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Old 2008-01-01, 03:52   Link #1481
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles View Post
ef was an upstart production, started in comiket and it definitely did not have the widespread appeal to get that family-friendly version though.
Incidentally, about this... I'm not too sure where you got that idea. Are you thinking of a different game? ef is a professional production by minori, who've been in the industry for many, many years (this is their fifth major work, it seems). It's not an upstart by any means, and it was one of the more expensive productions in the genre (the short length was due to the high production cost). And IIRC, it was one of the top-selling games in its year of release too, so it certainly had the widespread appeal to get the all-ages version if the producers wanted it (many lesser-selling games are converted to all-ages adaptations), and that may still happen, eventually.

As for the rest... yes, when I said it was theatric, I was referring to the way they presented the drama, not that "theatre" is somehow a theme. If you ever go watch a musical on Broadway or wherever, this is somewhat similar -- it jumps from major scene to major scene, emphasizing each through music and symbolism (though of course, it's a different sort of symbolism than you get in theatre). You don't really get a deep dive into a given character, but enough so you can understand where they're coming from and follow along. In a musical, each number has to hit some sort of emotional note or strike a chord with the audience as it builds up towards the climax (because time is limited); the same sort of feeling happens here. So, anyway, that was what I meant by it anyway; it's "theatre-style melodrama" as opposed to typical anime-style. And I do believe it's a style, not a flaw, but that's why I said it's personal preference...
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Old 2008-01-01, 04:40   Link #1482
SuperKnuckles
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Well, the thing with Minori was that ef was basically the one thing that put them into bigtime with the first time they put in such a huge budget and arguably the first one to truly be successful. That's what I meant by 'upstart'. Not the most accurate to the meaning of the word, I guess.

I agree with the theatrical part though. Even with Shakespeare, it was BEYOND difficult to attract oneself towards the characters and their strange aloofness in the plays, but their theatrics and wordplay made them come alive and had them become considered the classics we know of them as.

Just a different approach that's all.
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Old 2008-01-01, 13:06   Link #1483
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaguri
But yea I agree, Memento used the memory victim part much better. But only because the whole movie was focused around it while ef branched off to other areas (although arguably nothing very deep)
I admit that it's not a very fair comparison; however it's also the most obvious one given Chihiro's condition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles
What's so hard to understand about Kei?
Absolutely nothing. That's sort of my point - Kei is a simple character, and ef handled her decently. Miyako and Chihiro are more complicated, and they sort of messed up there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles
Also, I wonder why empathizable characters is supposed to be some sort of a necessary point to begin with. Many people would probably be taken aback by Miyako's mental problems, Chihiro's physical problems, Kei's clinginess, but I think that sort of a strange emotional disconnect is the draw. Because that creates all sorts of melodramatic possibilities. Like I said, ef didn't revolve itself around grounded characters. It started from the melodrama upwards it seemed.
You don't understand why it's important to make the audience empathize with the central character? Or why this is important when producing a melodrama?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles
I thought the impact was there from start to finish. Again, there is really nothing fundamentally wrong about it. The style has always been controversial of Shaft's way of animation, but I never heard of any detailed arguments beyond pure subjectivity in terms of exactly why they are flawed. Also, don't you think it's oxymoronic to say that there is a disconnect between the artsy stuff and the characters when you were the one to say you disliked the artsy aspect of ef?
No. I disliked the artsy stuff because it created a disconnect with the characters. And pretty much all arguments about the non-technical qualities of a work are subjective to begin with, so I'm not sure how that's supposed to be an issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles
Um, except the 'theatrical' part of Utena and Tutu were physically represented. In ef, it's more the way of presentation. I fail to see how any of them are even related since some of them are magical girl/fairytale type of shows from the getgo while ef isn't.
As I pointed out, they came to mind because of a similarity in style of presentation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles
I agree that it could've been better, but 'much better'? I think that's somewhat disingenuous to say when you say you actually liked it...
As it is, I think that ef is a mediocre show. If I were to compare it to the other shows that debuted in Fall 2007, it'd trail at least ten other shows. I think that it could/should have done much better than that. I'd also like to point out that it's quite possible for a person to enjoy shows that they don't think are very good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles
And you say the flow doesn't work properly?
It's mostly the characters, but there were quite a few scenes that didn't work.
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Old 2008-01-01, 18:08   Link #1484
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Ooo! According to CD Japan, the soundtrack is released on the 8th February.
I've got my order placed already - something to look forward to!
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Old 2008-01-02, 00:05   Link #1485
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Finally got to watching episodes 11 & 12 and I totally agree with what's been said about them! This series gets a 10 out of 10 from me!!

