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Old 2007-09-03, 07:55   Link #81
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Frankenstein's Clare View Post
Unless I missed something, the only barrier that went up was the one Yuuno used for the transfer. They don't need a barrier to do the sealing; Nanoha did her first few without any.
You need it so as not to attract too much attention, both from regular civilians and the nosy TSAB.

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I'm aware that she uses visual illusions. What I'm differentiating between is device-based caster-guided scanning versus conventional-tech scanning.
And I'm disputing that in the magitech world Midchildra, there is much difference.

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Lol? The last time I checked the average drone is a lot bigger than RH, but they don't really compare as weapons.
1) They don't take advantage of the well established magical tech base.
2) The drones have their own power source. RH basically sucks off a mage.
3) The drones are cheap throwaways. I'm presuming the TSAB to be using the best equipment they can buy.

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This is still a magical girl anime. The devices have the intrinsic advantage of having an actual mage attached. If large tech-operated magitech systems could consistently outperform a mage-device pair, there wouldn't be a show.
One word: Arcenciel. A Magitech system that can outperform mages. QED.

This is also, by the way, the anime where a mage fires under Ground Controlled Intercept conditions! Certainly, Hayate's aiming is not one of the things that consistently outperform magitech systems.
Spoiler for Rare Reference:
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Panting only makes anime characters stronger.
That's for girls. For boys it is being beaten half to death

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Good catch. Though since Hayate's communications were down I don't know how she would have given authorization. Plothole either way.
I think that accidentally or purposefully, this was one of the best decisions Hayate made. IMO, she probably already gave all her subordinates a blank check to release their limiters as necessary. If, if only they took more advantage of this!

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I was assuming the numbers have to double team Fate and Nanoha, because that's the only way they've gotten anywhere against them so far. I don't see how you can argue that four 1v1s would end in anything but crushing defeat for the numbers.
I agree with the latter. That's why I'm not going to let them do that. Not if I was directing the effort anyway.

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4v4 is more difficult to predict since the numbers are specialists and you'd expect group combat to help make up for their deficiencies as such, but I don't think it's going to make that big a difference. It isn't like Nanoha/Fate and Signum/Vita aren't used to fighting together and covering each other. And Nanoha and Vita are tactics instructors. They aren't total rubes.
Tactics instructors in the TASB. Right. I'd be back in an hour after I finish laughing at this oxymoron...

Actually, forcing a 4 on 4 makes it much more challenging for the aces. As a rule, our aces like individual combat. If they gang up on a target, it is probably because there's only one. There is substantial historical evidence for this.
Spoiler for Historical Examples:
One side clearly has teamwork. The other side is almost pathologically against it (their idea of teamwork is with their Device). Hmm... maybe enough to compensate for individual inferiority?

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1) I don't see how finishing off a pair of support casters who were so beat-up they could barely stand is supposed to make them a match for Nanoha.

2) It's still canon that raystorm and twinblades are inferior to wingblades and boomerangs as aerial combatants.
I entirely agree they are inferior. That's why I'm not sending them against Nanoha alone.

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Boomerangs' shot definitely looks to be the most powerful non-IS attack we've seen out of a number, but it still didn't look like it was any more powerful than, say, plasma lancer to me. The numbers are specialists to a fault, even moreso than the Knights, and the only one who can carry their weight in a long-range aerial confrontation is raystorm.
It is, however, powerful enough to suppress and force them to defend. That buys them the time needed to close, or maybe they were closer in to begin with.

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Which is where Shamal's superiority to Long Arch as AWACS comes in.
When was this superiority demonstrated. IIRC, in Ep7, they detected the drones at about the same time (remember Shamal is a h*ll of a lot closer than RF6 HQ) and neither detected Lutecia until she powered up. As for Zest, he never existed as far as they can tell.

And if she was so superior, why wasn't she helping to sort out the decoys from the real thing in Ep11? Vivio is sleeping quite peacefully on the helicopter, and there isn't a whole lot of equipment on the helo so even if Vivio started going into cardiac arrest or whatever, she won't be able to do much. (I'm not going to say "Why did you not just teleport her back and be done with it..." again)

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The entire point of your scenario is that the numbers are trying to outmaneuver Hayate's squad to score an easy kill on Hayate. I can't imagine a situation where Signum would be any more likely to go for the bow. "Decided we'd throw away even our honor to protect our master," remember?
You are assuming that Signum will figure out immediately what the Numbers are set up to do. If she is so cognizant of this threat, she would have been the first to say "Aruji Hayate, I must most strongly recommend you get some combat training. We do our best but we cannot always be with you..." Most likely, she'd think it is a conventional engagement and start off with her usual style. By the time she realizes they are headed for Hayate, it will be too late.

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Also as far as I'm concerned that Signum/Zest battle never happened. Ever. She never caught up with him.
Stop denying things that are against you. At least rationalize them
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Old 2007-09-03, 08:03   Link #82
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Guppy View Post
Do we necessarily know that the limiter would cause Fate to be detected at a lower ranking? She is an S+, presumably with power reserves to match - do we know that whatever detection method is being used would trigger on Fate's limiter-reduced power output rather than her actual inherent magic level?

(If it does, then it seems to me that a self-releasable limiter would be remarkably useful as a covert-ops stealth tool.)
Considering that Zest didn't register her until she powered up, it sounds like Zest is using passive detection, and cannot accurately evaluate the real abilities of a target.

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The Numbers' own sensing abilities seem to be rather variable.
Spoiler for ep. 23:
The Numbers have better optics (including by Ep21 the first Optical CCM capability). What I think they lack is a "irradiation warning receiver" (sakki detector) against magic attacks, probably because they don't use magic. That would explain why Vita and Fate know to turn just before the blast and the Numbers don't.

Nevertheless, overall good optics are probably more useful because the primary mode of acquisition still seems to be visual.
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Old 2007-09-03, 09:58   Link #83
Guppy
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Considering that Zest didn't register her until she powered up, it sounds like Zest is using passive detection, and cannot accurately evaluate the real abilities of a target.
I'm not quite as sure of that. It might simply be the case that Nanoha and Fate didn't stand out magically until they got into the air and away from the AMFs and ground clutter. The immediate vicinity of TSAB Headquarters could reasonably be expected to be an extremely magically active area.

Besides, if I understood Zest correctly, what he actually said was that the Over-S mages had started to move. It's also possible that he might have picked them up earlier, but assumed they were pinned in the building like Hayate and not reclassified them as threats until they were clearly airborne and coming after his side.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The Numbers have better optics (including by Ep21 the first Optical CCM capability). What I think they lack is a "irradiation warning receiver" (sakki detector) against magic attacks, probably because they don't use magic. That would explain why Vita and Fate know to turn just before the blast and the Numbers don't.
I'd expect both a Number and a capable mage to properly ID a Silhouette, given time - the Numbers using thermal signatures where mages would read the magical signature. Nobody appears able to pull it off in a split-second situation, where a glimpse is all you get.

(I wonder if that's why the Aces don't seem interested in using Silhouettes? The more magical power you've got, the harder it'd be to produce a good decoy - how do you convince observers that your Silhouette is Rank SS?)

The Numbers' lack of magical sensitivity would certainly make sense of their failure to dodge Teana's fire. One wonders if proper training would help there - Subaru and Ginga can certainly both do it. Of course, the Nakajima sisters inherited a capable mage's DNA; who knows what genetic base the others came from?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Nevertheless, overall good optics are probably more useful because the primary mode of acquisition still seems to be visual.
That may be so, but the Numbers' really good optical features seem to take too much time to use for my liking; in a fast-paced battle, they don't appear any better at seeing through smoke or illusions than regular people.

