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Old 2007-09-20, 20:12   Link #161
Avatar_notADV
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If you're looking for a historical parallel, look at tank development.

Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate are tanks. They're effectively invulnerable to the run-of-the-mill enemy forces. They can swat the hell out of large numbers of inferior enemies. They are highly mobile and can be adapted to shock tactics. Even relatively powerful enemy units aren't capable of stopping them. The presence of a small number of them can turn an otherwise-deadlocked battle decisively. They're only available in limited numbers and you don't know how to mass-produce them (yet!)

The TSAB can take one lesson from this encounter and become Germany (though hopefully without the pogroms and other associated unpleasantness, huh) or it can take the other lesson and become France.

There are positive things that the TSAB can and should take away from the encounter. The first, obviously, should be an increased emphasis on recruiting efforts. An elite mage is worth much, much more than one of normal strength; securing the services and loyalty of people with the potential to become those mages should be the absolute number one priority of TSAB recruiting (not only does it improve their strength, but it also denies them to a potential enemy... not that we've seen any of those in Nanoha.) We know they're not common, but they're not fantastically rare either - Nanoha and Hayate were practically neighbors, after all. It wouldn't kill the TSAB to put in a few recruiting stations and run around shouting "Hey, can anybody hear me?!" at the top of their psychic lungs, and it just might pay off big-time down the road. (Hell, their capital just got saved because Yuuno bothered to shout for help ten years ago!)

Second, their whole training system needs reworking. Tea only ranks a B - theoretically EVERY mage in the aerial corps has more power than she does. Yet she took on three Numbers and a pack of drones and came out the victor! Criminy, if a few months of training with Nanoha can make a little girl able to do that, what could they do instituting similar training with people who had high talent in the first place? Or rather, what the hell are they doing wrong, when a rookie with moderate talent and a stiff training regimen can down a threat that dozens of highly-talented and well-equipped mages can't?

(Then again, are they well-equipped? Maybe the TSAB is a lot more corrupt than we know?)

Finally, one thing occurred to me. HOW THE HELL did they not know where Jail was? Okay, okay, subterranean base, only a few Numbers, I can believe that. But he's got a friggin' army of drones there. Not just a few, but literally hundreds and thousands, enough where he can throw away dozens of them again and again. Forget the lil' Jewel Seeds inside them, where's he getting the metal? He'd need a huge logistical train to have managed to manufacture that many of the suckers. Wouldn't THAT have been easy to track?
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Old 2007-09-20, 20:45   Link #162
Mirificus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBM View Post
So? There is nothing to suggest that they need a real military.
That is strange. I can't really think of any police forces that are expected or have the ability to contest air superiority, protect sea lanes or perform amphibious assaults on bases in the middle of the ocean.

Quote:
TSAB is an overglorified, under trained, bureaucratic police force. A product of an interplanetary utopia that has no use or desire for a real military. Good at stopping that lone crazy researcher or that lost logica smuggler, but completely outmaneuvered by any large group using basic tactics.
The US is separated from its enemies by oceans and hasn't been attacked by a "real military" on its own territory since 1941. Does the US need an army?

Have you thought of the legal, moral and strategic implications of relying only on police forces for foreign policy?

Spoiler:

Now, back to this:

The exact nature of RF6's training is a red herring. The fundamental problem is whatever they have been training for, that training hasn't enabled them to do perform any missions effectively nor has it developed capable leaders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, what a police force needs to handle is Security with some offensives. What we are shown demonstrates that TSAB's offensive planning (Ep21, of course, but also Ep24, where a failure of flank security apparently caused the wipeout of all of Zest's old unit) and security planning (Ep7, Ep17), as well as meeting engagement (Ep11-12) is lacking.

So, if you can't attack, you can't defend/security and you can't handle meeting engagements .. well, what's left.
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Old 2007-09-20, 21:35   Link #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
If you're looking for a historical parallel, look at tank development.

Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate are tanks. They're effectively invulnerable to the run-of-the-mill enemy forces. They can swat the hell out of large numbers of inferior enemies. They are highly mobile and can be adapted to shock tactics. Even relatively powerful enemy units aren't capable of stopping them. The presence of a small number of them can turn an otherwise-deadlocked battle decisively. They're only available in limited numbers and you don't know how to mass-produce them (yet!)
I think the tank comparison is apt. It is pretty much how I've been thinking of the three Aces, Signum and Vita. The combination of firepower, mobility and protection is very tank-like.

Quote:
The TSAB can take one lesson from this encounter and become Germany (though hopefully without the pogroms and other associated unpleasantness, huh) or it can take the other lesson and become France.
As with France and Germany, the TSAB's fundamental problems aren't inferior equipment or being outnumbered. Rather, as I've been trying to point out, the failures are with its leadership, training and doctrine. One of the notable things about the Wehrmacht was ability to reliably train its junior officers and NCOs into effective combat leaders. The TSAB is pretty much the exact opposite in that regard and is on track to continue doing so.

Quote:
There are positive things that the TSAB can and should take away from the encounter. The first, obviously, should be an increased emphasis on recruiting efforts. An elite mage is worth much, much more than one of normal strength; securing the services and loyalty of people with the potential to become those mages should be the absolute number one priority of TSAB recruiting (not only does it improve their strength, but it also denies them to a potential enemy... not that we've seen any of those in Nanoha.) We know they're not common, but they're not fantastically rare either - Nanoha and Hayate were practically neighbors, after all. It wouldn't kill the TSAB to put in a few recruiting stations and run around shouting "Hey, can anybody hear me?!" at the top of their psychic lungs, and it just might pay off big-time down the road. (Hell, their capital just got saved because Yuuno bothered to shout for help ten years ago!)
I can't really think of any data with regards to TSAB recruiting practices. I don't think we've seen any recruited outside of direct involvement.

Quote:
Second, their whole training system needs reworking. Tea only ranks a B - theoretically EVERY mage in the aerial corps has more power than she does. Yet she took on three Numbers and a pack of drones and came out the victor! Criminy, if a few months of training with Nanoha can make a little girl able to do that, what could they do instituting similar training with people who had high talent in the first place? Or rather, what the hell are they doing wrong, when a rookie with moderate talent and a stiff training regimen can down a threat that dozens of highly-talented and well-equipped mages can't?
I keep on getting the feeling that Teana turned out well in spite of Nanoha's training rather than because of it. Look at how the other three turned out. They've been shown to be rather unreliable in combat.

Quote:
(Then again, are they well-equipped? Maybe the TSAB is a lot more corrupt than we know?)
I wouldn't assume that in the absence of evidence. "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Quote:
Finally, one thing occurred to me. HOW THE HELL did they not know where Jail was? Okay, okay, subterranean base, only a few Numbers, I can believe that. But he's got a friggin' army of drones there. Not just a few, but literally hundreds and thousands, enough where he can throw away dozens of them again and again. Forget the lil' Jewel Seeds inside them, where's he getting the metal? He'd need a huge logistical train to have managed to manufacture that many of the suckers. Wouldn't THAT have been easy to track?
That is an interesting point. Missing that would be a huge intelligence failure for the TSAB.
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Old 2007-09-20, 23:03   Link #164
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
That is an interesting point. Missing that would be a huge intelligence failure for the TSAB.
I'll be working on a fic dealing with past TSAB intel shortcomings and their ramifications, to be posted on the fanfic section.
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Old 2007-09-20, 23:07   Link #165
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
That is strange. I can't really think of any police forces that are expected or have the ability to contest air superiority, protect sea lanes or perform amphibious assaults on bases in the middle of the ocean.
The problem here is that you are too stuck on stereotypically Terran definitions and boundaries for "police", "paramilitary" and "military". More on that below.

Quote:
The US is separated from its enemies by oceans and hasn't been attacked by a "real military" on its own territory since 1941. Does the US need an army?
Actually, before 1914 or so, they didn't think they needed an army, so IIRC the US had like 100,000 men in its army which had to be uber-expanded into the WWI army. The current "standing army" is a post-WWII / Cold War thing.

