those choices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guuchan View Post
As for Hiro, he didn't mean he found the color that had been lacking in his world after the triangle between him, Miyako, and Kei was resolved. He already did when he met Miyako, but he just didn't realize/say it till much later. And, for Hiro, there's no such a thing as "choosing" between Miyako and Kei. He never saw Kei as a potential lover since the very beginning. Seeing how dull he is when it comes to that, he never even realized Kei loved him more than a "onii-chan" till Kyosuke laid it out to him. The only thing he needed to have done is as Kyosuke said: helped Kei with her feeling.
hmm...? I'm not quite sure where you guys are getting this from. Although I can get on board with Hiro having little or no prior romantic inclination towards Kei before he got together with Miyako, I'd also contend that Hiro had little or no romantic inclination towards Miyako until she 'made her move', per se, such that she 'got' him only by virtue of being first. But that's still debatable.

What's not debatable, though, are several of Hiro's lines in episode 10. paraphrased from my memory (sorry :P)

In Kyosuke's confrontation scene:
Kyosuke: what is Kei to you? Family? Or a woman?
Hiro: Neither! Kei is Kei. Why must she be one or the other?
Kyosuke: *punch* that's why I said you're half-assed.

In Kei's confrontation scene:
Kei: I always imagined that we would grow up together, always be there for each other, etc. etc. eventually somehow getting together, then we'd have children, etc. etc.
Hiro: yeah, I imagined something like that too.

I mean, you could just say that Hiro was flatout lying in that latter scene (in which case, yeah way to go jackass. So much for helping someone 'deal with their feelings'), and that Hiro's half-assedness was a phone-inned cliche used by Shaft to drum up some tension to resolve the arc with, incongruent with his earlier actions. I personally might even agree with you. But then, show some consistency. If you think Hiro was just lying to Kei's face to make her feel better, then don't be satisfied with their unchanged relationship and Hiro's apparently worthless resolve to clear things up. And if you think that there was no 'half-assedness' conflict to be resolved in the first place, then don't consider episode 10 to have provided any sort of resolution to Hiro's 'missing colour' dillemma either. In any case, you can't just ignore those lines above and go around claiming Hiro was converted from some unfeeling, asexual shell into a passionate lover through a fated encounter with Miyako or something.

edit: with that last line, I'm basically talking about how Hiro got from the Hiro at the start of the series to the Hiro in the epilogue. He had a missing colour and couldn't clearly choose between two girls, before. Afterwards, he found the colour and was with one girl. However, if there wasn't actually any kind of revelation or change involved with getting together with that girl, then what was the trigger for him finding his missing colour? Oh and really, don't just pounce on my alternative explanations for Hiro's romantic statements towards Kei. Try acknowledging them, really thinking about why Hiro said those things and what that means. At first I wasn't going to bring it up since of course you're free to enjoy ef anyway you see fit, including ignoring various parts of the show. However, now that you've brought the issue up for debate and are trying to discredit somebody else's opinion, I'm taking the opportunity to step up.

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2007-12-29 at 13:53.
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Old 2007-12-29, 14:03   Link #1404
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
What's not debatable, though, are several of Hiro's lines in episode 10. paraphrased from my memory (sorry :P)

In Kyosuke's confrontation scene:
Kyosuke: what is Kei to you? Family? Or a woman?
Hiro: Neither! Kei is Kei. Why must she be one or the other?
Kyosuke: *punch* that's why I said you're half-assed.

In Kei's confrontation scene:
Kei: I always imagined that we would grow up together, always be there for each other, etc. etc. eventually somehow getting together, then we'd have children, etc. etc.
Hiro: yeah, I imagined something like that too.
I don't see the problem here. Thats something he had imagined could happen, given their long relationship and history. It doesn't imply actual romantic interest in her however. He might have though thats how things could progress, but it doesn't mean he was actually interested in her romantically at the present point in time. It was a possibility that at some point in future it could have changed to that, but at the present his feelings for Kei are limited to "sister". "Kei is Kei. why must she be one or the other?"

