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Old 2010-08-13, 15:20   Link #961
Kaijo
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Ark, you didn't answer your contradiction: Can an HE RPG round take out a cyborg or no? You claim it can't with Subaru, and claim it can with Nove and the others. Answer this contradiction.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Considering that you aren't contesting as far as we can tell, they look EXACTLY the same, this will actualy be roughly the analogue of saying Precia's device is incapable of passing a magical charge despite looking exactly like a magical device.
I'm simply using your reasoning. "This device doesn't look like it's doing what it can normally do, therefore it isn't." Yes or no?

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Or I'm right, and the Type-1s are simply part of an operational hi-lo model. In fact, that's much more likely considering they look exactly the same.
Even if we take your economic argument, it's also economical to make things similar, using similar parts, even if they have different purposes. Jail has a lot of red tubing around, so it's economical to sheathe extra appendages in them, even if they can't interface. And by the way, the type-1 drone appendages have a sort of plug on the end, while the type three red appendages have a sort of claw. Seems like different purposes to me.

But you only have to show a type-3 interfacing to prove your point. I'll wager you can't.

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If by auto-barrier, you mean the role of active defenses, I pretty much said they had to be the ones that saved Fate, since it is rather physically implausible for the BJ to do so.
Ah, but we're using your argument of "It's not shown, so can't be true!" So since active defenses weren't shown, they can't be true. Either way you argue, you lose a point, so consider carefully. And by the way, the argument was "BJ+auto-barrier" not solely BJ, since it's hard to separate them out. You know, because an auto-barrier is magical, and yet isn't shown glowing like... ever. Hmm, magic without a symbol or glow... how odd...

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No limit fallacy here.
No reading comprehension here. If you had kept going, you would have noticed I also suggested that the variance of magnitudes that they could withstand were rather great. You know, since you love tossing out all manner of theories regardless of belief, I figured you'd be more supportive.

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That's not a control, since the BJ was still on. So, even though the BJ was on (if perhaps damaged), it is at its very limits from a relatively low velocity impact against a metal cabinet.
Or the outer layer was more protective.

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Or you just overestimated the power of the blast. Have you considered that?
How can I overestimate it? The only information we're given from the audio-only soundstage was that it was a HIGH EXPLOSIVE blast that could take out a tank. How exactly am I supposed to take that? "Oh, it says high explosive, but it really means it was a small explosion." That really what you want to argue? When I visualize a big enough explosion to take out a medium tank, and then compare that to what it would do to a humanoid figure, well, I imagine the humanoid figure becoming fully engulfed.

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Or the image is inaccurate, and Subaru WAS stark naked (see my comments to prescience). Just to forestall the comments, at equal canonicity (say within the anime) visual always beats dialogue.
Now who wants to ignore canon to be able to keep their point intact? So perhaps we should ignore things like DVD booklets, too? Hmm?

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Indeed, if Subaru was nearly naked after the blast, for reasons of "ethics" it'll be difficult to draw her literally, thus forcing them to either forego the picture entirely or go for figurativeness.
Or Subaru could reform her barrier jacket. A few extra lines indicating that, wouldn't be a big deal. Or they could draw her picture such to cover the bits; say, up to her waist in water, while holding Ix in her arms to cover her chest. Various ways to do it. They didn't, so the the conclusion left to draw was that her clothes remained mostly intact... not something ordinary clothes would do when exposed to a point blank HIGH EXPLOSIVE blast.

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That will be changing the information used for calculation.
How so?

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Instead of just concluding there was a big explosion, what you should have done is look at the damage that was done, and guess the explosive force based on that.
Sure, if we want to ignore what's said. So, what else do you want to ignore in order to make a theory work? Because we can ignore all sorts of things in order to invent even more theories.

How about we assume it was actually a very small explosion, like a firecracker, and maybe Subaru just tripped backwards and fell through the rubble?

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I'm not a big advocate of Rule of Cool when dealing with anime I'm actually analyzing. But for what its worth, I'll say your attitude actually says it doesn't work for YOU. If you are a subscriber to Rule of Cool, you will suspend disbelief at that whole six second thing and not be thinking too much about whether it makes Vita a dolt - after all, the decision of timing is all just for coolness, suspend your disbelief.

The fact you actually mind it for such reasons says that you are throwing RoC out the window.
No, I'm not. It's always been my opinion that the beam traveled the distance in less than six seconds, maybe 1 or 2 tops, and thus Vita didn't have time to dodge. And watching a beam traveling to it's target like that is kinda cool, so I recognize that's what they were going for, and on a personal level, it does work for me.

I was only stepping back to try and show how your reasoning was flawed. But it's okay, we can drop this point, and I can accept that you think Vita is a dumbass. I don't agree with it, but I can understand why you might think so.

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First, given the way they depict the water, it is actually possible - after all you don't see say the rocks or the bottom on the riverbed either, do you. So the water does provide some camouflage.
But the magic glow would have been in their arms and hands, and/or in the wave of water, which is thin enough. Magic attack, no glow. Oops!

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Further, I see no reason to just assume that every time they punch and kick, their magic must be on. At best, without other evidence, if we really can't see magic-enhanced punches, well, then we'll evaluate whether they were using magic based on whether what they did was within human range. If there is no evidence they are doing superhuman things, well, then, no. Simple, isn't it?
You may want to watch their fights again. Explain this shot:

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/mahou_...1/c004/13.html

Einhart punches Nove in the stomach hard enough to launch her into the air with no magic symbol and no glow for magic. And before you try to explain this one away, realize I can toss a half-a-dozen more at you, which means you'll have to invent different explanations for each and every one of them. Occam's razor; which is simpler? A complex explanation for each? Or a single theory that unites all of them under one?

Plenty of magic attacks without glow or symbol, and you having to invent different explanations for each one of them. "It can't be magic! It, uh, has to be hidden, yeah, that's right!" *new example* "It can't be magic! It, uh, has to be a mistake on her part!" *another example* "It's magic, but the author just forgot to color the glow!" *another example* "It's not magic! It's, uh, she's just a really strong girl, and her muscles are well-hidden!"

How many different excuses do you feel like making? Although, I do admit it will be fun listening to all of them.

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We don't know that she's fairly weak - We were told nearly the exact opposite. If you don't use the given data it is no surprise you aren't getting the right conclusions.
Oh, so we were told she was really strong, and yet nearly died to the drone? Hmm, if it messed up Nanoha that bad, who wasn't weak at all, then Vita should be messed up, too, but she isn't... we must therefore conclude that Vita is stronger than Nanoha!

