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Old 2009-03-16, 04:30   Link #621
MeisterBabylon
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You mean Erio was train 1-on-1 by Signum rather than Subaru...?

Though one thing we seem to be forgetting about clone heritage is that Belka traditionally had cloning, DNA modding and other now-illegal methods of reproduction, unlike our world. The Kaiser herself can be interpreted to have been a strain of super-clones from an Iron Womb to ensure genetic purity and maximum Rare Skill inheritance (I know this sounds like the Clans). Since that is recognized as the "Royal Line", Erio could well be a Knight because of being a clone of a boy of blue blood.

That said, I haven't exactly seen any flashbacks of his original family in any sort of regality to even hint they were oldtype knights.
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Old 2009-03-16, 04:40   Link #622
Keroko
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You mean Erio was train 1-on-1 by Signum rather than Subaru...?
Ah, thanks for catching that.

And yes, I did forget that for a moment. Of course, that doesn't change much, considering noble lineage is not required for knighthood. Common, yes. Required, no.
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Old 2009-03-16, 14:11   Link #623
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We're off into speculation land now. We don't actually see any knights getting trained but Elio, who can claim direct instruction from Signum, who's in an unusual position vis-a-vis Church approval. It's all tied up with the whole "let's-make-good-friends-with-Hayate" issue. If Signum trained up a knight and the Church refused to recognize him as such, what's going to be Hayate's reaction? She trusts Signum implicitly; "it was a bad idea to train that person" simply is not an idea she'd be prepared to entertain. So, she would ask herself, why would the Church want to deny that Signum was a knight? Because, by extension, that would deny Hayate's role too. Why would the Church want to do that, given that Hayate is without bad intentions (aside from a little freelance sexual harrassment)? Because someone in the Church had bad intentions and wants to do something Hayate wouldn't stand for. So Hayate would more or less have to act, because the only alternative (aside from bloody civil war) would be Hayate taking control of the Church to keep it from doing whatever it had in mind.

Like I said, Hayate doesn't have to think this way, and neither does Carim, because they march in lockstep. But part of the reason they do is because they need to - either one doing something without consulting the other could be taken as the first step towards pushing the other out of the picture entirely.

Vivio's more of a wildcard. Ideally she grows up good friends with everybody, never has to bother with the Saint King business again, and all that jazz. But even if that's true, Hayate and Carim can't take the Church in a direction that Vivio would oppose, because then Vivio could decide to assert herself as a response (well, for Carim; I don't think Vivio would win out over Hayate, not for a long time yet.)

And, of course, because Nanoha is Vivio's mom now, by extension Nanoha's got a little say in how the Church is being run too; fortunately Nanoha is thick as thieves with Hayate already. (Neatly disposing of the issue of Vivio's caretaker as a separate problem - there aren't a whole lot of things on which Nanoha and Hayate would take different sides anyway, given their long friendship and identical cultural background.)

Hayate and Carim boost each other credentials. Hayate viva Rein knows more Belken magic then the entire Saint church added together. Her and the knights add a certain legitamacy to the Church as the final arbitar of anything belken. Carim gets Hayate a boost viva politics as Hayate joins the TSAB under a cloud due the incident with the BoD. With one of the Board of directors in her corner it gives her more legitamacy and political power then just another reform Mage serving in the TSAB for past transgressions.

Vivio really is a potiential headache for Carim. Currently as a little girl under Nanoha's care she is no problem but when she becomes a teenager with all the usual teenager problems.....
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Old 2009-03-16, 14:17   Link #624
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Vivio really is a potiential headache for Carim. Currently as a little girl under Nanoha's care she is no problem but when she becomes a teenager with all the usual teenager problems.....
And people call her "Her majesty the Sankt Kaiser" already...
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Old 2009-03-16, 14:22   Link #625
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It certainly isn't being kept a secret, that's for sure.
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Old 2009-03-16, 14:25   Link #626
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Chances are Vivio'd grow up to have totally prim-and-Suey teenage years that would be so boring that it would be skipped over just like Nanoha's. So Carym won't be worried about that for a while.
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Old 2009-03-17, 03:09   Link #627
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One points out that they wouldn't be making a manga series based off of it if Vivio wasn't going to have some exciting times. (Well, assuming it's not a gag manga...)

