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Old 2007-10-01, 12:04   Link #221
Jimmy C
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk
It has the potential to, but does not necessarily "decide" their life, any more than the implants ultimately decided Subaru and Ginga's lives.
That's because they had parents that gave them a life beyond unending conflict. Do you think their original creator would have given them any choice as to their fate? Likewise, if the TSAB started adjusting natural births, with or without consent, it's going to want as many of those children turned into Combat Cyborgs as possible.

Quote:
Many things are being increasingly mandated for the public good. Not so long ago, education wasn't mandatory. Now it is. Most of us consider this a good thing. It does not necessarily mean a "dictatorial regime" in the conventional, perjorative sense.
Education can be used in many areas that directly or indirectly benefit a society. The adjustments for producing Combat Cyborgs has only one purpose, to turn people into war machines. Every adjusted person who refuses to fight represents wasted resources.

Quote:
In fact, from the public good angle, the whole Inherent Skills program provides a great equalizer to partially roll over the last great inequality in Midchildran society - that is, the gulf between elite mages, normal mages, and normals.
Not really. We don't know enough about how Inherent Skills work. The Numbers, for example, have only one IS each. Ginga and Subaru may each have two, depending on whether Wing Road is one. But even the least talented of mages can learn more than 2 spells. Worse, ISes appear to be fixed. Changing the IS of a Combat Cyborg may be more difficult than installing the new IS on another Cyborg. While ISes can be optimized like a mage can improve their ability to cast a spell, a mage can learn new spells while a Combat Cyborg can't get new ISes. Let's not bring the fact that Subaru and Ginga are mages into this. The whole point of this exercise is turning a larger percentage of the non-mage population into a viable fighting force.

Quote:
Why does yes = "end up short on recruits". There seems to be no shortage of recruits. There is a shortage of talented recruits.
Are you thinking in terms of how the police and military recruit from a natural (non-adjusted) population? That's like panning for gold in a river, they take what they can get. If the TSAB adjusts its population to create Combat Cyborgs, it's more like setting up a factory to produce machines to specification. In such a situation, the aim will be to produce the maximum quantity that meets the specification. Those that don't, are wasted effort.
Take this situation, the TSAB puts up the resources to adjust 1,000 fetuses, but only 600 of the resulting children are willing to become Combat Cyborgs. That means 40% of the resources have been wasted. You might be tempted to compare this to training, but that would be wrong. In any training and screening system, it is expected that a percentage of the candidates will not meet expectations. But when you're actively adjusting the candidates, you know you can reach the point where 100% of the candidates are acceptable, if only they wouldn't refuse to continue with the program...

Quote:
In fact, recruitment might rise when people realize maybe it isn't such a death trip to be a TSAB recruit once you have greater Inherent Skill capability.
I'd have to say that being a TSAB recruit presently is no more a "death trap" than any other dangerous occupation in mid-childa. True, I don't have any stats, but it can't be as bad as, say, being a U-boat crewman in WW2...

Then you talk about indoctrination, training and morale. Those can be applied to non-adjusted recruits too. Properly done, that can lead to a small mage army that is more effective than a larger Combat Cyborg army.
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Old 2007-10-01, 12:05   Link #222
Anh_Minh
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BBM: Depends on what's involved in the alteration of the fetus. People don't like to think of themselves as animals to be husbanded, but they want what's best for their kids.

If a minor prenatal surgical procedure can give them an edge later in life, I believe a good part will go for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
That's because they had parents that gave them a life beyond unending conflict. Do you think their original creator would have given them any choice as to their fate? Likewise, if the TSAB started adjusting natural births, with or without consent, it's going to want as many of those children turned into Combat Cyborgs as possible.
Yeah, but even so, the TSAB can settle for what it can get. They don't actually need an army of Combat Cyborgs right now.



Quote:
Education can be used in many areas that directly or indirectly benefit a society. The adjustments for producing Combat Cyborgs has only one purpose, to turn people into war machines. Every adjusted person who refuses to fight represents wasted resources.
Subaru did well in a "disaster relief unit", whatever it is. There are non-combatant roles that could use physically enhanced people. (Though I agree that a Combat Cyborg paper pusher wouldn't be better than a normal paper pusher...)



Quote:
Not really. We don't know enough about how Inherent Skills work. The Numbers, for example, have only one IS each. Ginga and Subaru may each have two, depending on whether Wing Road is one. But even the least talented of mages can learn more than 2 spells. Worse, ISes appear to be fixed. Changing the IS of a Combat Cyborg may be more difficult than installing the new IS on another Cyborg. While ISes can be optimized like a mage can improve their ability to cast a spell, a mage can learn new spells while a Combat Cyborg can't get new ISes. Let's not bring the fact that Subaru and Ginga are mages into this. The whole point of this exercise is turning a larger percentage of the non-mage population into a viable fighting force.
I agree that Combat Cyborgs aren't necessarily worth the effort. It's hard to say without running some numbers, and we can't do that. However, an IS can provide an edge. It may not make a normal person the equal of an elite mage, but it may turn a non-mage person into a good opponent for even a better than average mage, or a mediocre mage into an excellent fighter.