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Anyway, if you don't think the fighting analogies suitable (having just admitted I was a couch potato, I only tried to do one because you are talking martial arts), then use the running and fighter plane analogies from last time.
No thanks; they weren't very good analogies.

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First the phenomena of a laser spreading out over distance reduces its intensity, not power. Second, the very fact that the statement only guarantees a "super long distance" rather than an "infinite/any distance" is already a clear sign the thing is not a scientifically impossible 100% efficient.
Already told you how distance is also a measure of the targeter's ability to aim and precisely hit. Just because a laser can travel a long distance, is no guarantee you can use it to hit something too far away. Give the shooter in this case is Nanoha, unless she gets some targeting computer hookup boost like Hayate did, she's pretty not going to be able to hit things outside of her scope sight range. Which would imply the limit suggested.

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Third, the statement never said flat out it does not lose power at all. All it promises is that it does not "deteoriate", which can be achieved much more simply by replacing the power lost than trying to prevent it from losing any. Fifth, if it statement really must be that it does not lose any power at all (which will actually force it to self-contradict due to Point 2), it will go up against the visual, which in a scientific analysis would shatter it as soon as the thing glows.
No, it says "no decrease in power over distance." That's physically impossible. Magic really is magic, ya know. All transmission of energy begets losses. If you transmit 5MW of power, you're not going to get 5MW on the other end. What you are suggesting, is that in order to get 5MW of power on the target, one should keep pushing in power to make up for the loss of power, so you'd use 7MW of power to get 5MW on the target. Which means you're still saying there is a loss in transit!

Electrons get stripped off a beam in transit. Radiation disperses. You send 5MW of power out, and not all of it goes directly to target, but heads off in other directions.

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Regardless of whether I like this show (and I'm obvious spending a fair bit of time on it so), I think you can only say whether you like a show or not if you are evaluating it as it is. If you have to deliberately keep imagining that what really happened is different from what is being shown in the show, then what you are liking is not the show itself.
Oh, I like it just fine. You see, my explanation is that it's magic. I'm completely comfortable with that simple explanation covering everything we've talked about. If anything, you're the one not comfortable with timing, BJ's, etc. so that you need to invent a hundred different theories to handle everything, instead of the simple (occam's razor) unified theory that most other people accept.

You're thinking too hard. I've only gone this far because I'm having a lot of fun debating this stuff. =)

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OK, I rechecked and sorry about that. It was in Ep21, and Wendi and Nove were talking about how the rounds are getting sharper, but they agree that are still weak - they call it a "mame teppou", which the translation "spud cannon" works well. The very fact Teana had to make the rounds hit them at the back rather than just going for frontal hits at center of mass, and the fact that one of them came back on line very quickly is good proof how marginal her attack capability is.
Could have just been a boast by Nove, which sounds a lot like something she'd do. Or that she figured it would take more than one shot to "kill" her, but she could certainly be injured or stunned. Given the fact that Wendi and Deed are taken out by one shot a piece later on, it would seem to led credence to that, unless you want to make up yet another separate theory that somehow Nove was tougher than the other two.

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Read what I wrote about that howitzer round. It is HE, and thus is an inefficient penetrator compared to HEAT,[
Ah, yes, it's not a penetrator, but a HIGH EXPLODER. Which is what we're discussing.

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She won't be able to take out two targets at once. On the other hand, the RPG should to allow her to solidly kill the opponent, rather than resorting to the complicated tactic of a back sneak attack, and still having one of those hit getting up and almost becoming her undoing. The flow of the battle would have gone entirely differently so the comparison is both unfair and not really relevant.
Why not? I mean, you're whole argument is that mass-based weapons are better, so we're trying to construct a reasonable scenario here using your criteria. If you just acknowledge that mass-based weapons wouldn't cut it in this situation, then we can move on past it.

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You've got a point on the round count, but consider this. You are about to engage 3 enemies (and remember, the original plan was for team combat so it wasn't supposed to deteoriate to a 1:3). You can have a choice of ammo: You can have say 6 rounds that will kill the enemy for certain as long as you can hit him. Or you can have more rounds, but you'll have to be good and lucky for them to maybe work. Your choice.
No plan survives contact with the enemy. Assuming it does so, means you are an idiot. But then again, most of your argument makes the assumption that people are idiots in this, so I suppose it works for you. Teana is simply one more idiot. And one of the big flaws in your mass-based approach is the ammo limit; as we've seen, magic is almost unlimited. No ammo to weigh you down. They have cartridges, but she can still function without them, albeit in a reduced capacity. That's better than having no ammo, and reduced to 3-on-1 with a knife.

And again, you ignored the question of whether an RPG can take a cyborg out or not. I'm waiting for your answer, before I showcase a few links that will most likely debunk any explanation you come up with, so try to choose your words carefully. =)
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Old 2010-08-14, 03:34   Link #962
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I'm simply using your reasoning. "This device doesn't look like it's doing what it can normally do, therefore it isn't." Yes or no?
Your reasoning is more like "therefore, it can't."

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Even if we take your economic argument, it's also economical to make things similar, using similar parts, even if they have different purposes. Jail has a lot of red tubing around, so it's economical to sheathe extra appendages in them, even if they can't interface. And by the way, the type-1 drone appendages have a sort of plug on the end, while the type three red appendages have a sort of claw. Seems like different purposes to me.
http://picasaweb.google.com/11802003...43271306420290

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Ah, but we're using your argument of "It's not shown, so can't be true!" So since active defenses weren't shown, they can't be true.
You are strawmanning a position that's closer to "It is not shown, there's no necessity, so there's no reason to assume it is true."

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And by the way, the argument was "BJ+auto-barrier" not solely BJ, since it's hard to separate them out. You know, because an auto-barrier is magical, and yet isn't shown glowing like... ever. Hmm, magic without a symbol or glow... how odd...
Fine. I'd say you were concentrating on the BJs before, but if you want to choose to shift to BJ+auto barrier, I suppose we have no major quarrel over how they deal with shock. It also makes you a little smarter than your seniors, most of which try to argue it is the BJ itself.

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Or the outer layer was more protective.
That's fine, but short of it being orders of magnitude more so, it ain't saving Fate., However, since you agree that defenses against shock would be BJ+auto barrier, I suppose we can move on.

