AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Nanoha

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2007-10-02, 08:56   Link #241
Flar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
I mean, looking at how pissed off Regius is, it's like for every Zest in GF, there is another 10 for the Navy/HQ. Well, I don't see them. Then again, maybe they were comfortably stationed, one to 2 SS-rank each in those fleet of XV class ships...
This is one of the many inconsistency in the Nanohaverse, on multiple levels, if you think about it.

I mean, both manga and anime made clear that rank isn't everything. In the manga we see Fate and Nanoha losing to lower ranked mages (Chrono and the headmaster), in the anime we get a lot of fights where the theoretical strongest loses (Fate, Signum, Vita, Reinforce) and StrikerS stresses that by introducing the strikers/aces categories, where strikers are not strong but are skilled and experienced and thus capable of winning over stronger foes.

So... Why would Regius, or anyone, want a SS mage so bad? A highly trained special corp of A or even B mages would be much more efficient and flexible. That's the basic idea behind the numbers who, individually, are really weak one-trick ponies, but can be a threat with their skills, as a team.

On the opposite, it seems to me that it is better for SS mages to become solo investigators on the outskirts of the empire, or to be concentrated in one elite squad (What RF6 should have been) to deal with space-time big threats, not to be used for police work. Teaming SS with A or B would slow down the SS and put the lower rank in danger, due to the difference in tactics involved. Mobility, attack or defense are just not compatible. You don't team a tank or a copter with a F14.


Also, about Inherent Skills, aren't they just what each cyborg is skilled at doing with his inner cyborg energy? It's not as if it could not be replicated with linker core energy, which Subaru proves with Wing Road. AMFs are pretty remarkable in that they can block some magic energy emission but not all, speaking about that.

Considering that, if there was any war brewing, or if I was in charge of building an elite unit, I would look into mages who can use magic under AMF conditions, and who are trained well enough not to be one trick ponies like the numbers. If the numbers could have used simple binds, transference magic, or ranged magic, while still specializing in whatever their IS is, they would have been deadly. Just drop a magic nullification field on the target with your team and the enemy mages are done for.
Flar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-10-02, 10:42   Link #242
Jimmy C
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by flar
Also, about Inherent Skills, aren't they just what each cyborg is skilled at doing with his inner cyborg energy?
Although it's not explicitly stated how the Numbers got their IS. I believe it's hardware based. They were built with the IS integrated into them. My hunch is based on Subaru's flashback at 14.30 in ep23. It's like she already knows what her IS is and what it can do.
Jimmy C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-10-02, 11:29   Link #243
Flar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Although it's not explicitly stated how the Numbers got their IS. I believe it's hardware based. They were built with the IS integrated into them. My hunch is based on Subaru's flashback at 14.30 in ep23. It's like she already knows what her IS is and what it can do.
Yes, I think the writers had planned to have her angst about the correct use of power. She has a lethal weapon, but she wants to save people, so she ends up using Belka emulation to control her power. In the end she would certainly have been put in a situation where she has to choose killing for the greater good, or not, of course. Her fight with Ginga had potential in that area, but the writers blew it.

Anyway, I agree that IS are hardware based, the same way than a bullet fred from a gun is hardware based, but it doesn't mean that Caro (for example) cannot fire something as lethal with her magic. In the end, it's just a crippling specialisation when fighting mages under normal conditions, and the only way it can be useful is when an external AMF device robs the mage opponent of all his powers.