Quote:
Are you thinking in terms of how the police and military recruit from a natural (non-adjusted) population? That's like panning for gold in a river, they take what they can get. If the TSAB adjusts its population to create Combat Cyborgs, it's more like setting up a factory to produce machines to specification. In such a situation, the aim will be to produce the maximum quantity that meets the specification. Those that don't, are wasted effort.
Take this situation, the TSAB puts up the resources to adjust 1,000 fetuses, but only 600 of the resulting children are willing to become Combat Cyborgs. That means 40% of the resources have been wasted. You might be tempted to compare this to training, but that would be wrong. In any training and screening system, it is expected that a percentage of the candidates will not meet expectations. But when you're actively adjusting the candidates, you know you can reach the point where 100% of the candidates are acceptable, if only they wouldn't refuse to continue with the program...
Yes, so consent will have a big bill associated to it. It doesn't mean it makes the thing completely inviable.

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2007-10-01 at 12:19.
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Old 2007-10-01, 12:33   Link #223
panzerfan
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Nanoha StrikerS simply leave too much questions out in the open, leaving so many posters here making assumptions. The entire situation has become rather, a theoretical exercise instead of a sound assessment of TSAB.

I am not denying any of the points raised here, but... we don't even know whether or not if TSAB is basically a sole military superpower that plays a political role or that it is a military that exists under a governing body. There is no mentioning of whether or not if TSAB is a 'true' democratic armed forces, despite how that its apparent existence is to safeguard the citizens of the member worlds of TSAB. With even purpose being an uncertainty, everything here becomes mere assumptions to the organization's behavior and any suggestion to better manage it a mere exercise.

Leaving that aside, there exists a question of whether or not if one can consider a flat, horizontal management model for military... conventional military has always been a pyramid, where the authority stems from top to bottom. However, with more and more company and field officers being professional and wanting to be empowered, and work under the modern corporate management model of empowered workteam, flexible deployment, work schedule, and job rotation, making the military becoming close to its corporate counterpart if they have their way.

Edit 1: A real-life case where a defense force is reeling from the corporate lures for talent would be the Japanese SDF. The bureaucracy that ran it finds itself being constantly outpaced by the civilian sector, and to make matters worse, given that its members maintain civilian status within their tenure, the organization can't retain people. I suppose the issue of a 'competitive military' not in the terms of its combat modifier, but in terms of its organizational vigor is what one needs to evaluate.
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Last edited by panzerfan; 2007-10-01 at 12:52.
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Old 2007-10-01, 13:35   Link #224
BBM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
BBM: Depends on what's involved in the alteration of the fetus. People don't like to think of themselves as animals to be husbanded, but they want what's best for their kids.
Of course they won't call it that. But I can see them giving incentives to highly talented mages.

I think that the offspring of TSAB mages have a higher chance of being born with more potential and are more likely to join the TSAB. In the long run such a program can really pay off.

Quote:
If a minor prenatal surgical procedure can give them an edge later in life, I believe a good part will go for it.
Minor? I thought that the genetic changes need to be preformed during the embryonic stage.
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Old 2007-10-01, 13:45   Link #225
Anh_Minh
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Then it's going to be even more minor, won't it?
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Old 2007-10-01, 14:39   Link #226
BBM
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Then it's going to be even more minor, won't it?
It depends, it likely done outside the womb. So it would be minor for the mother but not for the embryo.
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Old 2007-10-01, 18:09   Link #227
Avatar_notADV
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And again we run into the different nature of the modern military versus the Midchildan military.

One of the major elements of the Mid military has to be absorption of mages into hierarchical command. It's not designed to weed out the unsuitable, but to keep them IN (as opposed to out on the street causing trouble, blowing up inconvenient streets/cities/planets/dimensions.) Strong mages get officer treatment because, in the end, Mid can't afford to wash them out. Not only are they short on competent personnel, but every ex-mil or never-mil mage is a threat to some degree or other. Putting Joe AA Blow into a unit in which he becomes a useless fop is infinitely superior to having Joe out there creating his own little army, brainwashing and molesting women freely, finding undiscovered planets and enslaving the primitive population... you get the idea, huh?

Our military can sacrifice individual careers for combat efficiency. Mid has a much nastier trade-off decision to make. Take Hayate, who by US standards is a pretty crummy Lt. Colonel. Should she be retired? If it was a US unit, sure. But for Mid, retiring Hayate is equivalent to decommissioning a capital ship... and giving it to its old captain and pissing him off to boot! Of course they're willing to take a lot more crap from their personnel.