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How can I overestimate it? The only information we're given from the audio-only soundstage was that it was a HIGH EXPLOSIVE blast that could take out a tank. How exactly am I supposed to take that? "Oh, it says high explosive, but it really means it was a small explosion." That really what you want to argue? When I visualize a big enough explosion to take out a medium tank, and then compare that to what it would do to a humanoid figure, well, I imagine the humanoid figure becoming fully engulfed.
The soundtrack alone gives you plenty of information to conclude that the "tank" was no medium (as least as we know them), even if we ignore the picture. First,we are engaging a mage. Second, the weapon is a arm transformed into a howitzer, and the ammo is HE. From the arm we can tell that the weapon will 1) not be very big and 2) have limited recoil (read: limited velocity). The fact it is a "howitzer" provides an approximate ratio of length to caliber of 15-25 (part of its definition back when it meant something). Arms (at least mine) are something like 700mm long, so we can infer an arm sized weapon, with a caliber of 30-45mm. The choice of HE ammo is appropriate for anti-personnel BUT actually says something about mages - if we assume their defenses have good anti-kinetic properties, AT rounds like HEAT, HESH or EFP should have been selected to penetrate the defenses. AP rounds might be another option if not for the low velocity of the shooting piece.

Round is fired, long delay to impact. This confirms that the round has a low velocity, which is actually a reasonable consequence of its mounting so don't turn on your denial there like most people.

Now, our Miriage tells us this round can kill a tank. What kind of tank can a 30-45mm HE round, shot at low velocity, kill? Probably a light tank or a tankette, maybe even a "war wagon" (Kampfwagen = sensya). Certainly, it won't defeat over 200mm of armor.

She then tells us a mage shouldn't survive it, which goes on to confirm what we can begin to surmise by the time we hear "HE". Now we see Subaru survive it, with perhaps less clothing damage than we predicted. Go on to revise the estimate of yield downwards, and along with the "war wagon".

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point blank HIGH EXPLOSIVE blast.
Maybe it wasn't so exposed, like I surmise.

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How so?
Sure, if we want to ignore what's said. So, what else do you want to ignore in order to make a theory work? Because we can ignore all sorts of things in order to invent even more theories.[/quote]

Your solution basically ignores the last line the Miriage said, so even if that's true, it doesn't make you better. As for me, I just agilely use the maneuvering room provided by the imprecision of the "tank" line.

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How about we assume it was actually a very small explosion, like a firecracker, and maybe Subaru just tripped backwards and fell through the rubble?
While a firecracker is your exaggeration, not mine, that's the basic drift the combined canon is forcing us to head towards for this incident.

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No, I'm not. It's always been my opinion that the beam traveled the distance in less than six seconds, maybe 1 or 2 tops, and thus Vita didn't have time to dodge. And watching a beam traveling to it's target like that is kinda cool, so I recognize that's what they were going for, and on a personal level, it does work for me.
Oh, there is no flawed reasoning for taking it as is. As for the idea that beam traveled the distance in 1-2 seconds, it is a very common

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But the magic glow would have been in their arms and hands, and/or in the wave of water, which is thin enough. Magic attack, no glow. Oops!
My point was that magic attacks have highly visible signatures.

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You may want to watch their fights again. Explain this shot:

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/mahou_...1/c004/13.html

Einhart punches Nove in the stomach hard enough to launch her into the air with no magic symbol and no glow for magic. And before you try to explain this one away, realize I can toss a half-a-dozen more at you, which means you'll have to invent different explanations for each and every one of them. Occam's razor; which is simpler? A complex explanation for each? Or a single theory that unites all of them under one?
Starting from the premise both work, a complex sounding explanation that does not involve our "5th force of physics" is arguably simpler, in scientific terms, than a simple sounding explanation that involves it.

Further, while you say you have more, you should not have misidentified WHO was providing the power to leap into the air for your vanguard example. Nove was punched in the gut, and to separate kicked the floor and leapt up herself.

Finally, as I said, the entire idea Precia used magic is unfalsifiable. Even if I smoothly handle all six of your examples, you will simply insist there are ways for Precia to use magic covertly, even though we see no sign and no reason for it. (By the way, that Fate's barrier jacket was torn is not a reason since that's the subject being checked).

So instead, prove that there is a high probability Precia used magic (not just "it is possible") in her whipping.

Besides, I don't know why a person who has to imagine his MGLN as faster and more powerful than it really is to enjoy it wants "magic" to be the explanation anyway. (There's no scientific necessity so it is a personal desire). I mean, S-rank Precia is using magic after magic as she whips Fate with only a barrier jacket and Fate isn't dead? Not being blown left and right across the room? If you want to blame the magic powered binds (again, glowing) then why aren't her wrists coming out of their sockets. Only superficially wounded and still conscious? Wow, the limitations of magic itself are on the table. I guess you'll now say Precia controlled herself ... controlled herself until from what we see we can't clearly distinguish any use of magic. Which makes the whole point of whether she used magic almost moot - she used magic so she can whip Fate ... like a guy who isn't using magic! On the calculation this would be equivalent to a non-magical physical whipping!

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Oh, so we were told she was really strong, and yet nearly died to the drone? Hmm, if it messed up Nanoha that bad, who wasn't weak at all, then Vita should be messed up, too, but she isn't... we must therefore conclude that Vita is stronger than Nanoha!
One, thanks to being still part hologram, Vita is probably more survivable than Nanoha.

Second, the conclusion you should start facing is that Nanoha and Vita are strong, but even strong mages don't get shanked (physical attack) and come out of it in decent shape.

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No, it says "no decrease in power over distance." That's physically impossible. Magic really is magic, ya know. All transmission of energy begets losses. If you transmit 5MW of power, you're not going to get 5MW on the other end. What you are suggesting, is that in order to get 5MW of power on the target, one should keep pushing in power to make up for the loss of power, so you'd use 7MW of power to get 5MW on the target. Which means you're still saying there is a loss in transit!
Let's settle for "no decrease in power over a certain (super-long) distance". Have you considered the obvious solution is that power was not decreased because it was constantly being replaced rather than it being a no-loss thing?

Besides, after you basically stated that the Miriage can't be right in her assessment that the blast would have killed a mage and that Shamal was wrong to call Nanoha only "slightly less capable" (you seem to think she was near dead), and after you called the explanation in the manga not quite exact, your sudden literal faith in a particular line in the booklet is ... amusing.

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Could have just been a boast by Nove, which sounds a lot like something she'd do. Or that she figured it would take more than one shot to "kill" her, but she could certainly be injured or stunned. Given the fact that Wendi and Deed are taken out by one shot a piece later on, it would seem to led credence to that, unless you want to make up yet another separate theory that somehow Nove was tougher than the other two.
Actually there is a good case for saying Nove, as a dedicated close combat type, would be somewhat tougher than the other two though I don't think it'll be to the degree we can observe the difference with unambiguity.