One could argue that his "half-assedness" was overplayed here, but i much rather would say it was somewhat out of place in the first place - he was being consistent with Kei, he showed no romantic interest in her and apparently didn't think she had either, before it hit him on the head. You may not like it, but thats the extent of his relationship with Kei - someone whom he has known since forever, and a person he cares about ... as a sister. No more, no less. Once can call that half-arsed, but i would call such a judgment biased. He might have been half-assed in his work and studies (which he fixed by quitting school so he can focus one one), but not in his relationship with Kei. Just because he didn't feel romantically attracted to her doesn't make the relationship half-arsed. He fixed the problem when he became fully aware of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling
And if you think that there was no 'half-assedness' conflict to be resolved in the first place, then don't consider episode 10 to have provided any sort of resolution to Hiro's 'missing colour' dillemma either. In any case, you can't just ignore those lines above and go around claiming Hiro was converted from some unfeeling, asexual shell into a passionate lover through a fated encounter with Miyako or something.
First of all, i am not claiming anything. Secondly, everything we need to know about Hiro and Miyako the show has lied out in front of us in a very obvious fashion. He lacked something special in his stagnant life, and Miyako became that something. Nothing more to it, nothing less. You are simply arguing against Hiro and the show itself by stating otherwise. His half-assedness in his relationship with Kei i consider a biased call by Kyousuke, enhanced for dramatic value and exaggerated in the trademark spirit of this show. I don't see how that relates to his "missing color".

Him not having romantic interest in Kei does not make him asexual in any way imaginable. As for how passionate he is you will have to ask Miyako herself
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Old 2007-12-29, 14:16   Link #1405
grey_moon
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Hiro's main problem is he didn't start by drawing real manga in the form of perverted doshinji. If he did he would have tried to bag Kei, Chihrio and Miyako for a 4 some
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Old 2007-12-29, 16:35   Link #1406
guuchan
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I laughed after I read Skyfall's reply. So yeah, there's your response, Sol Falling. I got nothing to add as of now other than Skyfall's reputation.
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Old 2007-12-29, 16:51   Link #1407
gaguri
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Somehow I was too stupid to read the lines said by Chihiro at the end hmmm. Subtitle made it clear that Chihiro was indeed acting *hides in a hole.
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Old 2007-12-29, 19:05   Link #1408
ElementSun
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the opening for ef is kinda... hard to listen to, since its sung in english.

However, the japanese version is absolutely astounding, and I'm still not sure why they didn't choose to use it.

Last edited by NoSanninWa; 2007-12-30 at 04:21. Reason: rules
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Old 2007-12-29, 19:19   Link #1409
golthin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
I don't see the problem here. Thats something he had imagined could happen, given their long relationship and history. It doesn't imply actual romantic interest in her however. He might have though thats how things could progress, but it doesn't mean he was actually interested in her romantically at the present point in time. It was a possibility that at some point in future it could have changed to that, but at the present his feelings for Kei are limited to "sister". "Kei is Kei. why must she be one or the other?"

One could argue that his "half-assedness" was overplayed here, but i much rather would say it was somewhat out of place in the first place - he was being consistent with Kei, he showed no romantic interest in her and apparently didn't think she had either, before it hit him on the head. You may not like it, but thats the extent of his relationship with Kei - someone whom he has known since forever, and a person he cares about ... as a sister. No more, no less. Once can call that half-arsed, but i would call such a judgment biased. He might have been half-assed in his work and studies (which he fixed by quitting school so he can focus one one), but not in his relationship with Kei. Just because he didn't feel romantically attracted to her doesn't make the relationship half-arsed. He fixed the problem when he became fully aware of it.



First of all, i am not claiming anything. Secondly, everything we need to know about Hiro and Miyako the show has lied out in front of us in a very obvious fashion. He lacked something special in his stagnant life, and Miyako became that something. Nothing more to it, nothing less. You are simply arguing against Hiro and the show itself by stating otherwise. His half-assedness in his relationship with Kei i consider a biased call by Kyousuke, enhanced for dramatic value and exaggerated in the trademark spirit of this show. I don't see how that relates to his "missing color".