I was thinking... If Wing Road is an IS, then an IS can be powered/emulated by conventional magic, so the reverse is most likely true, non-IS magic can be powered by "cyborg" energy and thus be usable under AMF conditions.
Since cyborg energy is hardware based, a little R&D could yield a device/BJ add-on that creates that energy either from cartridges, from hardware or from converted linker core magic. You could have mages impervious to AMF.
With even more R&D on AMFs, it seems to me the army could create a sort of selective scrambler, too. Since IS clearly still create magical stuff (if Wing Road isn't magic, what would it be? Real steel, glowing blue?), then it follows that AMFs only scramble one kind of magic, so by fine tuning it, you could surely make it so it disrupts cyborgs, or maybe even one style of magic and not the other. It has some serious tactical possibilities.
Flar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-10-02, 11:47   Link #244
BBM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Or it could be that IS magic is more cohesive.
BBM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-10-02, 12:58   Link #245
Mirificus
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
He said that's what they could do, not that that's what the TSAB did. To be fair, it may have been impossible to find voluntary substitutes. Bs with sharply protruding specialties aren't always available, not to mention elites willing to self-shaft.
Disbanding RF6 isn't quite as bad as it could be since so little of it was able to operate well together. At its best, it operated in pairs and its officers seemed to have no idea of how to cooperate together nor how to get RF6's tactical subunits to work together. It really highlights the ineffectiveness of TSAB tactical doctrine if it exists at all.

The "balanced" squads never really made much sense because half of each squad had such superior mobility, firepower and protection than the other half. In fact, RF6 didn't have enough organic transport to transport the forward component of each squad at the same time separately anyways.

It would have been possible to have the forwards operate together as one subunit and use at least four of the Aces as the other but then they so rarely trained like that. When they did train like that, the training wouldn't have been terribly useful to the Aces since the forwards were overmatched. Training isn't nearly as effective if you don't train the way you would fight.

I'm almost certain I saw more cooperation between Nanoha and Fate in the original OP of Strikers than in the rest of the show all together.

Quote:
Who knows. Maybe in Season 4, they could have her unit get wiped out, and she can study tactics while recovering from PTSD. (Not that it'd happen but we can dream).
Well if we're dreaming anyways, then we may as well send her as an exchange officer to some Earth army, preferably one with recent combat experience. Better yet, have her start and complete officer training there.

Quote:
Realistic plans start with what the force has. When you start talking about the German Troop Office and General Staff, I keep thinking - let's first plan their acquisition of someone with the required talent (I'm not even thinking yet about how they can move him to the right spot once they get him).
The TSAB is really the last place to look for someone like that. They not only need talent but vision and lots of patience and one officer like that may not be enough.

Developing a staff and training cadre will go extremely slowly if they are working alone need to train each officer until the TSAB officers have learned the necessary knowledge and skill to teach others. Acquiring multiple talented officers with similar doctrinal backgrounds would save a lot of time and make them all less likely to burn out.

Quote:
The nukes at present are completely in the hands of the Navy (I can kinda understand why Reggie wants Einhajar). THe HQ currently holds the Guards Tank Regiment, and the rest of the Tank Corps is split into hopeless penny packets in the Navy and Air Force.
A reserve isn't a reserve if they never intend to employ it.

Quote:
Regarding the Air Force, I hate to say it but I count most of them as Light Infantry. What else can you call them when 3 and 7 downed a squadron (minimum) of them in maybe 10 seconds...
They were ineffective no matter what you call them. An air force that can't provide air superiority, strikes, reconnaissance, better air-ground cooperation or air lift is hardly an air force. If Nanoha and the aerial mages are exemplary of the rest of the TSAB AF then it may as well be merged into the GF.

Quote:
I think the TSAB already made the correct compromise - return her to being a Special Investigator at end of tour, and be very cautious about giving her another chance.
With the way they "commanded" their RF6 subunits, Nanoha and Fate probably should be watched as well, particularly Nanoha, since she is still in a teaching position where she can do the most damage. The TSAB is in really sad shape if they really are the best the TSAB has to offer from that generation.
__________________

Last edited by Mirificus; 2007-10-02 at 20:13.
Mirificus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-10-02, 13:52   Link #246
Jimmy C
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus
The TSAB is in really sad shape if they really are the best the TSAB has to offer from that generation.
To be fair, they're probably the best fighters the TSAB has right now. Command abilities nothwithstanding.
Now, Legend of Galactic Heroes, that's a show with capable commanders instead of mere fighters!