In any case, Wendi agrees. Teana agrees so resorts to sneak attacks and even then Deed climbs up in a short time. The marginal effectiveness is obvious.

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Why not? I mean, you're whole argument is that mass-based weapons are better, so we're trying to construct a reasonable scenario here using your criteria. If you just acknowledge that mass-based weapons wouldn't cut it in this situation, then we can move on past it.

A reasonable scenario does not involve placing one side in a situation that is created because of tactics based around very different means. It is like me saying Guns are better and you saying Swords are better, and you saying "What if you get into a close range fight with a gun against a swordsman".

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\And one of the big flaws in your mass-based approach is the ammo limit;
Limitation. Not a flaw.

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as we've seen, magic is almost unlimited. No ammo to weigh you down. They have cartridges, but she can still function without them, albeit in a reduced capacity. That's better than having no ammo, and reduced to 3-on-1 with a knife.
As I said, in this case it is traded off by increased effectiveness per hit.

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And again, you ignored the question of whether an RPG can take a cyborg out or not. I'm waiting for your answer, before I showcase a few links that will most likely debunk any explanation you come up with, so try to choose your words carefully. =)
You should have been able to read out the answer from the previous post and everything above. But the answer is, yes. If you want to dispute this, please prove that a Cyborg's defensive protection exceeds ~300mm RHA equivalent. Then you might want to prove it exceeds 500-600mm, just to defeat the newer RPG rounds. If you can't prove that a Cyborg has >300mm, then try to prove it has say >50mm, so at least it can defeat a 40mm HEDP (with some HEAT capability) round.
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Old 2010-08-14, 10:53   Link #963
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Don't be dishonest. If you keep watching episode 5 when Erio fights the type-3, you'll see those ends open up into 3-pronged claws. In one case, the type-3 is anchoring itself through a doorway as Erio forces it back.

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You are strawmanning a position that's closer to "It is not shown, there's no necessity, so there's no reason to assume it is true."
Ah, you're changing your reasoning, then. See, you want us to assume Fate used magic in active defenses through her crash, even though it wasn't shown. And yet, you want us to assume Precia *didn't* use magic, even though it wasn't shown.

So which are you going with? Is magic used when it isn't shown? Or is it not? I mean, we can both admit we don't know one way or the other, but at least be consistent in your theory. Myself, I assume magic is used both cases.

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Fine. I'd say you were concentrating on the BJs before, but if you want to choose to shift to BJ+auto barrier, I suppose we have no major quarrel over how they deal with shock. It also makes you a little smarter than your seniors, most of which try to argue it is the BJ itself.
I fail to see why the auto-barrier shouldn't be included. We can never tell when it's "on" (due to no glow, imagine that!), but it's hard to really tell how much of an impact or attack is tanked by the BJ or auto-barrier, so I just toss both together, and say they work together magically somehow.

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The soundtrack alone gives you plenty of information to conclude that the "tank" was no medium (as least as we know them), even if we ignore the picture....
Round is fired, long delay to impact. This confirms that the round has a low velocity, which is actually a reasonable consequence of its mounting so don't turn on your denial there like most people.
The problem is you're trying to assume too much. Saying "the tank was no medium" is a Wild Mass Guess. I only picked medium to try and stay in the middle, but for all we know, it could have been a blast big enough to take out a big tank. The other problem is that you're trying to apply Earth weaponry to a being created of much-higher technology. Such a being could fire off a pebble(heh) that has enough high explosive power to take out a tank, just due to higher technology.

So the only things we can rely on for sure, is just that it's a High Explosive round that could take out a tank. Velocity, firing time, etc. means nothing.

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Your solution basically ignores the last line the Miriage said, so even if that's true, it doesn't make you better. As for me, I just agilely use the maneuvering room provided by the imprecision of the "tank" line.
No it doesn't. I take it for face value; the mariage knew it was an HE round that can take out a tank, and was surprised Subaru survived. You have to assume the mariage is being disengenuous when saying "it could take out a tank" really meaning "it could, maybe, take out a tank. A small one. With light armor." If that was the case, she might have just said it could take out an unarmored vehicle in one shot. She didn't. She said tank, so she must have good reason to believe the round could take out a variety of tanks.

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While a firecracker is your exaggeration, not mine, that's the basic drift the combined canon is forcing us to head towards for this incident.
I was mostly joking by saying firecracker, but you honestly want to suggest that's what it was? Something not much bigger than a firecracker? Wow....

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Oh, there is no flawed reasoning for taking it as is. As for the idea that beam traveled the distance in 1-2 seconds, it is a very common
No flawed reasoning... just accepting that Vita was an idiot.

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My point was that magic attacks have highly visible signatures.
And yet... you are shown magic attacks without highly visible signatures and still cling to that theory. Nanoha's Flash Move doesn't use a glow or symbol. Barrel Shot doesn't really use a glow.

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Further, while you say you have more, you should not have misidentified WHO was providing the power to leap into the air for your vanguard example. Nove was punched in the gut, and to separate kicked the floor and leapt up herself.
Because it wasn't totally Nove, either. Einhart used magic for a punch, and Nove to try and weaken the impact, launched herself backwards, taking some of the momentum with her to lessen the blow. You can also go to any of Vivio or Einhart's fights to see magic strengthened attacks without a glow.

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Finally, as I said, the entire idea Precia used magic is unfalsifiable. Even if I smoothly handle all six of your examples, you will simply insist there are ways for Precia to use magic covertly, even though we see no sign and no reason for it. (By the way, that Fate's barrier jacket was torn is not a reason since that's the subject being checked).
The problem is, non-magical whipping has a decent chance of injuring her badly, and Precia still needs Fate alive and functioning. Magic would allow pain, without much of the damage. Not using magic would be kinda stupid. Then again, youre perspective is that everyone is stupid....

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I mean, S-rank Precia is using magic after magic as she whips Fate with only a barrier jacket and Fate isn't dead? Not being blown left and right across the room? If you want to blame the magic powered binds (again, glowing) then why aren't her wrists coming out of their sockets. Only superficially wounded and still conscious? Wow, the limitations of magic itself are on the table. I guess you'll now say Precia controlled herself ... controlled herself until from what we see we can't clearly distinguish any use of magic.
Not sure what you're smoking, but yes, Precia did control herself. You've already admitted that magic is versatile, so why not accept it here? Oh, that's right, no glow. Despite the fact that we have magic attacks without glows. Hmm....

