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Old 2008-04-01, 22:25   Link #401
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It says to get them off the planet. That's when StrikerS comes in to fill in the rest of the gloomy picture. Like Erio and Caro, she'll be dumped into a very sterile and white care facility and evaluated by TSAB pokupatel (see Ep5).

She will join... whiteness or freedom (which might even extend to the opportunity for a family visit if she makes a name for herself). Tough choice.
Could it be that it was because both of them are, for all intents and purposes, freaks? Compared to normal mages, anyway. Erio's a clone, Caro can summon hugeass dragons...

Also note that all governments will be more arbitrary towards their own citizens than others. Take Malaysia: we've got detention without trial under the Internal Security Act, but this act is only used on Malaysians, not foreign citizens.

And on an aside, I'm not entirely keen on the novel being used as a source of canon/SoD/Fanon/what-have-you simply because it isn't as accessible as the rest of the animated medium - unless somebody translates it fully.

Also, aren't SF tie-in novels generally considered non-canon anyway? About the only tie-in novels I've seen that are considered part of a main canon are the Halo novels, which were written with close supervision by Bungie (and Contact Harvest was written by a Bungie senario writer).

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In our last discussion, you've made me concede this conscription point using this. However, the two are actually different issues.
How are the issues different?

Also, as a parting shot on the mages as captains issue and Lindy's micromanaging: when 24th MEU(SOC) rescued O'Grady, 24th MEU(SOC)'s CO went along and took personal command of the mission, a decision that was much-criticised afterward by his peers, as it violated the hands-off command style of the Corps. Lindy may be guilty of this.

And that's essentially my last point on a topic that is of limited relevance to my writing.
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Old 2008-04-01, 22:32   Link #402
Comartemis
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That's when StrikerS comes in to fill in the rest of the gloomy picture.
Gee, there's an interesting choice; turn a perfectly good series into a "gloomy picture" by acknowledging the canon-ness of novel I've never heard of, or accept the series as I know it, which is generally very hopeful and upbeat with lots of happy endings for everyone involved...



I think I'll pass on the Soviet TSAB interpretation, ark.

Nothing personal; I thumbed my nose at the people who tried to tell me Sailor Moon's Crystal Tokyo was a dictatorship-by-brainwashing, too.
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Old 2008-04-01, 22:45   Link #403
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
My point exactly. So you've found a powerfull mage on a non-administered planet. You invite them over to the TSAB. She refuses. What are you going to do? Drag her out of her house kicking and screaming? Some people simply don't want to join a millitairy, so they'll refuse to join an one they've never even heard of in the first place.
Except for all the sweetening the deal stuff that Avatar proposes, if things descend to this point, that's basically what you do.

If they resist, things go even better for you, from the TSAB Legal point of view. Now, they've "attacked" a TSAB officer. After you subdue her (obviously if you don't have the resources to do so, the presence or absence of the law is meaningless because you can't actually enforce it), now she's a criminal. Oh, the quid pro quos you can make...

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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
Gee, there's an interesting choice; turn a perfectly good series into a "gloomy picture" by acknowledging the canon-ness of novel I've never heard of, or accept the series as I know it, which is generally very hopeful and upbeat with lots of happy endings for everyone involved...
Forgive me. Let me re-express this. The main gloom here is StrikerS, which is filled with the less than great lives of Erio and Caro in the care facility (which is one of the reasons why they are so darn loyal to Fate). the novel only decides whether Nanoha might have joined their gloom

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Nothing personal; I thumbed my nose at the people who tried to tell me Sailor Moon's Crystal Tokyo was a dictatorship-by-brainwashing, too.
PM me the details.

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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Could it be that it was because both of them are, for all intents and purposes, freaks? Compared to normal mages, anyway. Erio's a clone, Caro can summon hugeass dragons...
Can't be more freaky and potentially damaging than two 9 year old AAAs...