After watching ep 12's end, I noticed something interesting:

ef - the first tale game open:
<--Launching a paper airplane

ef anime end:
<--Receiving a paper airplane

Coincidence?

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Old 2008-01-02, 02:00   Link #1486
SuperKnuckles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Absolutely nothing. That's sort of my point - Kei is a simple character, and ef handled her decently. Miyako and Chihiro are more complicated, and they sort of messed up there.
"messed up" is a strong word when I don't see that to be some sort of a fact. Not to mention I opine differently about it all. It got the message over. Though in terms of character endearment, they could have done more. Not exactly 'messed up' to me other than simply not going down that route of storytelling as I see it.

Quote:
You don't understand why it's important to make the audience empathize with the central character? Or why this is important when producing a melodrama?
I understand it, but that's just not what ef was shooting for it seemed. Also, I think it's important to note that a lot of people were turned off by a lot of the characters and I think that's an important thing. You don't read Catcher in the Rye to empathize with Holden. You just go along with the ride. Most people I know hated the character, but went along for the drama anyway. To me, that's sort of the approach ef has taken. Could have have made it more easy to sympathize with the characters? Yeah. But is it absolutely crucial? I'd definitely say no.

Quote:
No. I disliked the artsy stuff because it created a disconnect with the characters. And pretty much all arguments about the non-technical qualities of a work are subjective to begin with, so I'm not sure how that's supposed to be an issue.
You're putting that whole 'disconnect' part as it was some sort of a mathematical representation of the show's fault. That's where I'm not letting go of my argument because I feel that is so integral to the success of the show. Without that kind of stark storytelling technique (again, it's a like it or hate it deal), the core story probably wouldn't have held up enough water due to the rather distant characters in the likes of Hirono, Miyako and the iceprince Yuu. I can fully accept that this show probably won't resonate with all audiences. Even 2ch was apparently in a bit of an uproar because of that issue. But again, to me that is pure subjectivity, even to the point of how the artsy aspect played into it.

Quote:
As I pointed out, they came to mind because of a similarity in style of presentation.
There's that, though I feel the actual setting is VERY important in this aspect. Because I haven't really seen many romance anime so obviously go that route of theatrical storytelling compared to something that tries to hide it a bit more with other presentation elements (slice of life, comedy, etc) like Kanon or Clannad.

Quote:
As it is, I think that ef is a mediocre show. If I were to compare it to the other shows that debuted in Fall 2007, it'd trail at least ten other shows. I think that it could/should have done much better than that. I'd also like to point out that it's quite possible for a person to enjoy shows that they don't think are very good.
I wouldn't be so quick to put the term 'mediocre' to that of shows that didn't exactly get used to full potential. But that's just me. I even enjoyed the apparently 'flawed' types of shows such as Najica (need I say more?) and Umisho too. I wouldn't exactly tout them as classics nor would I really pass out my word on them, but ef, I definitely did. Like the whole argument I based off the willful storytelling of ef, I think it is mediocre in some ways (characterization like you have mentioned), but it excels in the visual representation and atmosphere that, to me, really isn't rivaled. It's like a boxer sacrificing power for the sake of speed.

I think that is why some people think ef should've been better in every way because its stark storytelling style is something rarely ever seen. It raised a lot of expectation due to the effort alone. And again, I think the door is WIDE open for Shaft on some sort of a spiritual followup to ef. For a first time effort, for them to come so close to making a classic of the ages (well, to me it is anyway), I think that's a rousing success.