As far as the ethics of the situation go, remember that the US considered area bombing of cities and unrestricted submarine warfare to be barbaric as late as WWI; yet twenty-five years later we were doing it harder than anybody had ever done it before in WWII. (Yes, you can envision a Mooninite middle finger there if you like.) Sometimes a distasteful tactic is just so darned effective that you pick it up too.
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Old 2007-10-01, 19:26   Link #228
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post

As far as the ethics of the situation go, remember that the US considered area bombing of cities and unrestricted submarine warfare to be barbaric as late as WWI; yet twenty-five years later we were doing it harder than anybody had ever done it before in WWII. (Yes, you can envision a Mooninite middle finger there if you like.) Sometimes a distasteful tactic is just so darned effective that you pick it up too.
Personally i don't believed in the so call rules of engagment during a war.

As Sherman Said during the American Civil War:

"If the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war, and not popularity seeking. "

and

"War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over. "

And

"War is hell"
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Old 2007-10-01, 19:51   Link #229
Mirificus
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I need to catch up. You guys jumped ahead without me Here are my thoughts so far:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
If the TSAB pulls their head out of their ass (and having a significant chunk of your leadership eliminated can be conducive to that), they'll be forming a lot of Riot Force 6s. A couple of veteran aces, a few promising rookies, a punishing training regimen, and you have a fast reaction force you can count on to hold the line while the big formations form up. Special forces, basically?
How and why would that happen? They've already disbanded the original unit and scattered the personnel instead of rotating personnel through the unit gradually. The TSAB GF doesn't seem to have any real interest in having permanent combined arms teams.

Quote:
Hayate's in a good position now, though. Commanding a successful action with inadequate forces will do that for you, and she was already ahead of the curve in rank and power, with her own "young Turks" to do the dirty work of training and occasionally boot a head or two. Sure, she isn't Rommel reborn, but take our own military history - very few American generals have been fantastic geniuses, and most of the winners got to be that way because they learned and demonstrated how to properly deploy superior forces to achieve victory.
The American army did have a number of talented administrators like McNair who was instrumental with respect to, "think the difference between US Army training in the '30s and in 1942." Hayate may be in a decent position politically but intellectually and mentally she is a useless wreck thanks to the writers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
How are they gonna "develop like-minded officers", when they don't have the right "first-mover" developers. Even if they decide they are gonna change, it is questionable whether they have, at present anyone (never mind whether said person has the various types of prestige to get everyone to listen) with the talents and knowledge to develop a General Staff that would be worth a darn.
I said they needed someone like that but I never said that the TSAB is currently in possession of one. If such officer did emerge from the TSAB it would be a freak accident and they would likely be treated as a dangerous nuisance like Hayate.

Quote:
Chief of General Staff "We need to review our COMSEC procedures so we don't keep getting bushwhacked by people with SIGINT capabilities."
General Staff collective: "What's COMSEC?"
Chief of General Staff resigns in disgust.
Which is why the timeline could easily extend to decades

Quote:
At this point, the only two paths I can see for real reforms (I'm actually assuming they are interested) in TSAB are:
1) Invasion or occupation by enemy power, who might just reform the TSAB as a puppet army. Unfortunately, no such enemy powers are in sight. Besides, they would probably just disband the whole institution and start over.
2) Acquire required talent from what may be the last reserve of them in Known Spacetime - the Terrans in the 97th Unadministered World. Bribe retired generals. Smuggle officers into various Terran military academies and Higher Schools. At this point, you don't have to be picky. Even the Military Academy of Zambia would probably be helpful. Of course, post-graduation and a short duration of service, smuggle them back to study the TSAB and institute reforms.
As we both know, that would be a very big assumption. Events that should have resulted in pressure to reform have had no real effect.

I was envisioning option two more or less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The TSAB is currently like a military with only three (arguably two) choices. Light infantry (and they don't even have RPGs, just pistols), a pitifully small "tank corps" and then it is a small number of nukes. This leads to many unnecessary casualties. By increasing the "tank corps", casualties will be reduced.
What about the Air Force and Navy?

We don't really know much about the Air Force. We have one captain as an example and she is hardly fit to command a fire team. The lack of cooperation endemic to the TSAB seems to be affecting the Air Force as well.

On the other hand, the Navy seems to be far more competent than the other branches.

Quote:
Further, talented mages become so disproportionately important that even basic discipline might break down in appeasement efforts. Many have pointed out the difficulties in keeping a tight rein (a rein of correct strength) on talents like Nanoha and Fate, saying that they might be kicked out in a Terran military but will get their own way thanks to the fact the TSAB cannot afford to piss them off. In other words, talented mages are a law unto themselves. How this is "ethical" or good for Midchildran society is difficult to describe.
One of the main problems is that each of those mages individually represent almost a third of even of a battalion-sized (by TSAB standards) unit's combat power.

Quote:
A proper indoctrination program, as well as the very natural human tendency to obey authority (Milgram), does much to reduce this risk (and of course, there's Ginga / Lutecia style brainwashing if you are unethical and need an emergency backup).