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Also note that all governments will be more arbitrary towards their own citizens than others. Take Malaysia: we've got detention without trial under the Internal Security Act, but this act is only used on Malaysians, not foreign citizens.
That Guantameo (sp?) Bay in Cuba seems to be an example in the other direction. Then there are the Japanese - they actually have a black and white law that says that the police can only check the IDs of foreigners without cause, and their treatment of minority foreigners is uh a legend. A judgment actually had them rejecting testimony because the witness "is a member of the Black Community"...

The determining factor is probably more on avoiding uproars then "foreigner" or "local". Malaysia treats the foreigners better to avoid international condemnation, which is not in its interest. Japan and America are more worried about their own citizens protesting. They know no one is going to place serious sanctions on them, and their own citizens will be only mildly annoyed by any mistreatment of foreigners.

Extending to the TSAB, who barely recognizes the concept of "foreign", the only thing for them is their own heavily indoctrinated citizens. An "non-management" world? Who would even know if they did a few atrocities there? Who would care, any more than we really care (be honest here) about some genocide in random African country. Outta sight, outta mind.

What they want to see is the TSAB sending mages to save their sorry butts. Will they care if the rescuing mage is conscripted under threat of Arcenciel to his homeworld. I doubt it. How about you.

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Also, aren't SF tie-in novels generally considered non-canon anyway? About the only tie-in novels I've seen that are considered part of a main canon are the Halo novels, which were written with close supervision by Bungie (and Contact Harvest was written by a Bungie senario writer).
Not sure. Depends on the series. Star Trek novels are completely non-canon. Star Wars novels (especially the Tie-ins for the movies) have a place in the continuity (and elements drawn - apparently, once Coruscant was "Trantor" until Zahn named it Coruscant). Since the establishment has been silent on the fact, just start with all is equally important.

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How are the issues different?
One's impressment of a minority group. One's conscription of locals in the capital.

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Also, as a parting shot on the mages as captains issue and Lindy's micromanaging: when 24th MEU(SOC) rescued O'Grady, 24th MEU(SOC)'s CO went along and took personal command of the mission, a decision that was much-criticised afterward by his peers, as it violated the hands-off command style of the Corps. Lindy may be guilty of this.

And that's essentially my last point on a topic that is of limited relevance to my writing.
Yes. However, we only know that 24thMEU(SOC)'s CO is considered to have done something wrong based on:
1) His deviation from known norms.
2) Criticism from his peers.

For Lindy, we have no such references.

But then, we have Hayate, who can hardly manage her unit any more "loosely". They think she did well too. I guess the TSAB just has a wide range of acceptance here.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-04-02 at 00:01. Reason: Rev 3: Added WG reply.
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Old 2008-04-02, 00:19   Link #404
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Can't be more freaky and potentially damaging than two 9 year old AAAs...
You keep saying Lindy pulled strings to let Nanoha stay on Earth despite TSAB regulations. I'd like to know how you explain the Bureau letting Hayate and her Knights stay on Earth given their past records. You could get away with Nanoha since you can argue that she was cooperative and had no criminal record, but not the knights. Keroko raised the point previously, but I'm amused you never responded to it. Don't have a counter? That's rare from you.

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apparently, once Coruscant was "Trantor" until Zahn named it Coruscant
You must have it confused with Trantor from Asimov's Foundation series here. It was similar to Coruscant, namely a planetwide city, but it predates Star Wars by 35 years.
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Old 2008-04-02, 02:03   Link #405
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I don't think we necessarily need to ascribe a malicious nature to the TSAB, even if they do this sort of thing.

Untrained mages are dangerous. Not just because "he might come after us someday" - after all, that's not likely to happen - but because you can really hurt yourself or others, even if just by screwing up, when you're playing with magic you don't understand. Even if the mage wants to stay, is it moral to let them wipe out their family, their city, or their dimension with an innocent mistake? (To say nothing of the other kind...)

That said, you don't want to have to throw mages in an institution to raise them. Think about Elio - he was an angry lil' thing before Fate ran into him. Caro wasn't precisely happy either. You can assume that there are other people for whom the story doesn't end happily - kind of like real-life adoption, you know?