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Let's settle for "no decrease in power over a certain (super-long) distance". Have you considered the obvious solution is that power was not decreased because it was constantly being replaced rather than it being a no-loss thing?
Have you considered that you just admitted it was losing power? You said "replace" which pretty much means that power is lost, so you can replace it. Try your explanation again without using the word "replace." Remember, the DBE isn't losing power at all, so there is nothing that needs to be replaced.

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Besides, after you basically stated that the Miriage can't be right in her assessment that the blast would have killed a mage and that Shamal was wrong to call Nanoha only "slightly less capable" (you seem to think she was near dead), and after you called the explanation in the manga not quite exact, your sudden literal faith in a particular line in the booklet is ... amusing.
Nope, didn't say Nanoha was near death. But the whole impression we are given is that Nanoha has overstressed her body, and it finally failed at this point. She was weaker than usual and was hiding it from her friends; that was the whole point of the conversation, to show that overdoing it leads to critical failure.

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Actually there is a good case for saying Nove, as a dedicated close combat type, would be somewhat tougher than the other two though I don't think it'll be to the degree we can observe the difference with unambiguity.
Wild Mass Guessing, no proof, same old story.

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Limitation. Not a flaw.
Heh, pedantic.

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As I said, in this case it is traded off by increased effectiveness per hit.
Oh, really? We'll get back to this, but it was effective enough to take out Wendi with a shot.

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You should have been able to read out the answer from the previous post and everything above. But the answer is, yes. If you want to dispute this, please prove that a Cyborg's defensive protection exceeds ~300mm RHA equivalent. Then you might want to prove it exceeds 500-600mm, just to defeat the newer RPG rounds. If you can't prove that a Cyborg has >300mm, then try to prove it has say >50mm, so at least it can defeat a 40mm HEDP (with some HEAT capability) round.
Thank you, thank you, thank you! Then you've just admitted that the mariage should have been able to take out Subaru.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/rpg3.htm

"The "original" RPG -- based on the German Panzerfaust anti-tank weapon... The most commonly launched grenades are a High Explosive(HE) or High Explosive Anti Tank (HEAT) rounds."

And so you claim that firing an HE or HEAT round can take out a cyborg... but not take out a cyborg mage. Hmmm... what is the single difference between a cyborg and cyborg mage....
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Old 2010-08-14, 11:55   Link #964
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Don't be dishonest. If you keep watching episode 5 when Erio fights the type-3, you'll see those ends open up into 3-pronged claws. In one case, the type-3 is anchoring itself through a doorway as Erio forces it back.
Interesting! I didn't really notice those red stubs have this functionality. Aaah, red tentacles, the flexible tool of the Gadgets.

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Ah, you're changing your reasoning, then. See, you want us to assume Fate used magic in active defenses through her crash, even though it wasn't shown. And yet, you want us to assume Precia *didn't* use magic, even though it wasn't shown.
"Want" doesn't come into it. Since we are analyzing the situation scientifically, and Fate cannot realistically have survived without an active defense, we are forced to figure it is there. Precia did not show it and it was un-necessary, so we figure she did not.

By the way, since I think I was saying active defense was the way Fate stayed alive well before you came into this board, I won't say I'm changing my reasoning.

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I fail to see why the auto-barrier shouldn't be included. We can never tell when it's "on" (due to no glow, imagine that!), but it's hard to really tell how much of an impact or attack is tanked by the BJ or auto-barrier, so I just toss both together, and say they work together magically somehow.
Well, I'll say for the sake of your own position, I'll suggest that you dissociate the auto barrier whenever it is not a scientific must (like, it wasn't seen or it wasn't necessary). The defense was penetrated with or without the AB, so your choices are to say "It penetrated the BJ and the AB didn't fire (which means it probably won't fire when the bullets come in too)", so at least you can say maybe if only the AB came on it is different, or you can say "it punched through the BJ and AB".

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The problem is you're trying to assume too much. Saying "the tank was no medium" is a Wild Mass Guess. I only picked medium to try and stay in the middle, but for all we know, it could have been a blast big enough to take out a big tank. The other problem is that you're trying to apply Earth weaponry to a being created of much-higher technology. Such a being could fire off a pebble(heh) that has enough high explosive power to take out a tank, just due to higher technology.

No it doesn't. I take it for face value; the mariage knew it was an HE round that can take out a tank, and was surprised Subaru survived. You have to assume the mariage is being disengenuous when saying "it could take out a tank" really meaning "it could, maybe, take out a tank. A small one. With light armor." If that was the case, she might have just said it could take out an unarmored vehicle in one shot. She didn't. She said tank, so she must have good reason to believe the round could take out a variety of tanks.
Well, considering that you aren't as eager to take at face value that a normal human (mage) won't have survived, I'll just call this hypocritical. I'll grant the idea that the tank is a "medium" is a reasonable first stab in the absence of any other knowledge, but since as I explained it wasn't the case, it is no longer just a wild guess, but disqualified.

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I was mostly joking by saying firecracker, but you honestly want to suggest that's what it was? Something not much bigger than a firecracker? Wow....
I know you are being sarcastic. Unfortunately, the canon is not being sarcastic, though it isn't quite as bad as a firecracker. Don't like it? Write the author. Maybe he'll actually change the story just for you ...

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And yet... you are shown magic attacks without highly visible signatures and still cling to that theory. Nanoha's Flash Move doesn't use a glow or symbol. Barrel Shot doesn't really use a glow.
Flash Move is not an attack. Barrel Shot has nice rings - that's why it is "Barrel" Shot.

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Because it wasn't totally Nove, either. Einhart used magic for a punch, and Nove to try and weaken the impact, launched herself backwards, taking some of the momentum with her to lessen the blow. You can also go to any of Vivio or Einhart's fights to see magic strengthened attacks without a glow.
Yeah, it wasn't Nove totally, From the looks of it, it was 95% Nove, since you saw her kick the ground herself

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The problem is, non-magical whipping has a decent chance of injuring her badly, and Precia still needs Fate alive and functioning. Magic would allow pain, without much of the damage. Not using magic would be kinda stupid. Then again, youre perspective is that everyone is stupid....
Actually, magical whipping is liable to throw Fate around the room. It is non-magical whipping (or magical whipping that seems to produce similar levels of force as non-magical whipping, and thus may as well be called non-magical whipping as far as our calculations are concerned) that produces those relatively light wounds.