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk
When you start talking about the German Troop Office and General Staff, I keep thinking - let's first plan their acquisition of someone with the required talent
I had a scary thought. Such a person in the TSAB right now would be like letting the wolf into the henhouse. He (or she) would be so effective, the rank and file would worship the ground he walks on. With such support, he could take a position of total authority in the TSAB, and never let it go. Hail the Transdimensional Empire!
Well, it's all speculation. But I'd say they need a George Washington, not a Julius Ceasar. Someone who knows when to let go.
Jimmy C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-10-02, 14:00   Link #247
Nightengale
~Night of Gales~
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
To be fair, I don't think the Air Force even participated in any battles of StrikerS. They were supposed to be red-suit wearing like the ones Vita and Signum wear when training with one another. I don't see a single one of those redshirts at all in StrikerS, while we're treated to armor wearing blue vests, which are of the Ground Force's Air unit, not the actual Supreme Air Force.

And comparing Legend of Galactic Heroes and Nanoha? Somehow, that thought scares me as much as I would to see LoGH's story-telling elements in all anime, much less just Nanoha.
__________________
Night~and~Gale: ~ The Final Mythology of the Man who Defied Destiny.

The sleeping lion shall awaken beyond the depths of time, crossing ten billion lights, come to Terra.
Nightengale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-10-02, 14:33   Link #248
panzerfan
Name means little...
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: A town that has been showered by snow...
Age: 29
It's not a fair comparison in my opinion. Although... seeing a Yang Wenli in Nanoha series would be interesting.
__________________

It would be enough for the depressing things in life to only exist in reality.
It is because that I think the birth of a story... is from people dreaming of a happy ending. ~Misaka Shiori


panzerfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-10-02, 21:21   Link #249
Avatar_notADV
Once and Current Subber
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
We've already established that the team structure of RF6 can't possibly be justified by any military standard whatsoever. And that a lot of the problems of the TSAB are the same ones confronted by the Japanese SDF, which is a military organization that is not really a military organization. It's possible that we're seeing subtle social commentary, but about ten squintillion times more likely that the writers never thought that deeply about it, and that the TSAB looks like the JSDF because that's what the writers are familiar with (that is to say, the fact that it is a defective military organization is reflective of the same defects in the Japanese military, and the writers don't know military issues well enough to have realized this.)

It does hurt the integrity of the story, because Nanoha is supposed to be good at her job, and she definitely works hard enough, and she's NOT actually a complete moron. She is familiar with Earth history to the point where she'd know that it has a relatively rich military tradition to draw from, she's dedicated to her job enough that she'd have done the homework behind that (if not while she was a fighter, then definitely as a trainer!) and the mistakes she makes in training are not ones she could possibly make if she were familiar with modern Earth militaries even to a small degree. In other words, it's not credible that she'd have this huge blind spot, but she does, and it's not something that the writers can reconcile. (Kind of like how nobody ever comments on whether Nanoha and Fate are sleeping together. Or like in Zone of the Enders, where you can get through a 26-episode TV series with mecha with giant phallus-shaped projections and nobody even cracks a smile or a joke. Okay, but we don't BELIEVE it...)

The scary thing would be to wonder what would happen if Strikers HAD writers familiar with the military, and if Nanoha actually displayed the talents she gets credit for in that respect. Could be tough, because real militaries are not about drama; they are perfectly happy to ambush innocent and unsuspecting enemies at odds of ten to one and don't stop to think "aren't we overdoing this a bit?" Already Nanoha can punch through more or less any opposition solo - just how nasty would the enemy have to be, to give a tightly-knit squad of aces plus knights even a bit of challenge?
__________________
Latest project: Kannagi
Avatar_notADV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-10-02, 22:12   Link #250
arkhangelsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
We've already established that the team structure of RF6 can't possibly be justified by any military standard whatsoever. And that a lot of the problems of the TSAB are the same ones confronted by the Japanese SDF, which is a military organization that is not really a military organization. It's possible that we're seeing subtle social commentary, but about ten squintillion times more likely that the writers never thought that deeply about it, and that the TSAB looks like the JSDF because that's what the writers are familiar with (that is to say, the fact that it is a defective military organization is reflective of the same defects in the Japanese military, and the writers don't know military issues well enough to have realized this.)
Actually, I believe that they were shooting for not-so-subtle social commentary and flunked.