Quote:
It's mostly the characters, but there were quite a few scenes that didn't work.
Only from your point of view of character development, but like I said, that's only one way of looking at it. From a purely disconnected melodrama aspect, I don't see how it could've been done much better in that aspect. I keep saying this, but ef just shot straight at the melodrama without looking back. And yes, that may have its detrimental effects, but that is precisely what I admire the most about ef. Even with some scenes that came one after the other with seemingly no flow to them, the one thing they ABSOLUTELY did not do was to dawdle. No other anime really has taken that bold step forward in 2007 for me, though I would acknowledge that a dozen or other shows feel more complete and 'safe'ly made.
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Old 2008-01-02, 05:09   Link #1487
serenade_beta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
After watching ep 12's end, I noticed something interesting:

ef - the first tale game open:
<--Launching a paper airplane

ef anime end:
<--Receiving a paper airplane

Coincidence?

Nope, not at all~

Beginning and end, launch and touch down~
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Old 2008-01-02, 08:57   Link #1488
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles
"messed up" is a strong word when I don't see that to be some sort of a fact. Not to mention I opine differently about it all. It got the message over. Though in terms of character endearment, they could have done more. Not exactly 'messed up' to me other than simply not going down that route of storytelling as I see it.
Think of it this way, what kind of character do you think the creators intended to build up Chihiro as? How about Miyako?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles
I understand it, but that's just not what ef was shooting for it seemed. Also, I think it's important to note that a lot of people were turned off by a lot of the characters and I think that's an important thing. You don't read Catcher in the Rye to empathize with Holden. You just go along with the ride. Most people I know hated the character, but went along for the drama anyway. To me, that's sort of the approach ef has taken. Could have have made it more easy to sympathize with the characters? Yeah. But is it absolutely crucial? I'd definitely say no.
Why? And what does melodrama minus empathy for the characters equate to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles
I wouldn't be so quick to put the term 'mediocre' to that of shows that didn't exactly get used to full potential. But that's just me. I even enjoyed the apparently 'flawed' types of shows such as Najica (need I say more?) and Umisho too. I wouldn't exactly tout them as classics nor would I really pass out my word on them, but ef, I definitely did. Like the whole argument I based off the willful storytelling of ef, I think it is mediocre in some ways (characterization like you have mentioned), but it excels in the visual representation and atmosphere that, to me, really isn't rivaled. It's like a boxer sacrificing power for the sake of speed.
I think that ef is a middling show that could have been much better - why would "mediocre" be an inappropriate descriptor?
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Old 2008-01-02, 09:35   Link #1489
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Think of it this way, what kind of character do you think the creators intended to build up Chihiro as? How about Miyako?
Both relatively basic 'girls with problems' who meets that other batch 'guys with problems' and letting the romance fix/break things? I don't think it needed to be much other than that from what they had to work with. I actually think that works better in a shorter series.

Quote:
Why? And what does melodrama minus empathy for the characters equate to?
To me, that's still a worthwhile entertainment as long as the developments keeps it interesting. Though I would generally agree that more likable characters would probably have led to ef being more popular.

Quote:
I think that ef is a middling show that could have been much better - why would "mediocre" be an inappropriate descriptor?
To me, 'mediocre' would be something that would hardly register. An anime that barely tries to do anything beyond the staus quo. And whether you like the things ef did or not, you have to admit that they tried a LOT of new storytelling approaches that is compelling at best, risque at worst.

Mediocre to me is maybe... Happiness (scratch that, that show was just horrendous). If I had to put it, maybe ef was like an experiment or an appetizer for the full course to the full potential of Shaft. It was ambitious and whether it was hit and miss, to me the term 'mediocre' or 'average' just doesn't sound right to describe it.

Beyond that, I'll have to agree to disagree that it was mediocre in any intrinsic level.
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Old 2008-01-02, 09:57   Link #1490
Kaoru Chujo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Think of it this way, what kind of character do you think the creators intended to build up Chihiro as? How about Miyako? Why? And what does melodrama minus empathy for the characters equate to? I think that ef is a middling show that could have been much better - why would "mediocre" be an inappropriate descriptor?
For me, "outstanding" is a lot better descriptor. I sympathized with all the characters throughout (even, eventually, Yu). Is it possible that a little more empathy and imagination on the part of the viewer might be a necessary part of this process? Of course, everybody has their own legitimate reactions, but we (myself included) have to be careful not to elevate personal preferences into universal rules.

