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Old 2007-09-24, 02:48   Link #181
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by BBM View Post
About eternal readiness or striving for self-improvement? Well those are concepts that not every culture has or uses in the same way we do.
It is generally not considered to be a good thing when a culture / organization lacks these qualities. Why don't you just nod and admit "The TSAB sucks"?
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Old 2007-09-24, 06:40   Link #182
Estavali
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Originally Posted by BBM View Post
About eternal readiness or striving for self-improvement? Well those are concepts that not every culture has or uses in the same way we do.
Just popping in to comment on this statement. Too many empires in Chinese history (and no doubt those of other nations) has shown that when the military stops improving and evolving, the country/establishment suffers. And when the authorities don't pay attention to internal and external threats, they are simply asking for trouble and will always get it. The Qing was just one obvious example.

When anything stops improving, it stagnates and rots to oblivion.
When any nation doesn't keep its eyes open and weapons ready, it opens itself to invasion and destruction.

I frankly do not understand how does improvement and ever-readiness differ from culture to culture. The underlying concept for self-improvement should be very simple: learn, not only from mistakes (both yours and those of others) but also from successes as well, understand what had led to those mistakes/victories, improve if possible, and apply. Rinse and repeat. And ever-readiness is even simpler: keep your eyes open and don't sleep.

If there are any differences, it might be in the manner that different people use to apply these simple but crucial ideas.

Me 2 cents.

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Old 2007-09-24, 07:44   Link #183
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Lets take Europe and China of the past centuries as example.

China: Slow to improve, a lack of threats and very conservative.
Europe: Constant conflict with a high cultural focus on improvement.


Now TSAB has more in common with old China, they do keep a ready force, but there hasn't been any real incentive to improve. Also they have a bias against the use and study of lost logica, which further limits improvement.


If people want to say "The TSAB sucks" Go right ahead, but think about why they turned out that way.
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Old 2007-09-24, 07:56   Link #184
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One would think that looking at the sad fate of China will help those TSAB dolts learn their lesson without having to experience it themselves. I'm sure other historical examples are somewhere in their lexicon.
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Old 2007-09-24, 08:16   Link #185
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There have always been examples in history whenever the enviroment allows it.

But the drive for improvement is more then an idea. It is also nearly a state of mind, for you must: not think too highly of yourself (no arrogance), be willing to invest and allow people to express their ideas.
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Old 2007-09-24, 08:52   Link #186
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One would think that the constant reminders of a greater power that created the Lost Logia will have been a nice motivating factor.
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Old 2007-09-24, 09:06   Link #187
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They believe that to be forever lost.
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Old 2007-09-24, 09:16   Link #188
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Originally Posted by aldw View Post
One thing the Germans had to their advantage was the 200 years of proven battle knowledge to ground their combat thinking and analysis, while the TSAB has who knows what behind it. The Prussian Staff system first arouse due to the near annihilation of the Prussian forces during Jena and its aftermath, which necessitated the total reconstitution of the Prussian Army. They were very fortunate to have military reformers such as Scharnhorst and Gneisenau to oversee changes, but the closest person to that I can think of in the TSAB is Chrono.
I'm well aware of how the original Prussian General Staff emerged. A General Staff is of no use to the TSAB without a central body of doctrine. My post was about steps the TSAB could take towards drawing the appropriate lessons learned from its combat experience and developing a more effective junior officer/NCO corps. If you want different examples, think of the US Army in the 1980s or the Soviet Army 1941-45.

The TSAB has wasted 150 years so far. The sooner it starts taking the study of tactics seriously, the better, and the Cradle battle is as good a place as any to start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by von Seeckt
"It is absolutely necessary to put the experience of the war in a broad light and collect this experience while the impressions won on the battlefield are still fresh and a major proportion of the experienced officers are still in leading positions."
...
a). What new situations arose in the war that had not been considered before the war?
b). How effective were our pre-war views in dealing with the above situations?
c). What new guidelines have been developed from the use of new weaponry in the war?
d). Which new problems put forward by the war have not yet found a solution?"
What do we know about existing TSAB training and standards?