It is true that conscript troops tend to be somewhat less motivated than voluntary ones. However, we are talking a massive difference in combat power. Otto, Wendi, Deed and Novu are effectively newbie conscripts with no great morale (see how fast they sold out Scarlietti in Ep26 and decide to "turn for good") - they even use drilled maneuvers!

Are you really going to tell me that the TSAB Main Defense Line will take them just because the TSAB Main Line is made of "well motivated voluntary troops with initiative" versus the "conscript line running on battle drills"?

And if you use Ep16 as any indication, even the guards chosen to secure GF HQ don't have great morale in the face of adversity. Ep23 shows that regular troops are capable of shooting and little else (those jerking idiots in the sky are purely laughable) - they are so comprehensively trained.... Surely, a good indoctrination and training program will, even with conscripts, provide a much more motivated and capable force.

Even conscript troops can be reasonably motivated if the war is going well - the trouble is when they start losing or face clearly overwhelming odds. By increasing their capability, the percentage of times when the war goes well for them increases.
The way Nanoha, Fate and Hayate were each handling their units and coupled with the lack of individual cooperation and cooperation between RF6 tactical subunits indicates that the TSAB GF doesn't really have any real doctrine in the conventional military sense, as a standard set of procedures, collective knowledge and wisdom.

I would like to make sure that we all have the same definition of doctrine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combined Arms in the Twentieth Century
An army needs to accomplish many tasks in order to produce effective battlefield interaction. Orchestrating a battle requires organization and doctrine; training, command, control, and communications; and motivation. No army achieves perfection in all these areas; victory often goes to the side that is less efficient and that makes fewer mistakes.

Organization and doctrine together reflect how an army expects to fight. The wartime organization of land forces must be sufficiently flexible to respond to the ever-changing confusion of battle with an appropriate mixture of weapons and soldiers. Yet the best military structure is useless if its members lack some shared terminology and concepts of how that organization will function. That shared understanding is called doctrine. Doctrine in the military sense of the term is not rigid or dogmatic; however; it simply provides a common set of procedures and a frame of reference for dealing with the unique sense of each tactical situation. Indeed, doctrine cannot be dictated from the top of a the military hierarchy - soldiers at every level must both understand the doctrine and believe that they can apply it with the personnel and equipment available
This is the current US Army conception of doctrine,

Quote:
Originally Posted by FM-100-5 Operations
Doctrine is the statement of how America’s Army, as part of a joint team, intends to conduct war and operations other than war. It is the condensed expression of the Army’s fundamental approach to fighting, influencing events in operations other than war, and deterring actions detrimental to national interests. As an authoritative statement, doctrine must be definitive enough to guide specific operations, yet remain adaptable enough to address diverse and varied situations worldwide.

Spoiler for The Role of Doctrine:
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Last edited by Mirificus; 2007-10-02 at 11:49.
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Old 2007-10-01, 20:48   Link #230
Mirificus
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Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
Nanoha StrikerS simply leave too much questions out in the open, leaving so many posters here making assumptions. The entire situation has become rather, a theoretical exercise instead of a sound assessment of TSAB.
It is true that we don't have a complete picture of the TSAB. For one, we know next to nothing about the TSAB Air Force's roles, organization and capabilities.
Quote:
I am not denying any of the points raised here, but... we don't even know whether or not if TSAB is basically a sole military superpower that plays a political role or that it is a military that exists under a governing body. There is no mentioning of whether or not if TSAB is a 'true' democratic armed forces, despite how that its apparent existence is to safeguard the citizens of the member worlds of TSAB. With even purpose being an uncertainty, everything here becomes mere assumptions to the organization's behavior and any suggestion to better manage it a mere exercise.
The quantity and nature of the evidence gives us more accurate pictures in some areas of the TSAB than others and sometimes none at all. We do, however, have a fair bit of evidence upon which to base theories about certain aspects of the TSAB.

Any reasonable theory should both reflect the evidence and be falsifiable. Contradictory evidence must be taken into account. If a different theory or a simpler theory does a better job of explaining all of the available evidence then your theory probably should be tossed out altogether. With sufficient evidence and testing of predictions, if you haven't done anything wrong, you should end up with a workable model. Further evidence and predictions will refine the rough model. The more accurate the model you end up with, the more accurate will be your predictions. This will give you probabilities rather than assumptions.
Quote:
Leaving that aside, there exists a question of whether or not if one can consider a flat, horizontal management model for military... conventional military has always been a pyramid, where the authority stems from top to bottom. However, with more and more company and field officers being professional and wanting to be empowered, and work under the modern corporate management model of empowered workteam, flexible deployment, work schedule, and job rotation, making the military becoming close to its corporate counterpart if they have their way.