Chihiro was exciting in part because she was more than one character. She was the amnesiac at various stages of her process: from just had the accident, to simply accepting her strange life, to seeing the possibility of salvation, to despairing of salvation and so strong-willed that she could give up the possibility entirely, to desperately in love and ashamed of her weakness. Weak but strong. She really was a wounded god. I loved the one image of her peering around the door at Chihiro and Yu arguing: there was something almost malevolent in her eye, like some savage ignorant deity.

Miyako had a beautifully contradictory nature: dependent and independent, aggressive, playful, despairing, hopeful, hating, loving, etc. In screenwriting, one technique for developing characters is apparently to start with contradictions, and I think that may be what minori did with her. She was as much a breath of fresh air for me as for Hiro.

About the only scene that seemed odd to me was in the final episode when Miyako was happy to see the message from Kei. But I accepted that since time had passed.

To me, this show was a great melodrama, told in a way that was spare but very strong. It neither had nor needed the time that a normal TV dorama would have to make its emotional strikes. And as others have said, the music was an important part of ef's technique. Real melo-drama ("melo" = "song" in ancient Greek).

I have to add that I usually find it illegitimate when people say a show should have done this or that. It seems to me people often try to take a show they don't happen to like for whatever reason and convert it into one that is something they are more familiar with, rather than trying to appreciate it on its own terms. I'm not saying this is always true, just often.
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Old 2008-01-02, 11:59   Link #1491
Deathkillz
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Impressive how one man's dispute can spawn off so much discussion that everyone else is scared to come here
Wonder how much hell I can raise if I went over to haruhi forum and called it medicore XD (honest opinion is that it is way over hyped).

Something to change the mood hmm...
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/3...af4a59bwk9.jpg
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Old 2008-01-02, 12:49   Link #1492
ironbomb
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...did u steal that bottle from my house...-_-;; coulda swore I had a bottle before new years =P, oh wait, who has alcohol left after new years ^^ lol!

I as well, sympathize with the characters. The ride of emotions thorough the anime was a good ride but could it have been a bit smooth? Yea, there was alot of things that just jumped off too much but looking at it in a full view, it was a good experience.
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Old 2008-01-02, 12:59   Link #1493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
Impressive how one man's dispute can spawn off so much discussion that everyone else is scared to come here
Wonder how much hell I can raise if I went over to haruhi forum and called it medicore XD.
Well, yeah -- eventually, you just have to accept that, sometimes, you're not going to change a person's opinion no matter what. In the end, it's just "that's a nice opinion, but I disagree". This is why I've been saying all along that this is personal preference, but both sides of the debate are arguing as if it's "objective" -- it isn't...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
I have to add that I usually find it illegitimate when people say a show should have done this or that. It seems to me people often try to take a show they don't happen to like for whatever reason and convert it into one that is something they are more familiar with, rather than trying to appreciate it on its own terms. I'm not saying this is always true, just often.
Well, of course, that's human nature. What's funny is when people do this very same thing with people and not just shows/movies/etc. Sometimes the very things people don't like are the same as what make it unique; attempt to change those things, as it loses its original charm. I have no idea whether or not that'd be the case here, but I'd rather just accept the show for the way it is and try to understand it, rather than playing "what if" sort of games that ultimately make no difference. Either you enjoy the show as is, or you don't -- that itself is the only "prize" to be won.
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Old 2008-01-02, 13:29   Link #1494
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Well executed.

Bold on many levels.

ef is the only show this year that I'd consider telling my film-snob friends about.
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Old 2008-01-02, 19:26   Link #1495
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I like that setup, Deathkillz.
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Old 2008-01-02, 19:37   Link #1496
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Well, of course, that's human nature. What's funny is when people do this very same thing with people and not just shows/movies/etc. Sometimes the very things people don't like are the same as what make it unique; attempt to change those things, as it loses its original charm. I have no idea whether or not that'd be the case here...
Well, if he has watched and appreciated anything like Memento (which he obviously did) then it's foolish to think that this is the case.