The key is to get the mages the supervision and training they need, not to haul them away from their world. With Lindy there in that role, the need is filled (and rather well!) So there's no point in trying to haul off Nanoha or Hayate. Lindy's involvement wasn't convincing the brass so much as it was actually DOING it - taking years of her life to ride herd on them. If Lindy hadn't been willing to go so far, it's likely that things would have turned out differently...

Things are different for Hayate, but not because they were focused on her - as far as the incident report goes, she was an innocent bystander who got involved. But the knights weren't absolved; even though they got off lightly, considering the circumstances, they really did have to do some restitution. Hayate comes out and says "this is probably the only way we'll be able to stay together" - so if that's her priority, she really does have no choice but to play ball.
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Old 2008-04-02, 02:24   Link #406
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
You keep saying Lindy pulled strings to let Nanoha stay on Earth despite TSAB regulations.
Actually, I didn't say that. The novel said this.

[quote]I'd like to know how you explain the Bureau letting Hayate and her Knights stay on Earth given their past records. You could get away with Nanoha since you can argue that she was cooperative and had no criminal record, but not the knights. Keroko raised the point previously, but I'm amused you never responded to it.

Actually, with the exception of the criminal record, all factors in both cases are very similar. It is not difficult to imagine similar methods being used.

Further, these people made a bigger commitment. They are not only helping - within months, they volunteered to be full-fledged officers. Obviously, that increases the room for concession. If anything, Lindy seems to suggest there are few limits to where an officer can live (I suppose the TSAB assumes its officers can handle their magic responsibly).

As a practical matter, since the Knights are so infamous, having them live on Earth and get mobilized onto Asura only when necessary is avoids embarassment for the TSAB, at least until the Knights develop a better reputation. There is no point in letting them walk around on Mid and raising news articles like "Scandal: High Ranking TSAB Official meets with Wolkenritter on Friendly Terms." Nothing like mutual interest to get people to agree to bend a rule...

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Don't have a counter? That's rare from you.
Do I ever set time limits for your answers, much less such short ones?

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You must have it confused with Trantor from Asimov's Foundation series here. It was similar to Coruscant, namely a planetwide city, but it predates Star Wars by 35 years.
Thanks for the correction - Coruscant was "Jhantor". My memory was blurry as to which one was the Asimov original and which one was the Lucas derivative. Thanks.
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Old 2008-04-02, 02:42   Link #407
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Originally Posted by Avatar notADV View Post
Things are different for Hayate, but not because they were focused on her - as far as the incident report goes, she was an innocent bystander who got involved.
One of the things I have to agree with Ark is that Hayate accepted some share of the blame for the Knights actions. She may even have hinted that she passively agreed to let them collect Linker Cores to heal her. She would do something like that if she realized that, if the Bureau knew the Knights violated her direct orders, they would consider the Knights to be an uncontrolable threat and incacerate or eliminate them. She would consider this black mark on her record to be a small price to pay for keeping her family together.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, with the exception of the criminal record, all factors in both cases are very similar. It is not difficult to imagine similar methods being used.
Tell me something, would you treat the follow persons in the same manner for a sensitive position? A has no criminal record. B was convicted for petty theft. C was convicted on terrorism charges.

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As a practical matter, since the Knights are so infamous, having them live on Earth and get mobilized onto Asura only when necessary is avoids embarassment for the TSAB, at least until the Knights develop a better reputation. There is no point in letting them walk around on Mid
Who said they'd be allowed to live free on Mid if they had to grabbed from Earth?
Forgot that Secure White Room you say the Bureau could threaten to lock Nanoha in if Lindy hadn't pulled strings for her? Why let the Knights stay on Earth if they're worried about them going out of control, when they can lock them in a secure facility on one of their own worlds? It doesn't have to be Mid either.
Therefore, regulations regarding NAW mages are either non-existent or bent to the point where they might as well be non-existent so far as examples in the anime and manga have shown.
Erio and Caro are not from NAWs, so such regulations do not apply to them.