Last edited by Guppy; 2007-09-03 at 10:15.
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Old 2007-09-03, 10:15   Link #84
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Guppy View Post
In any case, purely passive detection ought to make it difficult to distinguish between a weak nearby magic emitter and a strong but distant one. (One of the things I remember best from reading a former F-102 interceptor pilot's recollections was the comment that relying on passive IR ranging was an excellent way to find yourself ramming your target by mistake.)
There are, in theory, ways to determine range passively (not including obvious ones like triangulation), such as wave curvature analysis. But Zest is really helped here by the terrain, which is roughly like this:

T
o .(Zest)
w
e
r__________(Ground)

You can estimate likely range just by reading the depression angle of the target.

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I get the impression that both a Number and a good mage could properly ID a Silhouette, given time - the Numbers using thermal signatures where mages would read the magical signature. Nobody appears able to do it in a fast-paced situation, where a glimpse is all you get.
I've yet to see a mage discriminate between the real thing and the fake thing.
Spoiler for Ep23:


To be fair, it is also clear that thermal imaging (or whatever imaging that was) is not particularly effective either against decent illusions.

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The Numbers' lack of magical sensitivity would certainly make sense of their failure to dodge Teana's fire. One wonders if proper training would help there - Subaru and Ginga can certainly both do it. Of course, the Nakajima sisters inherited a capable mage's DNA; who knows what genetic base the others came from?
The difference is that the Nakajima sisters are mages (jinzoumadoushi) as well as sentoukijin. The others are just Numbers.

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That may be so, but the Numbers' really good optical features seem to take too much time to use for my liking; in a fast-paced battle, they don't appear any better at seeing through smoke or illusions than regular people.
They use thermal sighting, so they should be able to penetrate more smoke than ordinary people.

I suspect what Novu in Ep21 was using is a concealed active narrowbeam near-IR interrogator (doubling as a laser rangefinder, or maybe it was the rangefinder all along, being brought to play in a new purpose?) in his eye. He's flashing each Teana in turn - the one that bounces is the real Teana. It works, but it takes time - so often it is about as quick just to shoot and see what cries out.
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Old 2007-09-03, 10:39   Link #85
Guppy
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
There are, in theory, ways to determine range passively (not including obvious ones like triangulation), such as wave curvature analysis. But Zest is really helped here by the terrain, which is roughly like this:

T
o .(Zest)
w
e
r__________(Ground)

You can estimate likely range just by reading the depression angle of the target.
True, but Zest still has to have a good idea of what range and contact strength corresponds to what power level before he could make an accurate classification. Maybe he carries the tables in his head, but it seems like a lot of effort if the method isn't reliable in the first place.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I've yet to see a mage discriminate between the real thing and the fake thing.
Spoiler for Ep23:
Spoiler for ep. 23:
Nanoha did seem to make a judgement call about whether a particular Subaru was real or fake during one of the mock battles earlier, but it's true she might have been just guessing.

The reason I said that was because, if a mage is capable of detecting another's power signature, then I don't see how a Silhouette could appear to have as much magical power as its caster in the face of a decent scan. (Of course, that scan might well take too long in the midst of combat.)

In the end, I think you're right - whether you're a Sentou Kijin or a mage, reconnaissance by fire works just as quickly and well as any other identification method.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The difference is that the Nakajima sisters are mages (jinzoumadoushi) as well as sentoukijin. The others are just Numbers.
Yes, of course. The question was whether the others could be trained, if not to elite mage standard, at least well enough for early-warning purposes. Knowing when to block or duck a rear attack would be a rather useful addition to the skillset, after all.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
They use thermal sighting, so they should be able to penetrate more smoke than ordinary people.
They don't seem really good at it, though - when Teana created a Silhouette to burst out of the smoke of an attack, it fooled Wendi who was on overwatch the whole time.

Last edited by Guppy; 2007-09-03 at 10:50.
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Old 2007-09-03, 10:56   Link #86
selkirk
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Originally Posted by Guppy View Post
Yes, of course. The question was whether the others could be trained, if not to elite mage standard, at least well enough for early-warning purposes. Knowing when to block or duck a rear attack would be a rather useful addition to the skillset, after all.
Nope, training won't help. According to the A's booklet (魔法の資質), without a Linker Core, you can't use or even react to magic (I assume they used "react" here meaning something like "sense", since it sure looks like non-mages can still get hit by magic attacks). Linker Cores are also supposed to grow spontaneously, and don't depend on heredity or lineage.
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Old 2007-09-03, 11:08   Link #87
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Guppy View Post
True, but Zest still has to have a good idea of what range and contact strength corresponds to what power level before he could make an accurate classification. Maybe he carries the tables in his head, but it seems like a lot of effort if the method isn't reliable in the first place.
He is, on the other hand, a real vet, far more so than our heroines. He probably internalized the algorithm within him through long decades of practice to this day. This will also explain why we don't see a lot of others, even Nanoha and Fate, doing what he does.

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The reason I said that was because, if a mage is capable of detecting another's power signature, then I don't see how a Silhouette could be made to appear as Rank SS to a decent scan. (Of course, that scan might well take too long in the midst of combat.)
I think you have just bumped into the reason why Illusion Magic is so rare. You need a reasonable amount of power and even more skill just to cast a reasonable facisimile of yourself. That means a high-ranking mage normally. But a high-ranking mage is too powerful to easily emulate unless he burns off a lot of energy in his illusion so it glows magically like his real power. So it is not too tactically useful for them.

Only a person with a disbalance between power and skill can possibly have the mix of motivation and ability to use Illusion Magic - and that's Teana. The Illusion will have approximately the correct amount of energy to represent the mage without reinforcement, so it looks fairly convincing on the magical front too.

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In the end, I think you're right - whether you're a Sentou Kijin or a mage, reconnaissance by fire works just as quickly and well as any other identification method.
The sentoukijin also seem to have energy to spare in this scenario, so recce by fire is fine. If they had less reserves of energy, OCCM or at the very least a more subtle recce-by-tracer (use low powered rounds) would be appropriate.

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Yes, of course. The question was whether the others could be trained, if not to elite mage standard, at least well enough for early-warning purposes. Knowing when to block or duck a rear attack would be a rather useful addition to the skillset, after all.
Considering that Illumination Warning is about as good as most mages seem to get unless they prepare, I hold little hope of the magicless Numbers being to do so. I'd bet on using an alternate warning system, such as acoustics or heat detection sensors on their rear.
Spoiler for Ep23:


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They don't seem really good at it, though - when Teana created a Silhouette to burst out of the smoke of an attack, it fooled Wendi who was on overwatch the whole time.
They can penetrate smoke. But Teana is good enough for a two band emulation - visual and far-IR, so Wendi would have to use the interrogator, and fast. With only one target, she probably didn't even bother to interrogate - she had no other target in sight, so why not take the shot.
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Old 2007-09-03, 18:24   Link #88
Frankenstein's Clare
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
And I'm disputing that in the magitech world Midchildra, there is much difference.
Again, show is predicated on the human element being significant. Magitech exists in support of the actual magic, not to replace it.