Quote:
...but I'd rather just accept the show for the way it is and try to understand it, rather than playing "what if" sort of games that ultimately make no difference. Either you enjoy the show as is, or you don't -- that itself is the only "prize" to be won.
Quote:
I have to add that I usually find it illegitimate when people say a show should have done this or that. It seems to me people often try to take a show they don't happen to like for whatever reason and convert it into one that is something they are more familiar with, rather than trying to appreciate it on its own terms. I'm not saying this is always true, just often.
This reminds me of rather heated discussion I had in Seirei no Moribito thread. Few started criticising me (and others who agreed with me) that I was playing with this 'what if' game and not accepting the anime for what it is. I don't see what's wrong with it though. All I did was point out the show's flaws and provide an alternative example from a very similar (but superior) example.

To make long story short, I talked about how the show was exploring character interactions and worlds were, well, kind of boring, without building any tension, had nothing to do with the overall story. They argued that the show wasn't about epic but enjoying these little moments. But if you have a look at the first and third arc of 12 Kingdoms, they too spend time exploring characters and world, but they all lead upto the epic climax at the end. So then I go back to 'only if Seirei did this and this like 12 Kingdoms...'
*edit: all arguments please post back to seirei thread pls~

Did I attempt to turn Seirei into something I was more familiar with (like 12 Kingdoms)? Well, according to you people but no, not in the slightest in my opinion. Try to listen to the things said about the anime and make points to argue back, without criticising posters like 'o this guy must not like new stuff, o this guy can't open up he can only link to past stuff he liked'. If you actually read what 4tran has said, he's criticisining the show's visual presentation and unempathic characters, not its new and bizarre way of telling a story that is of a totally unfarmiliar territory to him. I can see why fans of series aren't going to like statements like this and will try to counter it in some way but that's the kind of thing you have to accept in a forum. to put it bluntly, suck it up and make counter points. It's better than a thread full of 'zomg it was owsome' and horny pictures, in my sincere opinion.

Last edited by gaguri; 2008-01-02 at 19:49.
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Old 2008-01-02, 23:31   Link #1497
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Originally Posted by gaguri View Post
Try to listen to the things said about the anime and make points to argue back, without criticising posters like 'o this guy must not like new stuff, o this guy can't open up he can only link to past stuff he liked'. If you actually read what 4tran has said, he's criticisining the show's visual presentation and unempathic characters, not its new and bizarre way of telling a story that is of a totally unfarmiliar territory to him. I can see why fans of series aren't going to like statements like this and will try to counter it in some way but that's the kind of thing you have to accept in a forum. to put it bluntly, suck it up and make counter points. It's better than a thread full of 'zomg it was owsome' and horny pictures, in my sincere opinion.
This is a side-issue. You need to keep the main thing the main thing here.

There's no point providing counter-arguments to subjective opinion. If one says "I would have liked the show better if it did this or that", another can just as easily say "Actually, I really *liked* that they did the other" -- and they'd both be right, in their own eyes at least. 4tran does indeed make a valid point -- he found the show to be mediocre because, in his eyes, it didn't properly develop the characters and thus the drama failed to appeal to him. But, on the flip side, I found the drama to be quite appealing (in spite of the thin prior character development), and the overall show to be quite exceptional for its genre. Would it have been even better if it had done more to 4tran's tastes? To him and those who hold the same values, assumably yes. To everyone else... who knows? If you liked it just fine the way it was, how are you supposed to see the appeal in changing it, especially when that change might have other consequences you can't predict? Even if you can concede that it's a perfectly valid point of view, that doesn't mean that you'll feel the same way. We can speculate forever and ever, but it won't change that some liked it the way it was, and some believe they would have liked it better some other way. This is why there's variety in life -- people have different tastes, and they're all fine.