As a rule, they don't use the SDF rank system for anything they want to be even a semi-serious hypothetical military organization (the old WWII-era system is used). The moment I saw that Hayate was a Nitou Rikusa, I knew they were going for Social Commentary (which I don't mind) of the schizophrenic SDF.

Then there are those "Career" exams that Hayate took (parodies of the Japanese "career" system, one effect of which is to raise elite (Tokyo) university Law Faculty grads into the rank of Police Assistant Inspector without them having a shred of experience in police work).

Especially when the shop they went to for dinner looked ridiculously similar to a traditional Japanese diner - in fact Midchildra looks very much like anime Japan. Definitely Social Commentary here.

Of course, what actually came up was so disastrous that the SDF should rightfully sue 7Arcs for libel. It also destroyed the Social Commentary effect, because what came out was too implausibly incompetent to be a proper parody - it went from "They must be indirectly talking about the SDF" to "They must be talking about a completely new, totally incompetent organization called the TSAB."

Quote:
The scary thing would be to wonder what would happen if Strikers HAD writers familiar with the military, and if Nanoha actually displayed the talents she gets credit for in that respect. Could be tough, because real militaries are not about drama; they are perfectly happy to ambush innocent and unsuspecting enemies at odds of ten to one and don't stop to think "aren't we overdoing this a bit?" Already Nanoha can punch through more or less any opposition solo - just how nasty would the enemy have to be, to give a tightly-knit squad of aces plus knights even a bit of challenge?
This is easily solved. Nanoha currently needs to be able to "punch through any opposition solo" to make up for their total lack of tactical competence. When you don't have brains, you must use brawn. You just have to convert some of her Power Superiority into Tactical Superiority, and redo the show.
arkhangelsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-10-02, 22:25   Link #251
Mirificus
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
It does hurt the integrity of the story, because Nanoha is supposed to be good at her job, and she definitely works hard enough, and she's NOT actually a complete moron. She is familiar with Earth history to the point where she'd know that it has a relatively rich military tradition to draw from, she's dedicated to her job enough that she'd have done the homework.../quote]


(if not while she was a fighter, then definitely as a trainer!) and the mistakes she makes in training are not ones she could possibly make if she were familiar with modern Earth militaries even to a small degree.
I thought that they were trying to do exactly that with Hayate before they gave up on her. Perversely enough, they seemed to not only write her off half way through the season but also somehow found it necessary to cripple her magical powers and mental faculties.

Quote:
...behind that (if not while she was a fighter, then definitely as a trainer!) and the mistakes she makes in training are not ones she could possibly make if she were familiar with modern Earth militaries even to a small degree. In other words, it's not credible that she'd have this huge blind spot, but she does, and it's not something that the writers can reconcile. (Kind of like how nobody ever comments on whether Nanoha and Fate are sleeping together. Or like in Zone of the Enders, where you can get through a 26-episode TV series with mecha with giant phallus-shaped projections and nobody even cracks a smile or a joke. Okay, but we don't BELIEVE it...)
I do like your summary.

Edit: I forgot that they also managed to cripple Hayate physically as well again.
__________________

Last edited by Mirificus; 2007-10-02 at 23:14.
Mirificus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-10-02, 22:41   Link #252
arkhangelsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Well if we're dreaming anyways, then we may as well send her as an exchange officer to some Earth army, preferably one with recent combat experience. Better yet, have her start and complete officer training there.
Well, we do need a reason for why she might want to go on an exchange program to "some Earth army". Besides, "recent combat experience" would probably just mean US or Britain (even in ~2015). Sure, armies are probably fighting in Africa too but they won't be your choice.