[quote]
Spoiler:


1) It is not clear whether there are significant worlds known to the TSAB that are outside its jurisdiction. There is no evidence of an enemy bloc or any such thing.
2) Technically, if you have a military and you do most of the stuff you just put in your list in another world without their approval, it is called an Act of War.
3) You shouldn't be too hung up on Terran words like "Police". It is an approximate analogue - their definition are somewhat different from ours (for example, whatever you use to describe the TSAB must allow for the canon fact that they do clandestinely operate in unadministered worlds like Earth). If they were really police in our sense, they won't even be doing firefighting, nor would they be doing nature conservation and research in out of the way uninahbited worlds.
4) If they are military, on the other hand, then they aren't supposed to operate inside TSAB "territory". Typically, matters inside such as catching criminals is the responsiblility of the police, or paramilitary forces from a "Interior Ministry" equivalent, not the full blown army.
5) The best way to describe the TSAB is paramilitary. They are the police, firefighters, military, and the nature conservation / exploration corps, yet they are none of these at the same time.
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Old 2007-09-20, 23:48   Link #166
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
1) It is not clear whether there are significant worlds known to the TSAB that are outside its jurisdiction. There is no evidence of an enemy bloc or any such thing.
Granted

Quote:
2) Technically, if you have a military and you do most of the stuff you just put in your list in another world without their approval, it is called an Act of War.
Without prior agreements, unless there is no recognized government, you would be violating that nation's sovereignty regardless of how you label the unit carrying it out.

However if you care about your citizens then you do what you need to do. There are a lot of examples of hostage rescue of citizens from neutral or hostile countries like Operation Thunderbolt in Entebbe and Lufthansa 181 in Mogadishu. They were carried out by elite light infantry units of the kind whose training BBM disagrees with. I have no idea how he plans to skip light infantry training to training for raids when those raids need operators who excel at light infantry skill sets. Specializing in raids is the exact opposite of a panacea when a unit already has inadequate training.

Quote:
3) You shouldn't be too hung up on Terran words like "Police". It is an approximate analogue - their definition are somewhat different from ours (for example, whatever you use to describe the TSAB must allow for the canon fact that they do clandestinely operate in unadministered worlds like Earth). If they were really police in our sense, they won't even be doing firefighting, nor would they be doing nature conservation and research in out of the way uninahbited worlds.
I was playing devil's advocate in that last post. Personally, I think the differences in this context are more semantic than not. The important thing is that, regardless of labeling, when RF6 or the TSAB are compelled to carry out missions like episode 21 or the assault on Precia's base, they ignore military logic at their peril and by doing thus, place the entire mission at risk. Claiming that the TSAB is strictly either a police or military force is both disingenuous and a false dichotomy.

Quote:
4) If they are military, on the other hand, then they aren't supposed to operate inside TSAB "territory". Typically, matters inside such as catching criminals is the responsiblility of the police, or paramilitary forces from a "Interior Ministry" equivalent, not the full blown army.
There's no reason to assume "posse comitatus" exists for Midchilda.

Quote:
5) The best way to describe the TSAB is paramilitary. They are the police, firefighters, military, and the nature conservation / exploration corps, yet they are none of these at the same time.
They're a jack of all trades and master of none. They're expected to perform both police and military functions, even ones that would normally be in opposition to each other, and they have the training for neither.
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Old 2007-09-21, 00:14   Link #167
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV
Finally, one thing occurred to me. HOW THE HELL did they not know where Jail was? Okay, okay, subterranean base, only a few Numbers, I can believe that. But he's got a friggin' army of drones there. He'd need a huge logistical train to have managed to manufacture that many of the suckers. Wouldn't THAT have been easy to track?
I think I know part of the answer to that, aside from the cover provided by Reguis and the High Council. The TSAB seems to have a blind spot regarding non-magical weapons. If those drones used magical weapons, you can be sure it would have sent alarm bells ringing throughout the Bureau. Instead, all the components for their beam attacks were probably listed as "cutting tools" while their hover and flight systems were "transport equipment". Use the old trick of breaking down large orders into many small orders, and anyone looking for magical weapons would never see anything out of the ordinary.
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Old 2007-09-21, 02:12   Link #168
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
That is strange. I can't really think of any police forces that are expected or have the ability to contest air superiority, protect sea lanes or perform amphibious assaults on bases in the middle of the ocean.
I think that you are looking at this in the wrong way.