Really, the extent of our discussion in these circumstances can only be to help clarify one's point of view. Once it's clear what each other's thinking, there's no point in discussing further. This isn't something that can be "countered". It has nothing at all to do with "fans of the series not liking statements like this"; if you don't see the problem, you'll have no need for the "solution". So, if your discussion in the Seirei no Moribito thread carried this same flavour, I can see why it wouldn't have lead anywhere constructive. You can't pass subjective opinions and hypothetical scenarios as objective facts/arguments and expect an objective discussion in return. You need to also accept that other perfectly reasonable, intelligent people can see things in a totally different way, and there's nothing wrong with that or with them (it doesn't mean they're just "fanboys"). In short, no matter how insightful you think you are, that doesn't make your opinions fact -- and sometimes, we all just need to suck it up.

And now back to your regularly scheduled discussion...
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Old 2008-01-02, 23:52   Link #1498
ironbomb
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It is what and how everyone sees the anime that makes everyone unique. Everyone has different tastes, even though some might share a similarity, overall everyone is different. I gotta agree with relentlessflame here, once you understand what the other person is trying to say, you either agree or disagree and should be end of it unless its something that is a "fact". When we start to go with "what ifs", we only end up with an infinite number of possibilities.

anyways, I just loved the scene when Renji looked so miserable when Chihiro forgot about him in the church when she collapsed...The way Renji acted was just so realistic ^^, <3 that part.
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Old 2008-01-03, 00:51   Link #1499
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Thank you, gaguri, for covering my points for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles
To me, 'mediocre' would be something that would hardly register. An anime that barely tries to do anything beyond the staus quo. And whether you like the things ef did or not, you have to admit that they tried a LOT of new storytelling approaches that is compelling at best, risque at worst.
Your particular connotation of "mediocre" isn't really important since I'm using the word. As long as my usage matches what the dictionary says, I don't see any cause for complaint. And as far as I'm concerned, an unconventional approach to visual imagery (especially one that doesn't really work) doesn't necessarily mean that that show is more than mediocre. Right now, I rate ef just below (of all things) Goshūshō-sama Ninomiya-kun of the fall premieres (ef is the better show, but I found Ninomiya-kun to be a much more fun watch).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo
Chihiro was exciting in part because she was more than one character. She was the amnesiac at various stages of her process: from just had the accident, to simply accepting her strange life, to seeing the possibility of salvation, to despairing of salvation and so strong-willed that she could give up the possibility entirely, to desperately in love and ashamed of her weakness. Weak but strong. She really was a wounded god. I loved the one image of her peering around the door at Chihiro and Yu arguing: there was something almost malevolent in her eye, like some savage ignorant deity.

Miyako had a beautifully contradictory nature: dependent and independent, aggressive, playful, despairing, hopeful, hating, loving, etc. In screenwriting, one technique for developing characters is apparently to start with contradictions, and I think that may be what minori did with her. She was as much a breath of fresh air for me as for Hiro.
I got radically different impressions of these characters, and their supposedly strongest scenes felt rather empty. As a result, the melodrama part of it didn't work. Heck, this even applies to the final episode, where I thought Renji's act of looking for the pages of the diary worked mostly on a childish/selfish level. However, the sheer joie de vive of the moment when Renji and Chihiro met up again won me over. It's the only scene in the entire show that touched me on an emotional level.

Miyako, on the other hand, I couldn't give a damn about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo
I have to add that I usually find it illegitimate when people say a show should have done this or that. It seems to me people often try to take a show they don't happen to like for whatever reason and convert it into one that is something they are more familiar with, rather than trying to appreciate it on its own terms. I'm not saying this is always true, just often.
Sure it's interesting to speculate on the reasons why someone make use a certain tact, you'd be better served to look at whether such speculation is warranted. If your comment is directed at me, then rest assured that I'm quite familiar with ef's style.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
I have no idea whether or not that'd be the case here, but I'd rather just accept the show for the way it is and try to understand it, rather than playing "what if" sort of games that ultimately make no difference. Either you enjoy the show as is, or you don't -- that itself is the only "prize" to be won.
To a degree, I agree with you that the "what if game" can be taken too far. However, it's quite valid to criticize the creative choices made in a show - like the direction of a particular scene, the way a particular character is presented, and so forth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gaguri
This reminds me of rather heated discussion I had in Seirei no Moribito thread. Few started criticising me (and others who agreed with me) that I was playing with this 'what if' game and not accepting the anime for what it is. I don't see what's wrong with it though. All I did was point out the show's flaws and provide an alternative example from a very similar (but superior) example.
For the most part, I think that one should "simply enjoy a show for what it is" is a silly idea. If it were true, then there'd be no point in discussing it. Hopefully, one posts one's reactions of a show; positive or negative, speculative or analytical; in the hopes of stimulating interesting conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
In short, no matter how insightful you think you are, that doesn't make your opinions fact -- and sometimes, we all just need to suck it up.
Since one's tastes are the ultimate expression of subjectivity, and discussing the degree to which one likes a particular show is all about taste, I think this should go without saying. So far, I'm not even sure if anyone in this thread has tried to present their reactions as some sort of objective fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironbomb
When we start to go with "what ifs", we only end up with an infinite number of possibilities.
And what would be wrong with that?