Quote:
Developing a staff and training cadre will go extremely slowly if they are working alone need to train each officer until the TSAB officers have learned the necessary knowledge and skill to teach others. Acquiring multiple talented officers with similar doctrinal backgrounds would save a lot of time and make them all less likely to burn out.
Quote:
A reserve isn't a reserve if they never intend to employ it.
I'm thinking "Does the Guard Tank Regiment" even exist? That would explain the failure to deploy - it can't deploy if it has withered to nothing eons ago.

Quote:
They were ineffective no matter what you call them. An air force that can't provide air superiority, strikes, reconnaissance, better air-ground cooperation or air lift is hardly an air force. If Nanoha and the aerial mages are exemplary of the rest of the TSAB AF then it may as well be merged into the GF.
Well, at least they were fighting. Remember Ep16? The ground mages were doing nothing but running. At least the Air Unit had to be shot down. They both suck but we might as well choose the arm that at least fought to be dominant.

Quote:
With the way they "commanded" their RF6 subunits, Nanoha and Fate probably should be watched as well, particularly Nanoha, since she is still in a teaching position where she can do the most damage. The TSAB is in really sad shape if they really are the best the TSAB has to offer from that generation.
Unfortunately, they seemed to think Nanoha did a great job. She had to refuse a promotion!

To be fair, maybe the promotion to 3rd Air Commander would come with the billet of Tactical Instructor or Command School Instructor. In which case, her refusal is a selfless thing - after all, she does seem to be reasonably effective as a Martial Skills Instructor. Best to stick to what you know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flar View Post
This is one of the many inconsistency in the Nanohaverse, on multiple levels, if you think about it.

I mean, both manga and anime made clear that rank isn't everything. In the manga we see Fate and Nanoha losing to lower ranked mages (Chrono and the headmaster),
Actually, Chrono is of 1/3rd higher rank.

Quote:
in the anime we get a lot of fights where the theoretical strongest loses (Fate, Signum, Vita, Reinforce) and StrikerS stresses that by introducing the strikers/aces categories, where strikers are not strong but are skilled and experienced and thus capable of winning over stronger foes.
Actually, the manga and anime make very clear that rank is nearly everything. Good mages (or Numbers) consistently wipe the floor with even large groups of inferior combatants. A one-rank difference can be made up, but only with a huge experience gap (and as I've said before I'm guessing the headmaster's rank is being dragged down due to lack of endurance in old age - that is, she has one area that's disproportionately weak rather than a general inferiority). Above that and it becomes a complete wipeout scenario.

Quote:
So... Why would Regius, or anyone, want a SS mage so bad? A highly trained special corp of A or even B mages would be much more efficient and flexible. That's the basic idea behind the numbers who, individually, are really weak one-trick ponies, but can be a threat with their skills, as a team.
You are asking the wrong questions because you have dragged the wrong lesson from the show. See above.

Quote:
Also, about Inherent Skills, aren't they just what each cyborg is skilled at doing with his inner cyborg energy? It's not as if it could not be replicated with linker core energy, which Subaru proves with Wing Road. AMFs are pretty remarkable in that they can block some magic energy emission but not all, speaking about that.
Actually, it seems to be inverse. Linker core magic can be replicated with Cyborg Energy without formula correction. IS are further enhanced by appropriate support equipment.