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Have you considered that you just admitted it was losing power? You said "replace" which pretty much means that power is lost, so you can replace it. Try your explanation again without using the word "replace." Remember, the DBE isn't losing power at all, so there is nothing that needs to be replaced.
It isn't losing power because it is being replaced. If I told you a rocket doesn't lose speed in the air, would you assume I meant that the rocket's cruise mode produces enough thrust to keep it at the same velocity or do you think it is a magi-rocket that doesn't interact with the air at all?

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Nope, didn't say Nanoha was near death. But the whole impression we are given is that Nanoha has overstressed her body, and it finally failed at this point. She was weaker than usual and was hiding it from her friends; that was the whole point of the conversation, to show that overdoing it leads to critical failure.
Aah, appeals to vague themes > statements. But then, this is your modus operandi - just shut your eyes to anything unpleasant.

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Oh, really? We'll get back to this, but it was effective enough to take out Wendi with a shot.
A 50% disabling rate in carefully set up conditions not an effective round make. According the statistics by Marshall and Sanow, in real-life one FMJ 9mm Parabellum hit has about a 62% chance of incapacitating a human, and decent JHP ammo over 80-90 - this includes all the less than well-placed hits. And people still complain the 9 mil as not having enough stopping power. 50% after everything is set up for a one-time, everything goes right thing is miserable.

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"The "original" RPG -- based on the German Panzerfaust anti-tank weapon... The most commonly launched grenades are a High Explosive(HE) or High Explosive Anti Tank (HEAT) rounds."

And so you claim that firing an HE or HEAT round can take out a cyborg... but not take out a cyborg mage. Hmmm... what is the single difference between a cyborg and cyborg mage....
No, I said a HEAT RPG-7 round will take the cyborg. I also said that a HEDP round (emphasis on DP here) may kill the cyborg as well.

I see you've failed to meet my challenge of showing the Cyborg's protective ability, so I guess I can safely say that RPGs can kill cyborgs (which are substantially more resillent than mages).
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Old 2010-08-14, 14:46   Link #965
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Interesting! I didn't really notice those red stubs have this functionality. Aaah, red tentacles, the flexible tool of the Gadgets.
And since we never see the type-1's use the claws, they must use a different type. =)

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"Want" doesn't come into it. Since we are analyzing the situation scientifically, and Fate cannot realistically have survived without an active defense, we are forced to figure it is there. Precia did not show it and it was un-necessary, so we figure she did not.
"Realistically"? You're using that term in reference to Fate survived a high fall that sent her through several floors? When we're talking about magic? Realistically doesn't enter into it. The how or why isn't important (at least, that's been my stance); she survived due to magic. You can assume she used active defenses if you wish, even though there is no evidence of it. But saying for sure that it happened one way and not the other, well, that's just being disingenuous.

The problem is you want to say, "It happened this way, no ifs, ands, or buts." But in order to make that statement, you have to back it up with proof, and so far, you haven't. That pretty much works with the rest of your many varied and inconsistent theories. You want to have your cake and eat it, too, and it doesn't quite work that way.

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Well, I'll say for the sake of your own position, I'll suggest that you dissociate the auto barrier whenever it is not a scientific must (like, it wasn't seen or it wasn't necessary). The defense was penetrated with or without the AB, so your choices are to say "It penetrated the BJ and the AB didn't fire (which means it probably won't fire when the bullets come in too)", so at least you can say maybe if only the AB came on it is different, or you can say "it punched through the BJ and AB".
Except, it's not science; it's magic. Trying to apply specific scientific principles to magic spells is a fool's errand. That's what trips you up, although believe me, I understand the urge. We humans like to have everything be knowable and be understood, and it drives us nuts to think something is unknowable. I love science myself, but I know better than to rigorously apply it to a show about magic.

When the stage magician does his tricks, they appear to be magic, because they seemingly bend the laws of physics and reality. Once you apply science and understand the trick, it ceases to be magic. Thus, you can have one or the other, but not both; it's a binary choice.

And you really can't separate the BJ from the auto-barrier, since it's insanely difficult to tell what each is doing. About the only case where an auto-barrier was used that a BJ wasn't, was when Teana took Vice's bike out. If they had crashed, I supposed it would have been a nice test case, but nothing happened. Everytime an auto-barrier has been stressed, a BJ has been present, so it's impossible to figure out which does which.

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Well, considering that you aren't as eager to take at face value that a normal human (mage) won't have survived, I'll just call this hypocritical. I'll grant the idea that the tank is a "medium" is a reasonable first stab in the absence of any other knowledge, but since as I explained it wasn't the case, it is no longer just a wild guess, but disqualified.
Actually, it's been my stance from the beginning that a normal human mage would have survived. I only bent a bit for the sake of argument, to show how your argument was infeasible. You see, in order to make your theory work, you have to assume all sorts of things, incorporating many unspoken variables, ie, that the HE round that would take out a tank, is actually a firecracker and Subaru just tripped. Occam's Razor aims for simplicity, and your theories are quite complex. It doesn't get much simpler than saying, "it's magic."

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I know you are being sarcastic. Unfortunately, the canon is not being sarcastic, though it isn't quite as bad as a firecracker. Don't like it? Write the author. Maybe he'll actually change the story just for you ...
Actually, since there is no indication of a firecracker, I have no need to write him. Perhaps you should, though? Say something like, "I don't understand, you aren't giving us enough detail such that I'm forced to come up with convoluted theories!" I wonder what his response would be? Perhaps just, "I wasn't really thinking that hard on it; I just assumed the magic took care of things, and I assumed everyone else would to. Do I have to spell everything out for you?"

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Flash Move is not an attack. Barrel Shot has nice rings - that's why it is "Barrel" Shot.
But no glow. And you've admitted that magic can happen without a glow, so your theory is looking a little more shaky now, ain't it?

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Yeah, it wasn't Nove totally, From the looks of it, it was 95% Nove, since you saw her kick the ground herself
Ah, nice numbers you pulled out of your ass. I find when people are forced to do that, they know they are on shaky ground. If I were going to pull numbers, I'd be willing to grant 50/50, but even still, it was a magic attack without a glow. Even if we take your 95%, that still means 5%, which is good enough for a magic attack. Thank you for your changing your mind about the glow. =)

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Actually, magical whipping is liable to throw Fate around the room. It is non-magical whipping (or magical whipping that seems to produce similar levels of force as non-magical whipping, and thus may as well be called non-magical whipping as far as our calculations are concerned) that produces those relatively light wounds.
So, you are completely unable to accept that a mage is capable of controlling their magic strength level?