Should be a lot less of a problem than you'd think, though. Even going all out, Vivio ain't a match for her mom, and both of them know it; they'll go on knowing that for a while, even if Vivio becomes even stronger than Nanoha (and ain't that a scary thought). If anything, it's more likely that Vivio will want to follow in Nanoha-mama's footsteps, which is sure to provoke a mixed reaction in Nanoha.
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Old 2009-03-17, 06:40   Link #628
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It should be noted that if Vivio becomes as strong as Nanoha was during StrikerS, then she already has become stronger then Nanoha, due to Nanoha's damage after the Cradle incident.

Anyhoo, I wonder how much of a plot Vivio's heritage will become? I don't really see Nanoha as the franchise that throws in BetrayerS level plot...
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Old 2009-03-17, 13:31   Link #629
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I get this image of Nanoha yelling at Vivio for trying to go out and fight the bad guys... "You know that saving the world is a family activity!" Squabbling ensues over who gets stuck on minion duty.

My earlier point was that, even if Vivio becomes technically stronger, it's going to be some time before she internalizes that. How many people here could kick their dad's butt? Most boys reach that point in their teenage years, but the vast majority (thankfully) don't ever internalize that. Kick Dad's butt? Are you kidding? Dad is the -man-, he'd just refuse to get kicked.

Nanoha is the same way, with extra reinforcement, because it's not just Vivio who thinks that Nanoha is tough. Heck, Vivio's already won the "my dad can beat up your dad" fights at school, with her mom; even in rebellious teenage mode, even if she's fully realized her power, she's not going to want to confront Nanoha head-on for a long, long time.
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Old 2009-03-17, 14:06   Link #630
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Nanoha'd probably still win even with Vivio being stronger out of the fact that she has more experience. The Cradle showed us that Nanoha's combat thinking was ahead of the actual fight by about an hour. She was hunting for quattro before she ever made contact with enemies inside the cradle.

Experience is a real killer in these kind of battles.

Nanoha may feign weakness for half the fight just to draw Vivio in and waste her power, then trump her after Vivio's worn herself down. She doesn't have an 'invicible' power supply backing her this time. Or she could fake wearing down, pretend to have a second wind, wind down again, and then toss in a false third wind to pretend it's the end of her bluff. THEN throw it into fourth gear and pull a win.

Nanoha's taken powerhouses down before.
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Old 2009-03-17, 15:40   Link #631
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Right, but it goes beyond that. Even if Vivio got really mad at Nanoha, is she going to sit down and think "well, these days I clock in at a low SS and Nanoha has to push to get to S+, I can probably take her?" Or is she going to remember being on the receiving end of an all-range attack? It will take a lot of actual combat experience before Vivio comes to a point where she can judge Nanoha outside the old paradigm, where Nanoha essentially curb-stomped Vivio in a caring fashion.

Of course the experience factor is also there, and even once Vivio catches up (assuming she ever does), Nanoha will still be wily and mean in a fight, and still probably have the advantage. But way before any actual confrontation, even if a pot-smoking Cinque was sitting there going "oh, it's just your old lady, you could totally take her!", Vivio wouldn't believe it. Especially if Dieci was there shaking her head...

(For that matter, practically everyone in Vivio's circle of friends are "people who Nanoha has beat" or "people who were beat by other people who Nanoha beat"...)
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Old 2009-03-17, 16:01   Link #632
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That's part of the psychological factor of facing down Nanoha, but not the point I was making. Even if Vivio was out to trounce Nanoha as a personal goal of challenge, she'd probably still lose by operating on a power only basis because of Nanoha's combat proficiency.

One of the biggest elements that has always driven me nuts in fiction is the almost tunnel like focus on "POWER!" AKA STRENGTH when in a fight between highly skilled individuals, strength is merely a component of a more complete battle doctrine. One of the reasons special forces are so awesome is the fact that they don't have nearly the POWER they seem to have, yet project it because of their skill and method of fighting. These guys aren't carrying thousands of pounds of high explosive, but they take out stuff that an entire nation's air force couldn't get close to.