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Do I ever set time limits for your answers, much less such short ones?
You made several replies since Keroko posted that. Since you did not mention the matter in those replies, I assumed you had no response to it.
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Old 2008-04-02, 04:16   Link #408
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
I don't think we necessarily need to ascribe a malicious nature to the TSAB, even if they do this sort of thing.

Untrained mages are dangerous. Not just because "he might come after us someday" - after all, that's not likely to happen - but because you can really hurt yourself or others, even if just by screwing up, when you're playing with magic you don't understand. Even if the mage wants to stay, is it moral to let them wipe out their family, their city, or their dimension with an innocent mistake? (To say nothing of the other kind...)
I'm not sure about Caro, but Nanoha without a device is just a normal girl, isn't she?
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Old 2008-04-02, 04:23   Link #409
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I'm not sure about Caro, but Nanoha without a device is just a normal girl, isn't she?
Not anymore. I'm sure that even without RH she could still perform magic, just not to the degree she can with RH :3
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Old 2008-04-02, 06:56   Link #410
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Tell me something, would you treat the follow persons in the same manner for a sensitive position? A has no criminal record. B was convicted for petty theft. C was convicted on terrorism charges.
If I assume A = Nanoha, B = Fate and C = Wolkenritter, then the TSAB has spoken. They are making them officers no matter what we think...

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Who said they'd be allowed to live free on Mid if they had to grabbed from Earth?
Forgot that Secure White Room you say the Bureau could threaten to lock Nanoha in if Lindy hadn't pulled strings for her? Why let the Knights stay on Earth if they're worried about them going out of control, when they can lock them in a secure facility on one of their own worlds? It doesn't have to be Mid either.
Yes, and they could execute them too, probably. However, they already chose not to do this. Instead, they opt to offer a deal, which was accepted. So, locking them up is out.

The point I made was not them going out of control, but rather the media (you know them) putting the wrong things in print from accidental contact. Until the Wolkies get a more positive reputation, there's no point in blatantly advertising the fact that TSAB works with former criminals. It does no one any good.

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You made several replies since Keroko posted that. Since you did not mention the matter in those replies, I assumed you had no response to it.
No, it just means that when I'm pressed by five guys here, and 3-4 more women in my office, someone had to wait a little.
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Old 2008-04-02, 07:15   Link #411
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Originally Posted by ghazghkull View Post
Not anymore. I'm sure that even without RH she could still perform magic, just not to the degree she can with RH :3
She pretty much fired off a Crossfire Shoot one-fingered that took out Tea without using RH, so yeah, I'd say she can still do magic. RH and her are just a helluva more effective than Nanoha on her own.
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Old 2008-04-02, 07:40   Link #412
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
She pretty much fired off a Crossfire Shoot one-fingered that took out Tea without using RH, so yeah, I'd say she can still do magic. RH and her are just a helluva more effective than Nanoha on her own.
She was still carying RH at that time, though.

Although as Yuuno demostrates, one can be a damn good mage without a device. However, one must wonder if Nanoha would have unlocked her magic potential at all if not for Yuuno. I'd have to say no.
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Old 2008-04-02, 08:14   Link #413
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You forget one important detail: The source of her crime. The Yami no Sho is a Lost Logia that had caused problems for the TSAB multiple times, and even in StrikerS there are still people who use it as a bias against her, Regius was but one example. S-class or not, Hayate was labelled as a criminal. And yet they broke their own laws to allow a criminal to live a happy life? If even during StrikerS there is still bad blood aimed at Hayate, then during her earlier years it should have been nigh-impossible to allow her to break this supposed law and stay on an unadministered planet.

It makes much more sense if such a law simply was a novel only thing, concidering there is no support for it whatsoever beyond the novel.
Actually, Regius and maybe his very close clique are the only ones we see, perhaps the only ones Period. Even with his political power, Auris warns him that such remarks are unsafe in public. The correlation of forces is clear.