For TSAB the universe is a country, and each world a city. And the Ships are swat cars. The only people not a part of TSAB are primitives that live in the forrest unaware of any other people.
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Old 2007-09-21, 02:16   Link #169
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Second, their whole training system needs reworking.
True

Quote:
Tea only ranks a B - theoretically EVERY mage in the aerial corps has more power than she does. Yet she took on three Numbers and a pack of drones and came out the victor! Criminy, if a few months of training with Nanoha can make a little girl able to do that, what could they do instituting similar training with people who had high talent in the first place? Or rather, what the hell are they doing wrong, when a rookie with moderate talent and a stiff training regimen can down a threat that dozens of highly-talented and well-equipped mages can't?
Well those mages aren't AMF trained and use standard equipment. Teana wouldn't have made it if it wasn't for her custom weapons and AMF training.
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Old 2007-09-21, 02:50   Link #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBM View Post
I think that you are looking at this in the wrong way.

For TSAB the universe is a country, and each world a city. And the Ships are swat cars. The only people not a part of TSAB are primitives that live in the forrest unaware of any other people.
How does that absolve them of having basic competence it at least something. So far, we've established they basically don't have Attack, Defense, Meeting Engagement, SIGINT or HUMINT. What do they have...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBM View Post
True

Well those mages aren't AMF trained and use standard equipment. Teana wouldn't have made it if it wasn't for her custom weapons and AMF training.
In other words, they have poor training and equipment.
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Old 2007-09-21, 06:05   Link #171
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I can answer both with this:
Their training and weapons are enough for their normal tasks (policing lost logica). they never had the need for improvement.
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Old 2007-09-21, 10:24   Link #172
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In other words, they had been lucky all these years, or maybe they had horribly low standards for success - even counting that the 97th is unadministered and nearly unknown to the Midchildran voting population, resorting to blasting over 100 million sentients tells you how low the standard of "success" is in their dictionary.

I bet StrikerS would have been called a success as well, despite the proportion of city dismantled and how close to utter disaster it all is.

And whatever happened to Eternal Readiness or striving for self-improvement in peacetime!
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Old 2007-09-22, 10:30   Link #173
Mirificus
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Let's get back to more interesting discussion:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
If you're looking for a historical parallel, look at tank development.

Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate are tanks. They're effectively invulnerable to the run-of-the-mill enemy forces. They can swat the hell out of large numbers of inferior enemies. They are highly mobile and can be adapted to shock tactics. Even relatively powerful enemy units aren't capable of stopping them. The presence of a small number of them can turn an otherwise-deadlocked battle decisively. They're only available in limited numbers and you don't know how to mass-produce them (yet!)

The TSAB can take one lesson from this encounter and become Germany (though hopefully without the pogroms and other associated unpleasantness, huh) or it can take the other lesson and become France.

There are positive things that the TSAB can and should take away from the encounter. The first, obviously, should be an increased emphasis on recruiting efforts. An elite mage is worth much, much more than one of normal strength; securing the services and loyalty of people with the potential to become those mages should be the absolute number one priority of TSAB recruiting (not only does it improve their strength, but it also denies them to a potential enemy... not that we've seen any of those in Nanoha.) We know they're not common, but they're not fantastically rare either - Nanoha and Hayate were practically neighbors, after all. It wouldn't kill the TSAB to put in a few recruiting stations and run around shouting "Hey, can anybody hear me?!" at the top of their psychic lungs, and it just might pay off big-time down the road. (Hell, their capital just got saved because Yuuno bothered to shout for help ten years ago!)

Second, their whole training system needs reworking. Tea only ranks a B - theoretically EVERY mage in the aerial corps has more power than she does. Yet she took on three Numbers and a pack of drones and came out the victor! Criminy, if a few months of training with Nanoha can make a little girl able to do that, what could they do instituting similar training with people who had high talent in the first place? Or rather, what the hell are they doing wrong, when a rookie with moderate talent and a stiff training regimen can down a threat that dozens of highly-talented and well-equipped mages can't?