Quote:
Considering that, if there was any war brewing, or if I was in charge of building an elite unit, I would look into mages who can use magic under AMF conditions, and who are trained well enough not to be one trick ponies like the numbers. If the numbers could have used simple binds, transference magic, or ranged magic, while still specializing in whatever their IS is, they would have been deadly. Just drop a magic nullification field on the target with your team and the enemy mages are done for.
Actually, IIRC, Otto could bind. Further, in principle, since magic can be replicated with Cyborg Energy with no correction, it is possible that all the Numbers could learn basic binding and other magic.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2007-10-03 at 02:13.
arkhangelsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-10-03, 20:10   Link #253
Avatar_notADV
Once and Current Subber
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
This is easily solved. Nanoha currently needs to be able to "punch through any opposition solo" to make up for their total lack of tactical competence. When you don't have brains, you must use brawn. You just have to convert some of her Power Superiority into Tactical Superiority, and redo the show.
Wait, but "Nanoha is teh awesome" is kind of written in to the show. That's her schtick. She didn't beat Fate because she was more experienced, she didn't beat Reinforce because she was more cunning. Nanoha wins because she just kicks ass better, and when she puts her head down and charges in, the other guys lose. Nanoha wins like Subaru won over Ginga, not like Teana won over the other Numbers. If that's not the show you wanna watch, that's cool, but that is what Nanoha is all about.

Doing that in the context of a competent military would be pretty tough. If they're full of people with Nanoha's abilities, then she's not special. If they're using her and Fate's and Hayate's potential to the fullest, then they're either steamrolling any possible opposition (which isn't fun after the first couple of times) or they're going up against something so GINORMOUS that the fans go "bullshit". Hell, even handled incompetently, Strikers had two fuggin' squads take out a super-magical relic battleship, and about a billion drones, while being 50% outnumbered by their opposition. And we're calling BS on that - part of the reason we're convinced that the TSAB is so incompetent is that they offered practically no help in Strikers. But sheeeee-it, what the hell would Nanoha and Fate and Hayate had to take on if they actually used their heads and got good backup and STILL had a rough time of it? Beggars the mind, really.

I don't think that the writers were trying to make commentary about the SDF, though. I mean, come on. Why did Subaru join the military? Because she wanted to save people; even after getting combat experience, she went into a disaster rescue unit. That's pure JSDF thinking, man, not the kind of thing you'd do if you were making a point that putting combat veterans in your disaster relief units is actually pretty stupid. (Then again, Japan isn't exactly blessed with an overabundance of combat veterans.)

The easiest explanation is still the best here. The writers wrote about the military they're familiar with; it turns out that is not, by our terms, a terribly good military. They obviously weren't interested in making that point specifically. Therefore, it makes sense to chalk it up to ignorance - the TSAB isn't a parody of the Japanese military, it's just a reflection, and the flaws we see in it are mirrors of flaws in the real thing, not exaggerated caricatures. (Hell, if anything the JSDF is even worse.)
__________________
Latest project: Kannagi
Avatar_notADV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-10-04, 21:16   Link #254
arkhangelsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Wait, but "Nanoha is teh awesome" is kind of written in to the show. That's her schtick. She didn't beat Fate because she was more experienced, she didn't beat Reinforce because she was more cunning. Nanoha wins because she just kicks ass better, and when she puts her head down and charges in, the other guys lose.
Actually, she never really beat Reinforce. She just did enough damage for Fate to make it out.

Her fight against Fate is actually a show of Technotactics, not blind leetness. She kept to where she was strong, covered her weaknesses, let her enemy exhaust herself, then brought up an unexpected reserve using the Technical Solution of Starlight Breaker recycling to win.

Nanoha is always portrayed as good, very good, even one of the best. But this whole Nanoha is teh awesome thing started in StrikerS, and it was entirely due to a fossilization of tactics.

Quote:
Nanoha wins like Subaru won over Ginga, not like Teana won over the other Numbers. If that's not the show you wanna watch, that's cool, but that is what Nanoha is all about.
See above.

Quote:
Doing that in the context of a competent military would be pretty tough. If they're full of people with Nanoha's abilities, then she's not special.
Not necessary. They don't have to be "full of people with Nanoha's capabilities". They need to employ basic tactics to maximize her potential.