Off-topic:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathkillz
Wonder how much hell I can raise if I went over to haruhi forum and called it medicore XD (honest opinion is that it is way over hyped).
If you can offer some interesting perspectives on why you think Suzumiya Haruhi is mediocre, it might spark some interesting discussion (as long as people don't misconstrue the meaning of "mediocre"), but I doubt it'll be a big deal. On the other hand, if you just claim that it's over-hyped, then I doubt it'll accomplish very much.
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Last edited by 4Tran; 2008-01-03 at 01:48. Reason: Oops... I couldn't even get Renji's name straight.
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Old 2008-01-03, 01:06   Link #1500
Sol Falling
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
heh. If we're sharing favourite moments, I've got something of a weird one.

At the very start of the series, episode 1, Renji spends some time talking about how he'd always imagined himself to be a knight who fought valiently to save a princess. He's also looking at a career interest survey during that scene. A couple moments later, Renji speaks (as in, outside of a narrative voice) for the first time:

"it seems I didn't make it. what should I do?"

I'm not all too sure what he meant by that line, but the thought that struck me at the time was that Renji was saying he had just missed his chance in life. Like, I mean, his meaning, his purpose, what he was set on earth to do. That's what I thought he meant, so the way he said those lines was just profoundly funny to me. It was profound because of the careless conviction with which he said "it seems I didn't make it", like he somehow knew exactly what he was meant to do, and that he knew for certain that he had failed, missed his chance, with no alternate course forthcoming. It was funny when in response to what would be for me an immeasurable loss, he asked in a slightly whiny, gently distressed voice, to nobody in particular, "what should I do?". It was relaxing, refreshing, in a really personal way.

mm, I just watched it again. Well, I guess I'm just sharing this moment with you guys.

edit: well, since it seems I was a bit slow in connecting my 'favourite moment' to the post that mentioned them, I'll comment a bit on the discussion going on.

I'm no connosoire of melodramas, so I really can't say anything about how the show worked in terms of the conventions and standards of that form. If I take 'melodrama' to mean 'emotion', though, then I can say I agree that not all the scenes, perhaps the most meaningful ones, resonated with me on that level. I guess I'll echo 4tran's descriptor 'empty' in that I understood that emotion on an intellectual level, and perhaps went against the spirit of melodrama by applying that intellectual understanding to the character, presuming it consistent with earlier characterization, to enhance my empathy with the character themself?

By this I mean that in terms of melodramatic execution, I would call ef 'inconsistent' and perhaps generally 'ineffective'. But in terms of characterization and creating empathy for the characters (which I would describe as less about creating 'likable' characters and more about 'relatable' ones), ef performed strongly for me in several instances. Although I don't really buy into the happy ending hammered into thier personalities, for me ef's characters felt more real and believable than any other anime I can think of (and on this virtue, from my perspective blows Kyoani's Key adaptations out of the water) (although allegedly, according to other posters in this thread, my empathy is misplaced and contrary to the intention of ef's creators?). The breadth of my viewership is admittedly fairly limited (you've watched and ranked ef below 10 other fall 2007 anime? I couldn't even name 5) but I could not describe ef as anything like mediocre.

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2008-01-03 at 02:07.
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