Four is a small sample size to work with to judge Nanoha's effectiveness as an instructor but the failures do begin to add up. From what we've seen of the Forwards in combat, the TSAB's training standards must be particularly low or Nanoha may not be such a great instructor. Did Teana turn out well because of or in spite of Nanoha?

There is also Hayate who went through command training and seems to have emerged worse at actual command. BBM has already conceded that TSAB training sucks.

What about TSAB leadership?

Episodes 17 and 21 speak for themselves.

Just what is the TSAB actually competent at?

Even if the TSAB's only task was to locate Lost Logia, its poor capabilities at investigation, intelligence gathering and SIGINT mean that the TSAB will have problems finding those Lost Logia in a timely manner if it finds them at all.
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Old 2007-09-24, 10:00   Link #189
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
My post was about steps the TSAB could take towards drawing the appropriate lessons learned from its combat experience and developing a more effective junior officer/NCO corps. If you want different examples, think of the US Army in the 1980s or the Soviet Army 1941-45.
They can do von Seckt all they want, but frankly, I don't think an analysis, given their lens, will do much more than further exhort the recruitment of mages and AMF training.

Further, the event will inevitably be averaged against the rest of their experience.

Quote:
Four is a small sample size to work with to judge Nanoha's effectiveness as an instructor but the failures do begin to add up. From what we've seen of the Forwards in combat, the TSAB's training standards must be particularly low or Nanoha may not be such a great instructor. Did Teana turn out well because of or in spite of Nanoha?
To be fair to Nanoha, maybe you are judging her using the wrong ruler. Nanoha's job is a 戦技教導官. Wiki translates it as "Tactical Instructor", but that's really inaccurate - Combat/Martial Arts Instructor is the more accurate translation. A "tactical instructor" would be 戦術教導官, a level higher up in the way that the operational is higher than the tactical, and definitely a different field.

A Combat Instructor is kind of like a Specialist trainer. Her job is to quickly identify strengths and weaknesses of people and try to improve their strengths. She has to teach the shooters how to be snipers, the brawlers how to be martial arts experts, and so on. In that sense Nanoha did well. Tactics or moral-psychological conditioning is probably outside her purview.

She might teach Teana how to shoot faster and more accurately, with greater power, but teaching her how to use cover is a different purview.

But then, considering that her officer training was all of three months long, it is doubtful she is qualified to teach a lot of tactics anyway.
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Old 2007-09-24, 10:02   Link #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBM View Post
There have always been examples in history whenever the enviroment allows it.

But the drive for improvement is more then an idea. It is also nearly a state of mind, for you must: not think too highly of yourself (no arrogance), be willing to invest and allow people to express their ideas.
A state of mind it may be, but certainly one that can be cultivated and maintained, especially if it's motivated by the universal understanding that that death is basically a lack of positive growth. And stagnation leads to decline (it's like the law of gravity. If you don't keep going up, the only way to go is down. And stagnant water turns putrid very fast).

It is not as if the TSAB are the only one with supposed superior technological advances. The Jail Incident shows that rogue elements have the capacity to challenge their claim to power, with the proper support and funding. If Yuuno alone can help Nanoha train herself into a AAA magus capable of fighting an equally strong magus with far more combat experience, I seriously doubt if other cannot do the same.

It seems to be that the High Council may have suffered the illusion that the Midchildans have achieved all that can be achieved and all that remains is to make sure that this state doesn't change. This is a common mistake, and a common bane of all empires that has reached the zenith of their accomplishments, whether real or perceived.

There is no excuse for anything to allow their environments and circumstances dictate their need to improve. The TSAB was probably established to keep the peace, and also to keep people from misusing the LL. Since LLs can pretty much be found almost anywhere, with no restrictions as to who can use them, this reason alone should be motivating enough for TSAB to make sure that their forces are up to the task.