(Then again, are they well-equipped? Maybe the TSAB is a lot more corrupt than we know?)

Finally, one thing occurred to me. HOW THE HELL did they not know where Jail was? Okay, okay, subterranean base, only a few Numbers, I can believe that. But he's got a friggin' army of drones there. Not just a few, but literally hundreds and thousands, enough where he can throw away dozens of them again and again. Forget the lil' Jewel Seeds inside them, where's he getting the metal? He'd need a huge logistical train to have managed to manufacture that many of the suckers. Wouldn't THAT have been easy to track?
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
I think the tank comparison is apt. It is pretty much how I've been thinking of the three Aces, Signum and Vita. The combination of firepower, mobility and protection is very tank-like. However, they have superior mobility, as in addition to their much greater maximum speeds, their speeds isn't affected by terrain and they have the option of vertical envelopment.

As with France compared with Germany in 1940, the TSAB's fundamental problems aren't inferior equipment or being outnumbered. Rather, as I've been trying to point out, the failures are with its leadership, training and doctrine. One of the notable things about the Wehrmacht was ability to reliably train its junior officers and NCOs into effective combat leaders. The TSAB is pretty much the exact opposite in that regard and is on track to continue doing so.

I keep on getting the feeling that Teana turned out well in spite of Nanoha's training rather than because of it. Look at how the other three turned out. They've been shown to be rather unreliable in combat.
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Old 2007-09-22, 22:07   Link #174
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
The TSAB can take one lesson from this encounter and become Germany (though hopefully without the pogroms and other associated unpleasantness, huh) or it can take the other lesson and become France.
It is already France. Quite frankly, given their 150-year history, they'd view this incident, like all others, through a lens. As I've mentioned before to Mirificius, the most likely outcome is that they actually decide the current battle verifies their doctrine, and would make no changes to it. We'd be lucky if they incorporate AMF training into subsequent training criteria.

Quote:
There are positive things that the TSAB can and should take away from the encounter. The first, obviously, should be an increased emphasis on recruiting efforts.
Not having seen the recruiting efforts, we can't really comment on it.

Quote:
An elite mage is worth much, much more than one of normal strength; securing the services and loyalty of people with the potential to become those mages should be the absolute number one priority of TSAB recruiting (not only does it improve their strength, but it also denies them to a potential enemy... not that we've seen any of those in Nanoha.)
All we can say is that from the limited information at hand, they know that. In fact, if not for Lindy's intervention, Nanoha (and by extension Hayate) will have been literally abducted from Earth because TSAB regs say that mages of their strength cannot stay on an Unadministered World (ref: the Nanoha novel). Ostensibly, 1 in 20 mages is an AAA (presumably they meant Headquarters or Navy, because there's no sign of this in the Ground Forces), and that's a high concentration relative to the general population, so they are presumably doing their best in effort. As for technique, well, hadn't seen it, can't comment.

Quote:
We know they're not common, but they're not fantastically rare either - Nanoha and Hayate were practically neighbors, after all.
Actually, two people not a statistical sample make. They could be the 2 over-S talents in all Earth, or there could be one in every town. Remember the last time the TSAB got a S-ranked mage (Graham), it was decades ago. Canonically, the three are rare mutations.

Quote:
It wouldn't kill the TSAB to put in a few recruiting stations and run around shouting "Hey, can anybody hear me?!" at the top of their psychic lungs, and it just might pay off big-time down the road. (Hell, their capital just got saved because Yuuno bothered to shout for help ten years ago!)
Oh, cool. First of all, it hardly takes a AAA or better to hear that, so you'd bother lots of people. Yunno (and perhaps Earth) was lucky it was Nanoha who heard him - another person would be like, "You butthole. How dare you interrupt my game of Command and Conquer with your stupid telepathy! (Maybe if I ignore him, he'd quit...)" Or maybe the shock of a telepathic communication will cause him to run to the psychiatric hospital.