Just think about self-interest. When it comes to innocent mages like Nanoha, simple self-interest involves grabbing her back, and pressuring her into service - Unhappy Conscript > None (and the Unhappy Conscript might just be turned Happy through indoctrination and good service conditions - maybe they can even let him relocate back home after he has proven himself to make him Happy). The chances of her turning genocidal and being a threat are minimal.

Lindy uses a mixture of techniques to convince the highers that Nanoha's a Volunteer, so we might as well have her be a Happy Volunteer. Self interest says - let her stay on Earth - it is actually closer to HQ than Mid anyway, for some reason that will forever elude us. Not a year later, such a strategy pays off as Nanoha sells herself into officer servitude

Then look at Hayate and co. Everyone can win and everyone can lose. Self interest says to take the winning path - which is to make them into volunteers. Everyone loses by throwing them into prison or by letting things blow into a full blown court case. After all, the BoD incident is rather embarassing. Top dog backstabs subordinates, deliberately allows BoD Growth. Within minutes of using Arcie ... kids come up with tactics professionals can't ... all of these are things that will come out in a court case, none of which is good for the TSAB's prestige (and prestige is half the thing in law enforcement - if the criminals think you're a joke, you've got no deterrence). Sure, there are such things as secret courts held in the dark, do you prefer them?

Now, so. No prison. Voluntary "community" service instead. Now, where do they live? They are at least nominally officers now, so it won't be appropriate to hide them in that Sterile White Care Center, much less a prison. They'll live out more or less out in the open. Sure, they can set some probationary curfews and the like, but these guys are going on the street. This risks media attention, which may not be sympathetic. And if you go down the path that they are possible Dangers, then if they do blow, it'll be in the middle of Midchildra with no way to cover up the mess. The TSAB looks like an idiot for misplaced trust ... so on.

Best to, especially since that's clearly what they want to do, let them live in that backwater world that no one visits, under the close direct surveillance of two crack mages (Lindy and Chrono) that for some reason had taken a liking to the place, plus an up and coming third who is very much interested in making sure the Wolkies stay peaceful (since they are living right in her hometown...)

Just evaluate self-interests, and the solution is clear.

Regarding RH... Nanoha was practicing her Divine Shooters w/o RH assistance in Ep 1 A's. All RH was doing was counting to 100 for her.
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Old 2008-04-02, 08:58   Link #414
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Originally Posted by Arkhangelsk View Post
then the TSAB has spoken. They are making them officers no matter what we think...
Beyond that, the Bureau is placing no restrictions on their movements. Like we keep saying, this pretty much means the Bureau has no policy on impressing foreign mages or doesn't bother to enforce them. Totally contradicting this point of the novel.

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Instead, they opt to offer a deal, which was accepted. So, locking them up is out.
Again, if the Bureau had any policy on impressing foreign mages, there wouldn't have been any reason to offer any deals. Not after the severity of their actions. If anyone can be considered an example of "mages that should not be allowed free reign on NAWs" it's the Knights. Yet, instead of forcing them to work on the Bureau's terms for the duration of their probation, they bent over backwards to let Hayate and co. live and work for them on her terms. After what they did, you realise the Knights aren't exactly in any position to make demands, right?
Nanoha could have been an exception, but Hayate pretty much suggests that the TSAB doesn't impress foreign mages.
Really, you're the only one who insists that the TSAB requires that all foreign mages they find to work for them.

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The point I made was not them going out of control, but rather the media (you know them) putting the wrong things in print from accidental contact.
That's totally not an issue. Even 10 years after they joined the Bureau, the true nature of Hayate and her Knights is still a successfully kept secret. Refer to StrikerS ep7 where Subaru tells Teana that.
What would be an issue, in the event they recruited Hayate against her will and hauled her party to Mid, would be what mischief they can cause when not on duty. In such a case, they would likely have been locked up in a secure facility when not on duty.
You like impressment so much. Tell me, when a party used it, how much freedom did they give the impressed "recruits" before they were done with them?