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One word: Arcenciel. A Magitech system that can outperform mages. QED.
Arcenciel is a useless weapon unless you hate the planet your target is on or it's nice enough to come out into orbit for you. Or, say, you have... hmmm... mages to subdue it, lock onto it, and teleport it there (and again notice that those last two functions were handled by Shamal, Arf, and Yuuno, support mages... not the magitech systems on the Arthra. Maybe they couldn't keep up?).

All arcenciel proves is that a very large magitech system can generate more raw power than a mage. An area-effect weapon-of-last-resort is about the only application in which raw output energy equates directly with performance, and there's obviously a minimum-scale efficiency issue going on for them to only use the technology on kilometer-long warships.

I don't know how I can put this more simply- the entire show revolves around mages in superheroic roles who are merely supported by mageless technology. It's the status quo. If a tech with a roomfull of scanner can outperform Shamal with Klarer Wind just because it's larger and more specialized why stop at replacing the support mages? The combat mages should be even easier, they're just weapons. A drone can be a thousand times the size of RH, so of course it'll be more powerful! Dedicated thrusters and inertics, layers of shields, heavy beam weaponry! No toting around those useless squishy organs, no emotional attachment to your enemy's flagship's power source! If the technology is there, why the hell is the TSA employing mages when it could be spending their paychecks on more techs and an automated army?

Because the technology isn't there, because that would make for a damn boring show. If you think the Nanoha writers are bad at tactics, think how bad they'd be trying to write the political or social plot you'd be left with once all the fighting is taken care of by robots. Jail wouldn't be around; the tech would have already left him behind.

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I think that accidentally or purposefully, this was one of the best decisions Hayate made. IMO, she probably already gave all her subordinates a blank check to release their limiters as necessary. If, if only they took more advantage of this!
I'm pretty sure that when Chrono did it he had to key a little thing like with arcenciel. You can't just 'give them a blank check.' It's a plothole.

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Tactics instructors in the TASB. Right. I'd be back in an hour after I finish laughing at this oxymoron...
This is one of those areas where I take the writers' words for it and then ignore all the evidence to the contrary. It does wonders for my ability to still respect the characters.

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Actually, forcing a 4 on 4 makes it much more challenging for the aces. As a rule, our aces like individual combat. If they gang up on a target, it is probably because there's only one. There is substantial historical evidence for this.
Spoiler for Historical Examples:
Three points on A's:

They hadn't undergone much tactical instruction at this point.

Fate and Nanoha had the secondary (if not primary) goal of building rapport with their enemies. You kind of lose that moral high ground when you double-team people. Chrono and Yuuno didn't like the way they broke it up into duels in 4 either, but they were running their own show.

D-program fight: Well, at least Shamal was coordinating it. That's better than they usually do.

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StrikerS Ep5: Nanoha and Fat split up the aerial drones between them, but I don't think they were really cooperating, just allocating. There's a distinction.
But in this context allocation makes sense. They're overwhelmingly superior to the drones; assigning sectors allows them to avoid wasting effort on the same targets and keeps them out of each other's lines of fire.

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Ep7: Vita, Signum and Zafira break up into three.
Again, they're overwhelmingly superior to their targets. Sticking together would just slow them down. Though episode 7 tactics were stupid for other reasons that have been well-described in this thread.

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Ep9: OK, I'd admit that they might have cooperated that time.
And who says miracles don't happen?

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Ep11: The two heroines attack the same cluster of aerial drones, and come together because they are suppressed. What are their thoughts? Cooperate? Of course not. Let's split up!
Because one of them could deal with the situation and there was a pressing need elsewhere.

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Ep12: Again, I'm sure they are cooperating at all only because there is one target (OK, there are technically two, but since Illusionist is lifting Gunner, they are effectively one).
They herded them into that pincer pretty neatly though.

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Ep17: Again, they split up, and split up their ground units as well.
Sorry, I'm still stuck at the part where they surrended their weapons.

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Ep21: At least Nanoha and Vita were in a pair, but what happens when they get into trouble? (You might also note that Vita was killing herself taking on the drones by herself rather than the two of them cooperating and taking the load off each other) They SPLIT UP! (Whatever the f*ck happened to protecting Nanoha...) Fate and Schach. Split up. Signum. Alone. One side clearly has teamwork. The other side is almost pathologically against it (their idea of teamwork is with their Device). Hmm... maybe enough to compensate for individual inferiority?
Because the writers conveniently assigned them one distant critical objective per team member. They can't help it if the circumstances always demand dramatic individual action.

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When was this superiority demonstrated. IIRC, in Ep7, they detected the drones at about the same time (remember Shamal is a h*ll of a lot closer than RF6 HQ) and neither detected Lutecia until she powered up. As for Zest, he never existed as far as they can tell.
Call me crazy, but I suspect that RF6 HQ is integrating scanning data from a lot of sources, not trying to cover the whole hemisphere with one scanner in the actual HQ. That'd be pretty impractical. And again, I presuppose the superiority of mage-device pairs on the grounds that they wouldn't use them if a drone with a sensor package feeding data back to a supercomputer somewhere was superior. In the actual series the only evidence I've seen is that Shamal did the teleport lock on the D-program core instead of the Arthra as already mentioned.

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And if she was so superior, why wasn't she helping to sort out the decoys from the real thing in Ep11? Vivio is sleeping quite peacefully on the helicopter, and there isn't a whole lot of equipment on the helo so even if Vivio started going into cardiac arrest or whatever, she won't be able to do much. (I'm not going to say "Why did you not just teleport her back and be done with it..." again)
Union regs. All helicopter pilots must make at least one flight a week with at least two passengers both ways. Trust me, you do not want to mess with Transport Workers of Midchilda.

And as long as we're arguing about device capabilities, I'm pretty sure Shamal could stop a heart attack with her rings. Healing specialist and all that.

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You are assuming that Signum will figure out immediately what the Numbers are set up to do. If she is so cognizant of this threat, she would have been the first to say "Aruji Hayate, I must most strongly recommend you get some combat training. We do our best but we cannot always be with you..." Most likely, she'd think it is a conventional engagement and start off with her usual style. By the time she realizes they are headed for Hayate, it will be too late.
Hayate is cognizant of her own limitations; why wouldn't Signum, captain of her bodyguard and a warrior with about- and this is a rough figure here- a billion times her experience be? Signum is dedicated to protecting Hayate, so she sticks with her in a group fight, and when the enemy are still at a distance she attacks at a distance. I don't think this is out of character for her.

Signum may like a one-on-one duel but the D-program smackdown showed she's more than willing to join a firing line when it's necessary.

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Stop denying things that are against you. At least rationalize them
That battle- or rather, non-event- was a travesty. This has nothing to do with this petty argument, and everything to do with me hating the writing team for slightly different reasons than you.
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Old 2007-09-03, 20:39   Link #89
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Frankenstein's Clare View Post
Again, show is predicated on the human element being significant. Magitech exists in support of the actual magic, not to replace it.
Yes, but it is still a world where magitech is dominant much more than the norm.

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Arcenciel is a useless weapon unless you hate the planet your target is on or it's nice enough to come out into orbit for you.
But it has power. You just want something that outperforms mages consistently. There you go.

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Or, say, you have... hmmm... mages to subdue it, lock onto it, and teleport it there (and again notice that those last two functions were handled by Shamal, Arf, and Yuuno, support mages... not the magitech systems on the Arthra. Maybe they couldn't keep up?).
Or maybe they aren't flexible enough. I suspect the transport systems on Asura must have themselves as either the To or the From. It'd be bad to transport the BoD into the Asura, even briefly, if it'd even fit in the teleporter room.