If Vivio climbs into the double S power range, she may actually handicap her combat developement by relying on brute power even more than Nanoha does in a pinch. It's not until you face a superior opponent that you learn how to play the game to your full potential.
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Old 2009-03-17, 16:18   Link #633
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It's not until you face a superior opponent that you learn how to play the game to your full potential.
Nanoha herself is actually a prime example of this. She was always rushing into battle going 'zenryouku zenkai' on her enemies. It wasn't until doing so nearly got her killed that she sat down and thought "hmm, maybe I shouldn't push my body past its limits unless really really necessary."
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Old 2009-03-17, 21:12   Link #634
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Right, but it goes beyond that. Even if Vivio got really mad at Nanoha, is she going to sit down and think "well, these days I clock in at a low SS and Nanoha has to push to get to S+, I can probably take her?" Or is she going to remember being on the receiving end of an all-range attack? It will take a lot of actual combat experience before Vivio comes to a point where she can judge Nanoha outside the old paradigm, where Nanoha essentially curb-stomped Vivio in a caring fashion.
Though the significant point here is that Vivio actually asked Nanoha to...ahem..."curb-stomp" her. Until Vivio's brain was kicked loose from the ol' Total Mind Control when Quattro was zapped she was basically redecorating the walls with her mom (though how much of that was due to Nanoha not wanting to open up fully on her daughter is open to all kinds of debate). I'd vote that if for whatever reason they threw down with each other again the mother-daughter psychological dynamic would be much more significant than any memories of past fights.

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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
One of the biggest elements that has always driven me nuts in fiction is the almost tunnel like focus on "POWER!" AKA STRENGTH when in a fight between highly skilled individuals, strength is merely a component of a more complete battle doctrine. One of the reasons special forces are so awesome is the fact that they don't have nearly the POWER they seem to have, yet project it because of their skill and method of fighting. These guys aren't carrying thousands of pounds of high explosive, but they take out stuff that an entire nation's air force couldn't get close to.
That's one reason why one of my favorite moments in the StrikerS manga is when Hayate, who's basically a fragging strategic nuke with pretty black wings, up and confesses that any of the forwards could take her in a one-on-one fight because of their superior practical combat training. Raw power means nothing if you can't direct it against your target.

Quote:
If Vivio climbs into the double S power range, she may actually handicap her combat developement by relying on brute power even more than Nanoha does in a pinch. It's not until you face a superior opponent that you learn how to play the game to your full potential.
But if Vivio's going to be an air combat mage, then she's basically going to have been living and breathing combat training since the age of five, under a regimen where "just hit it harder" isn't an acceptable answer to any training scenario. Tia: My head still hurts... So I don't see that as being a particular risk. True, training does not equal practical combat experience, but unless her actual applications of her power are very limited in scope she's not likely to fall into that particular trap.
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Old 2009-03-18, 13:25   Link #635
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One points out that they wouldn't be making a manga series based off of it if Vivio wasn't going to have some exciting times. (Well, assuming it's not a gag manga...)
it depends on when the manga is happening. if the teenage years the yes it will be exciting and action pack. but as she is now around 8 to 10 i think it will be more along a slice of life type.
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Old 2009-03-18, 13:41   Link #636
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Slice of life? In Nanoha? Surely you jest!

Sarcasm aside, Vivid takes place with a 10 year old Vivio. While I'm sure we'll be getting a few slice of life chapters, the real meat of Nanoha is magic battles, so I'm sure we'll be fed plenty of those too.
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Old 2009-03-18, 15:14   Link #637
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True. Age is no inclination of action. After all, Nanoha was only 9 when it all started.
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:23   Link #638
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Slice of life in the Nanohaverse: get up, go to school, cause large explosions.
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Old 2009-03-19, 04:36   Link #639
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Shouldn't we add: making new friend ?
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Old 2009-03-19, 04:52   Link #640
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That's a side effect of the above activities
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