Quote:
They believe that to be forever lost.
This is laughable, and even more so if the TSAB believes itself. Within the matter of months, two kinds of LLs, the Jewel Seeds and the even more dangerous Yaten no Madousho surfaced in this little country called Japan, and what's more, in the very same town too! If something like this can happen ten years ago before the events in StrikerS, would the TSAB still think that the Lost Logia are indeed, lost? Let's not forget that part of the TSAB's responsibilities include the retrieval of LLs, as already shown in the first season. The TSAB knows that the LLs are out there, the question is how well are they prepared to retake them.
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Old 2007-09-24, 10:24   Link #191
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
They can do von Seckt all they want, but frankly, I don't think an analysis, given their lens, will do much more than further exhort the recruitment of mages and AMF training.

Further, the event will inevitably be averaged against the rest of their experience.
I presented the longer, more detailed post as an alternative to what the TSAB is currently doing since whatever the TSAB has been doing has resulted in what is is now.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=175

For its persistent and systematic inability to consistently draw the right lessons from its experience and its ineptitude at training its junior officers and NCOs into effective leaders, the TSAB has nothing to blame except for itself.

Quote:
To be fair to Nanoha, maybe you are judging her using the wrong ruler. Nanoha's job is a 戦技教導官. Wiki translates it as "Tactical Instructor", but that's really inaccurate - Combat/Martial Arts Instructor is the more accurate translation. A "tactical instructor" would be 戦術教導官, a level higher up in the way that the operational is higher than the tactical, and definitely a different field.
That is Nanoha's normal job. Her job in RF6 seemed to have added responsibilities. As CO of RF6, Hayate is responsible for RF6's combat readiness but it is Nanoha who was handling the actual training. Nanoha was responsible for training the Forwards to be ready for combat deployments and that clearly did call for tactical training.

Quote:
But then, considering that her officer training was all of three months long, it is doubtful she is qualified to teach a lot of tactics anyway.
Nanoha was also in of command Stars squad which makes her doubly responsible for Stars squad's combat readiness.
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Old 2007-09-24, 15:11   Link #192
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Originally Posted by Estavali View Post
A state of mind it may be, but certainly one that can be cultivated and maintained, especially if it's motivated by the universal understanding that that death is basically a lack of positive growth. And stagnation leads to decline (it's like the law of gravity. If you don't keep going up, the only way to go is down. And stagnant water turns putrid very fast).
It isn't just black and white. The TSAB is going for the slow, slow advancement. For they know that reckless advancement leads to disaster, just look at the pre-TSAB history.
And I have a feeling that their history books will show that this incident as another example of pushing to far and put the blame at the TSAB high command.

Quote:
It is not as if the TSAB are the only one with supposed superior technological advances. The Jail Incident shows that rogue elements have the capacity to challenge their claim to power, with the proper support and funding.
However as far as we know there aren't any other governments and the only reason that Jail wasn't caught sooner is because the TSAB higher ups covered for him.
That isn't a normal situation.

Quote:
If Yuuno alone can help Nanoha train herself into a AAA magus capable of fighting an equally strong magus with far more combat experience, I seriously doubt if other cannot do the same.
She is an ace, Yuuno hit the in one in a billion shot. It isn't normal.

Quote:
Since LLs can pretty much be found almost anywhere, with no restrictions as to who can use them, this reason alone should be motivating enough for TSAB to make sure that their forces are up to the task.
Truely dangerous LL are rare. And TSAB forces are usually up to the task in controling it, and when they aren't they resort to the Arc cannon.
A very basic/simple strategy, which works in normal cases.