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Originally Posted by Arkhangelsk View Post
Lindy uses a mixture of techniques to convince the highers that Nanoha's a Volunteer, so we might as well have her be a Happy Volunteer. Not a year later, such a strategy pays off as Nanoha sells herself into officer servitude.
I don't think I recall ever seeing your response to the fact that, when they first found her, Lindy wanted Nanoha, and Yuuno, off the Jewel Seed case. They would be taking over, thank you very much. She gave them the chance to walk away from all this, how does that jive with the impressment policy, if there ever was one?

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They are at least nominally officers now, so it won't be appropriate to hide them in that Sterile White Care Center, much less a prison. They'll live out more or less out in the open.
Not. It doesn't need to have "prison" or "detention center" in the name, or even look like a prison, to be a prison. Some place like "the 29th High Security GF Base" would do nicely. There's no need for it to be on Mid either, a simple unpopulated Administered planet will do.

The Bureau may have an unwritten policy to make every attempt to recruit promising mages they can find, given their mage shortages, who can blame them? But that's far from the impressment that is mentioned in the novel.
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Old 2008-04-02, 09:42   Link #415
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There's not really any reason for Hayate to obfuscate what went on, as far as the investigation was concerned. I mean, the truth is pretty compelling, isn't it? Little crippled girl, who is also an orphan, is dying; she encounters the Book through pure blind chance (and this is corroborated by an admiral!) Knights come to the conclusion that the Book is killing her; this is bad; the only tool they have is a hammer, so they go pound some nails. They run into Nanoha, A's ensues, happy ending.

I can see Hayate accepting responsibility - after all, they're "hers", so the damage they did is partly her fault even if it was while they were off the proverbial leash. So having her do so is actually a good move as far as public relations. She's young, cooperative, hard to get mad at, and also a sickly little girl! If she's insisting "no, no, you can't just punish them because it's my fault too" when you and every other observer know it's none of her bloody fault, the end result is going easy on the knights.

The back side of it is, of course, that it's not just the TSAB with a gun to Hayate's head, saying "you will cooperate or we'll dismember your family"... Hayate has a Mexican standoff here. The TSAB wants the Book incident buried, really buried. Most especially, they want Graham's involvement to be completely off the record. But that doesn't work if they just drop the hammer on Hayate and the kids, because it's not just them involved. Even if you could lock up Hayate and the knights somewhere, you still have to deal with a (now-enraged) Lindy, who's high up enough in the command structure to kick people in all sorts of sensitive places.

So the TSAB -has- to come to a compromise here. And really, it wasn't hard; the knights escape punishment except for some nice community work (probably good for the soul, especially if you've spent your entire existence as a soulless killing machine,) and Hayate gets to play with all the magic that Reinforce left her, with her good friends who also turned out to be mages. The Bureau gets its dirty secret buried, and buried effectively enough that Hayate's still catching crap over it ten years later; that's her end of the bargain.

As for Nanoha not being a threat without a device... er... you know, it did turn out that the Book of Darkness was -across town- from her. Not sayin' anything bad, but assuming that she'd never run into anything powerfully magical... well, there's a really good counter-example actually provided in the show, after a fashion.
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Old 2008-04-02, 10:50   Link #416
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I mean, the truth is pretty compelling, isn't it?
In one case, it isn't compelling enough. If she let's slip the Knights disobeyed her direct orders, TSAB higher-ups might wonder what if she lost control of them again and they turned on the Bureau this time? Would they feel the danger of that is so great that they need to eliminate the Knights, regardless of the outcome of her case?
If Hayate thought about this, she'd figure out a way to make people think she asked the Knights do what was neccessary to save her. That implies that the Knights didn't disobey her orders, so the Bureau only needs to watch her loyalty.
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Old 2008-04-02, 11:14   Link #417
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Beyond that, the Bureau is placing no restrictions on their movements. Like we keep saying, this pretty much means the Bureau has no policy on impressing foreign mages or doesn't bother to enforce them. Totally contradicting this point of the novel.
Umm, are you reading the sentence I wrote? When I wrote that, I meant to say that they do seem, at least in the cases seen, to be relatively uncaring of previous offenses as long as you are willing to make amends. Oh sure, there's Regius, but he seems to be in a real minority.