To be fair, Regius and the High Council had the right idea - they are probably never going to recruit enough elite mages, so making them or close equivalents is the only way. Imagine companies of sentoukijin with a human leader (though the way the TSAB is going, the sentoukijin are likely better at tactics than most of TSAB's officers). Their mistake was keeping Scarlietti around for too long.

As for ammorality, what ammorality? Is it more ammoral than sending Cs and Ds to die in droves on the battlefield to superior enemies?

Quote:
Second, their whole training system needs reworking. Tea only ranks a B - theoretically EVERY mage in the aerial corps has more power than she does. Yet she took on three Numbers and a pack of drones and came out the victor! Criminy, if a few months of training with Nanoha can make a little girl able to do that, what could they do instituting similar training with people who had high talent in the first place? Or rather, what the hell are they doing wrong, when a rookie with moderate talent and a stiff training regimen can down a threat that dozens of highly-talented and well-equipped mages can't?
Actually, Tea had much better equipment than the regular aerial mage units. But the real thing that bought her the victory was her talent - tactical thinking.

These guys are Bs, yes, but that's a reflection of their low magical potential. In fighting talent, they may be top class. They are literally the cream of the Bs, and in certain circumstances, that may be their edge against a mediocre A or even AA that relies on his power. (Disclaimer: All identifications of "cream" and "mediocre" are by TSAB standards)

Could their training be improved, though? Definitely. It was frankly pathetic to see those aerial mages jerking as they shoot in midair.

Quote:
Finally, one thing occurred to me. HOW THE HELL did they not know where Jail was? Okay, okay, subterranean base, only a few Numbers, I can believe that. But he's got a friggin' army of drones there. Not just a few, but literally hundreds and thousands, enough where he can throw away dozens of them again and again. Forget the lil' Jewel Seeds inside them, where's he getting the metal? He'd need a huge logistical train to have managed to manufacture that many of the suckers. Wouldn't THAT have been easy to track?
The problem is how that would compare with the total output of the administered worlds, would it? Considering how many worlds there are, a division of drones may still only represent a miniscule fraction of output.

He should still have been discovered the moment he started to use his "radio", though. He was transmitting in a mountain!
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Old 2007-09-23, 17:00   Link #175
Mirificus
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It is already France. Quite frankly, given their 150-year history, they'd view this incident, like all others, through a lens. As I've mentioned before to Mirificius, the most likely outcome is that they actually decide the current battle verifies their doctrine, and would make no changes to it. We'd be lucky if they incorporate AMF training into subsequent training criteria.
The TSAB's inability to consistently draw the right lessons from its experience and its ineptitude at training its junior officers and NCOs into effective leaders is completely unlike the Reichswehr/early-war Werhmacht. Even if it had no other combat experience whatsoever, the collective experience of the first two seasons alone could have gone a long way to developing effective TTPs and basic tactical doctrine, particularly since all of the combatants did in fact joined the TSAB. After A's, all of the combatants and staff that were involved were easily accessible to be interviewed and write reports about their observations and experiences upon which to form a basis for rigorous analysis.
After the Cradle battle, should have a basis to start working on tactical operational doctrine at the operational level.

The TSAB can't develop appropriate doctrine and training from its experiences if it keeps drawing its conclusions first and then selectively looking over the evidence to justify them. Its theories are useless without sufficient testing and revision to match its observations.

First the TSAB needs to take the study of tactics seriously. It needs to have a central body responsible for both doctrine and training and it needs to have authority to match. If one already exists, it needs to be trashed because it is worse than useless.