Quote:
If they're using her and Fate's and Hayate's potential to the fullest, then they're either steamrolling any possible opposition (which isn't fun after the first couple of times) or they're going up against something so GINORMOUS that the fans go "bullshit".
Actually, they just need to make something comparable (say up 3 and 7 another notch, or just bring the "lagging" Numbers to the same standard as 3 and 7), or they don't have to keep adding Blaster 2 and Blaster 3 to force the win the stupid way. Blaster had a little plot value. Blaster 3 sounds like a rehash. If the show went on for 39 or 52 episodes (like some suggested) we'd be forced to see a Blaster 10. Anytime you see just repeated power-ups within a single arc, there's something wrong.

Quote:
Hell, even handled incompetently, Strikers had two fuggin' squads take out a super-magical relic battleship, and about a billion drones, while being 50% outnumbered by their opposition. And we're calling BS on that - part of the reason we're convinced that the TSAB is so incompetent is that they offered practically no help in Strikers. But sheeeee-it, what the hell would Nanoha and Fate and Hayate had to take on if they actually used their heads and got good backup and STILL had a rough time of it? Beggars the mind, really.
You are getting the wrong lesson. The whole thing was BS because plotwise they just plain don't deserve to win and we all know it, but 7Arcs forced the issue.

Quote:
I don't think that the writers were trying to make commentary about the SDF, though. I mean, come on. Why did Subaru join the military? Because she wanted to save people; even after getting combat experience, she went into a disaster rescue unit. That's pure JSDF thinking, man, not the kind of thing you'd do if you were making a point that putting combat veterans in your disaster relief units is actually pretty stupid. (Then again, Japan isn't exactly blessed with an overabundance of combat veterans.)

The easiest explanation is still the best here. The writers wrote about the military they're familiar with; it turns out that is not, by our terms, a terribly good military. They obviously weren't interested in making that point specifically. Therefore, it makes sense to chalk it up to ignorance - the TSAB isn't a parody of the Japanese military, it's just a reflection, and the flaws we see in it are mirrors of flaws in the real thing, not exaggerated caricatures. (Hell, if anything the JSDF is even worse.)
Ignorance does not cut it. If the TSAB reflects the actual SDF with zero amplification gain, they should know better than to use it as the model of a military. Even watching other anime or American war movies for inspiration would be better.

And again, while the SDF has problems, it'd be quite implausible that it sucks as much as the TSAB is made out to be. It does work with the American military, after all. I bet even the Syrians are better than the TSAB (the 1973 Syrians anyway, maybe the TSAB is better than the 1967 Syrians)!
arkhangelsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-10-05, 03:03   Link #255
BBM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Ignorance does not cut it. If the TSAB reflects the actual SDF with zero amplification gain, they should know better than to use it as the model of a military. Even watching other anime or American war movies for inspiration would be better.
Why does it need to be a good military force?

They remind me more of an UN security force with nukes.
BBM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-10-05, 03:40   Link #256
arkhangelsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
It is not really so bad that the organization itself sucks. There have been many shows of good guys fighting stupid bureaucracy. The problem is when the "good guys" join the bureaucracy.

True, one can argue this is a realistic and likely result, but as a show it generally is unacceptable, since we are supposed to sympathize with the protagonists.
arkhangelsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-10-05, 03:58   Link #257
Tk3997
Loveable Jerk
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Greensboro, North Carolina
Age: 28
Send a message via ICQ to Tk3997 Send a message via AIM to Tk3997 Send a message via MSN to Tk3997
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
They were ineffective no matter what you call them. An air force that can't provide air superiority, strikes, reconnaissance, better air-ground cooperation or air lift is hardly an air force. If Nanoha and the aerial mages are exemplary of the rest of the TSAB AF then it may as well be merged into the GF.
Yeah I’ve always felt that a well built tech based air force would CHRUSH the TSAB “Air Force” utterly. Speed if nothing else would pwn them, at best we see mages maybe being slightly faster then helicopters, Mach 2+ Jet fighters would rape them to hell and back. Mages could probably replace attack helicopters pretty well, but not much else. This gets back to the TSAB’s retarded aversion to any kind of no magic solution though.