Edit 1: A real-life case where a defense force is reeling from the corporate lures for talent would be the Japanese SDF. The bureaucracy that ran it finds itself being constantly outpaced by the civilian sector, and to make matters worse, given that its members maintain civilian status within their tenure, the organization can't retain people. I suppose the issue of a 'competitive military' not in the terms of its combat modifier, but in terms of its organizational vigor is what one needs to evaluate.
Any country with a strong economy and an all volunteer force has to deal with those kinds of issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Personally i don't believed in the so call rules of engagment during a war.

As Sherman Said during the American Civil War:

"If the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war, and not popularity seeking. "

and

"War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over. "

And

"War is hell"
Yes, war is hell but there is no reason to make it any worse than it needs to be. Even if you disregard personal morals, having your troops and commanders commit, what they consider to be, atrocities tends to be very bad for their morale, which has a direct impact on combat power. As a bonus, you will end up with troops that are much more likely to carry out atrocities on their own initiative.
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Last edited by Mirificus; 2007-10-01 at 21:22.
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Old 2007-10-01, 21:12   Link #231
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
That's because they had parents that gave them a life beyond unending conflict.
So you agree that the option is there, and that just being made "IS-compatible" (I hate using "Combat Cyborg" because it ignores the more peaceful potential uses of IS tech in general) by itself doesn't commit people to Lifetime Military Service.

Quote:
Do you think their original creator would have given them any choice as to their fate?
1) Considering that the original creator also had to keep them secret, no.
2) That suggests a problem with the creator, who is influenced by Factor 1 in addition to all the other factors, not the technology or concept. The Lifetime Military Service part can be scrapped.

Quote:
Likewise, if the TSAB started adjusting natural births, with or without consent, it's going to want as many of those children turned into Combat Cyborgs as possible.
They Want does not equal They Get, at least not Everything. I presume there is still some modicum of Civilian Control.

Quote:
Education can be used in many areas that directly or indirectly benefit a society. The adjustments for producing Combat Cyborgs has only one purpose, to turn people into war machines. Every adjusted person who refuses to fight represents wasted resources.
Actually, other ISes that will help them in their civilian occupation could potentially be installed. The TSAB won't benefit, but society would.

Quote:
Not really. We don't know enough about how Inherent Skills work. The Numbers, for example, have only one IS each. Ginga and Subaru may each have two, depending on whether Wing Road is one. But even the least talented of mages can learn more than 2 spells. Worse, ISes appear to be fixed. Changing the IS of a Combat Cyborg may be more difficult than installing the new IS on another Cyborg. While ISes can be optimized like a mage can improve their ability to cast a spell, a mage can learn new spells while a Combat Cyborg can't get new ISes. Let's not bring the fact that Subaru and Ginga are mages into this. The whole point of this exercise is turning a larger percentage of the non-mage population into a viable fighting force.
I'm not saying that IS-technology, at present, is a complete substitute for magic. But it does do much to fill the gap.

I think you are also underestimating the flexibility of the average Inherent Skill drive, even in its current generation. It has been rather consistently demonstrated that while the drive is optimized for the Inherent Skill, most have enough flexibility for some secondaries. All the flying Numbers' IS-drive, for example, clearly support Flight as an extra to their main IS. Tre and Sette could make energy balls. Cinque could shield as well as use Rumble Detonator. Novu clearly has a variety in his IS, from small shooting balls to kicking to Aerial Rave. Otto managed to quickly break free of Shamal's bind the hard way (though he was trapped in the end). Wendi's IS (most likely to be standardized for Midchildran combat doctrine) is a highly flexible thing that covers the entire shooting range - if they can work in Flight using her Body instead of the Surfboard she nearly has the complete basic set.

Heck, according to Subaru, you can just do your regular magical attack using the IS-drive with no correction, so that means, just by installing a generic IS-drive, non-mages can not only use the IS (and the secondaries), but be able to learn and execute magic to some extent. Talk about an Equalizer! I'm holding out hope for next-generation ISes as well...

The whole point of this exercise is not only to turn the non-mages, but also the wimp mages, which between them make up over 90% of the population, into something at least semi-competitive.

Quote:
Take this situation, the TSAB puts up the resources to adjust 1,000 fetuses, but only 600 of the resulting children are willing to become Combat Cyborgs. That means 40% of the resources have been wasted. You might be tempted to compare this to training, but that would be wrong. In any training and screening system, it is expected that a percentage of the candidates will not meet expectations. But when you're actively adjusting the candidates, you know you can reach the point where 100% of the candidates are acceptable, if only they wouldn't refuse to continue with the program...
Compare that to the sad present situation. We take the time to train and arm 1000 eager recruits, but all of them put together probably can't beat 10 Combat Cyborgs, or an equivalent (or lesser) number of decent mages. This massive differential allows a lot of inefficiency to be tolerated in the Combat Cyborg program in the name of Human Rights and still come out ahead.