The Reichswehr equivalent had its own section within the new Truppenamnt (General Staff in everything but name, established in 1919) which included a T-2, the Organization Section responsible for drafting organization and equipment tables and T-4, the Training Section, responsible for supervising training throughout the army.
Quote:
Although branch inspectorates did most of the routine work and training and compiling manuals, all training programs, manuals, and materials had to be approved by the T-4. The Training Section would ensure that the military training and doctrine developed by the branch inspectorates would conform to the unified operational doctrine and organization established by the T-1 and T-2. The Training Section of the Truppenamnt also had direct responsibility for training General Staff officers, as well as for creating and supervising the armywise testing program for officers and NCOs
This is what the Reichswehr started doing immediately after the war:
Quote:
"It is absolutely necessary to put the experience of the war in a broad light and collect this experience while the impressions won on the battlefield are still fresh and a major proportion of the experienced officers are still in leading positions."
...
The officers named to committees were to write, "short, concise studies on the newly-gained experiences of the war and consider the following points:
a). What new situations arose in the war that had not been considered before the war?
b). How effective were our pre-war views in dealing with the above situations?
c). What new guidelines have been developed from the use of new weaponry in the war?
d). Which new problems put forward by the war have not yet found a solution?"

Von Seeckt's directive follows with a list of the fifty-seven-different aspects of the war to be examined, ranging from military justice and questions of troop morale to flame throwers, river crossings, and the military weather service. Military leadership, from leadership of an army group to large artillery formations, took up the largest single part of the plan (seven committees). Each inspectorate was also expected to assemble and analyze the recent tactical experiences of its branch.
Mountain and armored warfare each got their own committees, headed by officers (a general and a captain) with current and relevant experience. Just over a hundred officers were appointed to the committees and another three hundred joined as practically all of the inspectorates and department of the Defense Ministry was expected to work on the studies.

After those studies were completed, there was still much work to be done,
Quote:
The Training Section was given responsibility for collecting and reviewing the work of the committees. T-4 was ordered to recommend comiitee changes regarding the opening of new subjects of study and the appointment of additional committee officers. T-4 was also to edit the reports for possible use in army manuals and regulations. During 1920 the Training Section would initiate a further twenty-nine studies of subjects not covered by von Seeckt's directive of December 1, 1919. The Training Section appointed mostly its own officers to carry out these [new] studies but solicited contributions from retired officers and some officers outside the T-4 as well. Some studies were specific and tactical and thus more suitable for direct application as sections of the new tactical manuals, such as "How Should Tactical Units Be Organized for Mountain Warfare?" "Should Supply Trains Be Placed under Divisional Control or under Higher Headquarters?" Others were on the more general subjects, such as "The Economy and the Two-Front War."

At the same time, the Air Service officers within the Truppenamt organized a similar program for assessing the aerial warfare experience citing von Seeckt's directive as their guideline for asking and developing solutions. Special committees were formed, and over one hundred airmen, including the senior Air Service commanders and a higher proportion of the former squadron commanders, would contribute studies.

Counting the original committees, the additional officers who conducted studies for the Training Section, and the efforts of the Air Service, by mid-1920 over five hundred of the most experienced German officers were involved in a program to mold their war experiences into a system of modern tactics and military organization.
The Germans took the postwar study of tactics very seriously. The Truppenamt assigned many of its best officers to its tactical doctrine studies. Why the TSAB doesn't take advantage its own experienced captains is a mystery. The TSAB has a very long road to go if it wants to adopt the German approach.

Quote:
Imagine companies of sentoukijin with a human leader (though the way the TSAB is going, the sentoukijin are likely better at tactics than most of TSAB's officers). Their mistake was keeping Scarlietti around for too long.
The numbers are probably better at tactics because they haven't studied with the TSAB and thus haven't been learning the wrong pre-conceived notions year after year.

Quote:
Actually, Tea had much better equipment than the regular aerial mage units. But the real thing that bought her the victory was her talent - tactical thinking.
Her talent seemed to be all her own. I'm sure Teana learned a lot WRT to magic-use but Nanoha didn't really seem to help much otherwise with her professional development.

Did Teana turn out well because of or in spite of Nanoha? Four is a small sample size to work with to judge Nanoha's effectiveness as an instructor but the failures do begin to add up. From what we've seen of the Forwards in combat, the TSAB's training standards must be particularly low or Nanoha may not be such a great instructor.

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The problem is how that would compare with the total output of the administered worlds, would it? Considering how many worlds there are, a division of drones may still only represent a miniscule fraction of output.
The problem there is the TSAB is weak enough for that kind of output to be a significant threat nor does it have the intelligence resources to recognize such threats as they're beginning to develop.