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and there's obviously a minimum-scale efficiency issue going on for them to only use the technology on kilometer-long warships.
How big is Asura anyway?

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I don't know how I can put this more simply- the entire show revolves around mages in superheroic roles who are merely supported by mageless technology. It's the status quo. If a tech with a roomfull of scanner can outperform Shamal with Klarer Wind just because it's larger and more specialized why stop at replacing the support mages? The combat mages should be even easier, they're just weapons.
I think the main thing the show is trying to portray is that the flexibility of humans is still useful, even in the world of magitech, not that they are better than huge machines in their single roles.

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A drone can be a thousand times the size of RH, so of course it'll be more powerful! Dedicated thrusters and inertics, layers of shields, heavy beam weaponry! No toting around those useless squishy organs, no emotional attachment to your enemy's flagship's power source! If the technology is there, why the hell is the TSA employing mages when it could be spending their paychecks on more techs and an automated army?
I think the two things magitech hadn't been able to do so far is build small (human-sized) Linker Cores of equivalent power density and flexibility. The sentoukijin, however, suggest that even this is starting to come to an end. They are really not anamolies, but a trend of the times that the TSAB has been trying to delay in accordance to some warped ethics.

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I'm pretty sure that when Chrono did it he had to key a little thing like with arcenciel. You can't just 'give them a blank check.' It's a plothole.
That was Hayate's limiters, which seem to be trickier to remove than the others. A sign of how little many people trust Hayate?

Chrono is also a "by-the-book" guy, so he's going to handle the limiters like the regs say - only when necessary, with explicit consent for each case. Hayate is a people person, so she hands down the authorizations.

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Three points on A's:

They hadn't undergone much tactical instruction at this point.
True, but this shows what their instincts are like.

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Fate and Nanoha had the secondary (if not primary) goal of building rapport with their enemies. You kind of lose that moral high ground when you double-team people. Chrono and Yuuno didn't like the way they broke it up into duels in 4 either, but they were running their own show.
They agreed to it so fast they were barely disagreeing. Chrono kind of likes one to ones as well.

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D-program fight: Well, at least Shamal was coordinating it. That's better than they usually do.
She was telling them to take turns. That's some advanced coordination!

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Because the writers conveniently assigned them one distant critical objective per team member. They can't help it if the circumstances always demand dramatic individual action.
I'm not saying that sometimes, splitting up isn't a good or at least adequate decision. However, when you notice that they split up almost all the time, whether it is good or bad for them to do so, it is hard to avoid the simple conclusion that they like splitting up and they are more used to splitting up than cooperating.

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Call me crazy, but I suspect that RF6 HQ is integrating scanning data from a lot of sources, not trying to cover the whole hemisphere with one scanner in the actual HQ. That'd be pretty impractical.
I'd agree that's what they are doing, but it would seem that Shamal is still the closest sensing unit we know of. Sensor coverage is sparse in that area - you would note they don't get the visuals they normally do, only blips. (I don't even want to think of how they actually achieve the anime troupe of showing targets at perfect angles on the viewscreen).

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And again, I presuppose the superiority of mage-device pairs on the grounds that they wouldn't use them if a drone with a sensor package feeding data back to a supercomputer somewhere was superior. In the actual series the only evidence I've seen is that Shamal did the teleport lock on the D-program core instead of the Arthra as already mentioned.
That's because she could and she was so much closer. Why try for complicated and unpracticed GCI when autonomous acquisition is available? Unlike Hayate, Shamal is not used to working under GCI.

Anyway, your logic can be turned on its head. If mobile mages were superior in this, they won't be building expensive supercomputers and relying on static sensor nets.

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And as long as we're arguing about device capabilities, I'm pretty sure Shamal could stop a heart attack with her rings. Healing specialist and all that.
The abilities of healing magic are finite. Shamal definitely did not make Nanoha good as new after that little accident she had when she was 12.

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Hayate is cognizant of her own limitations; why wouldn't Signum, captain of her bodyguard and a warrior with about- and this is a rough figure here- a billion times her experience be? Signum is dedicated to protecting Hayate, so she sticks with her in a group fight, and when the enemy are still at a distance she attacks at a distance. I don't think this is out of character for her.
The problem is that they are cognizant of the limitation, but no one is cognizant of the danger. There's a big difference.

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That battle- or rather, non-event- was a travesty. This has nothing to do with this petty argument, and everything to do with me hating the writing team for slightly different reasons than you.
I agree it was pretty lame. When they did the Hiryu Issen I was thinking of morning exercise programs! But it was canon. Accept it.
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Old 2007-09-03, 21:50   Link #90
Frankenstein's Clare
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Yes, but it is still a world where magitech is dominant much more than the norm.
Of course. But a talented mage with magitech augmentation outperforms magitech alone.

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But it has power. You just want something that outperforms mages consistently. There you go.
No, I want magitech in general to not consistently outperform mages. Because then it would replace them. And there would be no show.

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Or maybe they aren't flexible enough. I suspect the transport systems on Asura must have themselves as either the To or the From. It'd be bad to transport the BoD into the Asura, even briefly, if it'd even fit in the teleporter room.
And see, that's the sort of thing that makes it balanced. You can teleport without a mage, but only with a massive power source, a lot of computing power, and limitations on the system that still leave mages plenty of room to shine. You get your cool gadgets and your dashing heroines.

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How big is Asura anyway?
Could probably try to get an approximate size for the Defense Program monster, compare that to the arcenciel projectile, and then compare the arcenciel projectile to the Arthra. You know, assuming the artists cared enough to try for that kind of consistency when they drew that scene.

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I think the main thing the show is trying to portray is that the flexibility of humans is still useful, even in the world of magitech, not that they are better than huge machines in their single roles.

I think the two things magitech hadn't been able to do so far is build small (human-sized) Linker Cores of equivalent power density and flexibility. The sentoukijin, however, suggest that even this is starting to come to an end. They are really not anamolies, but a trend of the times that the TSAB has been trying to delay in accordance to some warped ethics.
See, I tend to see the combat cyborgs as representative of the limits of magitech. Scaglietti is trying to create a completely automated army, but plain magitech just can't match good mages so he ends up essentially just building mages with the cyborgs, who share in the advantages and disadvantages of both mages and pure magitech.

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They agreed to it so fast they were barely disagreeing. Chrono kind of likes one to ones as well.
Well look at it from Chrono's point of view. He thinks that all he has to do is let them play around and he gets to nab the BoD's master and put an end to the whole thing right there, regardless of how the battle goes.

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She was telling them to take turns. That's some advanced coordination!
Yeah yeah it's no Tagar.

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I'm not saying that sometimes, splitting up isn't a good or at least adequate decision. However, when you notice that they split up almost all the time, whether it is good or bad for them to do so, it is hard to avoid the simple conclusion that they like splitting up and they are more used to splitting up than cooperating.
Yes, even from my point of view having to write an individual excuse for virtually every combat scene in the show seems like just a different way of proving your point.

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I'd agree that's what they are doing, but it would seem that Shamal is still the closest sensing unit we know of. Sensor coverage is sparse in that area - you would note they don't get the visuals they normally do, only blips. (I don't even want to think of how they actually achieve the anime troupe of showing targets at perfect angles on the viewscreen).
Magic. Come on, scrying has been part of fantasy forever, pools and mirrors and crystal balls and all that jazz. It's even in Yuuno's name. System's probably just a cheap visual-only magitech knockoff of Shamal's portal, no telegroping function or intensive scan or anything.