Quote:
I'd have to say that being a TSAB recruit presently is no more a "death trap" than any other dangerous occupation in mid-childa. True, I don't have any stats, but it can't be as bad as, say, being a U-boat crewman in WW2...
Well, if your definition of a Death Trap is that narrow... in any case, I'm sure employment rates will rise if casualty rates fall, and the easiest way is to increase average capability.

Quote:
Then you talk about indoctrination, training and morale. Those can be applied to non-adjusted recruits too. Properly done, that can lead to a small mage army that is more effective than a larger Combat Cyborg army.
Again, Nakajima's 308th (which is already among the better battalions in the Ground Forces - at least they aren't running away on the sight of Gadget Drones) versus the Numbers. That's already a "large mage army" vs a "small Combat Cyborg army". Who are you putting your money on.

It is clear that the TSAB, at present, at best has shaky training in combat and moral-psychology. SO what's the best way to keep up morale? By increasing average capability. Even with mediocre training and morale, soldiers will advance on order if things are on their side. There is no gurantee even the best conditioned troops won't crack when the odds are against them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
I need to catch up. You guys jumped ahead without me Here are my thoughts so far:

How and why would that happen? They've already disbanded the original unit and scattered the personnel instead of rotating personnel through the unit gradually. The TSAB GF doesn't seem to have any real interest in having permanent combined arms teams.
He said that's what they could do, not that that's what the TSAB did. To be fair, it may have been impossible to find voluntary substitutes. Bs with sharply protruding specialties aren't always available, not to mention elites willing to self-shaft.

Quote:
Hayate may be in a decent position politically but intellectually and mentally she is a useless wreck thanks to the writers.
Who knows. Maybe in Season 4, they could have her unit get wiped out, and she can study tactics while recovering from PTSD. (Not that it'd happen but we can dream).

Quote:
I said they needed someone like that but I never said that the TSAB is currently in possession of one. If such officer did emerge from the TSAB it would be a freak accident and they would likely be treated as a dangerous nuisance like Hayate.
Realistic plans start with what the force has. When you start talking about the German Troop Office and General Staff, I keep thinking - let's first plan their acquisition of someone with the required talent (I'm not even thinking yet about how they can move him to the right spot once they get him).

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What about the Air Force and Navy?

We don't really know much about the Air Force. We have one captain as an example and she is hardly fit to command a fire team. The lack of cooperation endemic to the TSAB seems to be affecting the Air Force as well.
The nukes at present are completely in the hands of the Navy (I can kinda understand why Reggie wants Einhajar). THe HQ currently holds the Guards Tank Regiment, and the rest of the Tank Corps is split into hopeless penny packets in the Navy and Air Force. Regarding the Air Force, I hate to say it but I count most of them as Light Infantry. What else can you call them when 3 and 7 downed a squadron (minimum) of them in maybe 10 seconds...

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On the other hand, the Navy seems to be far more competent than the other branches.
True. They are the only branch that even has hope.

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One of the main problems is that each of those mages individually represent almost a third of even a battalion-sized unit's combat power.
That's one of the reasons I support the Combat Cyborg program - increased combat capability in the grunts will alleviate this problem somewhat.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Subaru did well in a "disaster relief unit", whatever it is. There are non-combatant roles that could use physically enhanced people. (Though I agree that a Combat Cyborg paper pusher wouldn't be better than a normal paper pusher...)
There is an IS called "Flawless Secretary".

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I agree that Combat Cyborgs aren't necessarily worth the effort. It's hard to say without running some numbers, and we can't do that. However, an IS can provide an edge. It may not make a normal person the equal of an elite mage, but it may turn a non-mage person into a good opponent for even a better than average mage, or a mediocre mage into an excellent fighter.
We do have some approximate numbers. 3 fireteams of them managed to neutralize the defenses of three heavily guarded bases.

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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
And again we run into the different nature of the modern military versus the Midchildan military.
Quite frankly, the nature to which you mention is not a good one.

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One of the major elements of the Mid military has to be absorption of mages into hierarchical command. It's not designed to weed out the unsuitable, but to keep them IN (as opposed to out on the street causing trouble, blowing up inconvenient streets/cities/planets/dimensions.) Strong mages get officer treatment because, in the end, Mid can't afford to wash them out. Not only are they short on competent personnel, but every ex-mil or never-mil mage is a threat to some degree or other. Putting Joe AA Blow into a unit in which he becomes a useless fop is infinitely superior to having Joe out there creating his own little army, brainwashing and molesting women freely, finding undiscovered planets and enslaving the primitive population... you get the idea, huh?

Our military can sacrifice individual careers for combat efficiency. Mid has a much nastier trade-off decision to make. Take Hayate, who by US standards is a pretty crummy Lt. Colonel. Should she be retired? If it was a US unit, sure. But for Mid, retiring Hayate is equivalent to decommissioning a capital ship... and giving it to its old captain and pissing him off to boot! Of course they're willing to take a lot more crap from their personnel.
I actually take this as an argument for more sentoukijin. You can't shaft resigned officers (though maybe we can make a case for Permanent Limiters on equivalents of Dishonorable Discharges) without violating human rights. However, by increasing the average capability of the force, the TSAB improves its ability to arrest and deter such dangers, and thus would feel less "blackmailed" by such officers.