Quote:
This is laughable, and even more so if the TSAB believes itself. Within the matter of months, two kinds of LLs, the Jewel Seeds and the even more dangerous Yaten no Madousho surfaced in this little country called Japan, and what's more, in the very same town too! If something like this can happen ten years ago before the events in StrikerS, would the TSAB still think that the Lost Logia are indeed, lost?
I thought that you were talking about the source of lost logica, which is indeed lost or they wouldn't be called lost logica.
So what were you talking about?
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Old 2007-09-24, 17:07   Link #193
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Originally Posted by BBM View Post
It isn't just black and white. The TSAB is going for the slow, slow advancement. For they know that reckless advancement leads to disaster, just look at the pre-TSAB history.
And I have a feeling that their history books will show that this incident as another example of pushing to far and put the blame at the TSAB high command.
I agree with you that reckless advancement leads to disaster. But can "slow advancement" excuse any organisation from taking at least adequate measures to handle disasters? In fact, we can argue that the scope of their responsibilities demands that the TSAB must have a practical and proven approach to dealing with insurgents and LL-related criminals, as well as the various forms of muscle (in terms of technology, military strength and diplomatic capability) required to support their methods. In a way, they have forced themselves into a situation where they cannot afford to loss out to anyone. In the StrikerS manga chapter 3, we learn from Chrono and Verossa's conversation that the TSAB is already having a very hard time maintaining peace not only in the various administrated worlds, but also in Midchilda Proper itself. And one major contributor to their problems are the LLs themselves and any fool who would misuse them.

(There are times when governments rely on the reputation of their military to make sure people listen to them. Uncivilised as it may seem, the threat to use force is often referred over the actual deed, since it helps to prevent unnecessary causalities.)

And it's not slow advancement in terms of technological and military growth that plagues the TSAB. Our friends here have repeatedly pointed out the holes in the TSAB's way of doing things. And recently we are also hinted how bad their manpower management may be, with Mirificus pointing out that both Alto and Vice could have performed better in other postings compared to what they were assigned to at the start of the season. The inability to recognise talent seems to be an ongoing thing in the TSAB, and even Hayate herself laments the fact that the TSAB regards elite magi or Rare Skill Users of her like to be no more but convenient tools, and they may not even be assigned to a posting that would bring their talents to full play. Is this not sad, not only to the magi in question, but also the TSAB itself?

Also, I don;t quite understand how future historians will regard this as an example of "pushing too far". Who pushed what too far?

Quote:
However as far as we know there aren't any other governments and the only reason that Jail wasn't caught sooner is because the TSAB higher ups covered for him.
That isn't a normal situation.
Agreed.

Quote:
She is an ace, Yuuno hit the in one in a billion shot. It isn't normal.
True.

However, I must add that being rare does not equate to being impossible. And a team of well-trained A-ranked or even B-ranked magi terrorists (equivalent to the Armed Troopers) can still post a sizable threat.

Imagine a squad of Tiana Lansters, equally cunning, ruthless and well-equipped in the hands of one like Scaglietti or worse.

Quote:
Truely dangerous LL are rare. And TSAB forces are usually up to the task in controling it, and when they aren't they resort to the Arc cannon.
A very basic/simple strategy, which works in normal cases.
We don't really know if dangerous Lost Logia are really that rare. To be fair, we also don't know otherwise, but one of the fundamentals behind disaster preparation is to assume the worst scenario, which in our case would lead us to classify all LLs as dangerous. From the above mentioned conversation in StrikerS chapter 3, we also learn that the inappropriate use of LLs has already lead to the destruction of many worlds. Judging from this, we can safely say that our pessimistic assumption should not be off by much.

Quote:
I thought that you were talking about the source of lost logica, which is indeed lost or they wouldn't be called lost logica.
So what were you talking about?
Oops, my apologies. I thought you were talking about the LLs themselves, and not Al Hazard.


I apologise if this seems rather incoherent.
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Old 2007-09-24, 18:24   Link #194
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Originally Posted by Estavali View Post
I agree with you that reckless advancement leads to disaster. But can "slow advancement" excuse any organisation from taking at least adequate measures to handle disasters?
Depends if those disasters could have been forseen.

Quote:
In fact, we can argue that the scope of their responsibilities demands that the TSAB must have a practical and proven approach to dealing with insurgents and LL-related criminals, as well as the various forms of muscle (in terms of technology, military strength and diplomatic capability) required to support their methods.
Come and arrest them, if unsuccesfull, blow it up. I think that they usually have enough firepower to deal with the usual problem, but just not enough mages/ships.