This is actually consistent with the newer Rehabiliative or Restorative justice models. If a former baddie is sincerely willing to do good and make amends, to some extent compromises are possible because the goal is to get him to accept his amends as amends, not an enforced punishment. But then, it might just have been good old self interest.

Presumably, Regius is the old Retributive and Deontological type. Break the Law = Bad. No mitigating circumstances. And all that.

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Not after the severity of their actions. If anyone can be considered an example of "mages that should not be allowed free reign on NAWs" it's the Knights. Yet, instead of forcing them to work on the Bureau's terms for the duration of their probation, they bent over backwards to let Hayate and co. live and work for them on her terms. After what they did, you realise the Knights aren't exactly in any position to make demands, right? Nanoha could have been an exception, but Hayate pretty much suggests that the TSAB doesn't impress foreign mages.
Really, you're the only one who insists that the TSAB requires that all foreign mages they find to work for them.
Actually, that's what the novel says. You (pluralistic) are ridiculously interested in trying to contradict it instead of integrating it. What's so hard about believing that the TSAB prefers volunteers too?

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What would be an issue, in the event they recruited Hayate against her will and hauled her party to Mid, would be what mischief they can cause when not on duty. In such a case, they would likely have been locked up in a secure facility when not on duty.
Now, wouldn't it just be smarter to (since they've already agreed to be officers, you've already won) just leave them on Earth under a senior officer's surveillance and control? From a viewpoint of self-interest, this is the best arrangement. Happier, more grateful reformees and you don't worry about them blowing up your facility.

If you view everything through the lens of self-interest, it is entirely consistent that they will impress good mages if recruitment doesn't work, but that once the mage has agreed to help they can be maganimous in proportion to the Power and Rarity of the mage, even if the background is not totally clean.

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I don't think I recall ever seeing your response to the fact that, when they first found her, Lindy wanted Nanoha, and Yuuno, off the Jewel Seed case. They would be taking over, thank you very much. She gave them the chance to walk away from all this, how does that jive with the impressment policy, if there ever was one?
Well, you didn't recall a response, that's because it is a new one to my knowledge. I'll give it a quick shot right now. Now, given that it is obvious that Lindy is not awfully predisposed towards this policy:
1) Lindy is trying to "shut eye". As in, if you guys walk away, I can pretend that the White mage is a one time event and we cannot locate her. If we can't locate her obviously we can't recruit / impress / conscript her. We can't do that if you keep showing up.
2) It has nothing to do with it. Lindy just figures that they are untrained for what is to come and doesn't want them to interfere. Asura will be staying there for awhile, so Lindy can just pick Nanoha up when she's done. In fact, maybe Lindy is worried Nanoha would get killed duelling Fate and then she won't be able to get her into the TSAB...

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Not. It doesn't need to have "prison" or "detention center" in the name, or even look like a prison, to be a prison. Some place like "the 29th High Security GF Base" would do nicely. There's no need for it to be on Mid either, a simple unpopulated Administered planet will do.
Like that fools anyone after awhile. And are you saying that instead of impressment, now they have camouflaged prisons?

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The Bureau may have an unwritten policy to make every attempt to recruit promising mages they can find, given their mage shortages, who can blame them? But that's far from the impressment that is mentioned in the novel.
Actually, it is far from your polarized interpretation in the hopes of forcing a contradiction where one does not exist.
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Old 2008-04-02, 11:39   Link #418
Wild Goose
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I just want to say that while this is all fun and well to you guys, it has no bearings on Outer Cadia, where the novel is rarely referred to and the TSAB apparently runs a National Service system ala Singapore/Israel.
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Old 2008-04-02, 12:09   Link #419
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, it is far from your polarized interpretation in the hopes of forcing a contradiction where one does not exist.
No contradiction?