What they really need is to get into a war with another power that actually uses tech AND magic together, if they survive a few crushing defeats they might finally be knocked out of their stupor and adapt as well as perhaps purge the morons that set them up for said defeats from the ranks. I'm acutally in the beginning stages of writing a fan fic something to that effect where in they come into conflict with a smaller, but more tactically and technically competent power and get a serious bloody nose and some lessons learned from it though still win more by sheer mass then any skill or tactics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Well, we do need a reason for why she might want to go on an exchange program to "some Earth army". Besides, "recent combat experience" would probably just mean US or Britain (even in ~2015). Sure, armies are probably fighting in Africa too but they won't be your choice.
Yup you've really gotta go with the US though after all by this time the US army has slapped down Russian, Liberated Cuba, Re-fought the Korean War, and saved the president while preventing a coup leader in Mexico from nuking the US.

Last edited by Tk3997; 2007-10-05 at 04:14.
Tk3997 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-10-05, 06:51   Link #258
arkhangelsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Yeah I’ve always felt that a well built tech based air force would CHRUSH the TSAB “Air Force” utterly. Speed if nothing else would pwn them, at best we see mages maybe being slightly faster then helicopters, Mach 2+ Jet fighters would rape them to hell and back. Mages could probably replace attack helicopters pretty well, but not much else. This gets back to the TSAB’s retarded aversion to any kind of no magic solution though.
That will depend on what fighters. The best fighter Midchildra should have been able to build (if it put its heart into it), definitely. Our fighters - they'd definitely clean the clock of the average mages, but they might not have the sheer firepower (short of using a nuke) to take down something like Nanoha (shields).

BTW, real jet fighters don't fly at Mach 2 very often, and less often when they are trying to attack man sized targets a lot slower than they are.

Quote:
What they really need is to get into a war with another power that actually uses tech AND magic together, if they survive a few crushing defeats they might finally be knocked out of their stupor and adapt as well as perhaps purge the morons that set them up for said defeats from the ranks. I'm acutally in the beginning stages of writing a fan fic something to that effect where in they come into conflict with a smaller, but more tactically and technically competent power and get a serious bloody nose and some lessons learned from it though still win more by sheer mass then any skill or tactics.
Don't make them too competent. In the end, you might want the heroines to finally do something clever to win, and that won't work if you make the best darn military you can think of. Keep an exploitable institutional hole open - most real militaries have some. Probably making something just a little better is probably the safest path.

I'd be waiting for it. Add lots of diagrams, too!
arkhangelsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-10-05, 08:49   Link #259
Jimmy C
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by tk3997 View Post
What they really need is to get into a war with another power that actually uses tech AND magic together, if they survive a few crushing defeats they might finally be knocked out of their stupor and adapt as well as perhaps purge the morons that set them up for said defeats from the ranks.
Most of those "morons" are dead by now, that policy was instituted before the TSAB even existed. The TSAB's current tactical practices is merely a legacy of those times. The last of the morons were the Brains who were thankfully "retired" by Due.
I have my own ideas for a force that could defeat the TSAB too. The key were two things, first was a method of artificially generating magic energy and using that energy to cast spells. That lets anyone be a mage, even without a linker core. The second was multiple factions on a world, all equally capable and equally distrusting of each other. This makes it impossible for any faction to phase out conventional weapons while phasing in magical ones. In the process, they will find the most potent combination of both. Something the TSAB failed to do.

Last edited by Jimmy C; 2007-10-05 at 12:13.
Jimmy C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-10-05, 09:11   Link #260
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Meh. If the TSAB is that incompetent (and I'm not disputing that) an army inferior in numbers should be able to crush them without any technological advantages. Just discipline and good tactics.
Anh_Minh is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:49.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.