I think the TSAB already made the correct compromise - return her to being a Special Investigator at end of tour, and be very cautious about giving her another chance.

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Old 2007-10-02, 00:47   Link #232
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I actually take this as an argument for more sentoukijin. You can't shaft resigned officers (though maybe we can make a case for Permanent Limiters on equivalents of Dishonorable Discharges) without violating human rights. However, by increasing the average capability of the force, the TSAB improves its ability to arrest and deter such dangers, and thus would feel less "blackmailed" by such officers.

I think the TSAB already made the correct compromise - return her to being a Special Investigator at end of tour, and be very cautious about giving her another chance.
the question would then be how the hell are you going put this on a SS+ mage like Hayate. i mean 9 yr old AAA Nanoha was more capable then a a platoon of A class enforcers. If hayate doesn't agree to to the limiter any attempt to force would mean the destruction of half the planet and Hayate would probably still win.

I think the only thing the TSBA could do about AAA level mages and above would be put them behind a desk pushing paper and signing forms. Keeps them out of the way until you need them to blow up a planet.
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Old 2007-10-02, 01:02   Link #233
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
the question would then be how the hell are you going put this on a SS+ mage like Hayate. i mean 9 yr old AAA Nanoha was more capable then a a platoon of A class enforcers. If hayate doesn't agree to to the limiter any attempt to force would mean the destruction of half the planet and Hayate would probably still win.

I think the only thing the TSBA could do about AAA level mages and above would be put them behind a desk pushing paper and signing forms. Keeps them out of the way until you need them to blow up a planet.
Er...

There is so much ignorance and bias in this post, I'm not even sure where to start.

Anyway... put it this way. Any half-decent air mage with good aerial dog-fighting and melee skills can best Hayate one-on-one. Even A-ranks can beat Hayate. An AA rank old woman once bested 9 year old AAA rank Fate and Nanoha together at the same time. Regius clearly made it canon that TSAB has more than one SS rank mage, even if none in Ground Forces. Hayate, Fate and Nanoha combined don't even have the destructive power to flatten a city.

Nanohaverse is much bigger than the what the anime shows us.
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Old 2007-10-02, 01:35   Link #234
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Er...

There is so much ignorance and bias in this post, I'm not even sure where to start.

Anyway... put it this way. Any half-decent air mage with good aerial dog-fighting and melee skills can best Hayate one-on-one. Even A-ranks can beat Hayate.
True, and that will be all Hayate's own fault.

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An AA rank old woman once bested 9 year old AAA rank Fate and Nanoha together at the same time. Regius clearly made it canon that TSAB has more than one SS rank mage, even if none in Ground Forces. Hayate, Fate and Nanoha combined don't even have the destructive power to flatten a city.

Nanohaverse is much bigger than the what the anime shows us.
Unfortunately, the first experience is almost certainly closed by now - it is possible but it'd take a huge skill disparity which is far more unlikely nowadays compared to ten years ago. There's also the point that it was, ultimately, a drill and not life and death. Drills favor Skill over Power.

Instead, it opens up the nasty possibility regarding the 2nd. Before, the canon position is that the Ranks are almost positive indicators of combat coefficient, so at least you can be assured that if the other SS can be called, he'd be at least an even match. Now we don't. For all we know, Nanoha and Fate have the real combat coefficient to whip the others, considering how unpracticed they are.

I mean, it is only like those crack HQ SS and S mages just show up instantly whenever trouble appears, such as when their capital is in mortal danger. Wait ... that didn't happen...

In fact, I wonder whether the real truth is that all the S and SS in HQ had been dead or combat ineffective for the previous decade, and they've been quietly burying this fact while the High Council tries to whip up some Artificial Mages and Sentoukijin to fill that spot...
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Old 2007-10-02, 01:46   Link #235
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Unfortunately, the first experience is almost certainly closed by now - it is possible but it'd take a huge skill disparity which is far more unlikely nowadays compared to ten years ago. There's also the point that it was, ultimately, a drill and not life and death. Drills favor Skill over Power.
Undeniable, especially more so for Nanoha who being an elite instructor, needs a solid combination of experience, skill, etc to work effectively. But this doesn't dispute the fact that even though they are arguably the next generation of TSAB's finest, they are not necessarily the peak of TSAB, in an untouchable realm. It also goes to show age doesn't really destroy a potential force by much.

Besides, Xellos was using comparison with their AAA-rank one, so I used a similar one.

Heck, for all we know, any one of the 3 Legendary Admirals can whip the Aces down, considering that they were implied to be the most gold of the golden generations and the most experienced as well.