It is very clear that while the TSAB has a darker side, the public face of the TSAB is al smiles and pleasure. Lindy (and thereby the entire crew of the Arthra) were allowing Nanoha to simply walk away, and the TSAB as a whole went easy on Fate in S1. The second season had the beginnings of the darkness in the TSAB with Graham, but the public face once again covered things up. Graham 'retired' and very few know of the truth behind the Yami no Sho case. In StrikerS, it is quite clear that the TSAB is doing dark things, but it is also quite aparant that these dark things are a closely guarded secret, to the point where the TSAB head honchos have little qualms on eliminating their own to keep the public face intact.

The novel law, which basically says that people with magic abillities will be drafted against choice if neccisary, directly contradicts what canon has shown us. Not just S1, but A's and StrikerS as well.

Combine that with the fact that this law has no support in any of the canon materials we have available, and it becomes quite clear that it is a novel-only thing.
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Last edited by Keroko; 2008-04-02 at 16:50.
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Old 2008-04-02, 12:38   Link #420
Jimmy C
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
You (pluralistic) are ridiculously interested in trying to contradict it instead of integrating it.
Calling my writting ridiculous? Did the Ark lose his cool? I admit, you got me upset a few times, even upset a few other people. But this is the first time I've seen you lose it yourself. Other than myself, who else does this you (pluralistic) refer to?

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What's so hard about believing that the TSAB prefers volunteers too?
That's not an issue, anyone would prefer volunteers. But you yourself stated the novel says "ordinarily, a mage like Nanoha would not be permitted to stay on Earth" correct? Given that the novel implies that it wasn't easy to let Nanoha stay on Earth, what chance do Fate and Hayate really have, even with Lindy as their advocate?

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Well, you didn't recall a response, that's because it is a new one to my knowledge.
It's not new, you just overlooked it. It's within a few posts of Keroko's post about Hayate.

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I'll give it a quick shot right now. Now, given that it is obvious that Lindy is not awfully predisposed towards this policy:
Given her utter lack of attention to this policy, I doubt its existence in the first place. Others who never even heard of the novel probably find it hard to believe it exists at all.

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Lindy is trying to "shut eye". As in, if you guys walk away, I can pretend that the White mage is a one time event and we cannot locate her. If we can't locate her obviously we can't recruit / impress / conscript her. We can't do that if you keep showing up.
You'd have to explain why wouldn't she want to recruit a promising mage like Nanoha in this case given the Bureau's HR situation, then.

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It has nothing to do with it. Lindy just figures that they are untrained for what is to come and doesn't want them to interfere. Asura will be staying there for awhile, so Lindy can just pick Nanoha up when she's done. In fact, maybe Lindy is worried Nanoha would get killed duelling Fate and then she won't be able to get her into the TSAB...
And sending her away will prevent that, riiiight... Also, you do realise that, if Lindy had failed to stop Precia, Nanoha could have been killed along with the rest of Uminari's population in the resulting dimensional distortion event?

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Like that fools anyone after awhile. And are you saying that instead of impressment, now they have camouflaged prisons?
It's not a prison, it's a military base where the personnel assigned to it have their liberties curtailed. So what? All Armed Forces restrict their personnels' liberties to some degree. As I said before, any party that practices impressments is going to give the impressed as little chance to leave their service as possible before they're done with them.
Furthermore, if the base was on some unpopulated planet instead of Mid, the media is unlikely to find out what goes on there. Transdimensional travel and communications are easier to block than the same on Earth.
This is what Hayate and co. can look forward to if such a law really existed.

"We're glad you decided to join us on your own initiative. You are assigned to this base. You will go there immediately. You will obey all regulations. Disobedience will be considered treason. Treason is punishable by death."
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