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Anyway, your logic can be turned on its head. If mobile mages were superior in this, they won't be building expensive supercomputers and relying on static sensor nets.
The sensor net has obvious advantages; it can be on 24/7, not just during a mission (so you get those ALARTs) and can be operated by people with no magical ability. It'd be impractical to try to handle all functions with mages; there just isn't enough talent to go around (look how stretched the mages-only infantry of their military are by one guy with his own manufacturing infrastructure). But in spite of these advantages they continue to train support mages in scanning techniques. I choose to believe this is because they either exceed or complement the mageless technology, with exceed being more likely in the cases of very talented support mages like Shamal.

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The abilities of healing magic are finite. Shamal definitely did not make Nanoha good as new after that little accident she had when she was 12.
Those magic-related chronic health problems are tricky; she couldn't heal the damage the Book was inflicting on Hayate either. But closing wounds while rejuvenating (rather than tiring) the patient is still pretty impressive. A lot more impressive than getting someone's heart to do what it's meant to do in the first place, something we still achieve by the none-to-subtle method of running current through it (and before the pacemaker lobby comes down on me: okay, we're pretty subtle about it. But it's still current).

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I agree it was pretty lame. When they did the Hiryu Issen I was thinking of morning exercise programs! But it was canon. Accept it.
No. The scene was interpretive. Interpretive. It was actually a totally badass fight, but they represented it. With colorful dance.

I mean come on. You can't ask me to accept that hiryu issen can counter plasma smasher when Signum's just playing around, but while she's dead serious AND unisoned with Rein it can be blown away by a floor fan. Just typing that made me angry. I'm dropping this subject.
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Old 2007-09-07, 16:09   Link #91
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Crap how did I miss this until now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankenstein's Clare
Of course. But a talented mage with magitech augmentation outperforms magitech alone.
Talented mages are clearly very rare though. Think crossbows vs. Longbow, sure the longbow is superior in a number of ways, but any half starved peasant with a few days training can fire the crossbow and kill the knight or bowmen that’s spent has his life training.

Even if the Mage/magitech combo is superior (arguable) the sheer mass that one could unleash with the later could easily counter that advantage IMO.

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No, I want magitech in general to not consistently outperform mages. Because then it would replace them. And there would be no show.
Expect it clearly already dose, in terms of maximum raw power among other things. What you want has nothing to do with it since we already have clear examples that what you want simply isn’t the case. It also wouldn't totally kill the show, the show might be different (the mages wouldn't be the be all end all superheroes they are for example), but it wouldn't kill it.


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And see, that's the sort of thing that makes it balanced. You can teleport without a mage, but only with a massive power source, a lot of computing power, and limitations on the system that still leave mages plenty of room to shine. You get your cool gadgets and your dashing heroines.
Expect I don’t think that’s the case, at least the site to site bit, I seem to recall them just beaming people to the surface at least once. Then again teleporting in general is often a huge cop-out used unevenly and inconsistently and often as a weak plot device, I acutally like that it’s being deemphasized lately. Introducing teleporters on to human ships in SG-1 for instance was IMO a mistake, as all it did was force them to find ways to make them fail constantly so you had an actual element of danger for the main characters when a ship was around.

Letting mages just snap their fingers and teleport around at will would be even worse as no battle would ever be really tense as the second it looked like they might lose they could just teleport away.

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See, I tend to see the combat cyborgs as representative of the limits of magitech. Scaglietti is trying to create a completely automated army, but plain magitech just can't match good mages so he ends up essentially just building mages with the cyborgs, who share in the advantages and disadvantages of both mages and pure magitech.
The Cyborgs aren’t really mages to me and even if you want argue about it the fact is they can basiclly be built to order and pop out as almost equal in power to the best mages the TSAB has to offer should tell you something. That’s a pretty huge advantage and if you dedicated real resources to mass production of the cyborg or something like them human Mages wouldn’t stand a chance. I also don’t consider the cyborgs being adopted purely as a result of any magitech limitations, there are things that an 8 foot tall walking knife draw simply can’t do.

Also no offense but the design of allot of the drones sucked. If the Type-2 for instance had been built for pure speed and long range BVR combat they could have done ALLOT more damage. Mages in flight are not that fast (>always mach 1 IMO) aircraft could easily out fly and out climb them (they wind wiping their clothes indicates they probably simply breath oxygen from the air which would limit them to 10 to 15,000 feet tops). Instead for some bizarre reason all the drones weapons seem to be limited short range within visual systems that forces them to get close to enemy mages.

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Magic. Come on, scrying has been part of fantasy forever, pools and mirrors and crystal balls and all that jazz. It's even in Yuuno's name. System's probably just a cheap visual-only magitech knockoff of Shamal's portal, no telegroping function or intensive scan or anything.
Yeah I mean just because we don’t see it being done doesn’t mean we shouldn’t instantly assume it’s widely used and extremely powerful compared to normal sensors… Leap of logic anyone?

Quote:
The sensor net has obvious advantages; it can be on 24/7, not just during a mission (so you get those ALARTs) and can be operated by people with no magical ability. It'd be impractical to try to handle all functions with mages; there just isn't enough talent to go around (look how stretched the mages-only infantry of their military are by one guy with his own manufacturing infrastructure). But in spite of these advantages they continue to train support mages in scanning techniques. I choose to believe this is because they either exceed or complement the mageless technology, with exceed being more likely in the cases of very talented support mages like Shamal.
So the sensor net IS superior as you just listed at least two reason it kicks a mages asses. I myself chose to believe the later is trained because sometimes you might need to function you know OUTSIDE the sensor net… in which case yeah a mage is superior, but only via lack of competition.

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Those magic-related chronic health problems are tricky; she couldn't heal the damage the Book was inflicting on Hayate either. But closing wounds while rejuvenating (rather than tiring) the patient is still pretty impressive. A lot more impressive than getting someone's heart to do what it's meant to do in the first place, something we still achieve by the none-to-subtle method of running current through it (and before the pacemaker lobby comes down on me: okay, we're pretty subtle about it. But it's still current).
Closing a simple wound is nothing a pressure bandage couldn’t do, or better yet a pressure bandage with a modern artificial clotting agent. Healing magic is clearly ineffectual against truly significant trauma as shown repeatedly. I don’t count being stabbed with a knife arm as “magic-related” damage, and yet they still didn’t think Nanoha would even be able to walk and she appears to have been forced to undertake a brutal and decidedly 20th century physical therapy program to do so… I doubt Shamal could do much more then a modern medic with even a simple gunshot wound which could easily pierce and damage multi organs or cause death by blood loss within minutes.

Plus modern medicine is getting creepy and hurtling rapidly toward the realm of science “fiction”.Give it 30 years and we might all re-growing arms after popping a few pills, there is no reason beside pointless squeamishness a society as advanced as the TSAB in many areas couldn’t have medical tech WAY more effective then anything magic has ever shown.
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Old 2007-09-07, 18:54   Link #92
Mirificus
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Now that episode 20 is subbed, I was taking another look at RF6's and Jail's deployments.