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It isn't losing power because it is being replaced. If I told you a rocket doesn't lose speed in the air, would you assume I meant that the rocket's cruise mode produces enough thrust to keep it at the same velocity or do you think it is a magi-rocket that doesn't interact with the air at all?
Yes, a rocket does lose power, which is why it has to be constantly replaced. If you poke a hole in a large keg, it will start leaking. You can keep replacing the beer inside, but it doesn't change the fact that you're losing beer at the same time.

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Aah, appeals to vague themes > statements. But then, this is your modus operandi - just shut your eyes to anything unpleasant.
And your modis operandi is to avoid responding to a statement, and instead go with ad hominem. I find when people do that, they know they can't respond. Seriously, did you completely miss the lesson they were trying to teach Teana and the Forwards? It was pretty blatant: "Overworking yourself leads to critical failure. Nanoha went through it, and doesn't want anyone else to."

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A 50% disabling rate in carefully set up conditions not an effective round make.
Maybe, it all depends on what other factors make up the weapon. If I have near infinite ammo and can fire off a ton of shots, I don't care if it's a 50% disabling rate; with enough shots, I can disable any target. And I personally consider that better than having just six shots for 3 targets, when there's a 90% that a shot won't take out said target.

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No, I said a HEAT RPG-7 round will take the cyborg. I also said that a HEDP round (emphasis on DP here) may kill the cyborg as well.

I see you've failed to meet my challenge of showing the Cyborg's protective ability, so I guess I can safely say that RPGs can kill cyborgs (which are substantially more resillent than mages).
Okay, an HE round can take out a cyborg, like Subaru... except Subaru survived. So, thank you for admitting that magic is what saved Subaru. I was a bit worried you were going to say, "Oh wait, no, an RPG couldn't take out a cyborg after all" which would have left your Subaru argument intact.

"But no! Subaru was hit with a firecracker! Please, let's stick with the firecracker explanation, because it's the only way my theory makes sense!"

And you know what, you're right! Your whole theory is "Everyone is stupid" so why should the mariage be any different? Obviously, in a fit of stupidity, it fired a firecracker at Subaru, and was totally surprised she survived! Man, I love this theory! I have only to assume everyone is an idiot, and everything works so great!
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Old 2010-08-14, 15:09   Link #966
Keroko
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We humans like to have everything be knowable and be understood, and it drives us nuts to think something is unknowable. I love science myself, but I know better than to rigorously apply it to a show about magic.
Except for scientists. They love to find things unknowable, because that's basically their job: Finding out how things that nobody understands work.

Magic is one of these things. Take the DBE 'doesn't lose power over distance' case. People are quick to point out that energy doesn't work this way, but the quote is pretty clear on it. What it means is quite simple: Magic doesn't work like regular energy. And why should it? It's an entirely different form of energy, why should it work the way regular energy does?

We already know magic can do things impossible by regular science. It can bring conscious awareness to normally unaware plantlife, it can allow creatures to grow to sizes biologically impossible, it can transport objects through solid matter over large distances, it can resurrect objects even after their total destruction, it can impart memories of past lives to descendants, and the list just keeps growing.

So with this list, why then is the idea that magic can block heavy attacks through scientifically impossible means so ridiculous?
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Old 2010-08-14, 19:23   Link #967
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Except for scientists. They love to find things unknowable, because that's basically their job: Finding out how things that nobody understands work.

Magic is one of these things. Take the DBE 'doesn't lose power over distance' case. People are quick to point out that energy doesn't work this way, but the quote is pretty clear on it. What it means is quite simple: Magic doesn't work like regular energy. And why should it? It's an entirely different form of energy, why should it work the way regular energy does?

We already know magic can do things impossible by regular science. It can bring conscious awareness to normally unaware plantlife, it can allow creatures to grow to sizes biologically impossible, it can transport objects through solid matter over large distances, it can resurrect objects even after their total destruction, it can impart memories of past lives to descendants, and the list just keeps growing.

So with this list, why then is the idea that magic can block heavy attacks through scientifically impossible means so ridiculous?
What you say is true, and it's been my viewpoint from the beginning that magic has no problems blocking mass-based attacks. What ark is trying to argue, is that mages basically stand no chance against mass-based weapons, or that in most situations mass-based would somehow be more effective.

But when we're given example after example of mages surviving mass-based attacks, it kinda weakens the argument that mass-based is as good as one might think. Obviously, this is up to a point, as a nuke would most likely take out mages. But bullets, RPG's, missiles, shells, etc. clearly don't prove much of a threat; Jail needed AMF for his drones to even begin to reach a parity with red shirt mages.

Anyway, as someone with a deep love of science myself, I contend that we don't have enough information to quantify Nanohaverse magic exactly yet. We can put up some comparisons, and realize it's clearly fairly versatile and powerful, but not enough to explain everything. Someone is more than welcome to fill in blanks with guesses, presumably with regards to fanfiction to make a story (I did some similar things), but it's not canon.

And as a scientist, until I see hard data on the nature of magical particles, I am forced to accept magic for what it is: magic. As the name implies, it's inherently mysteriously.
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Old 2010-09-05, 11:25   Link #968
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Personally, I'm more of the opinion that the Bureau doesn't actively guard against mass-based threats simply because those aren't the threats it's been facing.

Gadgets aside, all the threats we've seen in the anime series have been magic users; because of the the Bureau will then orient towards dealing with magic-using threats. To use the example of beat cops: beat cops in the UK wear stab vests, body armor designed to protect against stabbing and knives, because those are the threats they face there - the level of gun crime is very low. Cops in Iraq, on the other hand, wear ballistic vests, because every Tom, Dick and Harry has an AK-47 over there.

Different threats, different protection orientation.

To be fair, mass-based weapons have certain advantages. There's no power discharge to tip off your targets, and they're great at setting ambushes. Magic gives you more versatility in that you can quickly reconfigure your device to fit different attack profiles, as well as more endurance and simpler logistics - all you need to do is to make sure your mages are well-fed and healthy.

*sighs* OH well, as the Reverend Professor has said before, this is all my fault. I had OCs who were stubborn gun users who wanted to keep their guns, damnit, and the Bureau only gets their guns from their cold dead fingers.

That said, the situations where I envision conventional weapons being of best use against mages generally won't be showing up anytime soon - I tend to envision these situations as houses wired to blow, or ambush points with machine guns, smoke, grenades, claymores, IEDs...