Him not having romantic interest in Kei does not make him asexual in any way imaginable. As for how passionate he is you will have to ask Miyako herself
Hiro always was a person that had to be lead, he had no intiative and that was kei's mistake. Miyako took the lead and got the boy! If kei had not been restrained by her guilt and had confessed to Hiro much earlier, i bet he will have followed her lead!
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Old 2007-12-29, 21:06   Link #1410
Kristen
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So, I first saw this series when they were on like episode eight or nine or something. After looking into it, it seemed quite interesting, and i wanted to watch it. However, I hate being able to watch eight straight episodes and then being forced to wait a month before seeing the ending. So, I waited for the release of episode 12.

I have to say, this was quite some series. Very artsy, with one of the best soundtracks I have ever heard for an anime, and some of the best artwork. I think it was a little too strong the first two episodes, as the constant screen changes and abstract styles began to give me a headache. However, they really made a turnaround in the last 10 episodes.

The only episode I really didn't like was 7, when they spent something like ten minutes showing all the various phone calls Miyako made, displaying it on the screen. I felt that could have been cut down just a little bit. The 100 minutes in episode 10 were nice, however, as that was a very plotsy sort of thing. It was fun to watch.

Basically, this series is everything I've ever wanted in an anime. It's the anime I have been seeking ever since I saw the end of Kanon.

I'm going to give this a 9.5 out of 10 overall. It had a few flaws in episodes 1, 2, and 7, but it was still everything I wanted.
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Old 2007-12-29, 21:10   Link #1411
Horo Haru
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This was pure win. I love this series.
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Old 2007-12-29, 21:20   Link #1412
SuperKnuckles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaguri View Post
His comparison was very simple. He recognised Gankutsuou's technical merits but didn't like the story/characters. Same as ef. The point he was making isn't about how similar they are, but the fact that he recognises both as a great piece of animation, yet unable to feel for its story/characters at the same time due to his personal taste.
True, though I think something like Gankutsuou is basically about the one and only Count. With ef, you can spread your empathy upon any one of the cast.

The thing with both is that they're not supposed to appeal to the most basic taste. Not everyone can appreciate an undead/vampire homosexual Count or some of the more melodramatic archetypes with ef. I can understand that. But they are merely made that way and I don't see that as an intrinsic flaw with the story. I agree that it does hinge mostly on personal taste at that point.

Quote:
Anyway, I am so glad that they managed to give a satisfying ending to Renji x Chihiro arc. As mentioned before, this has the spirit of a korean melodrama, but I haven't watched one korean melo that is better than ef (well, I guess I liked Damo bit better, ha ji won is so hot...). They throw all sorts of ridiculous and absurd things in K-melo in an attempt to resolve a seemingly impossible problems, but I almost had tears rushing to my eyes at the climax. In many ways, some of the plot events can be argued as too convenient and laughable (especially when she suddenly
Spoiler:
, but the way it was presented is full of so much energy and emotion, I couldn't help but cheer for Renji as he strived to break the chains, and almost cried at the fact that she found love to endure, until he gave her that last extra strength to break free.
There are plenty of great Korean melodramas that doesn't rush through as much. But what's a melodrama without the sudden, unexpected and even seemingly divine intervention? I think ef was the similar case. Actually, even with something like Kanon and Clannad too. You can't explain how a fox turned into a human. You can't.

Quote:
My biggest complain though is the mediocre manner in which they resolved Hirohiro-Miyamiya-Kei arc. Without going into too much details, it was just another love triangle where the conflict was a resolved in a rush. It seemed as if hirohiro's 'half-half' attitude (observed by both his manga reader and Kyousuke) was the source of their problem (as well as the two girls' demanding nature), so he tried to 'choose one'. But the thing is he didn't. Before he treated Miyamiya as a lover and Kei as his little sister and now he's doing exactly the same. He wasn't going to lose either of them, and that's fine, that can be done through good character interactions and developments. But that is completely different to 'choosing one', Hirohiro's attitude towards his relationship didn't change at all. And yet, Kei decides to accept Hirohiro as just her older brother, and Miyamiya decides to allow Hirohiro to like someone other than her, and all Hirohiro had to do was do his sweet talking. This to me is not Hirohiro growing as a character and solving a problem, it's basically writers changing his girls minds to solve their problem without going through any sort of developments.
Well, I think choosing one or the other WAS the development needed to change things. I agree that their story is more archetypal of romance shows. I think what made it work was the sheer amount of emotion they were able to inject even with the lack of a script or longer screen-time to play around with more development of characters.