Quote:
Is this not sad, not only to the magi in question, but also the TSAB itself?
Yep, the TSAB is quite full of itself. With stupid rules such limiting firepower in an unit and forbidding key personel from carrying their devices during a meeting. But that makes only sense if they are more afraid of internal rebellion then of being attacked by an outside force.

Quote:
Also, I don;t quite understand how future historians will regard this as an example of "pushing too far". Who pushed what too far?
The original cause of this situation are the TSAB brains. They created Jail and supported him so that he could give them advanced combat technology so that their power would grow.

Quote:
Imagine a squad of Tiana Lansters, equally cunning, ruthless and well-equipped in the hands of one like Scaglietti or worse.
Painfull, but it also limits them to, rare, upper level opponents that can support such advanced devices.

Quote:
We don't really know if dangerous Lost Logia are really that rare. To be fair, we also don't know otherwise, but one of the fundamentals behind disaster preparation is to assume the worst scenario, which in our case would lead us to classify all LLs as dangerous.
Then why allow an auction? As seen in the first part of StrikerS?
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Old 2007-09-24, 18:31   Link #195
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One point about the TSAB...

In the real world, we don't have any examples of "too much progress". There are no examples of a society having progressed technologically to the point where that technology destroyed them; we can talk about global warming, and we certainly have myths of such societies, but there are no actual historical occurrences of that. It's GOOD to be more advanced than the other guy.

This is plainly not true for the TSAB. The events that destroyed Al Hazard or whatever you want to call it were plainly civilization-altering for them. The TSAB as a government is considerably younger than the United States, and the "mythological" period of the Velka Saints isn't any older than the later colonization period of our world, where we have extensive historical knowledge. Frankly, they got kicked in the collective balls, really hard. Getting too powerful, too successful, too advanced in their structure is a very, very bad thing that will bring the whole structure crashing down on everybody.

SF is full of civilizations that progress to a point and then kind of coast - they make advancements here and there, but not at the breakneck pace we're used to these days. Eventually you've got all the stuff you reasonably want, your people are pretty happy, and you're the only one left developing more powerful weaponry - why go past that point and threaten your current happy existence?

Of course, the TSAB has to deal with a lot of Lost Logia, some of which are genuinely dangerous to their entire civilization. This means they can't just put the guns down, as it were, but they can't afford to make the same mistake again just to counter the old threat...

Finally, it's hard to evaluate the TSAB in light of the context of a magical girl show, even if it is Nanoha. We had a small army and a super-battleship defeated by a freakin' squad, folks, with a bit of local forces for backup. Clausewitz and Rommel and even Sun Tzu simply fail in the face of that kind of power imbalance. The only things we can really conclude are that there are certainly a bloody lot of people in the TSAB, and Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate aren't the new Three Admirals (well, maybe they aren't), so theoretically the rest of them should be something more than useless. And for all we know, they are - Chrono, for example, kicked a lot of ass personally, back in A's. But obviously there's something in the structure of their training and organization that is preventing the cream from rising to the top...

...or it's entirely possible that the naval forces simply co-opt the best officers and the ground forces are the dregs that can't manage the prestige foreign postings. Again with the Imperial Britain model - there's no glory belonging to the rag-tag army that's holding the ground that nobody can invade because the navy's doing the real job of defense. You don't rise socially or politically with an army commission - unless that's the best you can manage, in which case you're already at a disadvantage compared to the dashing heroes of the navy. And the TSAB has it even worse, because they don't have an India (that we know about)... they aren't really imperialists, so there's no foreign places for that army to be deployed to in order to get some battle experience and honors.
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Old 2007-09-24, 19:16   Link #196
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It isn't just black and white. The TSAB is going for the slow, slow advancement. For they know that reckless advancement leads to disaster, just look at the pre-TSAB history.
We are not even talking technology here, but basic tactics. Since they apparently had warfare in the past, tactics (and operational art, and strategy, and basic SIGINT philosophy) had not only stagnated, but regressed.