RF6 has encountered eleven of the combat cyborgs so far. Five of them were spotted in the abandoned city. They're attacking the Ground Force HQ but are only moving as fast as Ginga can skate. If the combat cyborgs have been named consecutively (which may not necessarily be true) then six of them are unaccounted for.

RF6 has also spotted Zest and Agito heading towards the Ground Force HQ but is unaware that Lutecia is also moving through the abandoned city.

I'm still not convinced that sending the forwards to the abandoned city was the best idea. With their relatively slow movement rate, the numbers moving through the abandoned city are probably the last enemy force that needs to be dealt with. With the way Fate split off there, it appeared as though Jail's lab is somewhere in between where the Aces deployed and the Cradle.

I kind of threw together the start of an operations order for episode 20-21 to see what it would look like.

Quote:
Riot Force 6
CAPITAL CITY, MIDCHILDA

Operations Order

Time Zone Used Throughout the Order: Local

I've given up trying to give an accurate task organization as the command relationships, attachments and actual organization are so unclear.

Task Organization:

Spoiler for Task Organization:


1. SITUATION:

a. Enemy Forces and Battlefield Conditions.

(1) Weather and light data.
Unavailable.

(2) Enemy Forces

Spoiler for Enemy Forces:
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Old 2007-09-07, 20:09   Link #93
arkhangelsk
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Using an order format meant for battalions for that squad sized combat force is your first mistake. By the way, it is clearly sunny, the visibility is at least fair, and it is daytime, and I think the battle will be over either way before dusk.

By the way, wouldn't "Battalion Troops" be Hayate rather than Signum?
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Old 2007-09-07, 20:59   Link #94
Mirificus
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Using an order format meant for battalions for that squad sized combat force is your first mistake.
The problem though is that they aren't being given squad-sized tasks. Squads aren't supposed to be used alone. At the very least, they would normally have their neighboring squads to act in concert with since they aren't meant to be a tactically viable subunit. RF6 on the other hand is being used in three separate locations at once that are far enough apart that they won't be able to provide any mutual support.

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By the way, it is clearly sunny, the visibility is at least fair, and it is daytime, and I think the battle will be over either way before dusk.
Right. That should be straightforward.

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By the way, wouldn't "Battalion Troops" be Hayate rather than Signum?
I guess I was thinking more about how they were actually employed. Otherwise, I would keep the Forwards together and at least two of the Aces together. Breaking them down as Stars/Lightning/Long Arch makes the least sense.

I got a really bad headache when I was rewriting it so it turned out rather sketchy.
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Old 2007-09-07, 22:21   Link #95
Frankenstein's Clare
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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Yeah I mean just because we don’t see it being done doesn’t mean we shouldn’t instantly assume it’s widely used and extremely powerful compared to normal sensors… Leap of logic anyone?
We were talking about a capability of the normal sensors we see all the time.

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The Cyborgs aren’t really mages to me and even if you want argue about it the fact is they can basiclly be built to order and pop out as almost equal in power to the best mages the TSAB has to offer should tell you something. That’s a pretty huge advantage and if you dedicated real resources to mass production of the cyborg or something like them human Mages wouldn’t stand a chance. I also don’t consider the cyborgs being adopted purely as a result of any magitech limitations, there are things that an 8 foot tall walking knife draw simply can’t do.
I already told you what they tell me, which is that magitech is still playing catch-up. The cyborgs represent the best-attempt of Nanohaverse mad science to create machines that can equal mages... and what are they in the end? Humans who use magitech augmentation. The same as mages. You say they can be 'built to order' but the fact is that they still have that human component and need to be grown. From birth. None of them look to be any younger than Subaru which gives us... a 15-year minimum production time. Whoops. No instant army there. The quality is anything but even too. I think the most dramatic comparison would be Surfboard vs Boomerangs since they fill pretty similar midrange combat roles but are on the opposite ends of the power scale. Boomerangs did say she got a few years of extra work or whatever, but this only reinforces the point that they're resource-intensive custom jobs, unsuitable for mass-production.

And for the real kicker- they can't be built without relics! There's a lostech artifact, about as black a box as you can find- and you do have to find them- right at the center of the whole system! Yep, there are going to be armies of these things running around any day now.

And they still can't compare to the best mages. Hell, only four of them can even handle real aerial combat. And this despite the fact that they're artisan-craft products whose creation is attended to personally by Scaglietti, once-in-a-generation engineering genius and general benefactor of the "one mad scientist moves faster than an entire generation of normal scientists" trope.

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So the sensor net IS superior as you just listed at least two reason it kicks a mages asses. I myself chose to believe the later is trained because sometimes you might need to function you know OUTSIDE the sensor net… in which case yeah a mage is superior, but only via lack of competition.
Do you understand that there's a difference between one system having blanket superiority, and each have advantages that make both worth maintaining? As Ark has already pointed out by the inversion of my logic the mageless sensors must have some sort of advantage or they wouldn't bother using them. Your suggestion, though, that the only advantage on the mages' part is their ability to 'extend the net' is ridiculous- a drone could do the same thing without the years of specialized training.

Which is what my whole argument comes down to. That the TSA bothers to field mages when magitech is obviously very viable and has some definite advantages over the mages suggests there are performance benefits on the part of the mages as well. And because the advantages of the mageless systems are endurance and ease-of-use, I think it likely the mages get the power end of the spectrum. I'll admit there are other possible advantages (including the possibility of subtle distinctions we viewers just don't get enough technical info to grasp), but the harder-to-use, short-term effect being the stronger feels right.

And while the TSA obviously does have a fair degree of organizational opposition to some types of technology which it avoids, they have no problems with the magitech already in general use and there's no reason to believe it wouldn't use it to replace mages if it were feasible to do so. Which is what this argument is about. Or was about, anyway.

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Closing a simple wound is nothing a pressure bandage couldn’t do, or better yet a pressure bandage with a modern artificial clotting agent. Healing magic is clearly ineffectual against truly significant trauma as shown repeatedly. I don’t count being stabbed with a knife arm as “magic-related” damage, and yet they still didn’t think Nanoha would even be able to walk and she appears to have been forced to undertake a brutal and decidedly 20th century physical therapy program to do so… I doubt Shamal could do much more then a modern medic with even a simple gunshot wound which could easily pierce and damage multi organs or cause death by blood loss within minutes.
I can just as easily say I think she could just wave her hands and your gunshot wound would be gone. We've seen non-life-threatening wounds cured slowly (Yuuno) and instantly (Shamal), and we know magic can't handle long-term stuff, such as Hayate's progressive nerve degeneration or whatever she had and Nanoha's rehabilitation. Never seen magic applied directly to a critical injury, unless I've missed something in 20 and on.

But for the sake of clarity, yes, I had taken Nanoha's debilitation to be more a product of her chronic magic overuse than the actual drone attack, which upon review of 9 appears to be totally incorrect. Though I'm curious if it might have also been an issue based on that 'could no longer fly' line. I could see it cutting down her maneuverability and forcing her to abandon the ankle-wings, but not grounding her altogether...

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Plus modern medicine is getting creepy and hurtling rapidly toward the realm of science “fiction”.Give it 30 years and we might all re-growing arms after popping a few pills, there is no reason beside pointless squeamishness a society as advanced as the TSAB in many areas couldn’t have medical tech WAY more effective then anything magic has ever shown.
I propose: Midchildan civilization owes its most advanced technology (by which I pretty much mean 'their giant dimension-traversing warships') to the 'magi' in 'magitech,' so their technological growth is stunted in areas where magic is of lesser use than pure tech.