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Instead, it opens up the nasty possibility regarding the 2nd. Before, the canon position is that the Ranks are almost positive indicators of combat coefficient, so at least you can be assured that if the other SS can be called, he'd be at least an even match. Now we don't. For all we know, Nanoha and Fate have the real combat coefficient to whip the others, considering how unpracticed they are.

I mean, it is only like those crack HQ SS and S mages just show up instantly whenever trouble appears, such as when their capital is in mortal danger. Wait ... that didn't happen...

In fact, I wonder whether the real truth is that all the S and SS in HQ had been dead or combat ineffective for the previous decade, and they've been quietly burying this fact while the High Council tries to whip up some Artificial Mages and Sentoukijin to fill that spot...
Well, it's hard to say. But seeing Regius's complaints left and right, I'd presume it's pretty grating to him.

But even then, the High Council hid things from him, so...

I mean, looking at how pissed off Regius is, it's like for every Zest in GF, there is another 10 for the Navy/HQ. Well, I don't see them. Then again, maybe they were comfortably stationed, one to 2 SS-rank each in those fleet of XV class ships...
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Old 2007-10-02, 04:49   Link #236
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
Undeniable, especially more so for Nanoha who being an elite instructor, needs a solid combination of experience, skill, etc to work effectively. But this doesn't dispute the fact that even though they are arguably the next generation of TSAB's finest, they are not necessarily the peak of TSAB, in an untouchable realm. It also goes to show age doesn't really destroy a potential force by much.
Actually, I find it more likely that the Old Woman's rank has been reduced due to her old age. At her prime, she was probably a AAA or even S, but as she aged, her endurance (first to fall in the old) went down. That would make her victory easier to explain - she could use the short bursts of high power she still has to win, but be unable to maintain the power long enough to defeat the AAA course anymore.

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Besides, Xellos was using comparison with their AAA-rank one, so I used a similar one.

Heck, for all we know, any one of the 3 Legendary Admirals can whip the Aces down, considering that they were implied to be the most gold of the golden generations and the most experienced as well.
They might, but frankly I'm afraid the effort will kill them.

Admiral Miffie: "Divine ... Cough, cough, cough, cough, cough, cough ... urk!"

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Well, it's hard to say. But seeing Regius's complaints left and right, I'd presume it's pretty grating to him.

But even then, the High Council hid things from him, so...

I mean, looking at how pissed off Regius is, it's like for every Zest in GF, there is another 10 for the Navy/HQ. Well, I don't see them. Then again, maybe they were comfortably stationed, one to 2 SS-rank each in those fleet of XV class ships...
Here was what I said on this subject in the Ep23 (or thereabouts) thread.

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Just to take our attention from MGLN StrikerS bashing for a bit (I'm joining the side that wants a dedicated MGLN Post-Mortem/Criticism thread)...

How many people think that Regius is actually rather ignorant of the real situation of the Navy. He thinks that all the good mages are grabbed by HQ and the Navy and they are disproportionately endowed with elite mages. Superficially this is true, until you think of it a different way:

He has Zest, a rank S. If we assume he has no other S- or at least AAA-ranks, he already has 1 elite mage for a planet. That's not bad. The Navy looks like it has 1 elite mage per company/ship, so it looks like a much higher concentration, but given the area they cover and the enormous (not) number of high-ranking mages we saw in totality, they might well be averaging out at much less than 1 elite mage per planet, so Regius is hardly being shafted at all here!
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Old 2007-10-02, 06:02   Link #237
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Actually, I find it more likely that the Old Woman's rank has been reduced due to her old age. At her prime, she was probably a AAA or even S, but as she aged, her endurance (first to fall in the old) went down. That would make her victory easier to explain - she could use the short bursts of high power she still has to win, but be unable to maintain the power long enough to defeat the AAA course anymore.
How so? As white belt taekwondo I can easilly beat red or green belt ones in spars and drills, even though they technically have a 'higher rank' then me. Reason? I had far more experience then them, I simply didn't bother to take the exams. Those very same rules can easilly be aplied here.
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Old 2007-10-02, 06:41   Link #238
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Experience only goes so far, if the opponent is faster and stronger then their odds aren't that great.
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Old 2007-10-02, 07:08   Link #239
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
How so? As white belt taekwondo I can easilly beat red or green belt ones in spars and drills, even though they technically have a 'higher rank' then me. Reason? I had far more experience then them, I simply didn't bother to take the exams. Those very same rules can easilly be aplied here.
In other words, you effectively "falsified" your grade in the opposite direction, which is not IMO quite the same thing.
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Old 2007-10-02, 08:56   Link #240
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In other words, you effectively "falsified" your grade in the opposite direction, which is not IMO quite the same thing.
You make it sound like I actually did it to gain something out of it.

But explain how it is not? Just because someone doesn't take the exam for a higher level, or doesn't practice the moves required for that higher level (I stil don't know the higher-tier tai-gu's) doesn't mean they can't win against someone who simply has more experience.
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