Quote:
And the fact that the show tried to parallel his approach to work (quitting school) to his approach to relationship is laughable because that's simply false. So like few posters here, I couldn't appreciate the epilogue at the end, where Hirohiro claims to have finally 'found his colour', when in my opinion, he didn't change his colour at all. And since the conflict was resolved way too easily, it did not earn my support. And it's a shame because I thought this arc had even more potential than Renji x Chihiro's arc.
I don't think the parallel was false. he problem with Hirono was that his indecisiveness was only hurting others around him and himself. It is a pretty basic logic of the situation and not that it is realistic or anything by itself. It's not like Hirono found his color other than that he found a way to continue on without being stuck in limbo. Again, I think the reason why it came to that abrupt situation and resolution is mostly to do with the way they were trying to put the story out in a melodramatic situation more than it being resolved through time and story events if the show was, let's say a 26 episode show.

Quote:
I was hoping that the two arcs were going to be related somehow, but I think it's fine the way it is. The two plots don't necessarily have to intersect with each other, but having a parallel theme running to make the same message in different ways. The most recent live action example I can think of is 'Babel'. Well technically they had some of the stories running into each other, but not so much, different 'arcs' were there to show variety of situations that parallels the same message rather than accumulating together as a whole new message.
The link was supposed to be with Yuu and Yuko finding a link of sorts for the relationships they help mend. But I don't think the anime really went much into that as they could/should have. Which is why I wish they make another ef show. It can tie it all up better just by seeing those characters more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
hmm...? I'm not quite sure where you guys are getting this from. Although I can get on board with Hiro having little or no prior romantic inclination towards Kei before he got together with Miyako, I'd also contend that Hiro had little or no romantic inclination towards Miyako until she 'made her move', per se, such that she 'got' him only by virtue of being first. But that's still debatable.
Pardon me saying this, but that is pretty typical in anime relationships though. You don't have the protagonist expressing romantic love from square one and work from there. And I agree with the guys who says Hirono, whether consciously or unconsciously (I'd say unconsciously) chose Miyako because the role of Kei being a sister was apparently something Hirono finalized a long time ago. Then there's Hirono's confession to Kei that he only recently thought it was possible to be together with Kei, so I don't think it was something Hirono really planned it out on his head. That seems to happen with just about every romance situation, ever.
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Old 2007-12-29, 21:23   Link #1413
Dop
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Originally Posted by ChrissieXD View Post
The only episode I really didn't like was 7, when they spent something like ten minutes showing all the various phone calls Miyako made, displaying it on the screen. I felt that could have been cut down just a little bit. The 100 minutes in episode 10 were nice, however, as that was a very plotsy sort of thing. It was fun to watch.
I thought that was absolutely gripping. Hiroko Taguchi's performance as she ran through a whole range of emotions had me rooted to the spot. For me, that was one of the most powerful scenes of the whole series.
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Old 2007-12-29, 21:46   Link #1414
Supah Em
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dop View Post
I thought that was absolutely gripping. Hiroko Taguchi's performance as she ran through a whole range of emotions had me rooted to the spot. For me, that was one of the most powerful scenes of the whole series.
we share the same sentiments


curiously, the scenes where no characters were shown are the most powerful ones. these includes

Spoiler for here:
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Old 2007-12-29, 22:42   Link #1415
Kristen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dop View Post
I thought that was absolutely gripping. Hiroko Taguchi's performance as she ran through a whole range of emotions had me rooted to the spot. For me, that was one of the most powerful scenes of the whole series.
Heh. It just really didn't hit me. I did notice the range of emotions, it just was like, not there for me. Probably because that was a very artsy scene, concentrating on the beauty of a character instead of a plotsy scene. Because we already knew that she had called 99 times, so it really didn't advance the plot.