Quote:
And I have a feeling that their history books will show that this incident as another example of pushing to far and put the blame at the TSAB high command.
If that's so, then that's another case of them coming to the wrong solutions. Technology aside, the scenario on the tactics level is basicaly about a division (corps?) level force with Heavy Air Support managing to assemble in relative secrecy, and an emergency defense being laid by the TSAB. Fortunately for them, the droids apparently weren't even advancing to try to overrun the line (see Ep24)

Quote:
However as far as we know there aren't any other governments and the only reason that Jail wasn't caught sooner is because the TSAB higher ups covered for him.
If they had proper SIGINT, they'd have located his little den the moment he started talking to Lutecia back in Ep7.

Quote:
She is an ace, Yuuno hit the in one in a billion shot. It isn't normal.
Nice just asserting the probability.

Quote:
Truely dangerous LL are rare. And TSAB forces are usually up to the task in controling it, and when they aren't they resort to the Arc cannon.
When solutions like blowing away 100 million natives are acceptable to the Midchildrans, "up to the task" takes on a whole different (lower) meaning.
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Old 2007-09-24, 19:54   Link #197
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There's Seasons 1 and 2. You might notice that Asura had to be specially outfitted with the Arcenciel in response to a clear threat. Even with Chrono's fleet, according to you, there were only 6 ships seen firing (I'd check Ep26 tonight for myself when I get home). IIRC, there were more than 6 ships in Chrono's fleet, so this means that not every ship was armed.
On one hand we have a sample size of a one-ship patrol that ends up defending a backwater world.

On the other hand, we have at least six ships of a completely different class defending Midchilda. Even if we presumed that Chrono has other ships in his fleet that are unarmed, it really changes nothing as a navy with non-trivial force projection capabilities will usually have more auxiliary ships than warships. The greater the firepower and range of a fleet, the greater the logistical train it entails. What was really notable was that the TSAB had both the means and the will to concentrate six ships armed with conventional weapons (by TSAB standards) into a single task force against a single target and have them attack it in concert. The weapons they were using are clearly far more precise than Arc-en-ciel. If it was truly a last ditch effort, the TSAB could simply have accepted the collateral damage of an Arc-en-ciel-class weapon which brings us back to the original quotes regarding the TSAB Navy.

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Originally Posted by BBM View Post
The ships mostly serves as a mode of transport and if the mages don't win, then they blow the lost logica up. They seem to have the wrong weapons or lack of them for any real military action.
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Read the quote, I am talking about the design itself and how the TSAB uses it. The cannon is a last ditch option. And will be used on things that are just too dangerous to remain in this universe.
There little evidence upon which to make any conclusions with regards to the design intent of the class of ship Chrono used to destroy the Cradle, let alone its primary missions. It may very well be a transport but we weren't shown any evidence of that. In fact, we haven't seen them transport anything.

It seems pretty difficult to reach the conclusion that the and primary role of those six ships, as originally designed, is as a mode of transport for mages unless you had already assumed that they were transports.
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Old 2007-09-24, 21:44   Link #198
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On one hand we have a sample size of one ship patrolling a backwater world.
I'd argue that a lone ship patrol, far away from support, should be assigned to a ship with at least some armament to allow it to handle a wider range of missions without screaming for help. Obviously, you'd keep your battleships (if the TSAB has any) close to home, but you'd send your frigate, not an unarmed ship. Unless all you have on regular duty are unarmed ships.

But then, maybe we could be optimistic and say that the TSAB Sailing Force Staff learned that ships need to be armed thanks to YnS.

Quote:
On the other hand, we have world that the TSAB has a vested interest in defending. Even if we presumed that Chrono has other ships in his fleet that are unarmed, it changes nothing as navies with non-trivial force projection capabilities usually have more auxiliary ships than warships.
They are sortieing in this case for three hours, not three months. I'm guessing they just grabbed everything that would steam on short notice.

Quote:
There is very little evidence upon which to make any conclusions with regards to the design intent of the class of ship Chrono used to destroy the Cradle, let alone its primary missions. It may very well be a transport but we weren't shown any evidence of that. In fact, they weren't shown to transport anything.