Makes sense, right? After the revolution they threw everything behind a single technological route that has pretty broad application, but not broad enough that they don't miss out on some stuff.

And seriously, scifi gets boring if it's too hard. If you've seen one AI-run nanotech-infused conversion-powered Kurzweilian fantasyland you've seen them all. I don't see why they can't remove from the setting something that might be feasible in reality the same way they add things that are completely fantastic (magic, the TSA in general). I think you're placing too much importance on accurate prognostication of technological development and not enough on an author's perogative to write in the setting they want. StrikerS technological tree may be too lopsided for you to easily accept, and that's fine, but recognize that any futuristic setting's will be lopsided to some degree or another. A lot of stuff we're excited about today might never pan out.

Last edited by Frankenstein's Clare; 2007-09-07 at 22:45. Reason: Snarkiness went past good fun and into possible flame bait. Apologies.
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Old 2007-09-08, 02:25   Link #96
Tk3997
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankenstein's Clare
And for the real kicker- they can't be built without relics! There's a lostech artifact, about as black a box as you can find- and you do have to find them- right at the center of the whole system! Yep, there are going to be armies of these things running around any day now.
Forget everything else where the hell is that shown exactly I don’t recall that at all, I didn’t even think anyone knew about the Relics until just before the series began.

Quote:
Do you understand that there's a difference between one system having blanket superiority, and each have advantages that make both worth maintaining? As Ark has already pointed out by the inversion of my logic the mageless sensors must have some sort of advantage or they wouldn't bother using them. Your suggestion, though, that the only advantage on the mages' part is their ability to 'extend the net' is ridiculous- a drone could do the same thing without the years of specialized training.
The same sort of drone that they seemed so stunned to encounter early in the series…

And yeah IMO a drone could do it and probably cheaper, faster, and likely better the TSAB is just too stupid and set in its ways to do so. They could absolutely learn something from how Jail operates, like magic not being the best solution to everything. If nothing else I’d hope this entire incident gets their asses to at least consider alterative methods to “MORE MAGIC!!!”
Quote:
Which is what my whole argument comes down to. That the TSAbothers to field mages when magitech is obviously very viable and has some definite advantages over the mages suggests there are performance benefits on the part of the mages as well.
Mages have high firepower and are very mobile as infantry and very little in sci-fi can touch the top teir ones, but they’re still effectively just highly mobile infantry and they can’t do everything or even allot of what they’re trying to do very well at all. Mages have their place, but not being crammed into all these roles the TSAB is trying to use them in that they just aren’t suited for.

Quote:
And because the advantages of the mageless systems are endurance and ease-of-use, I think it likely the mages get the power end of the spectrum. I'll admit there are other possible advantages (including the possibility of subtle distinctions we viewers just don't get enough technical info to grasp), but the harder-to-use, short-term effect being the stronger feels right.
I disagreed with this, not least of all because you’re probably judging this “power” off the likes of Nanoha and friends who are by all indications freakish anomalies. The average mages seems barely able to handle simple drones and if the forwards are any indication allot of them probably can’t even fly. Sure taking down the handful of super top tier guys might be somewhat tough, but you can probably pwn 99% of the them easily with magitech and a bunch of poorly trained peons.

Quote:
And while the TSA obviously does have a fair degree of organizational opposition to some types of technology which it avoids, they have no problems with the magitech already in general use and there's no reason to believe it wouldn't use it to replace mages if it were feasible to do so. Which is what this argument is about. Or was about, anyway
.
Which is why no one in the Air Force has any problems with UAVs and in fact welcomes them with open arms and fights to be assigned to them… oh wait. Basiclly the issue is this the TSAB is full of mages, if they replaces mages with Magitech the former are out of work and now WAY less important and prestigious… do the math. Would you recommend your company buy a bunch of robots that could put you out of a job for instance?


Quote:
I can just as easily say I think she could just wave her hands and your gunshot wound would be gone. We've seen non-life-threatening wounds cured slowly (Yuuno) and instantly (Shamal), and we know magic can't handle long-term stuff, such as Hayate's progressive nerve degeneration or whatever she had and Nanoha's rehabilitation. Never seen magic applied directly to a critical injury, unless I've missed something in 20 and on.

But for the sake of clarity, yes, I had taken Nanoha's debilitation to be more a product of her chronic magic overuse than the actual drone attack, which upon review of 9 appears to be totally incorrect. Though I'm curious if it might have also been an issue based on that 'could no longer fly' line. I could see it cutting down her maneuverability and forcing her to abandon the ankle-wings, but not grounding her altogether...
It seems real simple to me Nanoha got slashed up by an invisible drone and there wasn’t even magic VAUGELY involved it was a good old fashion shanking. The next scene is her lying in a hospital bed bandaged all to hell and apparently on life support…then her struggling to even get into a wheelchair. You honestly think that if magic could heal major trauma for shit that would have happened? You sure as hell wouldn’t need a hospital and life support if it could! As far as I'm concerned any argument that Nanoha-verse healing magic is good for anything besides fixing a cut while chopping vegetables went out the window with that scene, also wasn't Erio walking around with an arm in a sling for awhile after the attack on GFHQ?

Quote:
I propose: Midchildan civilization owes its most advanced technology (by which I pretty much mean 'their giant dimension-traversing warships') to the 'magi' in 'magitech,' so their technological growth is stunted in areas where magic is of lesser use than pure tech.

Makes sense, right? After the revolution they threw everything behind a single technological route that has pretty broad application, but not broad enough that they don't miss out on some stuff.

And seriously, scifi gets boring if it's too hard. If you've seen one AI-run nanotech-infused conversion-powered Kurzweilian fantasyland you've seen them all. I don't see why they can't remove from the setting something that might be feasible in reality the same way they add things that are completely fantastic (magic, the TSA in general). I think you're placing too much importance on accurate prognostication of technological development and not enough on an author's perogative to write in the setting they want. StrikerS technological tree may be too lopsided for you to easily accept, and that's fine, but recognize that any futuristic setting's will be lopsided to some degree or another. A lot of stuff we're excited about today might never pan out.
Expect that their tech base can already produce stuff like clones, cyborgs, and artificial humans. So something like growing new organs and tissue for transplant should be child’s play, so really it shouldn’t have mattered WHAT happened to Nanoha, even if she had spine damage just grow up some new cells for transplant. But I bet it’s outlawed because it might be dangerous… Wonder how many people the TSAB lets stay horribly maimed because of their “gene engineering is teh evil!!!” stance. Jail speech acutally came off to me as having some serious bite to it in this regard, sure the dudes crazy, but I think his point about oppressing science to “maintain order” might have a ring of truth too it.

So really It's not like this stuff isn't already around it's just totally unevenly or not all used to anything like it's logical potential.
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Old 2007-09-08, 04:56   Link #97
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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
It seems real simple to me Nanoha got slashed up by an invisible drone and there wasn’t even magic VAUGELY involved it was a good old fashion shanking. The next scene is her lying in a hospital bed bandaged all to hell and apparently on life support…then her struggling to even get into a wheelchair. You honestly think that if magic could heal major trauma for shit that would have happened? You sure as hell wouldn’t need a hospital and life support if it could! As far as I'm concerned any argument that Nanoha-verse healing magic is good for anything besides fixing a cut while chopping vegetables went out the window with that scene, also wasn't Erio walking around with an arm in a sling for awhile after the attack on GFHQ?
True. It actually makes sense for magic to be only marginally effective in healing heavy injuries. Generally magical healing involves speeding up your own healing, which is fine for light wounds, but how can you speed up an injury that will take months to heal to something instant.