Though having Kei delete them WAS definately powerful. Because you just went through 4 minutes of watching how much agony she went through, all destroyed by Kei so simply.

I also was a bit more drawn into Chihiro's story, since I can connect better with her. So, that was kind of wasted time at that point.
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Old 2007-12-29, 23:22   Link #1416
Eviltape
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For my own sanity, I ignored everything on the last 2 pages while I'm watching the episode. And I'll just post my reactions in the spoiler tags here...

Spoiler:


Epic series now burned to a DVD. Now I just need an image to Lightscribe on top of it.
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Old 2007-12-29, 23:43   Link #1417
ElementSun
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Dang... I wonder if anyone knows where I can get the music sheet for the song in the prologue (the instrumental of the finale ending song =D)
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Old 2007-12-30, 00:42   Link #1418
porchoky
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Actually, all of miyato's voice messages and the 100 second thing started to really get on my nerves about halfway through each one. Not as in I didn't like it, my brain just couldn't physically take any more of it (something to do with how phones multilate your voices, and the picture of the phone booth - 90 seconds, beep - phone booth - 89 seconds, beep - etc). It was physically painful. I'm messed up like that.

And yeah, I f*cking want the sheet music for the piano part. It would be so awesome to play that. I might just put it on my mp3 player and go over and try to play it by ear.
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Old 2007-12-30, 01:48   Link #1419
ironbomb
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Started to download the anime 24hours ago and finished watching all 12 episodes 10minutes ago, had to go wash my face.

The storyline was hard to follow at first, especially during the first 3 episodes, I didnt understand what the heck was going on. It seemed like it was really draggy as well since it didnt progressed and gone nowhere for majority of the anime. It started picking up pace around episode 6 or 7, forgot...When you learn about Chihiro's accident and what each character wanted.
I love the character designs in this anime too, brilliantly drawn and displayed. Really appealing and thats what attracted me into picking up this anime. The development was pretty smooth too, other than the introductions of the characters which bored me, the development of the relationships and the conflicts went well. Especially love how at the end of each episode, they left a cliffhanger, such suspense kept me going through the series.
The episode that caught my attention the most, had to be episode 10. I actually paused the episode(other than to sometimes reread the subs) to note down the conversation between Hirono and the apparition, Yuko...I wanted to share with everyone again what was stated :

1- Knowing something and understanding it are different.
2- They're all important to you, so you don't want to let go of any of them, right?
3- But one day you'll have to give up one of them.
4- For the sake of not letting go of what's most important to you.
5- But if you don't choose one, you'll end up losing everything.
6- Even so, I can't abandon something I got involved with and pretend nothing happened.
7- You're not abandoning it.
8- They're asking you to abandon it. Thats why its painful.
9- But as long as you live, you can't run away from pain.
10- Letting go of a bond that you created will cause you the same pain as having your body torn apart.
11- We shouldn't run away even if we can't bear it.
That conversation was so meaningful and had such a great emotional and affect that truly moved me...gotta say it was well done. I also liked the conversation between Kuzue and Renji in the last episode but didnt want to note them down because I was so absorbed into the anime.

The music that played in the anime was great as well..I would be interested in getting the OST and this is the first time...after seeing so many anime that I have been interested.
Another memorable scene that I have in my head now is, when Hirono called Miyako to confessed his feelings, that same scene where we find out about Miyako's past...The 100second countdown was really well done, I did get annoyed though, just a bit, at the beeping sound of each second.
The most annoying part had to be, when Miyako was agonizing and thought that Hirono rejected and totally ignored her...It got its point through but it was so annoying....to the point that I didnt even pity what happened to her at the moment.

Rating - 8 out of 10, 10 being the best.
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Old 2007-12-30, 03:02   Link #1420
EFrules
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Awwww I'm so jealous for people who are burning this series to DVD I want one too!!!! I tried to download one but I don't know where to watch it.....

I've been following EF through Youtube and Veoh and way back on October till now I still want my copy....

I guess it's what you call low on tech knowledge.... Oh well I tried.
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