...actually, IEDs would be a problem on Orussia, I'd think...
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Old 2010-09-05, 18:52   Link #969
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Except canon decided to focus on bipedal war machines in the old Orussia problem before drowning it in Mariage Of The Dead. Onore Tsuzuki. :<
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Old 2010-09-08, 04:12   Link #970
Keroko
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Personally, I'm more of the opinion that the Bureau doesn't actively guard against mass-based threats simply because those aren't the threats it's been facing.
That's bull, plain and simple. We already have a confirmed gun using criminal in SSX, and that guy was a simple poacher. If a simple poacher already uses regular guns, why wouldn't any more organized crime? If organized crime uses them, why would the leave TSAB space alone? Especially if guns are oh-so-effective.

This is, of course, ignoring the fact that one of the TSAB's goals is to root out mass-based weaponry. They were founded with the idea that they would face mass-based weaponry, and so far every single time they encountered mass-based weaponry, be it gadget drones firing missiles, the poacher taking shots at Erio or mirage firing anti-tank shells at Subaru in SSX, the mass-based weapon just plainly lost.

The only really logical explanation why every criminal and their mother isn't just throwing themselves on mass-based weapons and using them to pulverize the TSAB is simply because magic can guard against them. And quite efficiently too.
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Old 2010-09-08, 08:22   Link #971
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Actually, if we are to take those examples to say that magic can guard against mass, then we may as well take all the data in the example, which leads to a conclusion that if magic wins against mass in the TSAB worlds, it is to a great extent because the mass weapons employed simply lack the advantages they do in the real world. They lack speed, they have long warning times, and apparently they don't even have all that much power.

I suppose if you close your eyes to enough aspects of canon performance in the Nanoverse, you can come up with a solution where magiweapons are superior in all categories, but that has little resemblance to what is shown.
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Old 2010-09-08, 09:24   Link #972
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So... The mass-weapons suck because whoever made them made them really shit?

Or is this just proof that what we accept as fact just cannot apply to a grossly-inaccurate anime in which even reality and the laws of physics themselves have been left aside for the Rule of Cool, magic AND science included? The same Rule of Cool that has left the magical girl fans facepalming and mechaboys squealing? The same RoCthat is used every Batman corner of the series that surmounts even the best tactics?

Which I do recall was being put forward as the reason why these debates do nothing other than go around in circles. In Nanoha, RoC rules... and nothing was made to reign it in.
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Old 2010-09-08, 10:22   Link #973
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, if we are to take those examples to say that magic can guard against mass, then we may as well take all the data in the example, which leads to a conclusion that if magic wins against mass in the TSAB worlds, it is to a great extent because the mass weapons employed simply lack the advantages they do in the real world. They lack speed, they have long warning times, and apparently they don't even have all that much power.

I suppose if you close your eyes to enough aspects of canon performance in the Nanoverse, you can come up with a solution where magiweapons are superior in all categories, but that has little resemblance to what is shown.
It's cute that your whole argument, the only way you can rationalize things, boils down to, "Obviously, mass-base weapons in this high-tech society are deliberately made crappier than the ones we know on Earth!"

Which breaks the whole "logic" thing. And the whole "Occam's Razor" thing. But you don't seem to let those minor things get in the way....
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Old 2010-09-08, 10:34   Link #974
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, if we are to take those examples to say that magic can guard against mass, then we may as well take all the data in the example, which leads to a conclusion that if magic wins against mass in the TSAB worlds, it is to a great extent because the mass weapons employed simply lack the advantages they do in the real world. They lack speed, they have long warning times, and apparently they don't even have all that much power.

I suppose if you close your eyes to enough aspects of canon performance in the Nanoverse, you can come up with a solution where magiweapons are superior in all categories, but that has little resemblance to what is shown.
And what's stopping criminals from popping over to earth and buying or stealing our 'superior' weapons? You know, like any organization that wants to have the upper hand would do? Or even just the plans and then manufacture their own? Really, this argument holds not even a shred of logic.

Once again you fall back to framerates and counting seconds, while ignoring that doing so will cause nearly any anime out there to have crappy technology. Macross missiles slow to a crawl, bullets suddenly lose their speeds etc. etc. All the while creating gargantuan plotholes in the anime you're trying to explain as well.
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Old 2010-09-08, 10:46   Link #975
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And what's stopping criminals from popping over to earth and buying or stealing our 'superior' weapons? You know, like any organization that wants to have the upper hand would do? Or even just the plans and then manufacture their own? Really, this argument holds not even a shred of logic.
Since when has ark been known for his logic? You do recall this is the same guy who introduced the Crappy Mid-Childan Concrete Theory in the Magic and Tech thread, right?
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Old 2010-09-08, 13:30   Link #976
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And what's stopping criminals from popping over to earth and buying or stealing our 'superior' weapons?
The weapons used by the troops in the first few chapters of Force suggest that they really like the M16 line of assault rifles. That or whoever designed it for their troops was a reincarnation of Eugene Stoner.
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Old 2010-09-08, 13:38   Link #977
LoweGear
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Originally Posted by Tempy View Post
The weapons used by the troops in the first few chapters of Force suggest that they really like the M16 line of assault rifles. That or whoever designed it for their troops was a reincarnation of Eugene Stoner.
3rd suggestion: (un)licensed manufacturing - someone got the plans for the M16A1 and starting producing and selling it. Why spend time, money and brains trying to come up with a new concept weapon when you have an already successful weapon design you can just rip-off... like most third-world weapon manufacturers do today?
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Old 2010-09-08, 13:59   Link #978
Tempy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
3rd suggestion: (un)licensed manufacturing - someone got the plans for the M16A1 and starting producing and selling it. Why spend time, money and brains trying to come up with a new concept weapon when you have an already successful weapon design you can just rip-off... like most third-world weapon manufacturers do today?
That still suggests that a world far far removed from Earth is using technology and design taken from the planet. It's one thing to design a gun; it's another to make one that looks exactly like the M16 line. Though, they're a little outdated; the troops seem to have the M16A1.
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Old 2010-09-08, 14:02   Link #979
prescience
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I don't see what the problem with that theory is. If they lack expertise in designing firearms themselves, simply producing them from an existing design would be a logical starting point, at least. Of course, this is assuming they didn't just pop over and steal a bunch of the actual guns.
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Old 2010-09-08, 17:13   Link #980
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Another explanation: form follows function. There is usually always a "most efficient" method for designing your chemically-propelled projectile weapons. Creating gunpowder should be trivial for anyone with a mild knowledge base in chemistry. Following that, the rest of the weapon would gradually evolve into something we have today on Earth.
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