To be fair to TSAB medicine, however, for someone who had a fracture, he sure healed fast. It wasn't instant but he was back practicing with Signum well within a week. Considering it usually takes a few days just for the bones to begin (weeks to remineralized and over a year to be back at near full strength) getting back together, it is probable that magic did work and he's just in the sling to give a bit more time to his arm to heal in peace.

I suspect Nanoha's injuries are actually not local. If it was just a spinal cut, it will affect her ability to walk but not to fly (besides, people seem to use a separate magical-powered nervous system to move while transformed - see Hayate moving around quite well as soon as she transformed). Considering what everyone said about magic, it seems likely that she had a "core accident" at around the same time of the shanking which did most of the hard to repair damage - say she detected a presence, decided to engage, but the core started to fail, the stealth droid shanks her, so she forces to core to charge and fire, and the core thus got wrecked. Or maybe she was concentrating on magic when she got shanked, and the shock was the last straw to a worn out Core. Anyway, from all the evidence, I'm betting the net damage isn't all physical.
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Old 2007-09-08, 13:05   Link #98
Tk3997
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
True. It actually makes sense for magic to be only marginally effective in healing heavy injuries. Generally magical healing involves speeding up your own healing, which is fine for light wounds, but how can you speed up an injury that will take months to heal to something instant.

To be fair to TSAB medicine, however, for someone who had a fracture, he sure healed fast. It wasn't instant but he was back practicing with Signum well within a week. Considering it usually takes a few days just for the bones to begin (weeks to remineralized and over a year to be back at near full strength) getting back together, it is probable that magic did work and he's just in the sling to give a bit more time to his arm to heal in peace.
Did it say it was acutally broken? If not I’d acutally just argue it wasn’t, otherwise it should have been set. Magic regeneration boost or not that would have sped bone knitting we set broken bones for a reason. A sling is more what you’d use for a bad strain or something. Even if it was "broken" breaks range from "little nick on the bone" to "Pointy shards jutting out of your arm." and if broken his clearly looked to be at the less severe end.

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I suspect Nanoha's injuries are actually not local. If it was just a spinal cut, it will affect her ability to walk but not to fly (besides, people seem to use a separate magical-powered nervous system to move while transformed - see Hayate moving around quite well as soon as she transformed). Considering what everyone said about magic, it seems likely that she had a "core accident" at around the same time of the shanking which did most of the hard to repair damage - say she detected a presence, decided to engage, but the core started to fail, the stealth droid shanks her, so she forces to core to charge and fire, and the core thus got wrecked. Or maybe she was concentrating on magic when she got shanked, and the shock was the last straw to a worn out Core. Anyway, from all the evidence, I'm betting the net damage isn't all physical.
I don't think we know enough about this area of magic to make that call, we do know for instance though that even things like diet can effect a mages performance, so clearly magic use has a physical element to it and if diet can be a factor major horrible bodily trauma surely could as well. Also I think you’d have issues trying to control flight with wings mounting on your ankles when you can’t feel you’re legs… So maybe she could technically have flown, but not with nearly enough control to be safe without use of her legs.

Me if I have two arguments one of which is simple.
-She got stabbed and the damage from that mean she couldn't walk or fly and magic couldn't fix it.
And the other which makes a bunch of assumptions like...
-She got stabbed but it what REALLY happened was it started some bizarre chain reaction that somehow magnified the damage and resulted in a secondary injury that rendered the major trauma almost moot.

I'll tend to take the first.
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Old 2007-09-08, 13:13   Link #99
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Did it say it was acutally broken?
Nobody knows. However, it seems they could heal sprains quite well (see Ep1), so I'd guess it was something a step up.

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If not I’d acutally just argue it wasn’t, otherwise it should have been set.
Maybe it was set for the healing but they had gone over that phase.

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Magic regeneration boost or not that would have sped bone knitting we set broken bones for a reason. A sling is more what you’d use for a bad strain or something. Even if it was "broken" breaks range from "little nick on the bone" to "Pointy shards jutting out of your arm." and if broken his clearly looked to be at the less severe end.
AFAIK, even relatively simple fractures take more than a week to heal normally.

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I don't think we know enough about this area of magic to make that call, we do know for instance though that even things like diet can effect a mages performance, so clearly magic use has a physical element to it and if diet can be a factor major horrible bodily trauma surely could as well.
But considering she was nearly S at the time, it'd have taken some major crimping - not just a suboptimum setting to render her completely incapable of flight.

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Also I think you’d have issues trying to control flight with wings mounting on your ankles when you can’t feel you’re legs… So maybe she could technically have flown, but not with nearly enough control to be safe without use of her legs.
1) There are other forms of flight without use of Wings on Legs - that's Nanoha's trademark but I see no reason if that became impossible she can't use something else.
2) That's where the Alternate Control Circuit came in. Hayate was moving around real well the moment she powered up in Nanoha A's.
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Old 2007-09-08, 13:51   Link #100
Tk3997
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Nobody knows. However, it seems they could heal sprains quite well (see Ep1), so I'd guess it was something a step up.
Well then it's even more up in the air, but still the fact was that despite the fairly trivial nature of this trauma, magic wasn't able to poof it away, they're was a noticeable recovery time.

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Maybe it was set for the healing but they had gone over that phase.
Possible, but a cast would acutally probably be easier to draw then a sling... I don’t see why they wouldn’t have done it if they wanted to make the bone appear broken would have been far less ambiguous. Though on that note the sling they had him in was a pretty ramshackle looking thing, sure as hell didn’t look like what any competent hospital or even ambulance would have.

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AFAIK, even relatively simple fractures take more than a week to heal normally.
Healing time can vary wildly, a mild fracture that doesn’t totally snap the bone can heal in as little as 2 or 3 weeks with no outside aid (My ten year old brother for instance fell out of a loft bed and had a minor break in the bone in his forearm, it healed in around 3 weeks in a cast). A series of breaks in multiple areas of the same bone though could take MONTHS to heal, with surgery. So without having some detailed knowledge of the extent of the fracture (if any) it’s really impossible to give even an estimated healing time. He bounced back fast true, but he’s still a child and they heal faster to start with still he might have gotten some magical aid, but if so it might well having only increased the healing rate by 2 or maybe 3 times at the outside, possibly less if he was down say a week and a half or something.


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But considering she was nearly S at the time, it'd have taken some major crimping - not just a suboptimum setting to render her completely incapable of flight.
Well I didn't say totally incapable, just incapable of controlled flight.

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1) There are other forms of flight without use of Wings on Legs - that's Nanoha's trademark but I see no reason if that became impossible she can't use something else.
2) That's where the Alternate Control Circuit came in. Hayate was moving around real well the moment she powered up in Nanoha A's.
Well even with the first option she'd have needed to learn an entirely new system, who knows how long that could take and even if she COULD do that, without her legs she'd still never be returned to service so she may have been more focus on getting use of legs back then eve bothering to fly as without them the other point would have been moot.

As for the second but that was a very complex situation, more so since the thing that “powered her up” was basiclly what was destroying her body to begin with. I’m not sure we can draw much information about normal magic/body interactions from this incident as it’s just seems so wildly outside the norm.
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