Quote:
He should still have been discovered the moment he started to use his "radio", though. He was transmitting in a mountain!
SIGINT

It seems like we can draw a couple more conclusions from episode 26. The TSAB makes uses its manpower oddly. Just look at Alto and Vice. From what we've seen, Alto is the better pilot yet she was used as an easily replaced communications officer. Vice is the best sniper in the unit but instead of giving him psychological counseling, they used him as an average pilot.

We also have more evidence WRT the TSAB Navy now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBM View Post
The ships mostly serves as a mode of transport and if the mages don't win, then they blow the lost logica up. They seem to have the wrong weapons or lack of them for any real military action.
The primary role of the TSAB Navy during the Cradle battle was to destroy the Cradle. There was never any question of it transporting additional mages to engage the Cradle. They never even planned to send Chrono in as a mage. The fleet was to destroy the Cradle regardless of whether the mages had "won" or not and that is exactly what it did in episode 26. The maximum effective range of the weapons the ships used to engage the Cradle is unclear but at least six ships were equipped with them and their firepower was more than adequate to destroy the Cradle in a single volley despite all of the AMF.
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Last edited by Mirificus; 2007-09-23 at 17:46.
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Old 2007-09-23, 18:56   Link #176
BBM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
The primary role of the TSAB Navy during the Cradle battle was to destroy the Cradle. There was never any question of it transporting additional mages to engage the Cradle. They never even planned to send Chrono in as a mage. The fleet was to destroy the Cradle regardless of whether the mages had "won" or not and that is exactly what it did in episode 26. The maximum effective range of the weapons the ships used to engage the Cradle is unclear but at least six ships were equipped with them and their firepower was more than adequate to destroy the Cradle in a single volley despite all of the AMF.
Read the quote, I am talking about the design itself and how the TSAB uses it. The cannon is a last ditch option. And will be used on things that are just too dangerous to remain in this universe.
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Old 2007-09-23, 19:43   Link #177
Mirificus
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Originally Posted by BBM View Post
Read the quote, I am talking about the design itself and how the TSAB uses it. The cannon is a last ditch option. And will be used on things that are just too dangerous to remain in this universe.
I read your post. It is a conclusion. Would you care to provide the evidence?

More importantly it does nothing to answer this,
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
In other words, they had been lucky all these years, or maybe they had horribly low standards for success - even counting that the 97th is unadministered and nearly unknown to the Midchildran voting population, resorting to blasting over 100 million sentients tells you how low the standard of "success" is in their dictionary.

I bet StrikerS would have been called a success as well, despite the proportion of city dismantled and how close to utter disaster it all is.

And whatever happened to Eternal Readiness or striving for self-improvement in peacetime!
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Old 2007-09-23, 20:48   Link #178
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One thing the Germans had to their advantage was the 200 years of proven battle knowledge to ground their combat thinking and analysis, while the TSAB has who knows what behind it. The Prussian Staff system first arouse due to the near annihilation of the Prussian forces during Jena and its aftermath, which necessitated the total reconstitution of the Prussian Army. They were very fortunate to have military reformers such as Scharnhorst and Gneisenau to oversee changes, but the closest person to that I can think of in the TSAB is Chrono.
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Old 2007-09-24, 00:50   Link #179
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
I read your post. It is a conclusion. Would you care to provide the evidence?
There's Seasons 1 and 2. You might notice that Asura had to be specially outfitted with the Arcenciel in response to a clear threat. Even with Chrono's fleet, according to you, there were only 6 ships seen firing (I'd check Ep26 tonight for myself when I get home). IIRC, there were more than 6 ships in Chrono's fleet, so this means that not every ship was armed.
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Old 2007-09-24, 02:06   Link #180
BBM
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
I read your post. It is a conclusion. Would you care to provide the evidence?
What Arkhangelsk said.


Quote:
More importantly it does nothing to answer this,
About eternal readiness or striving for self-improvement? Well those are concepts that not every culture has or uses in the same way we do.
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