How would you reach the conclusion that the six ships are transports unless you had already assumed that their primary role is as a transport?
He probably did it by averaging the pacifistic historical evidence. Personally, I suspect that the armament on the six ships were hastily grafted on by some combination of Lindy, Leti and Chrono (perhaps with the 3 Admirals helping out) over the previous week as a contingency measure.

They may not know that the Doc was prepping a ship, but the cannons will be useful against a large range of contingency measures. To support this, for all the supposed confusion at Sailing Force HQ, Chrono's fleet did sortie pretty fast - the Cradle sortied, and almost immediately Chrono's fleet sortied. Given the usual readiness status of the TSAB (they take 3 hours just to prep 40 mages to the point when they could travel, and organizing a ship for combat is more complex than a platoon), for them to have moved so fast suggested they had already been on maximum alert and specially prepped, rather than random armed ships being suddenly called to action.

As for the mages, I'd strongly suspect every mage that could be crammed onto the ships were in fact there. In the event, there was nothing to do by the time the fleet arrived but to scuttle the Cradle, but assuming a worst case scenario where RF6 was decimated (as nearly happened), the mages will be needed for a wide range of possible duties, from new teams to assault the Cradle from the inside (maybe Chrono will then get his sorry a*s off his chair), to assisting with the drones down below.

As it is, a large force of mages will be helpful for the post-battle cleanup.
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Old 2007-09-24, 22:22   Link #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I'd argue that a lone ship patrol, far away from support, should be assigned to a ship with at least some armament to allow it to handle a wider range of missions without screaming for help. Obviously, you'd keep your battleships (if the TSAB has any) close to home, but you'd send your frigate, not an unarmed ship. Unless all you have on regular duty are unarmed ships.

But then, maybe we could be optimistic and say that the TSAB Sailing Force Staff learned that ships need to be armed thanks to YnS.
No argument with that.

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They are sortieing in this case for three hours, not three months. I'm guessing they just grabbed everything that would steam on short notice.
Unless I'm mistaken, that would imply that any other TSAB ships in Chrono's fleet are transporting some kind of reserve force, are tasked with evacuating Midchilda, are capable of providing some kind of active support or that the TSAB is sending empty ships with no real capabilities for no particular reason.

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He probably did it by averaging the pacifistic historical evidence.
Which would give trends. In the absence of evidence, there is no reason to simply assume the trend held true. Even more so when potential evidence to the contrary presents itself. Confirmation bias is a logical fallacy.

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Personally, I suspect that the armament on the six ships were hastily grafted on by some combination of Lindy, Leti and Chrono (perhaps with the 3 Admirals helping out) over the previous week as a contingency measure.
Maybe.

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They may not know that the Doc was prepping a ship, but the cannons will be useful against a large range of contingency measures. To support this, for all the supposed confusion at Sailing Force HQ, Chrono's fleet did sortie pretty fast - the Cradle sortied, and almost immediately Chrono's fleet sortied. Given the usual readiness status of the TSAB (they take 3 hours just to prep 40 mages to the point when they could travel, and organizing a ship for combat is more complex than a platoon), for them to have moved so fast suggested they had already been on maximum alert and specially prepped, rather than random armed ships being suddenly called to action.

As for the mages, I'd strongly suspect every mage that could be crammed onto the ships were in fact there. In the event, there was nothing to do by the time the fleet arrived but to scuttle the Cradle, but assuming a worst case scenario where RF6 was decimated (as nearly happened), the mages will be needed for a wide range of possible duties, from new teams to assault the Cradle from the inside (maybe Chrono will then get his sorry a*s off his chair), to assisting with the drones down below.

As it is, a large force of mages will be helpful for the post-battle cleanup.
That would be the rational thing to do but then the TSAB is hardly a rational actor.
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Last edited by Mirificus; 2007-09-24 at 23:35.
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Old 2007-09-25, 09:20   Link #200
BBM
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Now the main question is: How would the TSAB recover from this? But taking into account the in-universe factors such as culture.
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